EPTProblems with Protoss Physiology - Page 2
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:23 Jyvblamo wrote: Oh, one other thing, if the Protoss are photosynthetic, you would expect evolution to select for skin porosity (mentioned above) and also external structures that maximize their body's surface area for light absorption. But then, a Protoss sprouting leaves would be quite weird. ;D hahah true tosses are walking killer plants ! | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Fun stuff  | ||
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
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hku
169 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:09 Jyvblamo wrote: That still leaves some problems (thought more surmountable), since ultraviolet light is highly damaging to organic molecules and infrared is too low in energy to realistically fuel cellular processes. Also, the dominance of green plants on Aiur (Green jungle-planet) suggests that the planet orbits a star similar to our own Sun and at a similar distance. I believe i was completely pwned. Protoss should be green or eat food. I'm just a physicist, not a biologist. >< | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
2. Its true that of evolutionarily reasons autotrophs are atleast on earth all stationary. However that is irrelevant since the Xel Naga made the Protoss race. Its not the product of evolution. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
It's quite a breath of fresh air. :D On November 05 2007 03:38 DrainX wrote: 1. We only know that their skin reflects the light that the human eye can see. They might absorb lots both above and below our spectrum. 2. Its true that of evolutionarily reasons autotrophs are atleast on earth all stationary. However that is irrelevant since the Xel Naga made the Protoss race. Its not the product of evolution. 1. Ah, but keep in mind, as already mentioned before, only light in the visible spectrum is suitable for absorption by biological materials. Why doesn't the human eye (and indeed the eyes of most other animals) see ultraviolet? Because UV radiation is far too damaging to organic molecules. 2. According to all existing SC canon, the Xel-Naga did not create the Protoss race. They maybe have seeded life on Aiur (Though the back-story is ambiguous on this), but they did not directly manipulate the evolution of the Protoss race until after the Protoss had developed into... "beings [that] were incredibly adaptable to harsh natural conditions and climates. Their strength and speed were unparalleled amongst the other races known to the Xel-Naga. The race had even developed a rudimentary tribal society based upon group-hunting and warrior rule. However, their most distinct aspect was that they communicated with each other through a very complex method of instinctive telepathy, allowing them to operate communally with striking efficiency." Edit: On November 05 2007 03:39 gg_hertzz wrote: There are plants that aren't green. Flowers for example. Flowering plants do not derive their energy from their flowers, they have green leaves that photosynthesize for them. The different pigments in the flowers are for attracting pollinating animals. Even so, that is beside the point since all photosynthesizing organisms on Earth (correct me if I'm wrong) use light from the visible spectrum to power the light-dependent reactions in photosynthesis. | ||
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:38 DrainX wrote: 1. We only know that their skin reflects the light that the human eye can see. They might absorb lots both above and below our spectrum. 2. Its true that of evolutionarily reasons autotrophs are atleast on earth all stationary. However that is irrelevant since the Xel Naga made the Protoss race. Its not the product of evolution. Protoss were not made by Xel'Naga -.-..They were altered >< | ||
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TheosEx
United States894 Posts
Forgive them for being a little muddy... | ||
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Kimera757
Canada129 Posts
On November 05 2007 02:00 Jyvblamo wrote: In a recent SC2 Blizzard Q&A batch, there was an interesting point raised on the subject of how the Protoss obtain their nourishment. In photosynthetic organisms on Earth, the dominant pigment used to absorb energy from light is chlorophyll, which absorbs most wavelengths of visible light except green, resulting in a green colour. However, it seems impossible for this mechanism to work since Protoss skin is pale-ish, meaning that they reflect nearly all wavelengths of light and do not absorb substantial amounts of energy from light. Some Protoss have pale skin (which doesn't make sense) but many have blue, grey or purplish skin. You're right that pale skin (eg Artanis' skin) makes no sense. Also, Dark Templar lived on the until-recently lightless world of Shakuras. I'm thinking their "diet" consisted of sunlamps. Alternatively, genetic engineering. During their long exile, the Dark Templars have faced many challenges. Struggling and adapting their arsenal of skills and converting their biology to suit their harsh environment has ultimately resulted in the Dark Archon. Reference: http://battle.net/scc/protoss/units/darkarchon.shtml The hunting issue was solved in the Firstborn novel. Protoss don't hunt for food, they hunt for skins, decorations and the like. This means lots of "wasted" carcasses lying around. Autotrophs tend to be non-motile because they do not need to move around to find sources of energy (it's always shining down upon them or streaming out of undersea vents), and they certainly don't have to hunt down their meal (except for certain insectivore plants, but I digress...). Plants on our world do not move around or think or whatever because natural selection does not favor autotrophs that do so. So, evolutionarily speaking, it does not make sense to have an autotrophic Protoss. All the traits of the Protoss suggest a predatory ancestry, like their communal hierarchy, their manipulative hands, their bipedal stance, etc. True. However, I don't think Blizzard cares I think the ancestors of the Protoss may have had some reason to be mobile; for instance, some kind of powerful herbivore. Perhaps Aiur had an ice age and/or got really cloudy; long-lived plants that reproduced really slowly would have to move. Of course, the slow reproduction would really slow down the rate of evolution.Perhaps a better idea is the example of coral. The coral is a heterotroph, but it lives in a mutalistic relationship with certain algae. Something similar could have happened to the Protoss, except they were mobile at first. Eventually they lost some features they "didn't need" but didn't lose them all. That's not realistic either, but then again neither is psionics [quote=GG_Hertz]There are plants that aren't green[/quote] When leaves fall in the autumn, they are rarely green. This is because flowering plants have additional phototrophic chemicals that absorb light; however, chlorophyll is much more abundant, so the leaves appear green. Chlorophyll breaks down before the leaves fall, revealing the other colors. (IIRC these other chemicals "hand off" the energy to chlorophyll somehow.) Many algae use other phototrophic chemicals predominantly, especially those that grow in relatively deep seawater. (Red algae grow in deep water; they absorb the mainly higher-energy blue light that can penetrate that deeply.) However, virtually all plants are colored. Ones that aren't (like mistletoes) are parasitic. As stated before, flowers do not contribute to photosynthesis; those are non-metabolic dyes whose sole purpose is decorative. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:44 Jyvblamo wrote: I'm really enjoying all the intelligent discussion this thread is generating. It's quite a breath of fresh air. :D 1. Ah, but keep in mind, as already mentioned before, only light in the visible spectrum is suitable for absorption by biological materials. Why doesn't the human eye (and indeed the eyes of most other animals) see ultraviolet? Because UV radiation is far too damaging to organic molecules. 2. According to all existing SC canon, the Xel-Naga did not create the Protoss race. They maybe have seeded life on Aiur (Though the back-story is ambiguous on this), but they did not directly manipulate the evolution of the Protoss race until after the Protoss had developed into... Edit: Flowering plants do not derive their energy from their flowers, they have green leaves that photosynthesize for them. The different pigments in the flowers are for attracting pollinating animals. Even so, that is beside the point since all photosynthesizing organisms on Earth (correct me if I'm wrong) use light from the visible spectrum to power the light-dependent reactions in photosynthesis. 1. I dont think we know enough about what the protoss body and skin is made of to say that vissible light might be damaging to it. It doesnt even have to resemble organic materials on earth. 2. My bad. I guess either the Xel Naga helped the protoss to gain that ability after they found them then. Maybe those crystals changed something in their DNA or whatever the protoss use instead of DNA :p But already using telepathy when the Xel Naga found them I think hints to them not having mouths back then either. If they already had telepathy and maybe no mouths then maybe they already survived by absorbing light through their skins when the Xel Naga found them. I dont think that is verry likely though. If a being suddenly gets an ability like absorbing sunlight that completly changes the evolutionary pressure on it. I cant see the protoss looking like they do and working they way they do if they wernt either engineered, improved themselves geneticly once they got that power or in some way took control of their own evolution and guided it themselves :S Anyway the Xel Naga might just have reengineered the protoss keeping what traits they wanted and adding whatever they liked once they found them which I think is the most likely answer to photosynthesis and other "evolutionary problems" with the protoss race. I think its stranger how humans have been able to get psionic abilitys :S btw has anyone else read The dark templar saga: Firstborn? It deals a lot with how the protoss finaly ended the aeon of strife and learned how to use the crystals left by the Xel Naga. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:56 Kimera757 wrote: Some Protoss have pale skin (which doesn't make sense) but many have blue, grey or purplish skin. You're right that pale skin (eg Artanis' skin) makes no sense. Also, Dark Templar lived on the until-recently lightless world of Shakuras. I'm thinking their "diet" consisted of sunlamps. Alternatively, genetic engineering. Reference: http://battle.net/scc/protoss/units/darkarchon.shtml The hunting issue was solved in the Firstborn novel. Protoss don't hunt for food, they hunt for skins, decorations and the like. This means lots of "wasted" carcasses lying around. Really good points, on all accounts! I never read many of the SC novels, but the fact that the Protoss did not hunt for sustenance makes things a bit clearer. I think the most likely explanation for the Photosynthetic Protoss is that the Protoss began as heterotrophic organisms that very recently became symbiotic with microorganisms that somehow developed the ability to absorb some wavelength of light and convert that into chemical energy. Sort of like a super-chloroplast. I say recently because this would explain away the fact that they don't seem to have very many adaptations that make them autotrophic, and they still retained behavior patterns of predators (hunting for fur, etc). The ancestors of modern Protoss would have had an advantage over their cousins that did not have the endosymbiotic UV-synthesizers, and thus became the dominant form on Aiur when the Xel-Naga arrived. I dunno, just a theory. :D | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On November 05 2007 04:10 Jyvblamo wrote: I say recently because this would explain away the fact that they don't seem to have very many adaptations that make them autotrophic and still retain behavior patterns of predators (hunting for fur, etc). Would have to be very recently counting in evolutionary time. A big change like that changing the pressure of evolution always results in fast changes in the phenotype. Like how the hippos evolved to whales in a verry short time once they left the land for good. Fun fact: Whales are the closest living relatives of hippos; they evolved from a common ancestor at around 54 million years ago (very short). They are closer relatives to whales then they are to other even-toed ungulates like camels, cows and pigs. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:44 Jyvblamo wrote: 1. Ah, but keep in mind, as already mentioned before, only light in the visible spectrum is suitable for absorption by biological materials. Why doesn't the human eye (and indeed the eyes of most other animals) see ultraviolet? Because UV radiation is far too damaging to organic molecules. Who says that the toss uses the same cell structure as we have on earth? Plants can go all day out in the sun and their cells dont take damage, UV rays are only dangerous to those that dont got the right protection so they can very well take UV rays as food, all they need is different molecules than our photosynthesis uses. ______ Edit: Also it would be very logical if they used UV, since then the wastes would be the paleish light we see when we look at them. ------ Also even if they took the light spectrum as food, it isnt that strange that theyre pale anyway. You know why? Lack of survival of the fittest, just like humans, the race start to degenerate after a while spawning strange pale tosses eventhough the good original ones were dark purple. Same as how many humans grow pale and fat eventhough were made to not have enough to eat and were made to add a lot of protective brown pigment against the UV rays. But now with us being in houses all day we dont get enough UV protection so its dangerous, same as how many are physical abominations. | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On November 05 2007 04:26 Klockan3 wrote: Who says that the toss uses the same cell structure as we have on earth? Plants can go all day out in the sun and their cells dont take damage, UV rays are only dangerous to those that dont got the right protection so they can very well take UV rays as food, all they need is different molecules than our photosynthesis uses. ______ Edit: Also it would be very logical if they used UV, since then the wastes would be the paleish light we see when we look at them. ------ Also even if they took the light spectrum as food, it isnt that strange that theyre pale anyway. You know why? Lack of survival of the fittest, just like humans, the race start to degenerate after a while spawning strange pale tosses eventhough the good original ones were dark purple. Same as how many humans grow pale and fat eventhough were made to not have enough to eat and were made to add a lot of protective brown pigment against the UV rays. But now with us being in houses all day we dont get enough UV protection so its dangerous, same as how many are physical abominations. Uh sorry, there is an upper limit to bond strength and regardless of what they were made up out of, it would have to be reasonably complex. It would still likely dissociate. Plants are better at repairing damage than humans, so conceivably the Protoss could sit in UV all day if they could repair the damage faster than they took it. But that doesn't mean they would be absorbing it. UV and vacuum UV absorption involve sigma to sigma star and n to sigma star transitions respectively... and they are weak, and thus probably not sufficient enough to provide energy for a plant (let alone one that can move). Furthermore, if there are green plants that presumably doing photosynthesis on Aiur, they are presumably producing oxygen, which would also mean Aiur has an ozone. Ozone blocks vacuum UV and a lot of UV... they'd starve if it were even possible to begin with (and it isn't really). | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On November 05 2007 03:32 gakkgakk wrote: You are missing the bigger issue with protoss being plant: how do they reproduce? I only know one thing my friend. + Show Spoiler + All female protoss have tits! | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On November 05 2007 05:01 freelander wrote: I only know one thing my friend. + Show Spoiler + All female protoss have tits! Rofl, that one is 100% wrong by Blizzard considering this answer! Or do their tits shoot photons at the babies? | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On November 05 2007 05:06 Klockan3 wrote: Rofl, that one is 100% wrong by Blizzard considering this answer! Or do their tits shoot photons at the babies? Oh my God. Tit-lasers, PEW PEW PEW. + Show Spoiler + Never thought that I would be the first to make a 'lazers-pew-pew' joke in my own thread... :[ | ||
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