EPTIs WarpGate really the root of all evil? - Page 2
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12376 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
That being said, there are probably 20 more realistic and easier ways to give Protoss a tiny bit of extra strength in the early game, and WG changes are probably 100% off of the list. I still think the Sentry should be further buffed to be a better overall combat unit in the early game, it really seems like as long as Protoss can put the pressure on Zerg the MU is well balanced, but who knows how that will affect TvP where Terran early game already looks fragile against the multiple openings that Protoss can bring against them. Simple reality is that just like in BW, Protoss just doesn't perform well in most tournament settings. I don't think anyone is happy about it, but there always has to be someone in last place unfortunately. | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3086 Posts
I just never felt that blink on such a core unit felt right in the game. Throw in the fact that it bypasses terrain so swiftly and you indeed have yourself a bit of a problemo. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
On February 19 2023 08:17 Scarlett` wrote: yes, it is anyway stalker damage/cd change was partially reverted because 15 base damage made it 3 shot scvs and marines early game which was considered too strong at the time blizzard has a hard rule with damage upgrade scaling as well which reduced its scaling vs non armored as a result (+10% per upgrade rounded, min 1 max 5) A rule is made to be broken. Stalkers are symptomatic about SC2, two armies back and forth denying the whole part of the map outside their direct/main path (in straight line). It s symptomatic about the teleport ability and the warping ability which doesn t bother of walk and reach a place to control (or in the case of blink, abuse from cliffs jump which could be cool in a funny and slower game) | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 19 2023 15:40 Nebuchad wrote: Said it before, will say it again, fairly certain the marine is the root of all evil. Nope! The extreme clumping is the root of all evil. Marines just profit the most from that. | ||
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ZeroByte13
780 Posts
On February 19 2023 08:19 TossHeroes wrote: Somewhat decent? I still remember that game of Inno vs some protoss, whenIt was only somewhat decent when stalker could 3 shot a marine and when zealot charge was awesome - Inno had multiple tanks sieged, a few bunkers and a wall of engi-bays and depots - and protoss had just zealot-archon, roughly same supply ...and Inno just died to the attack. Commentator was silent for 5-7 seconds after that because it was so absurd. Deeply entrenched terran with siege tanks, bunkers and a wall in front of them just died to the same limit of melee units. Zealots were broken with that 8 damage on charge, it was obvious. At least TvP was in a terrible state back then. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3463 Posts
On February 19 2023 22:29 RogerChillingworth wrote: I actually agree with the general point that blink is awful. Especially on a core unit such as the Stalker. I think on DTs it's kiiinda cool, but even then it has proven quite problematic. I just never felt that blink on such a core unit felt right in the game. Throw in the fact that it bypasses terrain so swiftly and you indeed have yourself a bit of a problemo. You could say the same about a core unit damaging itself (stim), so it heavily implies you should go Medivac. Even Mech is politely asked to have Medivacs for the Hellbats. Zerg is full of core units that can evolve. They can almost instantly get stronger (bypasses larvae mechanic) & (bypasses defenders advantage). Baneling/Ravager/Hellion/Hellbat that are "core units" have AoE. Zerg core units benefit from Creep (weaker without Creep). Etc. etc. On February 20 2023 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: Nope! The extreme clumping is the root of all evil. Marines just profit the most from that. You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage. | ||
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Slydie
1927 Posts
You'd think splash damage would be the grand solution to this problem, but instead people in charge of the game continues to nerf splash damage, indirectly buffing clumped up units and f2 usage. Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄 | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3086 Posts
Thing is you can't change 1 thing about SC2 and call it a day. It's a ripple effect. Just removing blink and changing nothing else would obviously not be the right call. You could look to do things to the adept that make it take on more of a stalker role, or vice versa. Adapting blink to be more like a short shade or something. In the end, we like blink because of the micro and skill that someone like hero or parting shows with it. But you could have a lot more micro in the game if the lethality were toned down. But now we're talking about a different game :x. The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle  | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12376 Posts
On February 20 2023 00:50 Slydie wrote: Because losing 30 supply in the blink of an eye to boom-balls because you were dropping mules is so fun🙄 Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them | ||
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QuiL
Germany9 Posts
On February 20 2023 01:53 Nebuchad wrote: Would absolutely love a game where your core units aren't so strong that we are forced to go splash against them Oooor, Warp and blink get removed and Protoss gets some proper gateway units in return?  | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
The game is what it is and outside of minor tweaks don't think we're going to get anything else this late in the life cycle Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done. I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1? | ||
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Drahkn
194 Posts
On February 19 2023 13:26 Archeon wrote: The starcraft fandom wiki lists that the dragoon was part of the original development and then Kim scrapped it because it felt like it was too reliable of a backbone unit for Protoss. I always assumed that gateway units suck because warpgate all-ins shouldn't be too powerful, but if that really was the case then they could have just nerfed warpgate more. The reality is that Protoss was supposed to be a gimmicky race that revolves around all-ins and high tier units by design. On a side note I'd argue that having stronger but slower shots is a buff on a fairly mobile unit. Protoss was not designed to be gimmicky and revolve around all inns, they made major design flaws and instead of fixing them Protoss pro's have payed the price. Any strong all inn was nerfed, if Protoss has a strong late game army comp, which they should, costs more money takes longer to build harder to defend multiple bases compared to Zerg and Terran, it gets nerfed. Warp gate was OP at the very beginning right after beta when Protoss players realized ways you could abuse aggressive pylons to warp in units really fast, this was nerfed , warpgate has not been broken since. The main problem with Warp in is that Protoss gateway units are really bad for the price you pay. Because if Gateway unit's were as strong as they should have been, combined with warp gate the reinforcement and warp in from multiple locations would become really hard to defend and would probably be to strong. ( point being Protoss has been nerfed 2 shit to compensate for these "unique race mechanics". I have said this since after the warp gate nerfs years ago , Protoss warpin should be a defensive tool with a big CD to use help protoss defend bases in late game in emergency situations, and 99% of gateway production should happen from gateways like Terran does from Barracks, this would keep the "uniqueness" Blizzard "care so much about" and let Protoss have those cool looking warpins while still getting to have a strong gateway army with storm as the main back bone army of the race. Yeah we could have had really good PVZ PVT with lots of mid game armies clashing back and fourth , trading loads, instead Blizzard optet to keep warpin to keep the race unique and instead nerf all inns and deathballs for 10+ years because they refuse to admit they messed up the design of protoss HARD. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On February 20 2023 03:48 Beelzebub1 wrote: Nor is anything else needed imo, the state of the game is good, Protoss just looks like they could use some very minor buff to early/mid game GW aggression to make Zerg's have to play a bit safer but not break early game TvP, obviously this is easier said then done. I'm still on the buff sentries though, I really want to believe that if they were just a taaad bit better then Protoss early game as a whole would just feel better. Maybe buff Guardian Shield to also work against melee? Make Sentries do more damage? Make FF require 2 biles instead of 1? I really don't get why they can't just buff Sentry damage from 6 to 8. Actually, it used to be 8. But apparently people felt that Sentries were too strong vs Mutas and "countered" them. Well, this was early WOL days, so everyone was a noob and didn't understand the game. Also, Mutas got buffed several times since then. They regen fast and move way faster. Now that we know that 10 Mutalisks would never struggle vs 10 Sentries (you can just harass elsewhere now that they're super fast), nor would you ever want to make 10 Sentries as a response, can we rebuff Sentry damage to 8? Having a few more damage here and there and picking off a couple more zerglings per engagement would still be nice and add up. Honestly, buffing the damage to 9 or 10 is probably fine too. You never make mass Sentries, they scale worse later in the game since they die to splash easily. I don't think it would make them busted early game vs Terran. Also, Protoss struggles with Mutas and lacks options. Phoenixes are great but if caught off guard before you have enough ready it is highly punishing. Buffing Gateway vs Mutaslisk slightly even if it's just a few damage here and there... why not? And it would make Gateway aggression stronger early game, and give more reason to building Sentries early which can always give more push power in the early or mid game where Zergs are feeling too unthreatened right now. | ||
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AxiomB
69 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7021 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16109 Posts
On February 20 2023 20:14 Harris1st wrote: I feel like Mutas without Blink Stalker and with a Robo opener would just be the death of Protoss. Which kinda means Protoss has to open Stargate every game vZ. Kinda limiting Not really. Stalkers are already pretty garbage at dealing with Mutalisks. Dragoons weren't very good at handling them in SC1 either. There's a point where Mutalisks in number can pretty much fight directly with larger groups of Stalkers or Dragoons and can outmaneuver them until they get to that point. The thing is, if Protoss Gateway units were more threatening, earlier, Zerg wouldn't really be able to make any kind of big Mutalisk transition without getting heavily punished or killed for it. The fact that Protoss is capable of responding with as close of a hard counter as we have in Starcraft 2 with the Phoenix also pretty much makes it fair. | ||
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darklycid
3517 Posts
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