• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:54
CET 18:54
KST 02:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
The Road to Katowice - 2022/23 Retrospective21Disasterpiece Theater: Soulkey vs sOs (2013-05-21)11WTL 2022 Winter - Regular Season Awards + Wrap-up24WTL Winter - The 2v2 Tour25WTL 2022 Winter - Regular Season Finale7
Community News
Rex leaves ONSYDE, Ryung joins4[BSL16] - RO16 Group Stage11ESL Open Cup #159: herO, Spirit, Dark win5WardiTV 2023 Opens (Monthly)1IEM Katowice 2023 - Hosts & Commentators34
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.11 Patch Released - Balance Changes Interview with RuFF at Dreamhack Atlanta 2022 IEM Katowice 2023 - Hosts & Commentators Serral leaves ENCE, joins Basilisk Rex leaves ONSYDE, Ryung joins
Tourneys
NorCal StarFest I [Alpha Pro Series] MaxPax vs ByuN WardiTV 2023 Opens (Monthly) $5000 #PassionCraft Knockout TournyCraft free tourny management web app
Strategy
Custom Maps
[A] (Minigames) Raynor Party [A] [TPS RPG] Transformers: Open World (WIP) Work In Progress Melee Maps
External Content
Mutation # 354 Media Blackout Mutation # 353 Hostile Territory Mutation # 352 Railroad Switch Mutation # 351 Assembly of Vengeance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Custom Campaign Upload UMS maps by GrizzleSyndrome BW General Discussion SC Gathering 2023 Stockholm 13-14th may!
Tourneys
New Worlds Map Contest III: All Submissions (VOTE HERE) [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL16] - RO16 Group A - Saturday 18:00 CET Sanpao StarLeague Spring Cup S4 : Korea
Strategy
Marine rate of fire Simple Questions, Simple Answers Valkyrie dmg formula? 2v2 Spell Combos
Other Games
General Games
Final Fantasy XIV Fire Emblem Destiny 2 - PC/Xbox/PS4 Frost Giant announce Stormgate World of Warcraft Classic
Dota 2
[DPC 23] Tour 1 Discussion Official Dota and Chess General Discussion
League of Legends
[Spring 2023] LoL E-sports General Discussion LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net [Patch Notes] Release General Discussion
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments
Hearthstone
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Coronavirus and You US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Flash Fan Club The GoOdy Fan Club The TY Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [TV] HBO The Last Of Us series Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2022 - 2023 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2022 2021 NFL/CFB Season NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
FIFA World Cup 2022 - Knockout Stage FIFA World Cup Qatar 2022 Thread
Tech Support
Left control suddenly mutes volume Red text blurry and funky blue on black text Which Gaming Laptop Should I Buy?
TL Community
Ask TL Staff Anything Happy Birthday R1CH! Is there a SQSA thread for this site?
Blogs
Hosting/casting tournies for t…
Trozz
It's that time of year YET A…
Umpteen
I'm still around doodling and…
Glider
Someone Crashed my Plane …
micronesia
A spiritual journey th…
mewithoutDrew
The Kitty Arcade Saga
MrBitter
My Goals for 2023
DeNikSSB
State of StarCraft II
Jealous
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1294 users

Problems with Protoss Physiology

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
November 04 2007 17:00 GMT
#1
In a recent SC2 Blizzard Q&A batch, there was an interesting point raised on the subject of how the Protoss obtain their nourishment.

Here's the direct quote:

5. What do the Protoss eat? (Where do they get energy and mass?) (starcraftcz.com)
Protoss gain nutrition from sunlight, or at a pinch, moonlight (which is just reflected sunlight anyway) by absorbing through their skins. They can go for extended periods without absorbing sunlight. What little moisture they need is also absorbed through their skin.


This interesting new fact raises several problems (however hypothetical) about Protoss physiology.

By having Protoss obtaining their energy from the sun, we can assume that they mean the Protoss absorb energy from photons on the molecular level, and convert that electromagnetic radiation energy into chemical energy stored in chemical bonds which they later break to release the stored energy. A key consequence of absorbing energy from light is that you change the wavelength of the reflected light, resulting in a change in the colour of the reflected light.

In photosynthetic organisms on Earth, the dominant pigment used to absorb energy from light is chlorophyll, which absorbs most wavelengths of visible light except green, resulting in a green colour.

However, it seems impossible for this mechanism to work since Protoss skin is pale-ish, meaning that they reflect nearly all wavelengths of light and do not absorb substantial amounts of energy from light.

Also, another incongruous issue raised by making Protoss photosynthetic is that it means that they are autotrophs; organisms that derive energy directly from the abiotic environment and not from other organisms.

Why is this a problem? Well, for one thing, autotrophs are subject to different evolutionary pressures than herotrophs (On Earth, heterotrophs are just about everything except for chemoautotrophic archaebacteria {or whatever their name is nowadays} and photosynthetic organisms).

Autotrophs tend to be non-motile because they do not need to move around to find sources of energy (it's always shining down upon them or streaming out of undersea vents), and they certainly don't have to hunt down their meal (except for certain insectivore plants, but I digress...). Plants on our world do not move around or think or whatever because natural selection does not favor autotrophs that do so.

So, evolutionarily speaking, it does not make sense to have an autotrophic Protoss. All the traits of the Protoss suggest a predatory ancestry, like their communal hierarchy, their manipulative hands, their bipedal stance, etc.

On the other hand, there are already photosynthetic organisms on Aiur. The jungles are full of green 'plants' that quite resemble our own lethargic and stationary plants on Earth. Those plants have no use for pale skin, hands, brains, psionic storms, and so on.

Even the lore of the Starcraft universe contradicts the idea that Protoss could be autotrophic.

Despairing at last, the Xel-Naga focused their frustrated efforts on the most promising of their engineered worlds. Aiur, a massive jungle-world on the galaxy’s fringe, had borne a race of highly advanced beings.

These beings were incredibly adaptable to harsh natural conditions and climates. Their strength and speed were unparalleled amongst the other races known to the Xel-Naga. The race had even developed a rudimentary tribal society based upon group-hunting and warrior rule. However, their most distinct aspect was that they communicated with each other through a very complex method of instinctive telepathy, allowing them to operate communally with striking efficiency. The Xel-Naga were pleased with the progress of their latest creation and conceded that the new race was the first of all their experiments to evolve beyond the feral constraints of baser life-forms. To signify their ascension in the galactic order, the Xel-Naga gave the new race the name of Protoss, or the First Born. The early Protoss lived in harmony and seclusion upon the world of Aiur for hundreds of generations, never knowing of the Xel-Naga who watched over them from afar.


There you have it, right from the original grail of SC's back-story itself. The Protoss were hunters, not some plant or whatever.

So, anyways, I hope that my long boring post will generate some discussion, and hopefully all the replies won't be "lol iz just a game blimey!1".

+ Show Spoiler +

Note: Yes, I'm probably reading too deep into this, but hey that's the kind of stuff I like: totally useless and tangential. :3
Plus, the idea of the Protoss being autotrophs bugs the hell out of me. C'mon, plants are lame.

Note#2: Damn TL.Net screws up my formatting.

Note#3: I don't pretend to know everything about biology or xenobiology (is that even a field?), but I'm just basing what I've written on what I've read in books and what not.
xmShake
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1100 Posts
November 04 2007 17:05 GMT
#2
If plantoss are autotrophs, my firebats should do more damage to them.
Asta
Profile Joined October 2002
Germany3491 Posts
November 04 2007 17:09 GMT
#3
Actually I wasn't gonna post anything because I thought to myself 'let him have his fun'.
But then you forced me to:

lol iz just a game blimey!1
thedeadhaji *
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
39391 Posts
November 04 2007 17:18 GMT
#4
I actually really enjoyed reading this and the points you raised. As you say, inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but at least to me, these things are fun to talk about. The part about skin color, absorption and reflection made me think "oh shit I think you're right hahaha".

Btw about the evolutionary pressures part, werent Protoos created by the Xel'Naga? (My SC knowledge on lore is patchy at best, so I could very well be wrong) If they had suddenly appeared out of thin air then they dont have to be in line with evolutionary processes.
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 17:26:20
November 04 2007 17:22 GMT
#5
I believe you're missing Blizzard's whole point. They may have been hunters, but as evolution absolved them of their mouths and vocal cords in favor telepathy generated by their highly potent psionic brains, it absolved them of the primitive means of nutrition for auto-sustainment (ie mammals way of feeding). Protoss need such an infinitesimal portion of mass/energy, that sunlight and moisture will be enough. The highly potent flow of psionic energy, generated from their Khaydarin Crystals, Pylons, Nexuses and whatnot is almost enough.

So I believe that the current Protoss specimen is actually more evolved than your initial plants. They have the "purity of form" (opposed to Zerg's "purity of essence"), thus they are almost un-contained by any physical boundaries.

The part about light wavelengths is a slap in Blizzard's face (the more veritable one, at least in my eyes)
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 17:29:38
November 04 2007 17:29 GMT
#6
BTW, this tread in the SC2 forum looks like sAviOr in the middle of a stereotypical group of fat 13 year-olds FaSSteST-map-playing nerds with glasses^^

I enjoyed the read
.dragoon
Profile Joined May 2007
United States749 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 17:34:55
November 04 2007 17:32 GMT
#7
Except they didn't suddenly appear out of thin air, they're engineered by the Xel'Naga, but their lives still have to run their course.

Way I see it the point is not whether "iz just a game" or "this doesn't match that" but there seems to be some kind of disconnect with the sc1 lore and this current lore (or crackpot idea made up on the fly, I don't know, certainly anyone coulda thought of photosynthesis). I've heard of the "how do protoss eat" being asked out of being nosy fans who want to rationalize everything about starcraft. Guess I just find this unassuring, just like the "3 templar make an archon" and the other thing (what was it again?).

Stick to your own history, jesus.

If you can, then do. If I can, I will.
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
November 04 2007 17:32 GMT
#8
On November 05 2007 02:22 minus_human wrote:
I believe you're missing Blizzard's whole point. They may have been hunters, but as evolution absolved them of their mouths and vocal cords in favor telepathy generated by their highly potent psionic brains, it absolved them of the primitive means of nutrition for auto-sustainment (ie mammals way of feeding). Protoss need such an infinitesimal portion of mass/energy, that sunlight and moisture will be enough. The highly potent flow of psionic energy, generated from their Khaydarin Crystals, Pylons, Nexuses and whatnot is almost enough.

The part about light wavelengths is a slap in Blizzard's face (the more veritable one, at least in my eyes)


That is a valid point, but the original SC lore suggests that the Xel-Naga found the Protoss as a still rather primitive hunter-gatherer society that already had developed psionic capabilities (ie; a communal mind linkage).

They don't really give a solid timescale that would indicate whether or not the Protoss had the time to evolve photosynthesis between the time that the Xel-Naga appear in the Koprulu sector and the time of Starcraft.

But in all likelihood, it might have been the Xel-Naga that modified the Protoss to become autotrophic. While the lore mentions that the Xel-Naga imparted advanced technology to the Protoss, it doesn't even hint at modifying the cellular(?) metabolism of the Protoss. The Xel-Naga might have done this covertly, though this suggests that a huge aspect of Protoss's origins have never been revealed!

We demand confirmation, Blizzard. :D
MindpLay-
Profile Joined August 2007
40 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 17:41:45
November 04 2007 17:38 GMT
#9
Wow, nice post! I agree with your point, but some (small) things are a bit off.

Like: "All the traits of the Protoss suggest a predatory ancestry, like their communal hierarchy, their manipulative hands, their bipedal stance, etc. "

1. predators don't always hunt in groups, and how does this lead into a communal hierachy?
2. they have manipulative hands and bipedal stance, which would evolutionary stand for intelligence and ingenuity. Due to weight of bigger brain and the ability to use your hands more effectively.

If they had claws for hands, the hunter aspect would be more in place.

These few point aren't really important, but I just wanted to add them to you beautifully composed post.

Cheers gj
Lifes a bitch.... and im her pimpdaddy
hku
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
167 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 17:50:42
November 04 2007 17:43 GMT
#10
As stated, the evolution argument doesn't apply due to the artificial nature, or "intelligent design" (lol at blizzard), nature of the Protoss race, and for the colour of their skin, they might absorb mostly light outside the visual spectrum, such as infrared and ultra-violet, especially if their near-by suns are burning at a significantly higher or lower temperature than the sun.
bine
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
United States2352 Posts
November 04 2007 17:56 GMT
#11
Awesome post.

The light problem is a big one. But for the evolution aspect, I would guess that they evolved from meat-eaters or whatever, that after a certain amount of time and technology, they either altered their own genes or bred themselves to be photosynthetic as a means of practicality.
T-P-S
Profile Joined June 2007
United States204 Posts
November 04 2007 18:06 GMT
#12
Why should they be limited to the absorption of sunlight from only the visible spectrum? It radiates many more wavelengths than actually reach us through our atmosphere. They could absorb x-rays or radio waves through a means we don't understand. Also, absorbing energy like this could be far more efficient than the photosynthesis we observe here... the Protoss were engineered, after all.

'Group hunting' could refer to more of a fighting action. Almost all large land herbivores, while not autotrophic, don't actually "hunt" their food down but still fight amongst themselves... and it's been established by things like the Aeon of Strife that Protoss readily fought each other.

As far as their development of working hands, powerful brains and psionic ability, I think it's possible from an evolutionary standpoint that their own fighting could have driven their mutation. This idea isn't applicable over a short period of time, because the race would have to be fighting for a great deal of time to actually influence their own evolution into breeding warriors.

Also, do you think that the Protoss could have actually modified parts of their own physiology as a species after they developed the technology as heterotrophs?

I really like your OP, though I find trivial things like this fun as well.
~a hunnerd. Cash, check, whatever. I'll Mothership it.
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 18:10:30
November 04 2007 18:09 GMT
#13
On November 05 2007 02:43 hku wrote:
they might absorb mostly light outside the visual spectrum, such as infrared and ultra-violet, especially if their near-by suns are burning at a significantly higher or lower temperature than the sun.


That still leaves some problems (thought more surmountable), since ultraviolet light is highly damaging to organic molecules and infrared is too low in energy to realistically fuel cellular processes. Also, the dominance of green plants on Aiur (Green jungle-planet) suggests that the planet orbits a star similar to our own Sun and at a similar distance.
Razamataz
Profile Joined October 2007
Canada135 Posts
November 04 2007 18:10 GMT
#14
Absolutely fantastic thread 5/5!
fanatacist
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
10318 Posts
November 04 2007 18:16 GMT
#15
The absorption could be dependent on the texture of their skin as well as color/pigmentation. Porousness helps.
Peace~
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 04 2007 18:16 GMT
#16
Heh, I really enjoyed reading this.

You should send this article to Blizzard and demand an answer. I'm sure amongst all the CS people down there, one has a biology minor.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 18:21:12
November 04 2007 18:18 GMT
#17
Yeah, personally I thought the idea that the Protoss absorbed light to eat was pretty ridiculous... the obvious question would be, where do they get their nutrients? They clearly aren't rooted in the soil, so unless they have no metals in them (and their bodies catalyze their reactions how?) it makes absolutely no sense. I guess they are at a state now where they could dope their water (if they even drink water?), but prior to that?

And as stated, ultraviolet light is energetic enough to dissociate bonds, so their skin color is pretty whack. It's entirely possible that their sun's wavelength of maximum emission would be different than the Earth's, but as also already stated, Aiur is green.

Edit: And no pores would not help, the molecules have to absorb light to do anything with it.
MindpLay-
Profile Joined August 2007
40 Posts
November 04 2007 18:19 GMT
#18
With the absorbtion of other wavelenghts emerges another problem: Do protoss obsorb the communicational wavelenghts of terrans?
Just imagine, a large protoss fleet is attacking a terran planet, and all the communications are down because the protoss absorb the wavelenghts of the radios etc.
Anyways, it could of course also be other wavelenghts, but this would be physiologically unreal.

Come to think of it, remember dragonball Z ?? With the GREEN people from namek , they were just like this protoss story, they only drink water (only difference) because they feed themselves from the energy of their surrounding sun(s). The thing is, they were green, and had the ability to grow their arms back etc.
Thought this was kinda funny, but lame in respect to the protoss, since SC should be on a whole different level than something like DBZ.
Lifes a bitch.... and im her pimpdaddy
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-11-04 18:27:54
November 04 2007 18:23 GMT
#19
Oh, one other thing, if the Protoss are photosynthetic, you would expect evolution to select for skin porosity (mentioned above) and also external structures that maximize their body's surface area for light absorption.
But then, a Protoss sprouting leaves would be quite weird. ;D

Edit:
And no pores would not help, the molecules have to absorb light to do anything with it.

I think he was referring to how pores aid in the gas exchange required for photosynthesis.
Sunyveil
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States3788 Posts
November 04 2007 18:27 GMT
#20
On November 05 2007 02:05 XMShake wrote:
If plantoss are autotrophs, my firebats should do more damage to them.


Q F T
Peaked at C- on ICCUP and proud of it! @Sunyveil
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Brain Bouts
17:00
Big Brain Bouts #16
Demi vs Ashbringer
Kelazhur vs TriGGeR
Clem vs HeRoMaRinE
RotterdaM1253
IndyStarCraft 223
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1253
IndyStarCraft 223
UpATreeSC 182
TKL 121
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4413
Shuttle 1793
Snow 252
Mini 205
ggaemo 164
Soma 147
firebathero 109
EffOrt 106
sas.Sziky 78
Hyun 42
[ Show more ]
sorry 37
Jumperer 19
Dota 2
Gorgc9315
qojqva4220
febbydoto56
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
fl0m2553
kennyS1607
Foxcn404
x6flipin388
Other Games
Stewie2K5116
singsing3564
hiko2708
Lowko498
ArmadaUGS420
Beastyqt410
sgares330
KnowMe235
Trikslyr142
boxi98108
rubinoeu16
HTOMario2
Organizations
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO B27047
ESL CS:GO23864
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Tertiary Stream8351
Other Games
B2W.Neo2197
StarCraft 2
Esl_sc2247
ESL.tv247
Other Games
BasetradeTV203
Dota 2
BeyondTheSummit140
StarCraft: Brood War
StarcraftVOD5
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• MindelVK 51
• CrowbarSC2 34
• Aristorii27
• HolyHit 7
• Freeedom7
• Migwel
• Laughngamez YouTube
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
• Alpha X_
• Poblha
• intothetv
• aXEnki
• Gussbus
StarCraft: Brood War
• G5 6
• Michael_bg 5
• sscaitournament1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
Upcoming Events
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
6h 6m
The PondCast
17h 6m
OSC
18h 6m
Showmatch
21h 6m
BSL: ProLeague
23h 6m
CSO Cup
23h 6m
ESL Pro Tour
1d 9h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 23h
DaveTesta Events
2 days
ESL Pro Tour
2 days
[ Show More ]
ESL Pro Tour
3 days
IEM
4 days
IEM
5 days
IEM
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KOR-CHN Invitational League 2: Saber vs Mihu
OSC Championship Season 10
NGS Storm Division S6 Qual. 5
BLAST Premier Spring Groups

Ongoing

BSL Season 16
KCM Race Survival 2023 Season 1
KCM Ladies Race Survival 2023 Season 1
Individual Golden League
Strength Challenge 30K
Tournament of Honor
Y.H Spring cup
FS Mania
RISS Season 1
Spring Cup Season 4: Korea
Spring Cup 4: Chinese Qualifier
Spring Cup 4: Chinese Qualifier 1
WTL 2022 Winter
NGS Storm Division S6
ESL Challenger League S44 NA
ESL Challenger League S44 EU
ESL Challenger League S44 AP
IEM Katowice 2023

Upcoming

Hongtu Solo League S5: KOR
ASL Season 15
Spring Cup Season 4
Spring Cup Season 4: China
Spring Cup 4: Chinese Qualifier 2
CHN vs KOR Week31
#PassionCraft Knockout
IEM Katowice 2023
BLAST.tv Paris Major 2023
ESL Challenger Melbourne 2023
BLAST.tv Paris 2023: EU RMR B
BLAST.tv Paris 2023: EU RMR A
BLAST.tv Paris 2023: AME RMR
BLAST.tv Paris 2023: APAC RMR
BLAST Premier Spring AME Showdown
BLAST Premier Spring EU Showdown
ESL Pro League Season 17
CCT Central EU Malta Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2023 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.