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Russian Federation40190 Posts
At this point the Miz's blog explaining #11-20 placements might end up being just as expected as the final 2 articles finally sorting out what is more important (to Miz): overall dominance or Korean starleagues.
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My other interest is boxing, and I'm always baffled by how many people from that community appeal to authority when it comes to debating pound-for-pound (P4P) lists. Too many default to "X official list has Y boxer as #1," or "most official lists have..." I mean, I do think it's interesting what conclusions publishers come to, and how they rationalize their decisions, but what I've never understood is the extent to which fans appeal to these publications for their own opinions. "Lemmings..." is all I can say.
Have your list. It's fine. It's interesting, even! However, let's not get too invested/rattled by any single person's opinions. It's good enough if you have your own standards/criteria, and your own list. Don't worry about others.
Dark is definitely on mine, and I consider him above Rogue. He's won far too much money, and has gone deep into too many big tournaments to exclude him, and most of all performs far too consistently strongly. I would slap myself if I were remiss to include him. I still don't quite understand Mizenhauer's justification for leaving him out.
I have Innovation, and even TY, way above MVP, and have debated whether to take MVP off my list entirely. I'm sorry, but I feel very icky about having any WoL-only era player on my list. For three reasons: primarily, they bailed out on the game too soon; if you have no love for the game, I have little love for you. Secondly, WoL itself was too simple, and undeveloped a game. Finally, the players' average skill level in the earliest years was so far beneath even HotS's level, I really can't respect it much.
Reynor is also there. I don't understand how someone can win two championships, one against Maru no less, multiple grand finals against Serral, and multiple 2nd-4th finishes in the biggest tournaments, and still not qualify. Insane. In two championships that he didn't win, he placed 2nd, which net him more money than 8 non-WC premiere wins combined would. Reynor's career earnings is also up there, close to Dark.
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On February 27 2024 12:42 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 12:20 FFXthebest wrote:On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote:
It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers. The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military User was warned for this postAlso didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series Maru and Rogue are the same in that regard lol. Rogue is even worse though. Both popped off after korean teams (apart from theirs) died.
Popped off as in went on multiple world champion winning sprees sure, but both were very successful before then too.
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On February 27 2024 14:46 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 12:42 Phredxor wrote:On February 27 2024 12:20 FFXthebest wrote:On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote:
It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers. The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military User was warned for this postAlso didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series Maru and Rogue are the same in that regard lol. Rogue is even worse though. Both popped off after korean teams (apart from theirs) died. Popped off as in went on multiple world champion winning sprees sure, but both were very successful before then too.
Maru, sure. Rogue was nothing special til 2017. Just good for some wacky games now and then. A bunch of ro8s and above average proleague results ain't much to write home about imo.
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Woohoo! I've been waiting for this one for a while. Probably the least controversial placement in the whole list. In terms of "playing on another level and looking absolutely unbeatable," Rogue was one of the few that ever reached those heights, especially when it came down to grand finals appearances
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On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc).
I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"??
I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant?
Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL
The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane.
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On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane.
Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy.
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On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy.
"Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016.
"Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)?
I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then.
Edit: I guess you were specifically responding to the "...where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral?" clause. I know it's speculative, but I have little doubt that if Clem were stewed in Kr's environment, he would've more quickly learned their play, and adjusted to them. Considering how young he is, and his only real practice against Koreans was through actual tournaments, I think he's shown he has the talent to improve at a much more rapid pace against Koreans if he were competing regularly over there.
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On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then.
I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10.
I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality.
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On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality.
I'm sorry, but here we go again with the bias... 9/10 is an incredible exaggeration. If you put Maru against Heromarine (and we know Maru's TvT is insane), he would NOT likely win 9/10 matches, let alone games. A 900% winrate over anyone would net you over 1000 Elo pts over them. Not even Maru's TvT is that much stronger than Heromarine's. You only have to look over Maru's match history to see that Maru has nowhere near 9:1 maps winrate against Heromarine, and had lost 1 out of 7 matches. Rogue's winrate vs Showtime is virtually even. Same vs Neeb. He lost every match to Elazer, except for one tie. Do you need more examples?
If Scarlet, Jinro, and Special could make deep runs into GSL, there's a larger number of players who could as well. IN fact, Neeb did make it deep once, or twice, and Neeb was one of the players Serral had to defeat in his region-locked tournament wins.
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On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality.
Weren't showtime, elazer, heromarine quite competitive the last several years though? Like i remember them besting top KRs in WCS global finals, Elazer getting like a top 4 at one or something didn't he?
And heromarine just got out of his group 5-0 at Katowice including vs Solar and Gumiho, and has had insane runs before too.
And the other EU players like Spirit can still compete and win vs T2-T3 GSL players like Creator, Bunny, Classic, etc.
If I'm thinking about GSL, recent years it feels it's just been mainly Maru, Rogue, Dark, Cure, and Creator/Ragnarok got brief spikes, and Solar more recently. hero, Gumiho, Byun do good sometimes. It's a little more depth than EU scene but we've seen that foreign scene has been pretty comparative in skill to KR. KR has a little more players at the A tier, but EU having more S tier players (Serral, and Reynor/Clem on a good day, vs just Maru Dark and Cure on a good day) and usually coming out on top (Serral, Reynor, Clem).
I have to agree with Perceivere that TL users definitely feel KR biased, including the weighting of Starleagues in GOAT lists. It feels like many people in the SC2 scene don't have this bias, but they tend to not post here as much because whenever they say Serral is better than Maru or whatever, it feels a bit controversial on TL when it should be pretty reasonable to say so.
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France12933 Posts
On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc).
Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though
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On February 27 2024 16:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality. Weren't showtime, elazer, heromarine quite competitive the last several years though? Like i remember them besting top KRs in WCS global finals, Elazer getting like a top 4 at one or something didn't he? And heromarine just got out of his group 5-0 at Katowice including vs Solar and Gumiho, and has had insane runs before too. And the other EU players like Spirit can still compete and win vs T2-T3 GSL players like Creator, Bunny, Classic, etc. If I'm thinking about GSL, recent years it feels it's just been mainly Maru, Rogue, Dark, Cure, and Creator/Ragnarok got brief spikes, and Solar more recently. hero, Gumiho, Byun do good sometimes. It's a little more depth than EU scene but we've seen that foreign scene has been pretty comparative in skill to KR. KR has a little more players at the A tier, but EU having more S tier players (Serral, and Reynor/Clem on a good day, vs just Maru Dark and Cure on a good day) and usually coming out on top (Serral, Reynor, Clem). I have to agree with Perceivere that TL users definitely feel KR biased, including the weighting of Starleagues in GOAT lists. It feels like many people in the SC2 scene don't have this bias, but they tend to not post here as much because whenever they say Serral is better than Maru or whatever, it feels a bit controversial on TL when it should be pretty reasonable to say so.
OK so, to structure an unbias look at these players... how we should weigth the tournaments? Can you give a list of torunament types and weigths? Where with your put the starleagues? Give me heromarine, elazer and spirit historical numbers and compare the head2head vs Classic Bunny Creator.
Lastly, please keep in mind this is not a 2024 road to Gamer8 power ranking (tl.net also does those), this is a historical view of the long decade of the game.
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On February 27 2024 16:48 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though
Serral's resume is far better, even if you only count high placements and 1st placements. If you count the amount of bad runs (low placements), the gap widens much further in Serral's favor. Counting only wins and not severe fails is silly, but even by that silly metric, Serral is still far ahead.
Serral didn't have to "slack off" or "hide builds/strategies" (to nearly the same degree as Rogue) to prepare for big tournaments to win those big tournaments. He puts almost all of his cards on the table for all to see, all year-round, and then still runs over everybody. That's not something Rogue could remotely pull off; or if he could, he certainly didn't show it.
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On February 27 2024 16:18 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality. I'm sorry, but here we go again with the bias... 9/10 is an incredible exaggeration. If you put Maru against Heromarine (and we know Maru's TvT is insane), he would NOT likely win 9/10 matches, let alone games. A 900% winrate over anyone would net you over 1000 Elo pts over them. Not even Maru's TvT is that much stronger than Heromarine's. You only have to look over Maru's match history to see that Maru has nowhere near 9:1 maps winrate against Heromarine, and had lost 1 out of 7 matches. Rogue's winrate vs Showtime is virtually even. Same vs Neeb. He lost every match to Elazer, except for one tie. Do you need more examples? If Scarlet, Jinro, and Special could make deep runs into GSL, there's a larger number of players who could as well. IN fact, Neeb did make it deep once, or twice, and Neeb was one of the players Serral had to defeat in his region-locked tournament wins.
Lol, sorry but saying Maru would beat HM 9 times out of ten when the actual statistic is 6 times out of 7 is not an incredible exaggeration. "Every match but one tie vs Elazer" is also hilariously cherry picking when they've only played a statistically insignificant 7 maps total against each other and in such high stakes tournaments such as the Kung Fu weekly cup #2. The fact that this is the example you chose screams of grasping for straws.
In 2018 and 2019 when Serral was racking up his region locked WCS wins, he was not competing against the following still active Koreans: Maru, Classic, Stats, Zest, TY, Rogue, Dark, sOs, Gumiho, Trap, Solar, soO, Dear, INnoVaTion, ByuN, etc etc. Those are all players who would be absolutely favored to knock out almost any EU player of that era. If you're saying Serral's WCS wins were highly significant in that time period when you look at all the opponents he didn't have to face to get them, then I don't really know what to say.
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France12933 Posts
On February 27 2024 17:00 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 16:48 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though Serral's resume is far better, even if you only count high placements and 1st placements. If you count the amount of bad runs (low placements), the gap widens much further in Serral's favor. Counting only wins and not severe fails is silly, but even by that silly metric, Serral is still far ahead. Serral didn't have to "slack off" or "hide builds/strategies" (to nearly the same degree as Rogue) to prepare for big tournaments to win those big tournaments. He puts almost all of his cards on the table for all to see, all year-round, and then still runs over everybody. That's not something Rogue could remotely pull off; or if he could, he certainly didn't show it.
How is his resume better?
He won the same amount of World Championships, but Rogue also won GSL, and some other tournaments, while Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go (otherwise TaeJa would be a GOAT candidate)
I mean, I was already telling tl.net that Serral was the best zerg in the world back in 2018 and people thought I was trolling, but his resume is far from being as good as Rogue
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On February 27 2024 17:03 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 16:18 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality. I'm sorry, but here we go again with the bias... 9/10 is an incredible exaggeration. If you put Maru against Heromarine (and we know Maru's TvT is insane), he would NOT likely win 9/10 matches, let alone games. A 900% winrate over anyone would net you over 1000 Elo pts over them. Not even Maru's TvT is that much stronger than Heromarine's. You only have to look over Maru's match history to see that Maru has nowhere near 9:1 maps winrate against Heromarine, and had lost 1 out of 7 matches. Rogue's winrate vs Showtime is virtually even. Same vs Neeb. He lost every match to Elazer, except for one tie. Do you need more examples? If Scarlet, Jinro, and Special could make deep runs into GSL, there's a larger number of players who could as well. IN fact, Neeb did make it deep once, or twice, and Neeb was one of the players Serral had to defeat in his region-locked tournament wins. Lol, sorry but saying Maru would beat HM 9 times out of ten when the actual statistic is 6 times out of 7 is not an incredible exaggeration. "Every match but one tie vs Elazer" is also hilariously cherry picking when they've only played a statistically insignificant 7 maps total against each other and in such high stakes tournaments such as the Kung Fu weekly cup #2. The fact that this is the example you chose screams of grasping for straws. In 2018 and 2019 when Serral was racking up his region locked WCS wins, he was not competing against the following still active Koreans: Maru, Classic, Stats, Zest, TY, Rogue, Dark, sOs, Gumiho, Trap, Solar, soO, Dear, INnoVaTion, ByuN, etc etc. Those are all players who would be absolutely favored to knock out almost any EU player of that era. If you're saying Serral's WCS wins were highly significant in that time period when you look at all the opponents he didn't have to face to get them, then I don't really know what to say.
I chose Heromarine because the winrate between him and Maru should be the widest example. Meaning, there are many other matchups that would far exceed your 1/10 winrate claimed. Funny that you chose to single out Elazer's example as "cherry picking" when I also provided other examples. Clem has also given Rogue several losses. The fact is, you can't just speculate willy nilly that in a higher stake tournaments, Rogue would have 9/10 chances against players that have crushed him in low-stakes tournaments. It's wishful thinking at best.
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On February 27 2024 17:21 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 17:00 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:48 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though Serral's resume is far better, even if you only count high placements and 1st placements. If you count the amount of bad runs (low placements), the gap widens much further in Serral's favor. Counting only wins and not severe fails is silly, but even by that silly metric, Serral is still far ahead. Serral didn't have to "slack off" or "hide builds/strategies" (to nearly the same degree as Rogue) to prepare for big tournaments to win those big tournaments. He puts almost all of his cards on the table for all to see, all year-round, and then still runs over everybody. That's not something Rogue could remotely pull off; or if he could, he certainly didn't show it. How is his resume better? He won the same amount of World Championships, but Rogue also won GSL, and some other tournaments, while Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go (otherwise TaeJa would be a GOAT candidate) I mean, I was already telling tl.net that Serral was the best zerg in the world back in 2018 and people thought I was trolling, but his resume is far from being as good as Rogue
This is an example of what I've been talking about. You say "some other tournaments" but refuse to enumerate them, while Serral's myriad region-locked wins and long string of HSCs are just "a few." And then purposefully leaving out all the other global premiere wins and high standings I listed in my reply to Wax:
"Serral: Same big threes (WCs) as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral???"
No one said Taeja would be a GOAT candidate based on three HSC wins. lol It is all the accolades combined. You are purposefully ignoring a shit ton of achievements because you arbitrarily throw them in the "insignificant" bin, but the fact is not only are they each not as insignificant as you think, but also the sheer volume of them together is far more than you're willing to accept, because it doesn't fit your narrative.
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Prediction:
Dark gets #2 and Maru / Serral share first place
I Don t see a World where Dark is ranked lower than Mvp
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On February 27 2024 17:22 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 17:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 16:18 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality. I'm sorry, but here we go again with the bias... 9/10 is an incredible exaggeration. If you put Maru against Heromarine (and we know Maru's TvT is insane), he would NOT likely win 9/10 matches, let alone games. A 900% winrate over anyone would net you over 1000 Elo pts over them. Not even Maru's TvT is that much stronger than Heromarine's. You only have to look over Maru's match history to see that Maru has nowhere near 9:1 maps winrate against Heromarine, and had lost 1 out of 7 matches. Rogue's winrate vs Showtime is virtually even. Same vs Neeb. He lost every match to Elazer, except for one tie. Do you need more examples? If Scarlet, Jinro, and Special could make deep runs into GSL, there's a larger number of players who could as well. IN fact, Neeb did make it deep once, or twice, and Neeb was one of the players Serral had to defeat in his region-locked tournament wins. Lol, sorry but saying Maru would beat HM 9 times out of ten when the actual statistic is 6 times out of 7 is not an incredible exaggeration. "Every match but one tie vs Elazer" is also hilariously cherry picking when they've only played a statistically insignificant 7 maps total against each other and in such high stakes tournaments such as the Kung Fu weekly cup #2. The fact that this is the example you chose screams of grasping for straws. In 2018 and 2019 when Serral was racking up his region locked WCS wins, he was not competing against the following still active Koreans: Maru, Classic, Stats, Zest, TY, Rogue, Dark, sOs, Gumiho, Trap, Solar, soO, Dear, INnoVaTion, ByuN, etc etc. Those are all players who would be absolutely favored to knock out almost any EU player of that era. If you're saying Serral's WCS wins were highly significant in that time period when you look at all the opponents he didn't have to face to get them, then I don't really know what to say. I chose Heromarine because the winrate between him and Maru should be the widest example. Meaning, there are many other matchups that would far exceed your 1/10 winrate claimed. Funny that you chose to single out Elazer's example as "cherry picking" when I also provided other examples. Clem has also given Rogue several losses. The fact is, you can't just speculate willy nilly that in a higher stake tournaments, Rogue would have 9/10 chances against players that have crushed him in low-stakes tournaments. It's wishful thinking at best.
Let's pretend that when I said "9 times out of 10", I wasn't speaking in a literal sense but was instead using it as a literary device to mean "heavily favored" since you're so hyperfocused on that one phrase.
With that out of the way, take a look again at all the players I listed above that were active when Serral was winning WCS tournaments that he never had to face, and compare them against his EU opponents in their 2018 and 2019 forms. Then tell me with a straight face that those WCS tournaments belong in a GOAT discussion and are worth mentioning when we're comparing Rogue's and Serral's resumes.
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EPT
