On November 16 2017 22:49 DeadByDawn wrote: Is there a T counter build to the 3 min Oracle, that does not leave you dead moments later? I was thinking of starting to play again, but not sure that now is the time. Did they mention any timeline for a balance redress once they have data?
Actually, there is a build that works really well (at least up to masters level). I'm not going to give the supply timings, but it's basically very, very hard to time correctly. One mistake and you're behind or supply blocked.
1 Supply depot with 1st produced SCV, at top ramp. 2 Barracks and Refinery simultaneously when depot is done 3 Second barracks when you can afford it 4 Second supply depot at ramp (sooner than later to deny scout) 5 Precisely timed second refinery so that you can start factory and rax techlab the moment your second rax finishes 6 Factory 7 Choice of Combat shield or stim (depends on ordering a bit). 8 Orbital & 3rd depot 9 Reactor on Factory & Starport. When done, switch, and start cyclone & 2 medivacs. 10 Ebay With this build, you will have enough marines to hold anything early, including the 3min oracle timing, plus when your medivacs with 15/16 marines leave to attack with stim done, you have cyclone at home to defend, tank production ready, missle turret available if you want to build.
During your attack, you WILL have more firepower than your opponent. Don't lose any. Meanwhile, keep them pinned, build your 2nd (and maybe 3rd) CC, and get your ekon in superior position.
A lot of people might complain that this is "noob" to go 1-base. Whatever. It works, and if you do it right, it works really, really well. And it holds basically everything.
And the point is, by the time your attack is done, you're in a better position than the protoss economically.
The key is to make them pay for having a faster economy than you by building as much as possible to start and bashing them with it without taking bad fights (i.e. ones where you lose the majority of your pressure).
This works against: Proxy oracle DT rush Fast 3 Nexus Cannon rush Immortal rush
On November 16 2017 22:49 DeadByDawn wrote: Is there a T counter build to the 3 min Oracle, that does not leave you dead moments later? I was thinking of starting to play again, but not sure that now is the time. Did they mention any timeline for a balance redress once they have data?
Actually, there is a build that works really well (at least up to masters level). I'm not going to give the supply timings, but it's basically very, very hard to time correctly. One mistake and you're behind or supply blocked.
1 Supply depot with 1st produced SCV, at top ramp. 2 Barracks and Refinery simultaneously when depot is done 3 Second barracks when you can afford it 4 Second supply depot at ramp (sooner than later to deny scout) 5 Precisely timed second refinery so that you can start factory and rax techlab the moment your second rax finishes 6 Factory 7 Choice of Combat shield or stim (depends on ordering a bit). 8 Orbital & 3rd depot 9 Reactor on Factory & Starport. When done, switch, and start cyclone & 2 medivacs. 10 Ebay With this build, you will have enough marines to hold anything early, including the 3min oracle timing, plus when your medivacs with 15/16 marines leave to attack with stim done, you have cyclone at home to defend, tank production ready, missle turret available if you want to build.
During your attack, you WILL have more firepower than your opponent. Don't lose any. Meanwhile, keep them pinned, build your 2nd (and maybe 3rd) CC, and get your ekon in superior position.
A lot of people might complain that this is "noob" to go 1-base. Whatever. It works, and if you do it right, it works really, really well. And it holds basically everything.
And the point is, by the time your attack is done, you're in a better position than the protoss economically.
The key is to make them pay for having a faster economy than you by building as much as possible to start and bashing them with it without taking bad fights (i.e. ones where you lose the majority of your pressure).
This works against: Proxy oracle DT rush Fast 3 Nexus Cannon rush Immortal rush
Before patch I am certain I had barely held with fast non proxy oracles saving energy on wards which makes terran behind. After patch it is hard to call since the chornoboost is weaker for longer game and the overcharging pylon is gone.
The best way to fix the problem is to remove the initial 50 energy.
On November 16 2017 18:09 ProMeTheus112 wrote: In games like Quake or UT, there was always the option of turning opponents skins to either a specific skin or a bright colored version of their skin so that the readability is top notch. Good players would also usually play on very low graphic settings not so they would get more FPS, but so they would get maximum read with no small details getting in the way of viewing everything clear instantly all the time.
It's the dev's job to either give the players these options, or only make skins that will be perfectly or equally comfortable to read the gameplay, or both. That is if they care about the competitive players. Unless you just want it to be part of the game that you can gain an extra edge by camouflaging your units by switching to a bought skin, which is pretty dumb from a starcraft player point of view I think @@
For the record, and this goes for the other people saying Quake is a shining example of visibility and customization:
Quake Champions does not follow this trend, and considering it for the moment is the newest and most popular quake, it's disingenuous to say quake has a way to turn off skins. Instead, they have their own cluttered skins and have plenty of problems with visibility in the game, with no supported way to remove textures, simplify the environment, and so on.
I'm actually believe in Blizzard. They should fix it, no doubts. Also Stalkers i'm pretty sure they are quite strong right now. Don't see any good unit for terran as a core unit. Probably, marauders with some buff (+HP)?
On November 17 2017 12:37 engesser1 wrote: I'm actually believe in Blizzard. They should fix it, no doubts. Also Stalkers i'm pretty sure they are quite strong right now. Don't see any good unit for terran as a core unit. Probably, marauders with some buff (+HP)?
Terran units are still quite strong in the midgame , especially when using hit and run tactics. Infact I think that drops and nexus snipes got significantly stronger this patch. The problem is that most terran players At least in masters and below (my range of experience) can't make it to the midgame in any kind of decent shape. Protoss has a huge range of abusive allins and pressure builds that they have to account for in there build to play a solid style and they eiether outright lose to allins, or lose to macro openings because they had to blind counter allins and play from behind..
On November 17 2017 12:37 engesser1 wrote: I'm actually believe in Blizzard. They should fix it, no doubts. Also Stalkers i'm pretty sure they are quite strong right now. Don't see any good unit for terran as a core unit. Probably, marauders with some buff (+HP)?
Terran units are still quite strong in the midgame , especially when using hit and run tactics. Infact I think that drops and nexus snipes got significantly stronger this patch. The problem is that most terran players At least in masters and below (my range of experience) can't make it to the midgame in any kind of decent shape. Protoss has a huge range of abusive allins and pressure builds that they have to account for in there build to play a solid style and they eiether outright lose to allins, or lose to macro openings because they had to blind counter allins and play from behind..
I wasn't talking about that or late game (we find a way, i believe). I was talking about 3min oracle's problem and early pressure with stalkers/bs.
I cannot believe someone like you is still arguing about the skins. What is so hard to understand? For the casual playerbase skins mean a lot, they are tagerted here. That also includes showing your skin to the opponent. Read the last sentence a couple of times so you REALLY understand why paying for turning off skins will NEVER be an option.
In almost all games on all levels the outcome of a game wont be decided because of the skin of the unit. Your ladder rank over time will DEFINETELY NOT depend on skins being on or off.
And in tournaments skins are off so no game outcome is affected by skins.
How on earth this subject is so difficult to understand from Blizzard and overall playerbase point of view and see someone like you argue over this for so long is beyond me.
You're incredibly naive.
Hopefully blizzard just takes the initiative in just adding a client side toggle to disable skins. The alternative solution will be like what most people do in league, just patch and replace the files for the skins.
Both sides win no matter the course. The people that want to see their 'cool' units get to do so, those that don't want their playing experience negatively impacted don't have to.
'What most people do in league' rofl
Who is naive?
I'm sorry what's funny about what I said?
Unless they have changed their stance in the last few years it was more than possible tor replace all skins client side with their default version. When Riot released that they were alright with this I followed suit and so did many others.
On November 17 2017 12:37 engesser1 wrote: I'm actually believe in Blizzard. They should fix it, no doubts. Also Stalkers i'm pretty sure they are quite strong right now. Don't see any good unit for terran as a core unit. Probably, marauders with some buff (+HP)?
Terran units are still quite strong in the midgame , especially when using hit and run tactics.
Wow! What nonsense we are forced to read right here
Hit and run is absolutly not a tactic, H&R is only to survive to chargelot, or speedlings. Ofc Terran is forced to kite with his bioball if he wants to avoid to die quickly. Terran has no T3 units which would allow him to attack with ease his opponent. He has to play all game long with tier 1 tier 2 units and don't forget upgrades. Obviously, he abuses of his mobility thanks to medivacs.
On November 17 2017 12:37 engesser1 wrote: I'm actually believe in Blizzard. They should fix it, no doubts. Also Stalkers i'm pretty sure they are quite strong right now. Don't see any good unit for terran as a core unit. Probably, marauders with some buff (+HP)?
Terran units are still quite strong in the midgame , especially when using hit and run tactics.
Wow! What nonsense we are forced to read right here
Hit and run is absolutly not a tactic, H&R is only to survive to chargelot, or speedlings. Ofc Terran is forced to kite with his bioball if he wants to avoid to die quickly. Terran has no T3 units which would allow him to attack with ease his opponent. He has to play all game long with tier 1 tier 2 units and don't forget upgrades. Obviously, he abuses of his mobility thanks to medivacs.
first of all way to quote me out of context you ignore all the other things I said that preface my argument. I wrote
On November 17 2017 12:50 washikie wrote:
Terran units are still quite strong in the midgame , especially when using hit and run tactics. Infact I think that drops and nexus snipes got significantly stronger this patch. The problem is that most terran players At least in masters and below (my range of experience) can't make it to the midgame in any kind of decent shape. Protoss has a huge range of abusive allins and pressure builds that they have to account for in there build to play a solid style and they eiether outright lose to allins, or lose to macro openings because they had to blind counter allins and play from behind..
for context I'm a masters Terran so no bias man. I'm not saying terran is fine right now, I'm saying that the problem is not terran units are to week, the problem is terran is usually to wounded from the early game to use there good units. I dont know why you correlated hit and run tactics with kiting?? What I meant was that terran midgame medivac drops are more dangerous than ever with removal of msc, you can pull the toss army apart and than crush the parts, just like in hots. The issue is terran can almost never get to mid game in half decent shape because of all the early game shenanigans toss has. as for late game, despite the stalker buff ranged libs are still pretty damn good, the problem is just once agian how do you get to that point while staying even with protoss in a meta where the number of potential game ending allins forces you to open in a very disadvantageous and predictable way to stay alive?
Well, OK, I misunderstood your "hit and run" expression. Simply, you talk about drop play. But I still disagree with you about chances has Terran to make some damages with only marines marauders and medivacs even if he multidrops like a crazy korean.
Tell me how to make damages with no AOE in my composition anymore. In HOTS, a WM was able to decimate a fully mineral line of probes or drones in one shot. ( maybe it was a little bit too strong ). Here and now, WM can be dodge with a sacrificed probe, no need obs anymore, and tanks are crushed by a small bunsh of blink stalkers helped by a shield battery. IMO, Drops in HoTS were way more dangerous just because of WM. Now drop without AOE or only one WM are not so lethal.
As you say, in state, early game forces terran to make some choices which put him behind economicaly and let him with less army supply than his opponent, so when the terran is able to go out of his base on a stim +1 medivac timing, the toss is on 3 bases and enough units to deal with a simple marines marauders drop. Then, if the toss knows macroing a little bit, he wins the game.
I don't want to tell about Cyclones or ravens, in state, those units are useful only in rare cases.
Finally, I just want to tell this patch is a pure joke by Blizzard. I will not play again before an emergency patch.
On November 16 2017 22:49 DeadByDawn wrote: Is there a T counter build to the 3 min Oracle, that does not leave you dead moments later? I was thinking of starting to play again, but not sure that now is the time. Did they mention any timeline for a balance redress once they have data?
No there isn't. They need to fix this problem asap.
CC first into 3 rax and rax -> gas -> reactor -> CC build enough marines in time. Not perfect solutions by any means but they'll get you started on the ladder. For the top level, IMHO the former is too greedy to develop into a standard opener and the latter lacks a reaper for scouting and creating space. My guess is either people will figure out other builds or Blizzard will need to patch it.
How much does SCV scout cost?
50 Minerals. :^)
Both T and P are 'forced' into scouting in both mirrors and opposing match-ups now. 17 SCV scout doesn't feel the greatest, especially when up until this point a reaper gave you everything that you could have wanted for the initial phase.
It's possible to scout and react to so there really is no problem there, we'll just have to wait and see if there is any follow up to it that actually makes it completely broken. The shield battery contain is probably a bigger 'issue' overall but most people keep trying non-viable openings against it and thus we get to the discussion at hand.
I don't think Sc2 has had any true one dimensional forced build scenarios like the one at hand so it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
On November 17 2017 17:46 Obsidian55 wrote: In HOTS, a WM was able to decimate a fully mineral line of probes or drones in one shot. ( maybe it was a little bit too strong ). Here and now, WM can be dodge with a sacrificed probe, no need obs anymore [...]. IMO, Drops in HoTS were way more dangerous just because of WM. Now drop without AOE or only one WM are not so lethal.
The only difference between HotS and current WM is the visibility while recharging, regarding mineral line harassment. Probes and drones are still dying to a single shot. Are you implying players' improved reactions to a burrowed WM in mineral line is a nerf in this patch?
On November 17 2017 17:46 Obsidian55 wrote: In HOTS, a WM was able to decimate a fully mineral line of probes or drones in one shot. ( maybe it was a little bit too strong ). Here and now, WM can be dodge with a sacrificed probe, no need obs anymore [...]. IMO, Drops in HoTS were way more dangerous just because of WM. Now drop without AOE or only one WM are not so lethal.
The only difference between HotS and current WM is the visibility while recharging, regarding mineral line harassment. Probes and drones are still dying to a single shot. Are you implying players' improved reactions to a burrowed WM in mineral line is a nerf in this patch?
WM is maybe unit the most modified since HOTS release. The splash damage has been nerfed since start of HOTS as well as spash radius.
We passed from a totally broken unit to litteraly useless unit. That s fine
I don't understand what you say. OFC WM burrowed in a mineral line forces a reaction from the opponent like to sacrifice a probe, like before patch, but difference is now WM is revealed during its cooldown so no need obs, only units to kill it.
I feel like the Protoss made some easily correctable mistakes there like losing that void ray for nothing. Does Inno break the contain if it is part of the fight?
I feel like the Protoss made some easily correctable mistakes there like losing that void ray for nothing. Does Inno break the contain if it is part of the fight?
Well, replace it with herO, and Inno is dead for 5 min. he played against Cyan, just 6.2k protoss.
EPT
). Here and now, WM can be dodge with a sacrificed probe, no need obs anymore, and tanks are crushed by a small bunsh of blink stalkers helped by a shield battery. 
he played against Cyan, just 6.2k protoss.
