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On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:
"Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016.
"Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)?
I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then.
Edit: I guess you were specifically responding to the "...where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral?" clause. I know it's speculative, but I have little doubt that if Clem were stewed in Kr's environment, he would've more quickly learned their play, and adjusted to them. Considering how young he is, and his only real practice against Koreans was through actual tournaments, I think he's shown he has the talent to improve at a much more rapid pace against Koreans if he were competing regularly over there.
Or maybe Clem would not even have existed in a Kr environment, that's why we had region lock in the first place. With "ifs" you can rewrite all history if you want. But there's no need for that, we have datas, and for the past 4 years for the vast majority of global premier only had 2 or 3 EU players in the top 8 and often at least 5 koreans. One of the EU being almost always Serral, then Reynor and more recently as stated here: Clem. There's no denial that the EU scene has gone stronger and stronger, but there's no denial that Serral only true competition in region locked were these 2.
That's why there is a Korean "bias", same bias that makes you highlight foreigners achievements in general, it's a reality. Even though we all agree it's shifting.
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On February 27 2024 12:42 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 12:20 FFXthebest wrote:On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote:
It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers. The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military User was warned for this postAlso didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series Maru and Rogue are the same in that regard lol. Rogue is even worse though. Both popped off after korean teams (apart from theirs) died.
Same as Serral. If results post 2016 are worth so much less then Inno should be the Goat
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On February 27 2024 17:41 dbRic1203 wrote:
Prediction:
Dark gets #2 and Maru / Serral share first place
I Don t see a World where Dark is ranked lower than Mvp
Yeah, that's the only thing that would make sense.
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On February 27 2024 18:03 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 12:42 Phredxor wrote:On February 27 2024 12:20 FFXthebest wrote:On February 27 2024 12:09 JJH777 wrote:
It is interesting to wonder what else Rogue would have won if not for military. Many have pointed out that he seems like the exact type of player that would kill the fun Oliveira run. Seems very likely he would have won at least 1 more GSL as well and wouldn't have been surprised to see him pick up another random online or smaller weekend event.
Also just how few offline series Reynor/Serral have played vs Koreans always surprises me. I can't believe Serral has only played 35 matches vs Korean Protoss in 7 full years of being at the top of SC2. Even crazier that Reynor is only at 20 since he even went to Korea twice and only peaked 1 years later. Had to go double check both because of how surprised I was. Recently I've been thinking Serral's the goat but seeing just how little he had to play Koreans offline for his results reminds me why I'm still not sure he truly deserves that title. Non-Koreans were just given every possible advantage in most online events, including start time, ping, and groups I can't think of those as very valuable premiers. The classic coping excuses ping, schedule, jet lag Koreans are just not as good as you think they are. Then again, Maru already admits that Serral makes him look like a bronze player Back to topic, I would have rogue higher than Maru, rogue accomplish were far more impressive than Maru. Maru only has his “weak GSLs victories”, literally had to wait for his KR peers to get older or leave for military User was warned for this postAlso didn’t know Dark struggled that much in BO7 series Maru and Rogue are the same in that regard lol. Rogue is even worse though. Both popped off after korean teams (apart from theirs) died. Same as Serral. If results post 2016 are worth so much less then Inno should be the Goat
You aint wrong.
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He should be at least #2, let's be honest here..
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On February 27 2024 17:21 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 17:00 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:48 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though Serral's resume is far better, even if you only count high placements and 1st placements. If you count the amount of bad runs (low placements), the gap widens much further in Serral's favor. Counting only wins and not severe fails is silly, but even by that silly metric, Serral is still far ahead. Serral didn't have to "slack off" or "hide builds/strategies" (to nearly the same degree as Rogue) to prepare for big tournaments to win those big tournaments. He puts almost all of his cards on the table for all to see, all year-round, and then still runs over everybody. That's not something Rogue could remotely pull off; or if he could, he certainly didn't show it. How is his resume better? He won the same amount of World Championships, but Rogue also won GSL, and some other tournaments, while Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go (otherwise TaeJa would be a GOAT candidate) I mean, I was already telling tl.net that Serral was the best zerg in the world back in 2018 and people thought I was trolling, but his resume is far from being as good as Rogue
Comparing Serral's and Rogue's resume like this is very misleading
"He won the same amount of World Championships, but Rogue also won GSL, and some other tournaments"
For premiers tournaments, "some other tournaments" means you're talking about 2 GSL ST, one TSL (online) and IEM Shangai
while Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go
Casually forgetting 2 GSL vs the World, 1 ESL Master, 1 TSL (this one was offline). As well as 6 premier online international tournament wins (iirc 4 during the COVID era and 2 recent ones)
Also, previous HSC aren't cups that 'don't matter as much", HSC 20, 19 and 18 had an average of 10 koreans players including one with Rogue. The post covid ones are definitely not on the same level tho.
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On February 27 2024 17:54 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 17:22 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 17:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 16:18 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:03 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:48 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 15:33 Kitai wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). I'm looking at their results on their liquipedia pages, and I don't see it. I can understand why some may have his resume edging over Serral's, but..."CLEARLY"?? I can easily name Rogue's biggest wins: Two IEM WCs, and 1 Blizzcon WC, four code S, an IEM Shanghai, two GSL STs, and...what else am I missing that is significant? Serral: Same big threes as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral??? LOL The clear pro-Kr bias of some people is actually insane. Serral's only competition in EU in the last like 3 years that could reasonably have gotten far in Code S is Reynor. Clem has only recently gotten to that level, and nobody else in EU has ever been good enough to even dream of contending for a Code S trophy. "Gotten far" is a ridiculous standard. Pro-Kr-biased fans weight GSL heavily because they attach a certain "aura" to Korean players. A good number of these Kr players hardly ever get far into the GSLs. Call them high-Code A, or low Code-S, or whatever. They make up a large chunk of "Code S" players post-2016. "Serral's competition" is an even more ridiculous standard. How many players can you really name that is his competition (unless you include head-to-head competition, in which case there's several zergs)? I strongly disagree regarding Clem. It's not only recently that he's gotten so strong. He defeated Reynor in 2020 to snatch the EU regional win. The fact is, Clem for whatever reason took a very long time to understand the Koreans and adjust to them, and to develop his TvT. Reynor also, but to a much lesser degree. But that's not really relevant; the point is, Clem's T v Reynor/Serral was incredibly strong since 2020. He knew them like the back of his hand. Clem WAS his FIERCE competition since then. I said his only competition that could hope to make a deep run in Code S. Since that's the kind of quality of opponents that matters in GOAT lists. Nobody's opinion is going to be swayed because he beat Elazer, Showtime, and Heromarine because it's well understood that everyone else who belongs on this list would also beat them 9 times out of 10. I think Serral does belong in the top spot, but it's not because he won a bunch of EU region locked trophies that only had 1 or 2 Code-S trophy level opponents. It's because of the tournaments he won that had lots of opponents of that quality. I'm sorry, but here we go again with the bias... 9/10 is an incredible exaggeration. If you put Maru against Heromarine (and we know Maru's TvT is insane), he would NOT likely win 9/10 matches, let alone games. A 900% winrate over anyone would net you over 1000 Elo pts over them. Not even Maru's TvT is that much stronger than Heromarine's. You only have to look over Maru's match history to see that Maru has nowhere near 9:1 maps winrate against Heromarine, and had lost 1 out of 7 matches. Rogue's winrate vs Showtime is virtually even. Same vs Neeb. He lost every match to Elazer, except for one tie. Do you need more examples? If Scarlet, Jinro, and Special could make deep runs into GSL, there's a larger number of players who could as well. IN fact, Neeb did make it deep once, or twice, and Neeb was one of the players Serral had to defeat in his region-locked tournament wins. Lol, sorry but saying Maru would beat HM 9 times out of ten when the actual statistic is 6 times out of 7 is not an incredible exaggeration. "Every match but one tie vs Elazer" is also hilariously cherry picking when they've only played a statistically insignificant 7 maps total against each other and in such high stakes tournaments such as the Kung Fu weekly cup #2. The fact that this is the example you chose screams of grasping for straws. In 2018 and 2019 when Serral was racking up his region locked WCS wins, he was not competing against the following still active Koreans: Maru, Classic, Stats, Zest, TY, Rogue, Dark, sOs, Gumiho, Trap, Solar, soO, Dear, INnoVaTion, ByuN, etc etc. Those are all players who would be absolutely favored to knock out almost any EU player of that era. If you're saying Serral's WCS wins were highly significant in that time period when you look at all the opponents he didn't have to face to get them, then I don't really know what to say. I chose Heromarine because the winrate between him and Maru should be the widest example. Meaning, there are many other matchups that would far exceed your 1/10 winrate claimed. Funny that you chose to single out Elazer's example as "cherry picking" when I also provided other examples. Clem has also given Rogue several losses. The fact is, you can't just speculate willy nilly that in a higher stake tournaments, Rogue would have 9/10 chances against players that have crushed him in low-stakes tournaments. It's wishful thinking at best. Let's pretend that when I said "9 times out of 10", I wasn't speaking in a literal sense but was instead using it as a literary device to mean "heavily favored" since you're so hyperfocused on that one phrase. With that out of the way, take a look again at all the players I listed above that were active when Serral was winning WCS tournaments that he never had to face, and compare them against his EU opponents in their 2018 and 2019 forms. Then tell me with a straight face that those WCS tournaments belong in a GOAT discussion and are worth mentioning when we're comparing Rogue's and Serral's resumes.
You are still not quite getting my point. I never said any of his region-locked wins were the same caliber of a GSL win. Those WCS wins altogether were significant, still, but indeed not terribly so. I agree.
The Dreamhack EU's were a different ballgame. Those were after Reynor and Clem had leveled up hard. Here's something to consider: these tournaments were all single elim tournaments, except for a couple DH EU. Meaning: Sure, your GSL stars were all present in the playoffs of Code S, and sure, there's a lot of them, and the vast majority of them are at least as strong as Heromarine/Showtime/Elazer. However, any one of them would only have to go through 3 (edit: roughly 3—the recent GSL formatting has been different) of those players in the playoffs. More likely than not, the players they had to go through in the groupstages were players of similar caliber to Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, but often even much weaker than those three. Serral, in his playoffs went through players who ranged anywhere between Elazer and Clem, where Clem and Reynor are proven to be harder opponents for Serral than any of the Koreans, save for Dark. As such, while the opposition Serral went through in each of his region-locked premiere win was not as hard as, say, Rogue going through TY, Classic, and then Dark in his playoffs, if you add up the combined strength of Showtime, Heromarine, and Clem, it's not far weaker than the combined strength of TY, Classic, and Dark. And it were three of these DH EU's he'd won. Now, when you include all the other shit he's won as well...
(Addendum) Note, also, in two of those DH EU's, Serral went through four strong players, including Clem twice in each tournament. I mean, anybody without looking at the results would've told Serral must've had a hell of a time, but in actually he completely crushed Clem, one of his toughest opponents.
I disagree that Rogue would've been "overwhelming favored" against Neeb, or Elazer in a big tournament. Somewhat favored against neeb, and maybe 50/50 against Elazer. Dark, being zerg, would not necessarily have an easy time against Elazer, too. Rogue had a tendency to "power up" when it matters most, but this aspect has been exaggerated as well.
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Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
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On February 27 2024 17:41 dbRic1203 wrote:
Prediction:
Dark gets #2 and Maru / Serral share first place
I Don t see a World where Dark is ranked lower than Mvp
I'm a big Dark fan, and I cannot even in the most fanboy of headspace ever put him above Rogue in the GOAT conversation. I couldn't put him over Inno or Zest either but I could at least come up with some reasons why he might be considered for it.
If Dark was going to be on this list it should have been instead of TY or Rain.
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France12803 Posts
On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
It's because he admitted of mostly only practicing seriously when zerg is OP while the other zergs didn't; but he was still the best zerg in the world at several points
Rogue is probably #1 GOAT but "merely" top 5 "BOAT", which is still good
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United States1852 Posts
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On February 27 2024 18:57 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. It's because he admitted of mostly only practicing seriously when zerg is OP while the other zergs didn't; but he was still the best zerg in the world at several points Rogue is probably #1 GOAT but "merely" top 5 "BOAT", which is still good
Wow! I actually never thought of it before, but now that you mentioned it...
Two of Rogue's biggest trophies were snatched during the period where everyone with 20/20 hindsight agrees zerg was OP, right? Serral's latest big win was after (let's count) 11 nerfs directed at zerg, and banelings and infestor ate nerf hammers to the face? His prior WC win was also only two years ago. Dang, that does not bode well for the "Rogue best resume" narrative, at all...
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On February 27 2024 17:29 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 17:21 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 17:00 Perceivere wrote:On February 27 2024 16:48 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 10:41 Waxangel wrote:
Personally I still think Rogue CLEARLY has the greatest career resume of all time.
But I pushed Serral ahead of him to #1 GOAT recently because his resume now comes close enough-ish with world championship #3, and the aura-of-terror factor that's persisted since second-half 2018 has just become historically ridiculous (based on how other pros speak about him, how he's perceived in the community, etc). Same, Rogue has the best resume, Serral is better though Serral's resume is far better, even if you only count high placements and 1st placements. If you count the amount of bad runs (low placements), the gap widens much further in Serral's favor. Counting only wins and not severe fails is silly, but even by that silly metric, Serral is still far ahead. Serral didn't have to "slack off" or "hide builds/strategies" (to nearly the same degree as Rogue) to prepare for big tournaments to win those big tournaments. He puts almost all of his cards on the table for all to see, all year-round, and then still runs over everybody. That's not something Rogue could remotely pull off; or if he could, he certainly didn't show it. How is his resume better? He won the same amount of World Championships, but Rogue also won GSL, and some other tournaments, while Serral won a few EU tournaments / Homestory cups that don't matter much as far as resume go (otherwise TaeJa would be a GOAT candidate) I mean, I was already telling tl.net that Serral was the best zerg in the world back in 2018 and people thought I was trolling, but his resume is far from being as good as Rogue This is an example of what I've been talking about. You say "some other tournaments" but refuse to enumerate them, while Serral's myriad region-locked wins and long string of HSCs are just "a few." And then purposefully leaving out all the other global premiere wins and high standings I listed in my reply to Wax: "Serral: Same big threes (WCs) as Rogue; two Master's Coliseums; ESL masters wins over Clem, Trap (x2), Gumiho, and Stats; single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; two GSL v TW; Teamliquid Starleague 9; too many 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place premieres to even count; and finally, I know many official writers here don't think much of the region-locked cups, but the shit ton (8 to be exact) of those wins where he went through many Code S-level EU players should at least amount to something?? Do these writers really think that eight tournaments where he had to go through players like Elazer, Heromarine, Showtime, Neeb, Clem, and Reynor really don't even amount to a single GSL win, where players don't even have to contend with Clem, Reynor, and Serral???" No one said Taeja would be a GOAT candidate based on three HSC wins. lol It is all the accolades combined. You are purposefully ignoring a shit ton of achievements because you arbitrarily throw them in the "insignificant" bin, but the fact is not only are they each not as insignificant as you think, but also the sheer volume of them together is far more than you're willing to accept, because it doesn't fit your narrative.
Have to hard agree with Perceivere here.
I used to say that Serral didn't have many achievements, other than some WCS global finals and GSL vs the Worlds. Which are great ofc, but GSL vs the World is below a Code S, and to me he hadn't surpassed Rogue or Maru's, cus I didn't weigh his WCS EU season wins much at all.
However... in the last few years Serral has racked up an insane amount of T1 and T2 tournament wins, and more WC or WC-tier wins (including the Katowice just now). It really isn't just "a few" EU wins and HSCs, saying so is really a criminal understatement even worse to me than people saying that Taeja winning all those weekenders didn't mean much. Considering that absolutely the top KRs were competing in those tournaments that Serral won, whereas you could argue that Taeja didn't have to beat many top Code S players in his.
Winning a ESL Master / ESL Season final vs T1 players like Trap and other Code S KRs competing, with a GSL size prize pool, isn't nothing. ESL season finals are supposed to be a step above GSL - not in difficulty perhaps, but definitely in terms of "mattering", and lead into the ESL Global Finals. Whereas GSL is just a regional. A very difficult regional yes, but a regional as of recent years. This is exactly the kind of KR bias I'm talking about that TL leans towards compared to other SC2 communities, understandably ofc. Other SC2 communities are pretty unanimous about recognizing Serral as the GOAT and don't hold this nostalgic weight for Starleagues/GSL.
Maru and Rogue would not have been able to pull off what Serral has since 2018. Serral is in a tier of his own, he is an anomaly that likely no other SC player BW or SC2 will replicate other than Flash, and it's not likely we will ever see a player of that calibre again unless maybe SC3 becomes a thing.
There is simply no real evidence that Maru and Rogue would have been able to, due to their losses, relative inconsistency, much much lower winrate vs other top players, and their H2H vs Serral himself. Serral however, has all the evidence going for him that if he did compete in KR, he would have most likely performed better than Maru and Rogue, assuming that he was able to move and adjust to life in KR.
Serral racking 3 WC tier events (including the recent Katowice) and ESL Masters events (which are the season finales and supposed to be a step above GSL and should be counted at the least in the same tier as GSL), which puts him comparative to Maru and Rogue already, and then you throw in all these other HSC tournaments, Master's Coliseum, GSL vs the World, etc. that he won that only pad his resume up even more... that's what makes him the GOAT. He's in a different "class" as people might say.
It isn't anything close to Taeja's situation, where he lacked WC wins, and T1 or Starleague wins. Serral has every thing else, PLUS all those T1/T2 weekender wins. Taeja's achievements alone already put him still in a top 15-20. Now add the WCs/GSL tier events that Maru and Rogue won, Flash's level of dominance/winrate, and you have Serral.
Just for comparison - MVP got #4 on this list, and many people here seem to agree with that. Yet he had much worse losses and inconsistency than Serral. You didn't see MVP get Top 2-4 at every tournament for several years. Heck, he only played for 3 and only had 1 truly dominant year. He even had some sus losses or games vs foreigners. You would see him even get knocked out of Code S for a time and didn't look so hot in Code A.
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On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:
single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation;
Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously?
Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players.
Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no?
C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
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On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
Not even when he won GSL ST, IEM Shanghai and Blizzcon back-to-back-to-back?
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Great article! He may be #3 on the list, but #1 player in my filthy cheesey Zerg heart.
Rogue had a combination of clutch, genius prep and straight-up clean skill that could make even the best look silly.
On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency.
Wut.
Sure he lacked consistency, but on his A-game he made top players look bad. He didn't happen to win, he embarrassed some of the best talents to ever touch this game.
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On February 27 2024 19:07 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 18:57 Poopi wrote:On February 27 2024 18:52 RPR_Tempest wrote:
Agreed that Rogue might have the all-time greatest career, but isn't the all-time greatest player.
Apart from the Bo7 thing, he felt like a guy that was real good and just happened to win. He never felt, like, above the rest of the pack. I think the biggest knock against Rogue's GOAT case is that there was never any point in his career that he felt like the best player in the world. The guy you point to and say "He's favoured against anybody." Just a really weird lack of aura most likely caused by his lack of consistency. It's because he admitted of mostly only practicing seriously when zerg is OP while the other zergs didn't; but he was still the best zerg in the world at several points Rogue is probably #1 GOAT but "merely" top 5 "BOAT", which is still good Wow! I actually never thought of it before, but now that you mentioned it... Two of Rogue's biggest trophies were snatched during the period where everyone with 20/20 hindsight agrees zerg was OP, right? Serral's latest big win was after (let's count) 11 nerfs directed at zerg, and banelings and infestor ate nerf hammers to the face? His prior WC win was also only two years ago. Dang, that does not bode well for the "Rogue best resume" narrative, at all...
Alternatively you could also say Serral won a tournament after 4 big Ghost nerf and numerous nerfs to Protoss
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On February 27 2024 19:23 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:
single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no? C'mon, adding these just weakens your point.
Bro you can't be in good faith be saying this can you? That was literally a couple of the long list of achievements that were mentioned, from small achievements to huge achievements. How is mentioning more achievements hurting Serral? Are you really trying to imply that? When Maru and Rogue haven't racked up those kinds of wins?
Even if a HSC is below a GSL and WC obviously, it's still an achievement. It takes time, energy, and it exposes yourself to potential bad losses. If Maru and Rogue want to focus on KR tournies and GSL/WC then that's fine. But Serral is here focusing on his region, WC, AND also winning all these other events. How does that weaken the argument?
And you totally ignored the players that he won HSCs over: Reynor, Ty, Innovation, etc. These players that many would consider Top 5-15 GOATs. Sure it doesn't matter as much as a GSL. But what's their excuse for not winning? Why does Serral choose to win? Why DOES he win? He just cared and the others didn't, is that what you're implying? And if you think the others were trying at least somewhat, then why does it hurt to list more wins?
I don't know what your general stance is or what your personal list of GOATs is. But reading stuff like this is really mind boggling.
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United States33367 Posts
On February 27 2024 19:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 19:23 jy_9876543210 wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:
single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no? C'mon, adding these just weakens your point. Bro you can't be in good faith be saying this can you? That was literally a couple of the long list of achievements that were mentioned, from small achievements to huge achievements. How is mentioning more achievements hurting Serral? Are you really trying to imply that? When Maru and Rogue haven't racked up those kinds of wins? Even if a HSC is below a GSL and WC obviously, it's still an achievement. It takes time, energy, and it exposes yourself to potential bad losses. If Maru and Rogue want to focus on KR tournies and GSL/WC then that's fine. But Serral is here focusing on his region, WC, AND also winning all these other events. How does that weaken the argument?
I mean, c'mon, how are you invoking bad faith when you tried to shove in a huge variety of different events into the same bucket, and afterward argued "BTW they were actually ALL kinda important."
You gotta try harder and not just use random debate words man.
And this is coming from someone that thinks that the AGGREGATE of Serral's non-Tier1 career is meaningful; we just gotta express it in a more good faith manner 
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On February 27 2024 19:39 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2024 19:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 27 2024 19:23 jy_9876543210 wrote:On February 27 2024 15:21 Perceivere wrote:
single-handedly carried Finland to #1 in 2019 Nation Wars; homestory cups over Reynor, Clem (x2), TY, Solar, and Innovation; Nation Wars? Homestory cups? Seriously? Marinelord AKed Korean team one time. I guess he should be the GOAT, because he's above all korean players. Oh, BTW, he also AKed Finland team in the same tournament. He carried team France to championship. So he's definitely the GOAT, no? C'mon, adding these just weakens your point. Bro you can't be in good faith be saying this can you? That was literally a couple of the long list of achievements that were mentioned, from small achievements to huge achievements. How is mentioning more achievements hurting Serral? Are you really trying to imply that? When Maru and Rogue haven't racked up those kinds of wins? Even if a HSC is below a GSL and WC obviously, it's still an achievement. It takes time, energy, and it exposes yourself to potential bad losses. If Maru and Rogue want to focus on KR tournies and GSL/WC then that's fine. But Serral is here focusing on his region, WC, AND also winning all these other events. How does that weaken the argument? I mean, c'mon, how are you invoking bad faith when you tried to shove in a huge variety of different events into the same bucket, and afterward argued "BTW they were actually ALL kinda important." You gotta try harder and not just use random debate words man
I didn't mean to shove things into the same bucket, if it comes off that way somewhere (and I'm not sure where but I'll edit it if i know where cus I though i made it clear i see some as smaller and some as bigger achievements). My point is just that pointing to one of the less impressive achievements and saying "you can't think they should be GOAT cus of that right?" is dumb and in bad faith, when Perceivere was listing a lot of other achievements that were more important. How much these achievements weigh is another discussion ofc, but Serral participating in all these other smaller or weekender tournaments that Rogue/Maru don't should be considered.
Meanwhile, definitely no one is arguing that MKP should be GOAT solely for all'killing a finland team and KR team.
I personally think Serral is the GOAT and his achievements outweigh Rogue and Maru's, but it wasn't my main point. Just that people throw away his smaller wins while buffing them up or trying to count every little one for other players like MVP.
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EPT
