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On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers.
I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was).
Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had.
Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been.
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On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been.
Lol Maru can’t even hold Flash or Serral’s jockstraps. Their dominance over their peers are legendary
When Flash / Serral loses do we ever hear excuses after excuses like we do when Maru get stomps over and over? (Jet lag, ping, saving build, no practice, not taking it seriously, bracket rigged, Zerg Imba, toss A move, no rest after a long series in the previous round, and my personal favourite “injuries lol “ )
It’s quite comical to even have Maru mentioned in the same sentence as Flash / Serral. Maru is literally like Neeb, dominant his own region but gets outclassed outside it
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Serral is most definitely the closest comparison to Flash. I think all he needs is that EWC win and then next year play Protoss and win some tournament with Protoss as the only Protoss in the top 10 :D
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On June 05 2024 21:16 Agh wrote:Can't really compare since it's just different times as well as games. The present will always hold more weight since the players are just going to be better. To reach someone like Happy(war3) or Serral(sc2)'s dominance shows extreme dedication and ability. For instance Moon always got the nod even though people like Lyn made compelling runs at times. But since Happy has cemented himself as the goat even if he stops playing or completely falls off it is very unlikely anyone would surpass him, but not impossible. Serral is probably as close as you're going to get. Sc2 is just such a brutally difficult game, the consistency he exhibits is pretty mind blowing. The only real challengers he has is Maru and someone like Life had they remained. Given the time that each game has been out relative to their dominance is a good metric to bolster the argument. Then again why ponder anything you could always just refer to a 'goat' list to get some super fried takes 
Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3?
If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European
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I think Life is still the closest contender for flash of sc2 (had he not match fixed obviously)
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On June 05 2024 21:46 Mizenhauer wrote:
Mvp is probably the closest analogy to Flash. Both played during a time where the best players were all in korea and both outperformed their peers by a large amount.
Similar wrist/hand issues too
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United States1845 Posts
On June 07 2024 02:51 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 21:46 Mizenhauer wrote:
Mvp is probably the closest analogy to Flash. Both played during a time where the best players were all in korea and both outperformed their peers by a large amount. Similar wrist/hand issues too
It's funny that Mvp, who was an excellent BW player, immediately switched to SC2. Mvp had his own reasons and the decision paid off. But, when it comes to the less talented and successful players who transitioned in 2010, I wonder how much their final decision was affected by the fact that they knew they weren't going to beat BW Flash no matter how hard they worked.
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Russian Federation390 Posts
On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:
The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc.
Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military
Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose?
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On June 07 2024 00:58 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 21:16 Agh wrote:Can't really compare since it's just different times as well as games. The present will always hold more weight since the players are just going to be better. To reach someone like Happy(war3) or Serral(sc2)'s dominance shows extreme dedication and ability. For instance Moon always got the nod even though people like Lyn made compelling runs at times. But since Happy has cemented himself as the goat even if he stops playing or completely falls off it is very unlikely anyone would surpass him, but not impossible. Serral is probably as close as you're going to get. Sc2 is just such a brutally difficult game, the consistency he exhibits is pretty mind blowing. The only real challengers he has is Maru and someone like Life had they remained. Given the time that each game has been out relative to their dominance is a good metric to bolster the argument. Then again why ponder anything you could always just refer to a 'goat' list to get some super fried takes Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3? If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European
He is dominating the period you exclude aka a good 7 years with the resurgence of the chinese scene which made the wc3 scene more interesting and arguably more competitive than the 2009-10 area. (The time when finals were played in bo3 lol)
He competed against players like infi, th000, lawliet, moon, 120, Life (new players btw), Lyn, focus, Fly100, chaemiko, fortitude. All that with 200 ping so yeah, that's a pretty extreme domination.
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On June 07 2024 03:25 RandomPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:
The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc.
Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose?
teamhouses disbanding, military service and the ever decreasing GSL prize pool
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France12781 Posts
On June 07 2024 03:25 RandomPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:
The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc.
Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose?
They were scared of the Finnish Phenom stealing their job, wives and food!
But more seriously, each pro gamer have their reasons for trying to keep playing after their military, or not.
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On June 07 2024 05:42 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 03:25 RandomPlayer wrote:On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote:
The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc.
Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose? teamhouses disbanding, military service and the ever decreasing GSL prize pool
That, plus the game was slowly settling into its final form, so the passion might be gone for more and more pros. Some also might have just certain goals and decided to move on.
For Korea specifically another big reason is the regionlock. Before, effectively koreans who were good, but not good enough to consistently make deep runs into GSL could avoid the competition and farm money outside, even with the chance of reaching the World Finals. With that gone, the likes of Bomber, MMA and co. flooded back into GSL, effectively overcrowding it.
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On June 07 2024 00:58 followZeRoX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 21:16 Agh wrote:Can't really compare since it's just different times as well as games. The present will always hold more weight since the players are just going to be better. To reach someone like Happy(war3) or Serral(sc2)'s dominance shows extreme dedication and ability. For instance Moon always got the nod even though people like Lyn made compelling runs at times. But since Happy has cemented himself as the goat even if he stops playing or completely falls off it is very unlikely anyone would surpass him, but not impossible. Serral is probably as close as you're going to get. Sc2 is just such a brutally difficult game, the consistency he exhibits is pretty mind blowing. The only real challengers he has is Maru and someone like Life had they remained. Given the time that each game has been out relative to their dominance is a good metric to bolster the argument. Then again why ponder anything you could always just refer to a 'goat' list to get some super fried takes Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3? If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European
For about half a decade now?
Warcraft 3 scene is quite healthy.
+ Show Spoiler +
If you need additional context -- but that doesn't even highlight the tournaments where he not only didn't drop a single map the entire time, but basically made it look like Zangief was in the ring with a toddler.
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France12781 Posts
On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been.
I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat.
Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens.
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year.
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I always find it weird when people talk about Flash's dominance in Brood War. Watching at the time, I never felt like he was unrivaled, the LeeSsang Rok was always the big thing, and as a certified hater I remember his high profile losses vividly. But I guess he did perform better than Jaedong overall?
Probably technically correct to call Flash the best Brood War player, but I'll never really feel it.
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On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year.
Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals.
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France12781 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals.
His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY.
And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru :
 Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings.
Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.)
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On June 11 2024 22:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I always find it weird when people talk about Flash's dominance in Brood War. Watching at the time, I never felt like he was unrivaled, the LeeSsang Rok was always the big thing, and as a certified hater I remember his high profile losses vividly. But I guess he did perform better than Jaedong overall?
Probably technically correct to call Flash the best Brood War player, but I'll never really feel it.
Personally I also don't get it, but I also never was that deep into BW, so I usually think of it as a novice opinion. Cool to see that someone else has the same train of thought.
Though I guess if you bring in SC:R, Flashs dominance is extreme compared to the other three.
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On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.)
It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NKhbJNG.png)
