On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote: Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
It's because he admitted of mostly only practicing seriously when zerg is OP while the other zergs didn't; but he was still the best zerg in the world at several points Rogue is probably #1 GOAT but "merely" top 5 "BOAT", which is still good
Wow! I actually never thought of it before, but now that you mentioned it...
Two of Rogue's biggest trophies were snatched during the period where everyone with 20/20 hindsight agrees zerg was OP, right? Serral's latest big win was after (let's count) 11 nerfs directed at zerg, and banelings and infestor ate nerf hammers to the face? His prior WC win was also only two years ago. Dang, that does not bode well for the "Rogue best resume" narrative, at all...
Alternatively you could also say Serral won a tournament after 4 big Ghost nerf and numerous nerfs to Protoss
I don't know how anyone could look at that patch and say it was an overall ghost nerf, though. All of the stuff that was needed to deal with ghosts was nerfed. I'm also pretty sure that patch did not benefit zerg over protoss, either. Please remind me, what exactly was nerfed from protoss that really would outweigh the combined nerfs of baneling and infestor range? The nova? The disruptor supply? Disruptor was somewhat used in ZvP but nowhere to the same degree as it was in TvP, no? Maybe I'm wrong on that one. Mothership got a nice buff. Broodlord was slightly nerfed.
On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote: Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
It's because he admitted of mostly only practicing seriously when zerg is OP while the other zergs didn't; but he was still the best zerg in the world at several points Rogue is probably #1 GOAT but "merely" top 5 "BOAT", which is still good
Wow! I actually never thought of it before, but now that you mentioned it...
Two of Rogue's biggest trophies were snatched during the period where everyone with 20/20 hindsight agrees zerg was OP, right? Serral's latest big win was after (let's count) 11 nerfs directed at zerg, and banelings and infestor ate nerf hammers to the face? His prior WC win was also only two years ago. Dang, that does not bode well for the "Rogue best resume" narrative, at all...
Alternatively you could also say Serral won a tournament after 4 big Ghost nerf and numerous nerfs to Protoss
I don't know how anyone could look at that patch and say it was an overall ghost nerf, though. All of the stuff that was needed to deal with ghosts was nerfed. I'm also pretty sure that patch did not benefit zerg over protoss, either. Please remind me, what exactly was nerfed from protoss that really would outweigh the combined nerfs of baneling and infestor range? The nova? The disruptor supply? Disruptor was somewhat used in ZvP but nowhere to the same degree as it was in TvP, no? Maybe I'm wrong on that one. Mothership got a nice buff. Broodlord was slightly nerfed.
Given that you counted 11 Zerg nerfs I assumed you included the patch before the previous one which had things like the battery nerf
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
OK, I get your point. Statistics matters, even though some of the results are less important than the others. A championship is a championship, after all. So small tournaments like Nation Wars and Homestory Cups are important, too.
Then, I'm pretty sure, the absolute GOAT must be... Dark! Look at this long list of tournaments that he won!
World Team League 2022 Winter World Team League 2022 Summer DH SC2 Masters 2022 Valencia World Team League 2021 Winter 2021 Global StarCraft II League Season 2 TeamLiquid StarLeague 6 Gold Series Team Championship 2020 Spring 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2017 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 2016 WCS Korea Season 2 Cross Finals Archon Show Match 2016 WCS Korea Season 2 Cross Finals 2016 StarCraft II StarLeague Season 1: Main Event OSC Championship Season 11 WardiTV 2023 WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 World Team League 2022 Winter AfreecaTV Champions Cup Gladiators' Cup NeXT 2020 Spring Cursory Cup WardiTV Winter Championship 2023: NA Server Qualifier #1 LiuLi Cup #7 HU x StarCraft II Global Virtual Tournament KSL Summer Slam Afreeca World 104 Afreeca World 99 OlimoLeague Invitational #8 Theatre of Dreams 1 QCL: Power Overwhelming Pro Teamleague 2018 ONPOONG StarCraft 2 MASTERS Season 3 BTSL S2: Korea OlimoLeague Monthly Finals: October 2020 ESL Open Cup #215 Korea Korean Starcraft League #40 ESL Open Cup #207 Americas Kung Fu Cup 2023 Winter Weekly #11 ESL Open Cup #205 Korea Korean Starcraft League #38 ESL Open Cup #203 Americas ESL Open Cup #202 Korea ESL Open Cup #199 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2023 Winter Weekly #2 ESL Open Cup #194 Korea Korean Starcraft League #27 ESL Open Cup #192 Americas ESL Open Cup #191 Korea ESL Open Cup #190 Korea ESL Open Cup #189 Americas ESL Open Cup #189 Korea Korean Starcraft League #23 Korean Starcraft League #21 Korean Starcraft League #20 Korean Starcraft League #19 ESL Open Cup #182 Korea Korean Starcraft League #17 Kung Fu Cup 2023 Weekly #8 ESL Open Cup #178 Korea Korean Starcraft League #11 ESL Open Cup #172 Korea ESL Open Cup #171 Americas ESL Open Cup #171 Korea ESL Open Cup #170 Korea ESL Open Cup #169 Korea ESL Open Cup #168 Korea ESL Open Cup #167 Korea ESL Open Cup #166 Korea ESL Open Cup #161 Korea ESL Open Cup #160 Korea ESL Open Cup #159 Americas Goodgame Cup #30 ESL Open Cup #155 Korea ESL Open Cup #154 Korea ESL Open Cup #151 Korea ESL Open Cup #150 Korea ESL Open Cup #148 Korea ESL Open Cup #145 Americas ESL Open Cup #124 Korea ESL Open Cup #100 Korea ESL Open Cup #99 Korea ESL Open Cup #98 Americas ESL Open Cup #98 Korea ESL Open Cup #73 Korea ESL Open Cup #72 Korea ESL Open Cup #68 Korea OlimoLeague Week #224 ESL Open Cup #61 Korea ESL Open Cup #41 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2020 Weekly #25 OlimoLeague Week #206 ESL Open Cup #40 Korea ESL Open Cup #28 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2020 Weekly #18 Anonymous #8 Kung Fu Cup Weekly #10 Anonymous #2 Anonymous #1 Kung Fu Cup Weekly #7 Ballistix Brawl: Season 3 Week #4 Ballistix Brawl Week #2 Korean Starcraft League #44 Korean Starcraft League #43 Brawler's Club #38 AfreecaTV Pro Series #29 AfreecaTV Pro Series #24 INu's Battles #6 AfreecaTV Pro Series #10 AfreecaTV Pro Series #4 ITaX Super Series #91 ITaX Ultimate Battles #13 WTL 2021 Summer: DPG vs KaiZi Show Match Onpoong Ultimate Battle #17 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #16 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #15 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #14 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #13 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #9 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #8 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #7 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #6 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #5 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #4 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #3 Polygon Invitational #10 OlimoLeague Invitational #16 WardiTV Weekly S1 Finals Qualifier #1
He won against Serral 4:0 in the final of TeamLiquid StarLeague 6, earning $6000, while Serrals winning against Clem in Homestory Cup only earned him $3500. Over all, Dark has 128 championships, while Serral only has 106! Poor Rogue only has 70, I absolutely agree that he has no chance to be the GOAT. What a Patchzerg, indeed! He was not even trying! I think I just unveiled the last two GOATs, second place: Serral and 1st place: Dark! Thank you for enlightening me, it all makes sense now.
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
LOL maybe it was a troll account after all?
C'mon man, u gotta at least try to meet your opponents halfway on the forums—this ain't a StarCraft II match.
Say something like "Multi-kills in lower-stakes team tournaments aren't necessarily prestigious on their own, but they can reflect the ability of a player at a certain point in time. Just as INnoVation reminded us of his prowess by carrying AX-Acer to a GSTL championship, Serral did the same for Finland six years later in Nation Wars."
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Wow...I don't even know what to say to you...other than that you're completely missing the point.
No one is saying that it's any one tourney that matters. Are you lost? If you think single-handedly taking a nation to win against everyone, including S Korea, and winning 7 or 8 HSCs, out of 10, were an easy feat, you are most definitely lost. Do you not understand the concept of statistical outliers? Yeah, even players like marinelord, Scarlett, and Oliveira can have a really good day. Are you going to try and put down those championship tournaments those other two won as well because they were statistical outliers? By the way, around that time, marinelord was no slouch, either.
OK, I get your point. Statistics matters, even though some of the results are less important than the others. A championship is a championship, after all. So small tournaments like Nation Wars and Homestory Cups are important, too.
Then, I'm pretty sure, the absolute GOAT must be... Dark! Look at this long list of tournaments that he won!
World Team League 2022 Winter World Team League 2022 Summer DH SC2 Masters 2022 Valencia World Team League 2021 Winter 2021 Global StarCraft II League Season 2 TeamLiquid StarLeague 6 Gold Series Team Championship 2020 Spring 2019 WCS Global Finals 2019 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2 2019 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2017 GSL vs. The World: Teams Competition 2016 WCS Korea Season 2 Cross Finals Archon Show Match 2016 WCS Korea Season 2 Cross Finals 2016 StarCraft II StarLeague Season 1: Main Event OSC Championship Season 11 WardiTV 2023 WardiTV Spring Championship 2023 World Team League 2022 Winter AfreecaTV Champions Cup Gladiators' Cup NeXT 2020 Spring Cursory Cup WardiTV Winter Championship 2023: NA Server Qualifier #1 LiuLi Cup #7 HU x StarCraft II Global Virtual Tournament KSL Summer Slam Afreeca World 104 Afreeca World 99 OlimoLeague Invitational #8 Theatre of Dreams 1 QCL: Power Overwhelming Pro Teamleague 2018 ONPOONG StarCraft 2 MASTERS Season 3 BTSL S2: Korea OlimoLeague Monthly Finals: October 2020 ESL Open Cup #215 Korea Korean Starcraft League #40 ESL Open Cup #207 Americas Kung Fu Cup 2023 Winter Weekly #11 ESL Open Cup #205 Korea Korean Starcraft League #38 ESL Open Cup #203 Americas ESL Open Cup #202 Korea ESL Open Cup #199 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2023 Winter Weekly #2 ESL Open Cup #194 Korea Korean Starcraft League #27 ESL Open Cup #192 Americas ESL Open Cup #191 Korea ESL Open Cup #190 Korea ESL Open Cup #189 Americas ESL Open Cup #189 Korea Korean Starcraft League #23 Korean Starcraft League #21 Korean Starcraft League #20 Korean Starcraft League #19 ESL Open Cup #182 Korea Korean Starcraft League #17 Kung Fu Cup 2023 Weekly #8 ESL Open Cup #178 Korea Korean Starcraft League #11 ESL Open Cup #172 Korea ESL Open Cup #171 Americas ESL Open Cup #171 Korea ESL Open Cup #170 Korea ESL Open Cup #169 Korea ESL Open Cup #168 Korea ESL Open Cup #167 Korea ESL Open Cup #166 Korea ESL Open Cup #161 Korea ESL Open Cup #160 Korea ESL Open Cup #159 Americas Goodgame Cup #30 ESL Open Cup #155 Korea ESL Open Cup #154 Korea ESL Open Cup #151 Korea ESL Open Cup #150 Korea ESL Open Cup #148 Korea ESL Open Cup #145 Americas ESL Open Cup #124 Korea ESL Open Cup #100 Korea ESL Open Cup #99 Korea ESL Open Cup #98 Americas ESL Open Cup #98 Korea ESL Open Cup #73 Korea ESL Open Cup #72 Korea ESL Open Cup #68 Korea OlimoLeague Week #224 ESL Open Cup #61 Korea ESL Open Cup #41 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2020 Weekly #25 OlimoLeague Week #206 ESL Open Cup #40 Korea ESL Open Cup #28 Korea Kung Fu Cup 2020 Weekly #18 Anonymous #8 Kung Fu Cup Weekly #10 Anonymous #2 Anonymous #1 Kung Fu Cup Weekly #7 Ballistix Brawl: Season 3 Week #4 Ballistix Brawl Week #2 Korean Starcraft League #44 Korean Starcraft League #43 Brawler's Club #38 AfreecaTV Pro Series #29 AfreecaTV Pro Series #24 INu's Battles #6 AfreecaTV Pro Series #10 AfreecaTV Pro Series #4 ITaX Super Series #91 ITaX Ultimate Battles #13 WTL 2021 Summer: DPG vs KaiZi Show Match Onpoong Ultimate Battle #17 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #16 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #15 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #14 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #13 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #9 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #8 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #7 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #6 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #5 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #4 Onpoong Ultimate Battle #3 Polygon Invitational #10 OlimoLeague Invitational #16 WardiTV Weekly S1 Finals Qualifier #1
He won against Serral 4:0 in the final of TeamLiquid StarLeague 6, earning $6000, while Serrals winning against Clem in Homestory Cup only earned him $3500. Over all, Dark has 128 championships, while Serral only has 106! Poor Rogue only has 70, I absolutely agree that he has no chance to be the GOAT. What a Patchzerg, indeed! He was not even trying! I think I just unveiled the last two GOATs, second place: Serral and 1st place: Dark! Thank you for enlightening me, it all makes sense now.
How do you even DARE to bring up the ESL tournamets? They are irrelevant and should be excluded! (unless, of course, when discussing why MaxPax is the best toss in the world)
On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote: Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
Always been my perception of him, he’s kind of like a deluxe $o$ in a manner of speaking.
Could he show up and win a World Championship? Sure, and would he look good doing it? Absolutely.
But week in, week out, outside of peaking for the big occasion and being ridiculously clutch once we get to Bo7 land, was he the man? Are you sitting there going ‘holy shit man Rogue is just a cut above?’
For me, not really. For me there’s only ever been four such players who’ve been just the absolute best basically by common consensus for any kind of extended period. Mvp, Innovation, Maru and Serral.
Not that this necessarily locks him out from being above any of those by default, but as a tiebreaker with similar enough resumes I think it does keep him from #1
He’s got the longer career, playing in the more refined competitive era post-Kespa and a trophy cabinet over Mvp. He’s got those World Champs over Innovation, I think it’s fair he places above those two despite being a giant fanboy of both. The other two?
Maru - Better in Proleague, a better HoTS career in general. More Starleagues. Also was still posting damn solid results when Terran in general was in the toilet. At his absolute best played StarCraft at a level perhaps nobody else has matched, or certainly even other top Terrans and just those stretches of having that ‘this bloke is the best’ aura. Rogue outdoes Maru in World Champs, and he’s certainly a more clutch player but I don’t think it’s quite enough to outweigh the boxes ticked in Maru’s column.
Serral - Got parity in World Champs, Rogue obviously has the advantage in prestige Starleagues. Elsewhere Serral easily wins the international Premier battle, even if we’re discounting WCS entirely. Serral has the edge in win rates, indeed his are just absolutely beyond literally everyone, to an almost silly degree. He’s got the edge in head to head too, although I’m only factoring it in as this is something of a tiebreaker. They were both making their hay in the same era too. I just don’t see how Rogue can > Serral here given the overall body of work. If Maru is just that damn skilled he can do things others can’t, but maybe lacks that clutch factor if he can’t just outplay an opponent (still rare to be fair), and Rogue is a top tier albeit streaky fellow who is absolutely the definition of clutch, then I guess Serral is pretty close to a combination of the two. His latent skill is so high he basically doesn’t lose, and when he has to step it up mentally while not quite Rogue, equally it’s rare he makes big blunders, or throws won games or gets swept.
Rogue is an absolute demon. His record in bo7s being so dramatically higher than everyone else in the top 10 is ridiculous. He even has the Michael Jordan "never loses finals" stat. Once a sniper in proleague then somehow managed to have a bag of snipe builds so deep he could win any time he really wanted.
For example, Katowice 2020 where he said he just wanted to cheer for his friends and warmup Maru for Serral, but decided to just win tournament instead once Serral got knocked out.
Or the time when Rain won GSL and Rogue just knocked him out the group stage next season with a 6pool.
Whether it's nydus allins, or proxy hatches, hydra timings, or 12pools, or even lategame BL Infestor, he would do whatever would 100% work.
My favourite Rogue game has to be this comeback against Classic.
Even the casters and observers missed the biggest part of this game, that Classic never spotted the second hatch in his main. Rogue won a game he was certain to lose with but 3 drones
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
It's Serral who has the best ZvP of all time.
Rogue's stats in general were never that impressive. It was his results that were
It was almost impossible to imagine Rogue losing a ZvP when it mattered. For the few years before his championships he was a ZvP sniper in Proleague, always taking ace matches for JinAir whenever they knew opponents would field a protoss. And most notable results in individual leagues were knocking legendary protoss players like Rain or Zest out of big tournaments. He also had a much deeper bag of builds than Serral ever did. He would sometimes win ZvP bo5s by nydus worm every game
His legendary finals stats consist of beating herO, Zest, Classic, Stats, Trap, soO, and Maru. You could probably attribute Rogue to be responsible for the drought in protoss championships from 2017 onwards. (Well, at least until every protoss retired)
Look at the multiple Katowice's where Serral lost to Classic and Zest only for them to get annihilated 4-0 by Rogue. Serral has better fundamentals and is more consistent, I'll agree with that. But Rogue just didn't lose to protoss when the stakes were high.
On February 27 2024 17:41 dbRic1203 wrote: Prediction: Dark gets #2 and Maru / Serral share first place I Don t see a World where Dark is ranked lower than Mvp
Dark shouldn’t be lower that TY sos soo or rain. His resume is far superior than TY
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
It's Serral who has the best ZvP of all time.
I thought so too but in the stats Miz posted Rogues ZvP map winrate offline vs koreans is only 1.3% lower than Serrals
On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote: single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Stlll better achievement than the last couple years of GSL
Rogue be like: destroy everyone win the World Championship do the lamest trophy lifting in e-sports admit Zerg is imba bombing out first round in next tournament repeat
On February 27 2024 23:58 yht9657 wrote: Rogue be like: destroy everyone win the World Championship do the lamest trophy lifting in e-sports admit Zerg is imba bombing out first round in next tournament repeat
Absolute chad.
LOL. This is actually the best summation of the Rogue experience. The consummate Maverick!
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
It's Serral who has the best ZvP of all time.
I thought so too but in the stats Miz posted Rogues ZvP map winrate offline vs koreans is only 1.3% lower than Serrals
But this doesn't even mean that much to me because a huge chunk of rogues prime took place during the pandemic, when every tournament was online for like a year and a half. Why are we excluding that? And the offline only stat maybe has more value pre 2018 or so, but major international online tournaments are pretty much the bedrock of modern SC2 for the past six five years or so. Again, weird to exclude.
And I suppose for whatever it's worth maybe you can't say Rogue had bad ZVP considering his offline results. But I'm definitely never going to call someone "the best ZvP of all time" who literally has sub 50% win rates against the best toss players overall.
On February 27 2024 23:06 Fango wrote: Rogue is an absolute demon. His record in bo7s being so dramatically higher than everyone else in the top 10 is ridiculous. He even has the Michael Jordan "never loses finals" stat. Once a sniper in proleague then somehow managed to have a bag of snipe builds so deep he could win any time he really wanted.
For example, Katowice 2020 where he said he just wanted to cheer for his friends and warmup Maru for Serral, but decided to just win tournament instead once Serral got knocked out.
Or the time when Rain won GSL and Rogue just knocked him out the group stage next season with a 6pool.
Whether it's nydus allins, or proxy hatches, hydra timings, or 12pools, or even lategame BL Infestor, he would do whatever would 100% work.
My favourite Rogue game has to be this comeback against Classic. Even the casters and observers missed the biggest part of this game, that Classic never spotted the second hatch in his main. Rogue won a game he was certain to lose with but 3 drones
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
That must be Serral, surely?
Agree with much here though, the Bo7 record is a remarkable stat indeed. It does really cement his clutch status.
That said I think it is somewhat inflated by him being so streaky. You definitionally only play Bo7 offline matches if you’re making finals. A player who can still make finals while not 100% is going to have a worse record than a streaky player who either bombs out or peaks hard.
Looking into the stats here. Some caveats before I splurge. Ideally there would be a ‘Premier’ filter on Aligulac. Unless I’m messing up, which wouldn’t be the first time, the Covid era making previous offline prestige tournaments, online does make it less of an elegant filter.
It’s a workaround that isn’t perfect, filters applied - Bo5+, Korean opposition, offline. This has the downside of excluding someone like Reynor, and Premier offline tournaments, but I think it’s a decent baseline:
Rogue is 212–163(56.53%) in games and 53–36(59.55%) in matches.
Maru is 320–247(56.44%) in games and 79–51(60.77%) in matches.
Serral is 136–89(60.44%) in games and 35–19 (64.81%) in matches.
I tried filtering for other things, but if you use the offline filter you end up injecting a load of non-Premier tournaments.
On the first pass at least Rogue may be by far the best finals player of the three, but is actually the worst in playoff territory in general, albeit not by much.
I think he's easily going down as the best ZvP player of all time as well. It's not even really a question in my mind.
I like the rest of your post but this is actually a huge mistatement. Rogue actually had *remarkably* bad ZvP. I checked this on Aligulac a year back or so, but he actually has a losing win rate (sub 50) against the top tosses from like 2019 onwards or something like that (Zest, Trap, Stats, e.g.)
But he knew how to win in big tournaments and everyone remembers him just absolutely crushing tosses in finals, which created a myth he was generally great at ZvP. No. He was great at finals.
It's Serral who has the best ZvP of all time.
Rogue's stats in general were never that impressive. It was his results that were
It was almost impossible to imagine Rogue losing a ZvP when it mattered. For the few years before his championships he was a ZvP sniper in Proleague, always taking ace matches for JinAir whenever they knew opponents would field a protoss. And most notable results in individual leagues were knocking legendary protoss players like Rain or Zest out of big tournaments. He also had a much deeper bag of builds than Serral ever did. He would sometimes win ZvP bo5s by nydus worm every game
His legendary finals stats consist of beating herO, Zest, Classic, Stats, Trap, soO, and Maru. You could probably attribute Rogue to be responsible for the drought in protoss championships from 2017 onwards. (Well, at least until every protoss retired)
Look at the multiple Katowice's where Serral lost to Classic and Zest only for them to get annihilated 4-0 by Rogue. Serral has better fundamentals and is more consistent, I'll agree with that. But Rogue just didn't lose to protoss when the stakes were high.
But this is just conflating him being great at ZvP with him being great at finals. Rogue demolished everyone in finals. It happened that they were mostly tosses, but considering his overall ZvP, it seems clear that was more just being great at finals than anything unique in ZvP.
And uh your "deep bag of builds" is my imbalanced nydus worm and swarmhost strats. Not impressed. To be honest, to the extent anyone wants to diminish modern results based on balance, Rogue should be the #1 victim of that. Guy was abusive as all heck.
Rogue: 11 champions, 1 second place, 8 semifinal finish Maru: 15 champions, 11 second place, 20 semifinal finish Serral: 25 champions, 12 second place, 10 semifinal finish
If you discount the region-lock tournaments, Serral still has: 16 champions, 7 second place, 7 semifinal finish
Rogue has insane final winrate but he has less than half of finals appearance than Maru and Serral. Maru is an absurdly consistent top 4 finisher for his long career. Serral's finals appearance is close to Maru but has better winrate, he's also super consistent in top 4 finish but has a shorter career than Maru.
For me it always felt like if Rogue is not 100% he would often just bomb out of a tournament really early. While the corpse of Maru and Serral would still usually ends up in the semifinals or so, because their latency skill level is so high. I am still not quite sure if I should hold Rogue's absurd finals winrate as an argument for him or slightly against him, since it partially indicates his inconsistency compared to the other two.
It's different than MJ vs LeBron debate of 6-0 vs 4-6 in finals. In MJ's prime there was this invincibility aura about him, he just won't lose, MJ and Bulls tower over everyone in the league. You feel the same way about Serral, Maru and Innovation in their best years, but rarely so for Rogue, even if he won so many.
I get that some people like to say Serral's EU tournaments are not as competitive as GSL, I would agree in principle but you can't just wipe off all his success in EU like that. Going through prime Reynor and Clem is still quite an achievement. Maru almost won last year Katowice by beating Solar, Ragnarock and Oliveira (if he played "normally"), I'd say that's a weaker line up than a lot of Serral's EU WCS and DH wins. You can give those EU tournaments a 30% discount in "premiere-ness", but to straight up pretend they don't matter is just blatant bias.
Bonus: Dark: 8 champions, 13 second place, 18 semifinal finish. Look at how they massacred my boi
EPT
