EPTIs WarpGate really the root of all evil? - Page 3
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Hildegard
Germany348 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile163 Posts
Don't remove Warp Gate. Swap the way the cooldowns work between Warpgate and Gateway once the warpgate upgrade has been researched. Basically, once the upgrade has been researched, Gateways make a unit very fast and then you have a long cooldown to be able to make a unit again. While the Warp Gate would take a long time to warp in units at the benefit of it being able to make units anywhere with pylon power. After that, balance units accordingly. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19359 Posts
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game. The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed. For Terran I’d argue the mechanic of tanks was their biggest influence on balance and viable builds. | ||
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Sogetsu
514 Posts
On February 19 2023 21:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: Absolutely warp gate is the root of the issue, Blink is awesome to watch and is a skill cap intensive ability that contributes to the quality of the game. Turning Stalkers into Dragoons just seems bleh. That being said, there are probably 20 more realistic and easier ways to give Protoss a tiny bit of extra strength in the early game, and WG changes are probably 100% off of the list. I still think the Sentry should be further buffed to be a better overall combat unit in the early game, it really seems like as long as Protoss can put the pressure on Zerg the MU is well balanced, but who knows how that will affect TvP where Terran early game already looks fragile against the multiple openings that Protoss can bring against them. Simple reality is that just like in BW, Protoss just doesn't perform well in most tournament settings. I don't think anyone is happy about it, but there always has to be someone in last place unfortunately. 100% agree with you man, been saying this since the Sentry buff already, people stopped using it. Since WoL day 1 players would roam the map with Sentry for FF early game and force defense on the enemy, specially Zerg, while teching into Robo or Templar usually, the idea was simple. Of course you can get caught and annihilated but if that happens it means the Zerg made a stupid amount of units and you could play defensive for a while, you have FF, you have Recall! You can previously scout with Hallucination and Adept shades... Damn not even for all in Protoss is using Sentries anymore and they are so damn good, the ravager nerf is a double buff for them, since if the bile goes for the FF then it doesn't hit on your army, on big engagements the Guardian Shield vs Roaches/Marines/Mutas/Hydras is so damn big I can't believe people won't warp 2 at least, same syndrome of Terran not going for Raven sometimes when the utility is so big it can completely change the game (Detection, Fly, Turrets, Harass, Matrix for disabling) You see so many cookie cutter builds is like playing glass cannon constantly and making it worse since we have the "Terrible terrible damage" in SC2 Also why do Protoss players refuse to go for tech or splash/aoe? Like Terrans not going for Siege Tanks or something similar vs Zerg armies which can only be done if you outmicro them HARD. I will wait for some pros to show the way as many did in the past, like others here stated in the top level the Protoss has the best winning rate but it can not shine on tournaments lately, however herO did quite well and only lost against Oliveira, we almost had a TvP finals as I was expecting. This Protoss mentality of *I want to win by only using warpgate units without splash and aoe* is the same I had when I started playing Terran and thought stim was stupidly overpower so I played Bio without that, and got rekt constantly until I decided to switch and play Protoss, where I learn so much stuff like Sage TriStalker pressure, White Ra speshul taktics, the game gives a lot of tools and many builds has proven to be good even when no pro are using them but unless they are shown in the highest tournament getting validation by the scrubs then everyone will tell you they are not worth while still crying about imbalance in Diamond or Masters leage... | ||
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TequilaMockingbird
Germany64 Posts
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2217 Posts
On February 19 2023 02:54 [Phantom] wrote: But, what if we removed blink? I’m not saying we should, or that it would actually happen. This is just a thought experiment. Interesting post, thanks. What if there were an ability/upgrade that when researched replaced Blink with improved Stats for the Stalker? So you research and use Blink for the first 10m or so of the game, then research this and lose Blink but Gain x? | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I would go as far as to say that Warpgate has influenced Starcraft 2 more than any other mechanic in the game. The only other mechanic that I would say is more influential than that is Spit Larva, however, that mechanic has stayed the same over the years while Warpgate (and consequently Warp Prisms) have been significantly changed. The ammount of times some small tweak ended up becoming a hell scape of 1/2 base WP all ins that had to be patched out accordingly was amazing. The potential this mechanic had to make any little buff into an unstoppable all in is unrivaled in the game. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
On February 21 2023 19:02 Lexender wrote: The ammount of times some small tweak ended up becoming a hell scape of 1/2 base WP all ins that had to be patched out accordingly was amazing. The potential this mechanic had to make any little buff into an unstoppable all in is unrivaled in the game. that's more or less where my head is at. the fact that they had to require a nexus/warpgate to pylon radius for improved warp-in speed says it all IMO. such a cool mechanic in theory, but absolute hell to balance around. On February 21 2023 08:53 BisuDagger wrote: For Terran I’d argue the mechanic of tanks was their biggest influence on balance and viable builds. I think that tanks influence Terran gameplay for sure, but not to the degree as warp gate (see above). I can't recall a specific time where I was like "what is blizzard thinking" EXCEPT for that hot minute that medivacs could pick up and drop sieged tanks was so much fun but sooooo busted haha. I think that was only LOTV beta though and it never made it to live, IIRC | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On February 21 2023 05:03 BluemoonSC wrote: I think that tanks influence Terran gameplay for sure, but not to the degree as warp gate (see above). I can't recall a specific time where I was like "what is blizzard thinking" EXCEPT for that hot minute that medivacs could pick up and drop sieged tanks was so much fun but sooooo busted haha. I think that was only LOTV beta though and it never made it to live, IIRC No it was live. For a little over/under a year it was live. We had entire seasons of professional Starcraft where Tankivacs were part of the meta. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1924 Posts
On February 22 2023 03:23 Vindicare605 wrote: No it was live. For a little over/under a year it was live. We had entire seasons of professional Starcraft where Tankivacs were part of the meta. And we really only got one great TvT out of it... But, yeah, doom drop meta was hot garbage. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
i think what i'm remembering is the fact that you could almost instantly get a shot off when you dropped the siege tanks during the beta. the live version made it so you had the full weapon cool down or so when they got dropped off by the medivacs right? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
On February 20 2023 00:50 Slydie wrote: Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄 It's not, but why should it be ok to be afk, while being ambushed. This is a war game, if you're gonna go and simcity, you should pull back your units, or at least take counter measures to what could happen. In this case split your units. On February 20 2023 01:53 Nebuchad wrote: Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them No I think it's cool that splash counters the massing of units. Splash is for the most part what turns sc2 into a positional game and if we did not have that then it's just a sheer numbers game. On February 20 2023 03:48 Beelzebub1 wrote: Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done. I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1? I had an idea for Guardian Shield, but I'm not sure how good it is. Instead of reducing damage by ranged attacks by 2, it reduces all damage done to Shields by 2. On February 20 2023 15:43 AxiomB wrote: I swear all Protoss needs to be on par is to have charge for zealots give them a small speed buff and an activated charge that allows them to boost to speed they currently have upon attack. Naturally it would have a cool down, This would prevent zealots mass derping in small areas, it would allow zealots to cover ground more quickly to a selected location, it would allow charge for retreat and it would stop zealots charging whilst in the protoss death ball. But most importantly it would allow HIGH LEVEL micro for zealots by having to section your zealots into groups or sequentially activate their charge to allow for optimal engagements. Depends how it is implemented. I don't mind derpy Zlots though and feel the same way about Ultralisks. The Zlot/Ultra spammer cannot do much, but instead it's a stress test on the defender to do the correct micro. | ||
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Slydie
1937 Posts
Tankavacs provided some fresh gameplay, but was too easy to abuse and took away the main weakness of the unit. I don't miss it now, and there were buffs when it was removed. As for annoying TvT metas, I think the Helbat drop meta early HotS was even worse, and it was dominant all down to scrub level. Fortunately it didn't last that long. | ||
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