Now, hear me out. We all know warpgate has a lot of drawbacks (and a lot of cool, useful things). It helps Protoss defend expansion better, but also let’s Protoss attacks be very strong, as you’re able to create units near your opponents bases, removing the travel distance. Furthermore it creates the unit first and the cooldown comes later, so you’re getting the unit much faster than you would get it otherwise.
For years, Protoss gateway unit weaknesses have been attributed to this…but what if we were wrong? Warpgate design can be problematic, but is it really above being balanced?
Since the game's release, Warpgate has been nerfed, a lot. Research time is much slower, pylon radius has been nerfed and they now give a very slow warp in time. You need either a proxy gateway, nexus or warp prism to get fast warp ins. This increases the cost and time it takes to warp units and delays pushes significantly, as well as sometimes forcing you to either take more risk with a proxy, or having to go robo tech. It also makes Protoss push entirely reliant in keeping their warp prism/pylons alive. Because of this, I believe the blame has been missplaced, and that you can have strong gateway units, even with warpgate existing.
In fact, warp gate has been nerfed so much, Blizzard buffed the stalker.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase. But I thought gateways units couldn’t be buffed? Turns out, there have been many changes to the stalkers through the years, at some point the stalker used to hit even harder, and attack once per second at the end of HotS
In fact, Stalkers used to be even stronger early in Legacy of the void. Its attack was changed to attack faster again and increase it’s damage to 15+6 vs armored. (currently 13+5) It also used to gain +2 base attack with every upgrade, instead of 1, making them scale better, but that was nerfed in January 2018 to it’s current state:
Damage reduced from 15 (21 vs. armored) to 13 (18 vs. armored) and period reduced from 1.54 to 1.34.
Protoss Ground Weapons upgrade will provide it +1 base damage and +1 armored instead of +2 base damage.
So, if the stalker was buffed with the warpgate nerfs, proving that you CAN make Protoss units stronger even with warpgate, why was it nerfed?
Because of Blink.
Blink is one of the most fun, and cool looking abilities in the game. It’s also incredibly problematic. It enables you to make your units much more efficient, and being able to maintain the damage of stalker compositions for longer as it increases their survivability. If the stalker is buffed to deal more damage, or scale better, that change becomes exponential the better you are at blink micro.
Blink is also super versatile. You can escape, ignore terrain, and go up and down cliffs. You can’t buff stalkers because with blink you could have 20 super stalkers going in and out your main base destroying everything and not dying. We’ve seen how strong blink allins have been historically, and how strong they are vs terran still, imagine if the stalkers were even better.
Blink has proven so problematic before that its research time has been nerfed from 110 seconds to 170. That, alongside LotV reduced early and mid game stages, severely impacted Blink stalker use for years.
Blink does have drawbacks. There comes a point where you cannot blink effectively enough, and due to stalkers relatively low health and hard counters (tanks deal double dmaage now than in HotS and lurkers exist now) there comes a point in the game where it’s better to use your apm in something else. HerO was able to extend the usefulness of blink stalker in PvZ by mixing them with oracles and pushing a lot, forcing the enemy to make more units instead of teching, effectively extending the midgame, where blink stalkers excel.
But, what if we removed blink? I’m not saying we should, or that it would actually happen. This is just a thought experiment.
I believe if we removed blink, we would be able to buff stalkers a lot even though warp gates exist, and maybe even zealots. Stalkers would be more boring, but they would be stronger and scale better into the late game.
There would still be the issue of warping close to the enemy base, but I don’t think that’s as much of a big issue as people believe. Stalker damage would be buffed, but its survivability and versatility heavily nerfed. Strong units like Tanks and Lurkers would counter stalkers better as you wouldn’t be able to blink. But they would hold their ground better vs other core units, like Roach hydra and marine marauder.
Some might say, “what about drops and warp ins in the main?” That wouldn’t be a big issue either. Marauders are stronger and sturdier than stalkers already, and we see drops all the time that are strong, yet not game breaking. And sure, you can warp 8 stalkers in the enemy base if you want, but they have the same issue that dropping MM and then losing/taking your medivacs away would have, which is leaving them there to die eventually, as without blink you wouldn’t have an easy way to escape nor to maneuver around the base. Also, again, without blink stalkers wouldn’t be able to focus enemy units so easily, like well positioned tanks in the main or defensive bunkers. Further changes like reducing prism speed could also help balance it.
There are obviously a lot of pros and cons of doing this, and like I said, it isn't even realistic for it to happen. My point here is: Saying Protoss units cannot be buffed due to Warp gate is a fallacy. They can be buffed and they have been. It’s other parts of the race that stop this from happening. Protoss design is a bunch of cool ideas that in combination make the race very rigid and restrictive.
Another example of this is the adept. It sucks after a very small time window, but shade has a very similar problem as blink, except it’s more binary. If you buff adepts, you will only make all ins better.
The zealot is already a strong unit. Great runbys, great for drops, great for tanking. Maybe they could use a tier 3 upgrade, but you cannot say they’re bad.
In short. Warp gate isn’t the root of all evil. It does have some design issues, but they are fixed with balance, hell, they may already be fixed. It’s other parts of Protoss core unit design that stops them from being buffed.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
You're basically turning the stalker into a dragoon if you remove blink and buff it, and the dragoon is a reasonably balanced unit. It's not the most interesting unit to be honest, but balance-wise I think it's reasonable. Protoss loses their biggest piece of catch / pursuit potential, but if dragoons have enough range it might be able to compensate. Alternatively, you can dramatically increase the cooldown on blink so that it's more of a positional than a micro tool (you can get your army into and out of positions, but you can't blink mid-fight to save units). I'm not sure whether that's an interesting middle ground to explore.
But it's worth noting that this doesn't let you buff "gateway units" as you suggest, but only the stalker. For instance, the zealot would remain a pretty tragic unit that is basically just a dps tank for most of the game, and changing blink doesn't really change the dynamics on the balance of the chargelot. For what it's worth, I think dragoon speedlot is a little easier to balance than blink stalker chargelot, but that would involve changing two of the core protoss gateway unit mechanics of SC2, which is probably a pretty hard sell
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
No. They increased the attack cooldown in that same patch:
Stalker
Particle Disruptors weapon damage changed from 10 (+4 Armored) to 15 (+6 Armored). Weapon speed changed from 1 to 1.54. Receives +2 base damage per level of Protoss Ground Weapon upgrades.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
Particle Disruptors weapon damage changed from 10 (+4 Armored) to 15 (+6 Armored). Weapon speed changed from 1 to 1.54. Receives +2 base damage per level of Protoss Ground Weapon upgrades.
....Yes, they changed the attack cooldown from 1 to 1.54, but they changed it again to it's current state of 1.34 source: Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
They have changed the atack cooldown like 3 times for the stalker, in WoL it was 1.44. That doesn't mean it was to mantain the DPS, nor does it mean it was to match the atack to the clock in legacy of the voi. Again maybe 1 time it was, but not the latest 2 changes I put there, which like I said came out 2 years after LotV was changed. You do the math.
It was only nerfed cause the stalker ended up being too strong (yeah..)This just further proves my point that people think gateway units not being able to be buffed because of warp gate is an illusion. They have been buffed before.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
No. They increased the attack cooldown in that same patch:
Stalker
Particle Disruptors weapon damage changed from 10 (+4 Armored) to 15 (+6 Armored). Weapon speed changed from 1 to 1.54. Receives +2 base damage per level of Protoss Ground Weapon upgrades.
....Yes, they changed the attack cooldown from 1 to 1.54, but guess what? they changed it again to it's current state of 1.34 source: Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
They have changed the atack cooldown like 3 times for the stalker. That doesn't mean it was to mantain the DPS, nor does it mean it was to match the atack to the clock in legacy of the voi. Again maybe 1 time it was, but not the latest 2 changes I put there, which like I said came out 2 years after LotV was changed. You do the math.
It was only nerfed cause the stalker ended up being too strong (yeah..)This just further proves my point that people think gateway units not being able to be buffed because of warp gate is an illusion. They have been buffed before.
I'm not sure what this word salad has to do anything. You said Stalkers got a DPS increase, they didn't. All three variants of Stalkers had virtually identical base DPS. The only slight buff the Stalker got in that regard was with better upgrade scaling.
The damage change is literally a % increase in damage and attack cooldown. The only difference is that now it gets more damage pr. upg vs armoured, making it a better anti-armour unit. Before Stalkers weren't that great vs Roaches, but now the Zerg need something more with the army, though they can easily just turn those Roaches into Ravagers They also overkill more, but at the same time kiting is way stronger. I think it was overall a pretty huge buff to Protoss this change. Especially at killing Medivacs, Voids and Ultras.
The stalker does have 20 less hp than the sc1 dragoon. But I don't think there is one culprit, they decided early on that this Stalker was going to have Blink and that Protoss was going to have the Warp Gate mechanic, so I think they did a concious effort when they put so much Protoss power into the Robotics units. If you wait for the last Colossus to make it across the map then there is some defenders advantage. But maybe they just lucked out on this aspect.
Look at 4gate Blink vs Terran, it utilizes the WG mechanic, the Blink mechanic and even the Warp Prism Blink mechanic to eek out everything from the Stalker. This build is the definition of abusive, not that it's not a cool build. But in most other cases you're not lumping more of these things together and so it's actually good design that the Stalker has Blink, is on Warp Gate and gains Strength from energy units + Robo units that are slower at getting out on the map. And that Protoss also benefits from a defensive mechanic (Battery Overcharge).
Lets say the Stalker was just stronger, but you removed Blink, then Warp Gate would still make it too powerful on timing attacks, Prism blink would be stronger and they would also be too strong on the defensive with Battery Overcharge. So what I'm saying is that the Stalker is in a good spot and all these things that buff the Stalker ,do their best to keep the race relevant without making 1 build broken.
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
No. They increased the attack cooldown in that same patch:
Stalker
Particle Disruptors weapon damage changed from 10 (+4 Armored) to 15 (+6 Armored). Weapon speed changed from 1 to 1.54. Receives +2 base damage per level of Protoss Ground Weapon upgrades.
....Yes, they changed the attack cooldown from 1 to 1.54, but guess what? they changed it again to it's current state of 1.34 source: Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
They have changed the atack cooldown like 3 times for the stalker. That doesn't mean it was to mantain the DPS, nor does it mean it was to match the atack to the clock in legacy of the voi. Again maybe 1 time it was, but not the latest 2 changes I put there, which like I said came out 2 years after LotV was changed. You do the math.
It was only nerfed cause the stalker ended up being too strong (yeah..)This just further proves my point that people think gateway units not being able to be buffed because of warp gate is an illusion. They have been buffed before.
I'm not sure what this word salad has to do anything. You said Stalkers got a DPS increase, they didn't. All three variants of Stalkers had virtually identical base DPS. The only slight buff the Stalker got in that regard was with better upgrade scaling.
The Stalker DPS did change over the years... If you don't believe be maybe you'll believe liquipedia .You can just compare the Hots page with the lotv one
(Wiki)Stalker (Heart of the Swarm) (Wiki)Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
And that's not because of the change in the ingame clock, as the starting DPS of the stalker in LotV was 10
I even showed proof in balance threads of the time talking about the buffed stalker, but whatver.
That's not even the point of the post. The point of the post is to talk about if warp gate is really the core issue of the Protoss, or if even with warp gate you could buff gateway units if you just changed their design.
I think stalkers could have a better weapon against air units. It will help to balance the golden armada which isn t fun because air units must be used to disturb, harass or cast spells AND not for win the game unless your opponent fucked up.
A SC3 rework were game is slowed and fight are longer (and with more light units to balance the ratio between armored and light units)
Increase the damage of air weapon for stalker Tempest range or damage re-worked Carrier couldn t build interceptors when they are moving / + interceptor rework (design against armored or light) Void ray removed
Adepts function overlap stalkers, and with Dark templars blink, you get three units with a teleport ability. I think it s a problem. So Adepts have to be tweaked or replaced
I've been ranting against Warp Gate for more than 10 years now. It's always going to be the biggest problem with Protoss design in Starcraft 2.
Stalkers vs Dragoons is another topic, but it's a symptom, not a cause of Protoss woes. Even if Stalkers were buffed up to be closer to Dragoon stats, that doesn't change the fact that Zealots are nowhere near as effective of units as they were in SC1 either. The problem with Warp Gate keeping all Protoss Gateway units balanced around it is that it affects ALL Protoss Gateway units, not just Stalkers.
Both Warpgate and Blink are so integrated into SC2 now, I think it would not be SC2 if they were removed. There were a few mods made without them (Starbow etc), but I don't think they made it that far.
The dragoon is a pretty boring unit, and with the Marauder in the game, the Stalker just fits better. Protoss is also all about space and time manipulation, and both mechanics fit great there!
For blance, both mechanics are a nightmare, of course. The power of Gateway units are on a razor edge, and Z/T needed very strong mechanics of their own, like stim+speedvacs, mines, injects, queens and banelings. I have a hard time seeing what else Protoss could have gotten to make the race interesting to play and play against. Stronger adepts, maybe?
I feel Protoss is the ninja/trickery race, which has to lack some straight-up punching power to compensate. Some love it!
In HotS the stalker had an attack of 10+ 4 vs armored. With a DPS of 6.9 (+2.8 vs armored). Currently it's damage was increased to 13 +5 vs armored with a DPS of 9.7+ 3.7 vs armored. That is a big increase.
Stalkers have never got true DPS increase. The damage change was accompanied with the same attack cooldown increase. As for DPS values you listed, this is the result of Blizzard changing in game clock to match real time in the LoTV beta.
Thanks for your comment, but they did in fact get a DPS increase. It can be confusing with so many changes.
The change you're referring to is when they changed them to have a stronger attack, but atack once per second, that was indeed suppoused to mantain their DPS, but make them "easier to hit and run" supousedly anyway.
However, they did increase the stalker attack to 15+6, this was on Novemeber 2017, 2 years after legacy of the void came out, and when the game became free to play.
No. They increased the attack cooldown in that same patch:
Stalker
Particle Disruptors weapon damage changed from 10 (+4 Armored) to 15 (+6 Armored). Weapon speed changed from 1 to 1.54. Receives +2 base damage per level of Protoss Ground Weapon upgrades.
....Yes, they changed the attack cooldown from 1 to 1.54, but guess what? they changed it again to it's current state of 1.34 source: Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
They have changed the atack cooldown like 3 times for the stalker. That doesn't mean it was to mantain the DPS, nor does it mean it was to match the atack to the clock in legacy of the voi. Again maybe 1 time it was, but not the latest 2 changes I put there, which like I said came out 2 years after LotV was changed. You do the math.
It was only nerfed cause the stalker ended up being too strong (yeah..)This just further proves my point that people think gateway units not being able to be buffed because of warp gate is an illusion. They have been buffed before.
I'm not sure what this word salad has to do anything. You said Stalkers got a DPS increase, they didn't. All three variants of Stalkers had virtually identical base DPS. The only slight buff the Stalker got in that regard was with better upgrade scaling.
The Stalker DPS did change over the years... If you don't believe be maybe you'll believe liquipedia .You can just compare the Hots page with the lotv one
(Wiki)Stalker (Heart of the Swarm) (Wiki)Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
And that's not because of the change in the ingame clock, as the starting DPS of the stalker in LotV was 10
I even showed proof in balance threads of the time talking about the buffed stalker, but whatver.
That's not even the point of the post. The point of the post is to talk about if warp gate is really the core issue of the Protoss, or if even with warp gate you could buff gateway units if you just changed their design.
The starting DPS of the stalker is 9.7 now from 10 at the start of LoTV. Exactly what is this supposed to prove? And the Heart of the Swarm numbers all go by game time, not real time, as has been pointed out numerous times.
I don't know why you're so adamant about dying on this hill.
anyway stalker damage/cd change was partially reverted because 15 base damage made it 3 shot scvs and marines early game which was considered too strong at the time
blizzard has a hard rule with damage upgrade scaling as well which reduced its scaling vs non armored as a result (+10% per upgrade rounded, min 1 max 5)
I played the starbow mod for fun recently. I never used warpgate even though the mod is it, and loved the gameplay so much. MBS takes the pain of BW Protoss macro away and is super efficient. I’m fine if we can only warp through warp prisms as a future change.
The starcraft fandom wiki lists that the dragoon was part of the original development and then Kim scrapped it because it felt like it was too reliable of a backbone unit for Protoss.
I always assumed that gateway units suck because warpgate all-ins shouldn't be too powerful, but if that really was the case then they could have just nerfed warpgate more. The reality is that Protoss was supposed to be a gimmicky race that revolves around all-ins and high tier units by design.
On a side note I'd argue that having stronger but slower shots is a buff on a fairly mobile unit.
Absolutely warp gate is the root of the issue, Blink is awesome to watch and is a skill cap intensive ability that contributes to the quality of the game. Turning Stalkers into Dragoons just seems bleh.
That being said, there are probably 20 more realistic and easier ways to give Protoss a tiny bit of extra strength in the early game, and WG changes are probably 100% off of the list. I still think the Sentry should be further buffed to be a better overall combat unit in the early game, it really seems like as long as Protoss can put the pressure on Zerg the MU is well balanced, but who knows how that will affect TvP where Terran early game already looks fragile against the multiple openings that Protoss can bring against them.
Simple reality is that just like in BW, Protoss just doesn't perform well in most tournament settings. I don't think anyone is happy about it, but there always has to be someone in last place unfortunately.
I actually agree with the general point that blink is awful. Especially on a core unit such as the Stalker. I think on DTs it's kiiinda cool, but even then it has proven quite problematic.
I just never felt that blink on such a core unit felt right in the game. Throw in the fact that it bypasses terrain so swiftly and you indeed have yourself a bit of a problemo.
On February 19 2023 08:17 Scarlett` wrote: yes, it is
anyway stalker damage/cd change was partially reverted because 15 base damage made it 3 shot scvs and marines early game which was considered too strong at the time
blizzard has a hard rule with damage upgrade scaling as well which reduced its scaling vs non armored as a result (+10% per upgrade rounded, min 1 max 5)
A rule is made to be broken. Stalkers are symptomatic about SC2, two armies back and forth denying the whole part of the map outside their direct/main path (in straight line). It s symptomatic about the teleport ability and the warping ability which doesn t bother of walk and reach a place to control (or in the case of blink, abuse from cliffs jump which could be cool in a funny and slower game)
On February 19 2023 08:19 TossHeroes wrote: It was only somewhat decent when stalker could 3 shot a marine and when zealot charge was awesome
Somewhat decent? I still remember that game of Inno vs some protoss, when - Inno had multiple tanks sieged, a few bunkers and a wall of engi-bays and depots - and protoss had just zealot-archon, roughly same supply
...and Inno just died to the attack. Commentator was silent for 5-7 seconds after that because it was so absurd. Deeply entrenched terran with siege tanks, bunkers and a wall in front of them just died to the same limit of melee units.
Zealots were broken with that 8 damage on charge, it was obvious. At least TvP was in a terrible state back then.
On February 19 2023 22:29 RogerChillingworth wrote: I actually agree with the general point that blink is awful. Especially on a core unit such as the Stalker. I think on DTs it's kiiinda cool, but even then it has proven quite problematic.
I just never felt that blink on such a core unit felt right in the game. Throw in the fact that it bypasses terrain so swiftly and you indeed have yourself a bit of a problemo.
You could say the same about a core unit damaging itself (stim), so it heavily implies you should go Medivac. Even Mech is politely asked to have Medivacs for the Hellbats.
Zerg is full of core units that can evolve. They can almost instantly get stronger (bypasses larvae mechanic) & (bypasses defenders advantage). Baneling/Ravager/Hellion/Hellbat that are "core units" have AoE. Zerg core units benefit from Creep (weaker without Creep). Etc. etc.
On February 19 2023 15:40 Nebuchad wrote: Said it before, will say it again, fairly certain the marine is the root of all evil.
Nope! The extreme clumping is the root of all evil. Marines just profit the most from that.
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄
Wouldn't removing blink and making the stalker into a dragoon just encourage deathballing even more? In Brood War the hotkeys don't allow for it but as a viewer I already hate it in SC2 when I see an F2'd army of like 20+ stalkers going around in the map. I get the OP is maybe addressing this from a historical balance perspective, but it would just make things so boring to watch.
I would agree that blink is fun to watch, when they blink back one by one. But the whole blink into your base or blink on top of your tanks and one shot them never feels good to even watch. And to play I can imagine it's way worse.
Thing is you can't change 1 thing about SC2 and call it a day. It's a ripple effect. Just removing blink and changing nothing else would obviously not be the right call. You could look to do things to the adept that make it take on more of a stalker role, or vice versa. Adapting blink to be more like a short shade or something.
In the end, we like blink because of the micro and skill that someone like hero or parting shows with it. But you could have a lot more micro in the game if the lethality were toned down. But now we're talking about a different game :x.
The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle
Protoss was designed as a more pick-and-prod race. Micro in and out, harass, win small engagements and then have high-tech mech armies late-game (if you don't just win during the earlier pick-and-prod stages) that make use of any advantages you created through your smaller wins earlier. That's the core design. While, on its face, just making decisions that are more straightforward balance-wise might seem like a solution, that's not even how SC1 was balanced. Things are meant to be seemingly OP/UP except in specific contexts. That's how StarCraft has always been designed and hopefully always will be. Anything more straightforward is making the game worse, not better.
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄
Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄
Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them
Oooor, Warp and blink get removed and Protoss gets some proper gateway units in return?
The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle
Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done.
I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1?
On February 19 2023 13:26 Archeon wrote: The starcraft fandom wiki lists that the dragoon was part of the original development and then Kim scrapped it because it felt like it was too reliable of a backbone unit for Protoss.
I always assumed that gateway units suck because warpgate all-ins shouldn't be too powerful, but if that really was the case then they could have just nerfed warpgate more. The reality is that Protoss was supposed to be a gimmicky race that revolves around all-ins and high tier units by design.
On a side note I'd argue that having stronger but slower shots is a buff on a fairly mobile unit.
Protoss was not designed to be gimmicky and revolve around all inns, they made major design flaws and instead of fixing them Protoss pro's have payed the price. Any strong all inn was nerfed, if Protoss has a strong late game army comp, which they should, costs more money takes longer to build harder to defend multiple bases compared to Zerg and Terran, it gets nerfed.
Warp gate was OP at the very beginning right after beta when Protoss players realized ways you could abuse aggressive pylons to warp in units really fast, this was nerfed , warpgate has not been broken since.
The main problem with Warp in is that Protoss gateway units are really bad for the price you pay. Because if Gateway unit's were as strong as they should have been, combined with warp gate the reinforcement and warp in from multiple locations would become really hard to defend and would probably be to strong. ( point being Protoss has been nerfed 2 shit to compensate for these "unique race mechanics".
I have said this since after the warp gate nerfs years ago , Protoss warpin should be a defensive tool with a big CD to use help protoss defend bases in late game in emergency situations, and 99% of gateway production should happen from gateways like Terran does from Barracks, this would keep the "uniqueness" Blizzard "care so much about" and let Protoss have those cool looking warpins while still getting to have a strong gateway army with storm as the main back bone army of the race.
Yeah we could have had really good PVZ PVT with lots of mid game armies clashing back and fourth , trading loads, instead Blizzard optet to keep warpin to keep the race unique and instead nerf all inns and deathballs for 10+ years because they refuse to admit they messed up the design of protoss HARD.
The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle
Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done.
I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1?
I really don't get why they can't just buff Sentry damage from 6 to 8. Actually, it used to be 8. But apparently people felt that Sentries were too strong vs Mutas and "countered" them. Well, this was early WOL days, so everyone was a noob and didn't understand the game. Also, Mutas got buffed several times since then. They regen fast and move way faster. Now that we know that 10 Mutalisks would never struggle vs 10 Sentries (you can just harass elsewhere now that they're super fast), nor would you ever want to make 10 Sentries as a response, can we rebuff Sentry damage to 8? Having a few more damage here and there and picking off a couple more zerglings per engagement would still be nice and add up.
Honestly, buffing the damage to 9 or 10 is probably fine too. You never make mass Sentries, they scale worse later in the game since they die to splash easily. I don't think it would make them busted early game vs Terran.
Also, Protoss struggles with Mutas and lacks options. Phoenixes are great but if caught off guard before you have enough ready it is highly punishing. Buffing Gateway vs Mutaslisk slightly even if it's just a few damage here and there... why not? And it would make Gateway aggression stronger early game, and give more reason to building Sentries early which can always give more push power in the early or mid game where Zergs are feeling too unthreatened right now.
I swear all Protoss needs to be on par is to have charge for zealots give them a small speed buff and an activated charge that allows them to boost to speed they currently have upon attack. Naturally it would have a cool down, This would prevent zealots mass derping in small areas, it would allow zealots to cover ground more quickly to a selected location, it would allow charge for retreat and it would stop zealots charging whilst in the protoss death ball. But most importantly it would allow HIGH LEVEL micro for zealots by having to section your zealots into groups or sequentially activate their charge to allow for optimal engagements.
I feel like Mutas without Blink Stalker and with a Robo opener would just be the death of Protoss. Which kinda means Protoss has to open Stargate every game vZ. Kinda limiting
On February 20 2023 20:14 Harris1st wrote: I feel like Mutas without Blink Stalker and with a Robo opener would just be the death of Protoss. Which kinda means Protoss has to open Stargate every game vZ. Kinda limiting
Not really. Stalkers are already pretty garbage at dealing with Mutalisks. Dragoons weren't very good at handling them in SC1 either. There's a point where Mutalisks in number can pretty much fight directly with larger groups of Stalkers or Dragoons and can outmaneuver them until they get to that point.
The thing is, if Protoss Gateway units were more threatening, earlier, Zerg wouldn't really be able to make any kind of big Mutalisk transition without getting heavily punished or killed for it. The fact that Protoss is capable of responding with as close of a hard counter as we have in Starcraft 2 with the Phoenix also pretty much makes it fair.
Just from the POV of a viewer: I think Blink is one of these abilities that distinguishes top players. Without it, Stargate seems necessary to defend Widow Mine drops or fight against Liberators, even in small numbers. Maybe an increase of the Stalkers anti-air damage would be helpful. Maybe this could even be an upgrade on the Dark Shrine. My armchair analysis from watching many pro-games - one of the most common times when Protoss collapses in TvP seems to be against Liberators.
Gonna take the opportunity to propose the same thing I've been proposing since like 2011.
Don't remove Warp Gate. Swap the way the cooldowns work between Warpgate and Gateway once the warpgate upgrade has been researched.
Basically, once the upgrade has been researched, Gateways make a unit very fast and then you have a long cooldown to be able to make a unit again. While the Warp Gate would take a long time to warp in units at the benefit of it being able to make units anywhere with pylon power. After that, balance units accordingly.
Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game.
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed.
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game.
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed.
For Terran I’d argue the mechanic of tanks was their biggest influence on balance and viable builds.
The moment I read the title I was 300% sure it was you Phantom lol, just enjoy the game
On February 19 2023 21:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: Absolutely warp gate is the root of the issue, Blink is awesome to watch and is a skill cap intensive ability that contributes to the quality of the game. Turning Stalkers into Dragoons just seems bleh.
That being said, there are probably 20 more realistic and easier ways to give Protoss a tiny bit of extra strength in the early game, and WG changes are probably 100% off of the list. I still think the Sentry should be further buffed to be a better overall combat unit in the early game, it really seems like as long as Protoss can put the pressure on Zerg the MU is well balanced, but who knows how that will affect TvP where Terran early game already looks fragile against the multiple openings that Protoss can bring against them.
Simple reality is that just like in BW, Protoss just doesn't perform well in most tournament settings. I don't think anyone is happy about it, but there always has to be someone in last place unfortunately.
100% agree with you man, been saying this since the Sentry buff already, people stopped using it. Since WoL day 1 players would roam the map with Sentry for FF early game and force defense on the enemy, specially Zerg, while teching into Robo or Templar usually, the idea was simple. Of course you can get caught and annihilated but if that happens it means the Zerg made a stupid amount of units and you could play defensive for a while, you have FF, you have Recall! You can previously scout with Hallucination and Adept shades... Damn not even for all in Protoss is using Sentries anymore and they are so damn good, the ravager nerf is a double buff for them, since if the bile goes for the FF then it doesn't hit on your army, on big engagements the Guardian Shield vs Roaches/Marines/Mutas/Hydras is so damn big I can't believe people won't warp 2 at least, same syndrome of Terran not going for Raven sometimes when the utility is so big it can completely change the game (Detection, Fly, Turrets, Harass, Matrix for disabling) You see so many cookie cutter builds is like playing glass cannon constantly and making it worse since we have the "Terrible terrible damage" in SC2 Also why do Protoss players refuse to go for tech or splash/aoe? Like Terrans not going for Siege Tanks or something similar vs Zerg armies which can only be done if you outmicro them HARD.
I will wait for some pros to show the way as many did in the past, like others here stated in the top level the Protoss has the best winning rate but it can not shine on tournaments lately, however herO did quite well and only lost against Oliveira, we almost had a TvP finals as I was expecting.
This Protoss mentality of *I want to win by only using warpgate units without splash and aoe* is the same I had when I started playing Terran and thought stim was stupidly overpower so I played Bio without that, and got rekt constantly until I decided to switch and play Protoss, where I learn so much stuff like Sage TriStalker pressure, White Ra speshul taktics, the game gives a lot of tools and many builds has proven to be good even when no pro are using them but unless they are shown in the highest tournament getting validation by the scrubs then everyone will tell you they are not worth while still crying about imbalance in Diamond or Masters leage...
On February 19 2023 02:54 [Phantom] wrote: But, what if we removed blink? I’m not saying we should, or that it would actually happen. This is just a thought experiment.
Interesting post, thanks.
What if there were an ability/upgrade that when researched replaced Blink with improved Stats for the Stalker? So you research and use Blink for the first 10m or so of the game, then research this and lose Blink but Gain x?
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game.
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed.
The ammount of times some small tweak ended up becoming a hell scape of 1/2 base WP all ins that had to be patched out accordingly was amazing. The potential this mechanic had to make any little buff into an unstoppable all in is unrivaled in the game.
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game.
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed.
The ammount of times some small tweak ended up becoming a hell scape of 1/2 base WP all ins that had to be patched out accordingly was amazing. The potential this mechanic had to make any little buff into an unstoppable all in is unrivaled in the game.
that's more or less where my head is at. the fact that they had to require a nexus/warpgate to pylon radius for improved warp-in speed says it all IMO.
such a cool mechanic in theory, but absolute hell to balance around.
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game.
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed.
For Terran I’d argue the mechanic of tanks was their biggest influence on balance and viable builds.
I think that tanks influence Terran gameplay for sure, but not to the degree as warp gate (see above). I can't recall a specific time where I was like "what is blizzard thinking" EXCEPT for that hot minute that medivacs could pick up and drop sieged tanks was so much fun but sooooo busted haha. I think that was only LOTV beta though and it never made it to live, IIRC
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: I think that tanks influence Terran gameplay for sure, but not to the degree as warp gate (see above). I can't recall a specific time where I was like "what is blizzard thinking" EXCEPT for that hot minute that medivacs could pick up and drop sieged tanks was so much fun but sooooo busted haha. I think that was only LOTV beta though and it never made it to live, IIRC
No it was live. For a little over/under a year it was live. We had entire seasons of professional Starcraft where Tankivacs were part of the meta.
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: I think that tanks influence Terran gameplay for sure, but not to the degree as warp gate (see above). I can't recall a specific time where I was like "what is blizzard thinking" EXCEPT for that hot minute that medivacs could pick up and drop sieged tanks was so much fun but sooooo busted haha. I think that was only LOTV beta though and it never made it to live, IIRC
No it was live. For a little over/under a year it was live. We had entire seasons of professional Starcraft where Tankivacs were part of the meta.
fuck this feels like forever ago. i remember playing them in archon mode with a buddy and that micro being completely busted during the beta.
i think what i'm remembering is the fact that you could almost instantly get a shot off when you dropped the siege tanks during the beta. the live version made it so you had the full weapon cool down or so when they got dropped off by the medivacs right?
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄
It's not, but why should it be ok to be afk, while being ambushed. This is a war game, if you're gonna go and simcity, you should pull back your units, or at least take counter measures to what could happen. In this case split your units.
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage.
Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄
Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them
No I think it's cool that splash counters the massing of units. Splash is for the most part what turns sc2 into a positional game and if we did not have that then it's just a sheer numbers game.
The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle
Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done.
I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1?
I had an idea for Guardian Shield, but I'm not sure how good it is. Instead of reducing damage by ranged attacks by 2, it reduces all damage done to Shields by 2.
On February 20 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote: I swear all Protoss needs to be on par is to have charge for zealots give them a small speed buff and an activated charge that allows them to boost to speed they currently have upon attack. Naturally it would have a cool down, This would prevent zealots mass derping in small areas, it would allow zealots to cover ground more quickly to a selected location, it would allow charge for retreat and it would stop zealots charging whilst in the protoss death ball. But most importantly it would allow HIGH LEVEL micro for zealots by having to section your zealots into groups or sequentially activate their charge to allow for optimal engagements.
Depends how it is implemented. I don't mind derpy Zlots though and feel the same way about Ultralisks. The Zlot/Ultra spammer cannot do much, but instead it's a stress test on the defender to do the correct micro.
Siege tanks are hard to balance, and is maybe the unit of the game which influences maps most. For long periods, it was close to a TvT unit only, which I think was a shame for such an iconic unit in the SC universe.
Tankavacs provided some fresh gameplay, but was too easy to abuse and took away the main weakness of the unit. I don't miss it now, and there were buffs when it was removed.
As for annoying TvT metas, I think the Helbat drop meta early HotS was even worse, and it was dominant all down to scrub level. Fortunately it didn't last that long.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/c/c8/SC2WarpGate.jpg/771px-SC2WarpGate.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/7/75/Blink2.jpg/800px-Blink2.jpg)
Stalker (Legacy of the Void)
