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What we really need now is the definition of a "moment" and a ""few". A moment used to be an actual unit of measurement which was defined as 90 seconds. Modern usage of the word is more vague, but at least we have a starting point. "Few" is frustratingly more vague since nobody seems to know exactly what it means and it can change based on the context of the scales involved. Personally, when someone says "a few thousand" I take it to mean more than three thousand, but less than ten thousand. So, my interpretation of Miz's post is that the next article will be out in less than 10 thousand intervals of 90 seconds, which would be less than 11 days.
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On March 15 2024 12:20 Kitai wrote:
What we really need now is the definition of a "moment" and a ""few". A moment used to be an actual unit of measurement which was defined as 90 seconds. Modern usage of the word is more vague, but at least we have a starting point. "Few" is frustratingly more vague since nobody seems to know exactly what it means and it can change based on the context of the scales involved. Personally, when someone says "a few thousand" I take it to mean more than three thousand, but less than ten thousand. So, my interpretation of Miz's post is that the next article will be out in less than 10 thousand intervals of 90 seconds, which would be less than 11 days.
I like my calculation better on the sole reason that the timeframe is shorter
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Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
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United States1919 Posts
On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites.
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On March 16 2024 03:02 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites.
It happens when an highly anticipated series of articles comes out with unusually long intervals between them. People's imagination runs wild when they are waiting.
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United States1919 Posts
On March 16 2024 03:15 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 03:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites. It happens when an highly anticipated series of articles comes out with unusually long intervals between them. People's imagination runs wild when they are waiting.
Usually the answer is a lot of editing. All ten drafts were done prior to any of them being released, but I think Wax and I streamlined the process a lot as we went. Formatting wise, I think we made a lot of progress across the series.
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On March 16 2024 03:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 03:15 Nasigil wrote:On March 16 2024 03:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites. It happens when an highly anticipated series of articles comes out with unusually long intervals between them. People's imagination runs wild when they are waiting. Usually the answer is a lot of editing. All ten drafts were done prior to any of them being released, but I think Wax and I streamlined the process a lot as we went. Formatting wise, I think we made a lot of progress across the series.
This is so interesting. When did work/research on this begin?
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United States1919 Posts
On March 16 2024 05:09 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 03:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 03:15 Nasigil wrote:On March 16 2024 03:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites. It happens when an highly anticipated series of articles comes out with unusually long intervals between them. People's imagination runs wild when they are waiting. Usually the answer is a lot of editing. All ten drafts were done prior to any of them being released, but I think Wax and I streamlined the process a lot as we went. Formatting wise, I think we made a lot of progress across the series. This is so interesting. When did work/research on this begin?
About a year ago.
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On March 16 2024 05:30 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2024 05:09 Pandain wrote:On March 16 2024 03:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 03:15 Nasigil wrote:On March 16 2024 03:02 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 16 2024 02:47 Nasigil wrote:
Here's my theory. Miz has Maru at #1, but Serral 4:0 Maru in recent Katowice finals threw a wrench into the writing process. He delayed the last two articles because he wanted to articulate in more details to further strengthen his argument why Maru is still better despite the lopsided h2h record against Serral and having zero world champion titles.
If Maru won the recent Katowice, the Maru > Serral opinion will be a much easier argument and we probably have already seen the final two articles by now.
It's almost funny that people think that we are writing these on the fly while also doing previews/recaps/stuff for other sites. It happens when an highly anticipated series of articles comes out with unusually long intervals between them. People's imagination runs wild when they are waiting. Usually the answer is a lot of editing. All ten drafts were done prior to any of them being released, but I think Wax and I streamlined the process a lot as we went. Formatting wise, I think we made a lot of progress across the series. This is so interesting. When did work/research on this begin? About a year ago.
Just wanted to log in and say you're doing great work man. You definitely follow SC2 history much more closely and longer than some fanboys who only watch recent games and are easily influenced by biased casters.
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On March 02 2024 05:10 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 00:52 LeFaucheurishere wrote:
[quote]
But then again, there are premier tournaments and "premier tournaments". In my opinion, you can't compare cheap premier tournaments that Maru won that are onlines such as king of battles or DH last chance and actual offline tournaments such as IEM shangai or GSL ST. Moreover, the ping issues are a real problem with online tournaments.
If we only take premier offline tournaments :
Maru has : 1 OSL ; 1 SSL; 7 GSL ; 1 GSL ST ; 1 WESG for a total of 11 premier offline tournaments with only one international (and the weakest).
Rogue has : 4 GSL (and not semi online GSLs) ; 2 GSL ST ; 1 IEM shangai ; 2 IEM katowice and 1 blizzcon for a total of 10 premier offline tournaments, 4 international titles and 3 world championships.
This is clearly not the same weight. Not even to talk about the fact that Maru ended up winning a lot of GSLs after Rogue's retirement and after most of the korean scene retired (Zest Trap Innovation Rogue TY etc.)
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won. Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying. I hope I don't blow your mind with this. But, how skilled people were in 2013 versus the present really has no bearing on anything if you're willing to be objective. You don't play against a machine in StarCraft II (unless it's Inno), you play against the other player. If those two players are of are equal skill, it doesn't matter if it's 2010, 2013,2015, 2020, 2023, they still have to play at their best to beat their opponent's best. You can argue that no one knew how to play the game when Mvp won his championships, but he was working with the same information, units and tools as everyone else and he was kicking the sh*t out of them. Once you get into the subjective realm of making direct comparisons across dozens of balance patches, multiple expansions and as many as 14 years, you've already undermined your own position.
I don't agree, if Nestea just hit a level of play that was demonstrably shown to be the peak of SC2, and no one since even came close. Then he would be in the fore for the claim of GOAT, right?
On March 03 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +Here Blizzard leaves in the 2007 Blizzcon champion Savior. So Life is out, but Savior is in, seems pretty strange and they probably only removed Life due to pressure. In the end it doesn't matter what they say, or even what the court says, I can still disagree with it. Like I can disagree with having gambling be illegal in S-Korea. It's illegal to smoke marijuana most places, but at least in the western world, people don't really care about it. Law does not always allign with ethics, which makes sense because you change laws over time. IEM also chooses to keep Yoda as a champion, which imo is a good thing. Also if you wipe away history then you also wipe away the lessons of history. Blizzard vacated Saviors title aswell officially. And sure, you can disagree with anything and have an opinion, like anyone can. My opinion for example is that Life is an overrated player who owns his entire legacy to his matchfixing, otherwise you would know him today as the guy Serral constantly wipes the floor with. In the end though, this isn't about opinion, it is about facts. And the fact is that he is an idiot who threw games for money, causing gigantic damage. Done. Not much else to say about it. As an addendum though: Life isn't "erased" from history, you can clearly see who won the 2014 World Championship Finals at BlizzCon - he just doesn't hold the title anymore. Which aligns with the roman system of "Damnatio Memoriae". This was a harsh punishment that could fell upon traitors, in which case they would get "erased" from public knowledge. Like their names would be carved out from stone plates and stuff. But the funny thing about the Damnatio Memoriae is, that we always know, 2000 years later, who it was about. Because the romans wanted it that way. Everyone should know who did something so bad their memory got "erased".
You can form opinions based on facts.
Your statement about him being an idiot harming the scene, is your opinion.
I didn't know about this "Damnatio Memoriae," but it sounds to me paradoxical to erase a name from history, so that he would be remembered. And I doubt that is what ppl are trying to do with Life.
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Northern Ireland26556 Posts
On March 22 2024 19:51 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2024 05:10 Mizenhauer wrote:On March 02 2024 04:59 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 04:47 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 04:32 Perceivere wrote:On March 02 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 03:23 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 03:00 Charoisaur wrote:On March 02 2024 02:10 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2024 01:52 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
Rogue has the WC cups over Maru, Maru has the Starleague wins during the Kespa era over Rogue which were more difficult to win than any tournament Rogue won.
Discounting Maru's latest GSL wins seems weird considering Rogue won GSLs in 2021 and 2022 when they were also way easier to win than during 2018 If you compare Marus run through OSL and Rogues through Katowice 2020 - are you seriously saying Marus run was clearly so much harder that you put that OSL far above Katowice? Feels like Rogue had to atleast win against double the amount of S-class players compared to Maru, who actually had a pretty easy run until the semifinals (and then finished impressive against Inno and Rain ofc). It's not only about the specific path of players you faced but also about the general field of players. The problem nowadays is that the gap between the top players and the rest is so large that someone like Dark can still on a bad day beat everyone except like Serral, Clem or Maru (At DH Atlanta he actually admitted he was in poor condition in the interview before the final). If the field of players is stronger it makes it much more unlikely that something like this happens because Dark might get knocked out by a slightly less accomplished player in better form. Thus, in the latter stages of the tournament you would be basically guaranteed to only face in-shape players. Case in point: You surely agree that GSL nowadays is worth less than international events due to Serral, Clem and Reynor missing ... although there's no guarantee you'd face one of them in an international event like with herO during his DH Atlanta run. But saying that tournament was comparatively 'easy' to win and worth less would be of course dumb because he faced the most in-shape players at that event. I generally agree with you that just going through the "road" of tournaments isn't particularly useful, not a fan of it. "Ohhh, but he had such an easy road"...yes, but in the end, that guy still survived while 15, 23 or even 31 other players didn't. My point however in this case is that the level of play in Katowice 2020 wasn't bad, it was in fact enormously high (as it is usually at Katowice and Blizzcon). So outright saying an OSL in 2013 was THAT much more difficult to win than a World Cup feels odd. In fact, I still believe WCS and to a lesser extend Katowice are the two hardest tournaments to win, even at the prime of GSL. For one, and that is of course a very personal opinion, I rate weekenders higher and more difficult to win than preparation based tournaments, since coaches and the entire team structure doesn't factor in as much. But even more important: Lots of people have won a GSL. Players who you wouldn't even think about when threatened with a gun have won GSL trophies. But you are hard-pressed to find forgettable World Champions. YoDa maybe if you want to count that IEM Grand Final in Hannover (which I don't)? Genius if you count the very first BlizzCon Invitational? Polt if you are a GSL-only tryhard? Oliveira if you are a non-romantic? Again, don't get me wrong: it is an incredible feat to win GSL (or atleast it was). But so many great GSL-heavyhitters never won a World Cup, while (depending if you only mean WCS or include Katowice aswell) alot of World Champions have won a GSL.
actually no, not a lot of world champions won a GSL. PartinG didn't win one. sOs didn't win one. Reynor didn't win one. Oliveira didn't win one. Serral of course didn't win one although he never played in it. In general though I agree that world championships are worth more than a GSL but comparing across era is difficult because I value all tournaments won between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players. The skill level is a different discussion entirely but imo it doesn't make sense to compare skill across eras because the players today built on the knowledge that was created by past players. "...between 2013-2016 a lot more due to the higher number of top level players." I wouldn't say "a lot." A lot more low-mid-tier code S players, maybe, but only a couple truly (3) top players: Hydra, Life, and Rain. Many protoss better than Rain stuck around. All of the top terrans stayed. Many zergs kept going who were at around Hydra and Life's level around the period where they stopped: Solar, Dark, soO, Rogue, and DRG, although some of these zergs later fell off top status eventually also. The vast, vast majority of top code S players stayed. People have been judging Life's talent based on too little information. Toward the end of his career, there were signs of other zergs (soO, Dark, Hydra) beginning to eclipse him, based on Aligulac. I think he might have continued to make big waves like Dark and Rogue, but whether he'd be an outlier is an unknown. There's no evidence he would've pulled a Serral for 6 years in a row. His biggest success occurred while both he and the game were still very young, where many wild card factors were at play. He was more of a consistent performer, rather than a builds/strategy pop-offs wizard like Rogue, which suggests if he had kept around, he would've most likely enjoyed Dark's level of sucess, more or less. MVP is even harder to speculate, because he dropped off even much sooner after a long period of mid performances. Again, I must add the caveat that we don't really know how many of his wins were legit. His match-fixing has called into question everything he's "achieved." You underestimate the low-mid tier players, they may have not won so much but could still on a good day beat every player in the world which made winning tournaments considerably harder. Granted from 2016 to 2017 the difference isn't that large, hence the cutoff-point is a bit arbitrary, but with each subsequent year the talent pool got smaller and smaller I'm not underestimating them. I specifically said early that even these players could pull a Scarlett/Oliveira. Anomalies don't determine an era. Justifying that Maru's early accomplishments during an era of relatively low skill, and less developed game, were better quality than WCs in a much more developed stage of the game, where players are all far more skilled, based on this flimsy reasoning of "there were a lot more low-mid-tier players" is kinda funny is all I'm saying. I hope I don't blow your mind with this. But, how skilled people were in 2013 versus the present really has no bearing on anything if you're willing to be objective. You don't play against a machine in StarCraft II (unless it's Inno), you play against the other player. If those two players are of are equal skill, it doesn't matter if it's 2010, 2013,2015, 2020, 2023, they still have to play at their best to beat their opponent's best. You can argue that no one knew how to play the game when Mvp won his championships, but he was working with the same information, units and tools as everyone else and he was kicking the sh*t out of them. Once you get into the subjective realm of making direct comparisons across dozens of balance patches, multiple expansions and as many as 14 years, you've already undermined your own position. I don't agree, if Nestea just hit a level of play that was demonstrably shown to be the peak of SC2, and no one since even came close. Then he would be in the fore for the claim of GOAT, right? Show nested quote +On March 03 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://youtu.be/IMjpaLLemMI?t=400 Here Blizzard leaves in the 2007 Blizzcon champion Savior. So Life is out, but Savior is in, seems pretty strange and they probably only removed Life due to pressure. In the end it doesn't matter what they say, or even what the court says, I can still disagree with it. Like I can disagree with having gambling be illegal in S-Korea. It's illegal to smoke marijuana most places, but at least in the western world, people don't really care about it. Law does not always allign with ethics, which makes sense because you change laws over time. IEM also chooses to keep Yoda as a champion, which imo is a good thing. Also if you wipe away history then you also wipe away the lessons of history. https://twitter.com/esportstarcraft/status/1057705930698059776Blizzard vacated Saviors title aswell officially. And sure, you can disagree with anything and have an opinion, like anyone can. My opinion for example is that Life is an overrated player who owns his entire legacy to his matchfixing, otherwise you would know him today as the guy Serral constantly wipes the floor with. In the end though, this isn't about opinion, it is about facts. And the fact is that he is an idiot who threw games for money, causing gigantic damage. Done. Not much else to say about it. As an addendum though: Life isn't "erased" from history, you can clearly see who won the 2014 World Championship Finals at BlizzCon - he just doesn't hold the title anymore. Which aligns with the roman system of "Damnatio Memoriae". This was a harsh punishment that could fell upon traitors, in which case they would get "erased" from public knowledge. Like their names would be carved out from stone plates and stuff. But the funny thing about the Damnatio Memoriae is, that we always know, 2000 years later, who it was about. Because the romans wanted it that way. Everyone should know who did something so bad their memory got "erased". You can form opinions based on facts. Your statement about him being an idiot harming the scene, is your opinion. I didn't know about this "Damnatio Memoriae," but it sounds to me paradoxical to erase a name from history, so that he would be remembered. And I doubt that is what ppl are trying to do with Life.
Harming the scene is basically as close to immutable truth as one can get, as to what degree well that’s absolutely open to interpretation.
As far as I understand it it’s not especially paradoxical. The Romans knew that actually erasing someone from history was rather difficult to actually achieve, but that someone merited the attempt was something in and of itself and sent a certain message.
A modern equivalent would be the controversy against removing certain statues. Getting rid of them isn’t really erasing history, more a comment like ‘we’d rather not have a prominent statue of a slave trader in Bristol’ or whatever
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Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat
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On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat
Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue.
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On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue.
rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think 
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On March 23 2024 10:06 jy_9876543210 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue. rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think
Funny if Rogue starts playing competitively next weeks, and suddenly wins the Code S and World Championship title, would his ranking be affected? I don't think so.
The lack of presence of Rogue in these two years back didn't seem to hurt his GOAT ranking place so much that they would still confidently put Serral ahead of him. Serral zealot fans coupled with "some" caster bias will not budge if Rogue is ahead of him in any achievement in coming years onward as they believe so just like they thought Maru shouldn't in the first place.
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On March 23 2024 15:14 swarminfestor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 10:06 jy_9876543210 wrote:On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue. rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think Funny if Rogue starts playing competitively next weeks, and suddenly wins the Code S and World Championship title, would his ranking be affected? I don't think so. The lack of presence of Rogue in these two years back didn't seem to hurt his GOAT ranking place so much that they would still confidently put Serral ahead of him. Serral zealot fans coupled with "some" caster bias will not budge if Rogue is ahead of him in any achievement in coming years onward as they believe so just like they thought Maru shouldn't in the first place.
At least for me, if Rogue won a Code S and a WC, it would make me easily put him back above Maru, and have a strong argument vs Serral for GOAT (like within a 40:60 or 60:40 range)
Because before Rogue left for military, I had Rogue slightly over Maru (highest WC achievement with 3x wins, and highest # of GSLs won at 4, tied with Maru), and Maru racked up 3 weaker GSLs with Rogue also gone. So Rogue coming back to win Code S without Maru would show that yeah he's still got it. And if he gets a 4th WC win then Serral only has 3 WC tier win (since Kato isn't officially a WC), so he has at least 1 metric above Serral. And it would show that Rogue and Serral are still competitive for who is the most successful LotV player, since Serral finished his small dip in performance and started being really strong in 2021-22 right before Rogue left.
So if Rogue is back and gives Serral a run for his money, it definitely would make him a very serious contender for #1 in my eyes, even if his winrate isn't as high as Serral's.
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Northern Ireland26556 Posts
On March 24 2024 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2024 15:14 swarminfestor wrote:On March 23 2024 10:06 jy_9876543210 wrote:On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue. rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think Funny if Rogue starts playing competitively next weeks, and suddenly wins the Code S and World Championship title, would his ranking be affected? I don't think so. The lack of presence of Rogue in these two years back didn't seem to hurt his GOAT ranking place so much that they would still confidently put Serral ahead of him. Serral zealot fans coupled with "some" caster bias will not budge if Rogue is ahead of him in any achievement in coming years onward as they believe so just like they thought Maru shouldn't in the first place. At least for me, if Rogue won a Code S and a WC, it would make me easily put him back above Maru, and have a strong argument vs Serral for GOAT (like within a 40:60 or 60:40 range) Because before Rogue left for military, I had Rogue slightly over Maru (highest WC achievement with 3x wins, and highest # of GSLs won at 4, tied with Maru), and Maru racked up 3 weaker GSLs with Rogue also gone. So Rogue coming back to win Code S without Maru would show that yeah he's still got it. And if he gets a 4th WC win then Serral only has 3 WC tier win (since Kato isn't officially a WC), so he has at least 1 metric above Serral. And it would show that Rogue and Serral are still competitive for who is the most successful LotV player, since Serral finished his small dip in performance and started being really strong in 2021-22 right before Rogue left. So if Rogue is back and gives Serral a run for his money, it definitely would make him a very serious contender for #1 in my eyes, even if his winrate isn't as high as Serral's.
Yeah it's certainly a close call all round.
I had him at 3 personally because Maru comfortably outdid him in the strongest era of the game, and Serral at least in consistency did so in this 2018-onwards era. So to place Rogue at #1 overall for me is a bit odd, but nothing crazy, they are slim margins after all.
I think we're at the stage that even if Rogue did come back and add a few champs, the decline has/will really have set in, so I'm not sure it moves the needle all that much. To be fair I'm not just applying that to Rogue, I think if Serral did go to Code S and take one, it's maybe too late in the day to significantly alter my perception of him all that much too.
With the GOAT debate I really think it comes down to what one could have done in the past rather than anything they can actually do moving forwards. Rogue's missing those statement HoTS/early Legacy individual honours from his resumé, those aren't something he can really rectify if he does come back. Serral is lacking those Starleague participations, but for me anyway the field has really contracted that, even though I still think it would be cool I don't think he'd be proving much if he went now. Certainly less than if he'd gone 5/6 years ago.
Maru can maybe move the needle if he gets that WC monkey off his back, although even if he does he's still likely to lag some of the others by at least a couple, maybe more. Plus in the interim Serral may augment his particular claim, namely just consistent numbers and general dominance. Even if Serral hadn't won Katowice he's coming off one of the most ridiculous runs of all time, and there's no sign of him particularly easing off. If Serral continues in this vein but say, Maru takes Gamers 8 I'm still not sure I'd switch them around in my personal ranking. If Maru wins another Starleague well, 8-0 in his favour over Serral isn't all that much better than 7-0.
Certain boats have been missed methinks, and I don't see em sailing back anytime soon. If Maru had had a really dominant year across the circuit outside of Code S, if Serral had been active in Code S for a while and snagged a couple + denied Maru a few. From January 2023 thru now Serral is 362–86 (80.80%) in games and 147–14 (91.30%) in matches. I don't think Maru with his injuries is capable of such a span anymore, and even if he was I mean Serral's already done it, and he may have as strong a remainder of 2024. And as mentioned before if Serral goes to Code S right now he might snag one, but it doesn't really answer the kind of question it once wouldn't have as that tournament has winded down quite a bit from where it once was.
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On March 24 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2024 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 23 2024 15:14 swarminfestor wrote:On March 23 2024 10:06 jy_9876543210 wrote:On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue. rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think Funny if Rogue starts playing competitively next weeks, and suddenly wins the Code S and World Championship title, would his ranking be affected? I don't think so. The lack of presence of Rogue in these two years back didn't seem to hurt his GOAT ranking place so much that they would still confidently put Serral ahead of him. Serral zealot fans coupled with "some" caster bias will not budge if Rogue is ahead of him in any achievement in coming years onward as they believe so just like they thought Maru shouldn't in the first place. At least for me, if Rogue won a Code S and a WC, it would make me easily put him back above Maru, and have a strong argument vs Serral for GOAT (like within a 40:60 or 60:40 range) Because before Rogue left for military, I had Rogue slightly over Maru (highest WC achievement with 3x wins, and highest # of GSLs won at 4, tied with Maru), and Maru racked up 3 weaker GSLs with Rogue also gone. So Rogue coming back to win Code S without Maru would show that yeah he's still got it. And if he gets a 4th WC win then Serral only has 3 WC tier win (since Kato isn't officially a WC), so he has at least 1 metric above Serral. And it would show that Rogue and Serral are still competitive for who is the most successful LotV player, since Serral finished his small dip in performance and started being really strong in 2021-22 right before Rogue left. So if Rogue is back and gives Serral a run for his money, it definitely would make him a very serious contender for #1 in my eyes, even if his winrate isn't as high as Serral's. Yeah it's certainly a close call all round. I had him at 3 personally because Maru comfortably outdid him in the strongest era of the game, and Serral at least in consistency did so in this 2018-onwards era. So to place Rogue at #1 overall for me is a bit odd, but nothing crazy, they are slim margins after all. I think we're at the stage that even if Rogue did come back and add a few champs, the decline has/will really have set in, so I'm not sure it moves the needle all that much. To be fair I'm not just applying that to Rogue, I think if Serral did go to Code S and take one, it's maybe too late in the day to significantly alter my perception of him all that much too. With the GOAT debate I really think it comes down to what one could have done in the past rather than anything they can actually do moving forwards. Rogue's missing those statement HoTS/early Legacy individual honours from his resumé, those aren't something he can really rectify if he does come back. Serral is lacking those Starleague participations, but for me anyway the field has really contracted that, even though I still think it would be cool I don't think he'd be proving much if he went now. Certainly less than if he'd gone 5/6 years ago. Maru can maybe move the needle if he gets that WC monkey off his back, although even if he does he's still likely to lag some of the others by at least a couple, maybe more. Plus in the interim Serral may augment his particular claim, namely just consistent numbers and general dominance. Even if Serral hadn't won Katowice he's coming off one of the most ridiculous runs of all time, and there's no sign of him particularly easing off. If Serral continues in this vein but say, Maru takes Gamers 8 I'm still not sure I'd switch them around in my personal ranking. If Maru wins another Starleague well, 8-0 in his favour over Serral isn't all that much better than 7-0. Certain boats have been missed methinks, and I don't see em sailing back anytime soon. If Maru had had a really dominant year across the circuit outside of Code S, if Serral had been active in Code S for a while and snagged a couple + denied Maru a few. From January 2023 thru now Serral is 362–86 (80.80%) in games and 147–14 (91.30%) in matches. I don't think Maru with his injuries is capable of such a span anymore, and even if he was I mean Serral's already done it, and he may have as strong a remainder of 2024. And as mentioned before if Serral goes to Code S right now he might snag one, but it doesn't really answer the kind of question it once wouldn't have as that tournament has winded down quite a bit from where it once was.
Yeah i guess that makes it a pretty good time to be having the GOAT debate, with SC2 entering its twilight for real now. Curious to see where the needle might move though once Serral/Maru have both retired and we can give things one last look!
(Also fingers crossed Microsoft gives a little love to SC2 and we're able to revive GSL and bring new interest into it. But it'd have to guarantee support for like 6-8 years minimum or something, in order for newer players to feel it's safe to invest a future into pursuing this game... since it can take a long time to get good. Plus there's also just the issue of a lack of interest RIP with little content creation, the game being old, smaller audiences and smaller glory, and Kespa/TV not being a thing anymore. It makes me sad thinking that the smaller a scene gets, the harder it'll be to regain interest.
Best case i guess is they make a SC3 that's like SC2 but a little slower and more positional/tactical like BW. I wonder how much interest that'd gain as an esport...).
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Northern Ireland26556 Posts
On March 24 2024 08:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2024 08:23 WombaT wrote:On March 24 2024 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On March 23 2024 15:14 swarminfestor wrote:On March 23 2024 10:06 jy_9876543210 wrote:On March 23 2024 09:42 Kitai wrote:On March 23 2024 03:02 Mmakorea wrote:
Don’t worry Rogue fans, ARTOSIS has Rogue as the undisputed goat Artosis literally said there is no undisputed GOAT. But if he was forced to pick he would pick Rogue. rogue is the GOAT in my eyes, I don't care what others think Funny if Rogue starts playing competitively next weeks, and suddenly wins the Code S and World Championship title, would his ranking be affected? I don't think so. The lack of presence of Rogue in these two years back didn't seem to hurt his GOAT ranking place so much that they would still confidently put Serral ahead of him. Serral zealot fans coupled with "some" caster bias will not budge if Rogue is ahead of him in any achievement in coming years onward as they believe so just like they thought Maru shouldn't in the first place. At least for me, if Rogue won a Code S and a WC, it would make me easily put him back above Maru, and have a strong argument vs Serral for GOAT (like within a 40:60 or 60:40 range) Because before Rogue left for military, I had Rogue slightly over Maru (highest WC achievement with 3x wins, and highest # of GSLs won at 4, tied with Maru), and Maru racked up 3 weaker GSLs with Rogue also gone. So Rogue coming back to win Code S without Maru would show that yeah he's still got it. And if he gets a 4th WC win then Serral only has 3 WC tier win (since Kato isn't officially a WC), so he has at least 1 metric above Serral. And it would show that Rogue and Serral are still competitive for who is the most successful LotV player, since Serral finished his small dip in performance and started being really strong in 2021-22 right before Rogue left. So if Rogue is back and gives Serral a run for his money, it definitely would make him a very serious contender for #1 in my eyes, even if his winrate isn't as high as Serral's. Yeah it's certainly a close call all round. I had him at 3 personally because Maru comfortably outdid him in the strongest era of the game, and Serral at least in consistency did so in this 2018-onwards era. So to place Rogue at #1 overall for me is a bit odd, but nothing crazy, they are slim margins after all. I think we're at the stage that even if Rogue did come back and add a few champs, the decline has/will really have set in, so I'm not sure it moves the needle all that much. To be fair I'm not just applying that to Rogue, I think if Serral did go to Code S and take one, it's maybe too late in the day to significantly alter my perception of him all that much too. With the GOAT debate I really think it comes down to what one could have done in the past rather than anything they can actually do moving forwards. Rogue's missing those statement HoTS/early Legacy individual honours from his resumé, those aren't something he can really rectify if he does come back. Serral is lacking those Starleague participations, but for me anyway the field has really contracted that, even though I still think it would be cool I don't think he'd be proving much if he went now. Certainly less than if he'd gone 5/6 years ago. Maru can maybe move the needle if he gets that WC monkey off his back, although even if he does he's still likely to lag some of the others by at least a couple, maybe more. Plus in the interim Serral may augment his particular claim, namely just consistent numbers and general dominance. Even if Serral hadn't won Katowice he's coming off one of the most ridiculous runs of all time, and there's no sign of him particularly easing off. If Serral continues in this vein but say, Maru takes Gamers 8 I'm still not sure I'd switch them around in my personal ranking. If Maru wins another Starleague well, 8-0 in his favour over Serral isn't all that much better than 7-0. Certain boats have been missed methinks, and I don't see em sailing back anytime soon. If Maru had had a really dominant year across the circuit outside of Code S, if Serral had been active in Code S for a while and snagged a couple + denied Maru a few. From January 2023 thru now Serral is 362–86 (80.80%) in games and 147–14 (91.30%) in matches. I don't think Maru with his injuries is capable of such a span anymore, and even if he was I mean Serral's already done it, and he may have as strong a remainder of 2024. And as mentioned before if Serral goes to Code S right now he might snag one, but it doesn't really answer the kind of question it once wouldn't have as that tournament has winded down quite a bit from where it once was. Yeah i guess that makes it a pretty good time to be having the GOAT debate, with SC2 entering its twilight for real now. Curious to see where the needle might move though once Serral/Maru have both retired and we can give things one last look! (Also fingers crossed Microsoft gives a little love to SC2 and we're able to revive GSL and bring new interest into it. But it'd have to guarantee support for like 6-8 years minimum or something, in order for newer players to feel it's safe to invest a future into pursuing this game... since it can take a long time to get good. Plus there's also just the issue of a lack of interest RIP with little content creation, the game being old, smaller audiences and smaller glory, and Kespa/TV not being a thing anymore. It makes me sad thinking that the smaller a scene gets, the harder it'll be to regain interest. Best case i guess is they make a SC3 that's like SC2 but a little slower and more positional/tactical like BW. I wonder how much interest that'd gain as an esport...).
Aye, the pessimist in me feels even if such support did come it might be too little, too late, especially as Korea is concerned.
I think the Saudi money is basically immaterial in terms of the wider game's health. If you'd had that money a few years ago and distributed in other ways than basically making another big tournament for the game's top players, maybe it has at least some impact. Or if GSL had turned to things like crowdfunding a little earlier in the day
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