EPTTerran had worst result in 21-22 Premier tourneys - Page 4
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sim999999
23 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
From my perspective, it seems like the natural flow of Zerg games is that if they're not super far behind midgame, they naturally out expand the other race while having massive map vision and then overwhelm the other race by trading waves of units with a superior economy. It feels like there's a timer on the other race to stop Zerg before they hit that lategame. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18219 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 01 2022 04:35 nojok wrote: If we're discussing based on statistics, the future of protoss thread has 45 pages, this one only has 4, we can only conclude that protoss is weaker than terran. Terran’s PPM (post per month) is higher though. It’s unfair they aren’t winning if they’re doing stuff faster | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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bulletbill
Canada33 Posts
id add lurkers as to the big reason as why. not sure if that is the crux of why zerg dominate but it sure feels like it seems like it. | ||
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Kiaph
112 Posts
If you have the time to score the semi-finalist per race, with the top dogs removed, that would be interesting as well. I hope the latter of the two counts has pretty close results, if no one does this in a day or two, if I think about this on lunch one day at work I may do the tally myself. Those players would be: Based of aligulac Zerg: Serral Raynor Protoss: Zest MaxPax Terran: Maru Clem (pulled from List314) | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
I also feel BW is somewhat Zerg-favoured now. Yet, I still get a lot of joy watching the games. That's because even abusive plays (hydra bust, muta micro, dark swarm) still comes with a lot of nice strategic and tactical touches. Maybe I'm biased and a BW elitist. But as much as I really want to support SC2 (sometimes I just turn on the stream without watching just to add viewership), I think I would rather invest my time and energy in ASL. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4733 Posts
The other problem is without new blood getting into the scene, the power structure at the top is very unlikely to change. It was mentioned above that if Dark and Rogue retire, what other Zerg would have a chance to win Code S. That question to me is flawed in a sense, because when 2-3 additional top players retire, you might actually struggle to find 16 players in Korea to compete in the first place - this is simply not Code S anymore where anything can happen and only absolut monsters like MVP, Life, Innovation could win several times. For people that are following the scene since 10+ years (including BW), we are mostly aware (I assume) that a little tweak in maps or s slight spin of the startegic foundation of a match-up by one race (say P in PvZ) might lead to a shift in the matchup and drastic different outcomes. Or even a slight balance change by Blizzard could do the trick. The problem for me is that there is noone left to perform such a task, when no top players are left to lead the charge and no blood is coming in. SC2 is super fun to watch, but it needs new players in Korea (everywhere, really) to survive. Otherwise it will be a european game very soon. | ||
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661
71 Posts
On February 28 2022 21:07 TheCheapSkate wrote: Had absolutely zero interest in watching the playoffs of iem since I knew it was gonna be another zerg victory. It kinda ruins the fun of competitive games when the result is known beforehand and the only thing to find out which of the zergs is better at zvz that day. Oracle! Please PM me the next winning lottery numbers, thank you. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1262 Posts
On March 01 2022 17:33 Malinor wrote: Balance is one thing, and I am not remotely qualified to speak to that. The other problem is without new blood getting into the scene, the power structure at the top is very unlikely to change. It was mentioned above that if Dark and Rogue retire, what other Zerg would have a chance to win Code S. That question to me is flawed in a sense, because when 2-3 additional top players retire, you might actually struggle to find 16 players in Korea to compete in the first place - this is simply not Code S anymore where anything can happen and only absolut monsters like MVP, Life, Innovation could win several times. For people that are following the scene since 10+ years (including BW), we are mostly aware (I assume) that a little tweak in maps or s slight spin of the startegic foundation of a match-up by one race (say P in PvZ) might lead to a shift in the matchup and drastic different outcomes. Or even a slight balance change by Blizzard could do the trick. The problem for me is that there is noone left to perform such a task, when no top players are left to lead the charge and no blood is coming in. SC2 is super fun to watch, but it needs new players in Korea (everywhere, really) to survive. Otherwise it will be a european game very soon. You are totally right, but sadly, there isn't much you can do about that. I would never say SC2 is a "dead game", but it definetly is a "closed game", meaning you have to work with the player-pool you have, there won't be much new blod anymore. If we get lucky, maybe someone like ByuN shows up, who has played the game at a decent level in the past and now invests more time in it again, but how likely is it that something like that happens again? For the most part: Imagine someone has seen IEM now and thinks "wow, this game is awesome!" He picks it up and wants to compete at it at a high level. How long would you say does someone need to play the game at an above decent level, lets say Master? Six to nine month of dedicated play? And how long after that until he can play not only in high level tournaments, but actually compete with the best? Two years? Three? Obviously fulltime. Why would anyone make such an investment? Since there is barely any team-structure and no above S-class support system, you completly rely on streaming or the occasional cup win to finance yourself. And even IF you have the skill and dedication to become the next great player, why would you start that in a game that can't guarantee you, that it will have significant money to give out in three years? Grubby was once asked "if I pick up WC3 now, what would I need the most to become a pro gamer?" and his answer was "you need to have started playing the game 10 years ago". Same goes for a lot of older games, that just don't have much fluctuation anymore. It is not like in CS:GO or LoL, where you have a rich playerbase and a multi-layered support system that provides money for those who aren't playing in the highest tier. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
NA less so, although there’s a similar structure there doesn’t seem the depth in the region to prepare a new player to gradually improve to the level of making a decent living as a pro. Kr is still too stacked, especially relative to the prize pools. Unless you’ve already got team backing, you need to immediately be a player capable of at minimum making Code S every season, ideally being good enough to make deep runs and qualify for international tournaments. If one looks at Trap’s career earnings and compares to some of his peers, considering he’s got the record for GSL Ro8s in a row, those GSL silvers, those STs and those internationals, he’s pretty illustrative about how the Korean prize pools have been declining. And that’s Trap having some of the most resolutely consistent few years it’s almost possible to have. I think blooding new players is certainly more likely if patches keep coming in some form. When a game has been static for so long, like WC3 or BW it’s really hard to overcome. A lot of stock knowledge is in people’s memories and not written down, or it’s spread all over the internet and hard to find. Or tidbits of particular knowledge are holdovers from previous metas and the old hand knows what’s up in a wonky scenario, where a new player is highly unlikely to. Despite great efforts in many instances, you only have to go look to see how outdated some resources are for SC2 or BW. On the plus side I think WC3 is a great example that older players with that knowledge can be the dominant players in an eSports title. Certain old preconceptions about longevity seem to be long dispelled. AoE4 has both AoE veterans and general RTS veterans making hay in new fields, which I think bodes well for it but any potential SC/WC successor too | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On February 28 2022 07:50 Nakajin wrote: Funilly despite getting almost twice as many final spot as the two other race combined, it was actually a down year for zerg as the last three year total is 26(t)-24(p)-55(z). Winning in the last three year is even more zerg favored as it's 12(t)-9(p)-31(z). Yikes. Those last 3 years of stats looks very lopsided for Zerg. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
Specifically as to their World Championship performance surely them tending to take part on really, really played out balance patches and maps has something to do with it to? | ||
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yoshi245
United States2972 Posts
On March 02 2022 05:11 xelnaga_empire wrote: Yikes. Those last 3 years of stats looks very lopsided for Zerg. That's surprising, I never looked at the stats myself but it clearly shows that Zerg at the top end dominates overall. If no balance patches will happen in the foreseeable future then the only recourse are maps. There needs to be more maps that at the very least give more advantages for Terrans and Protoss against Zerg. It's getting to the point where we've had multiple years of stomaching ZvZ from the Ro8 onwards with the same musical chairs of at least the four zerg horsemen over and over. With Trap and Zest gone there's now three Protoss in Zoun, Classic, and herO have to pick up the slack as the replacement Protoss representatives in placing for this upcoming season/year (anyone know if Stats plans to come back to play after returning from military service?). Depending on their performance, it may skew numbers worse for Protoss placing in tourneys if they don't get to a strong enough form. Not even going to bother with Terran, outside of Maru you'd be lucky if guys like Cure, Dream, Ryung, Clem, Special, Heromarine, and others can actually take more single a map let alone a series against the top zergs past the Ro16 of a tournament. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On March 02 2022 09:07 yoshi245 wrote: Not even going to bother with Terran, outside of Maru you'd be lucky if guys like Cure, Dream, Ryung, Clem, Special, Heromarine, and others can actually take more single a map let alone a series against the top zergs past the Ro16 of a tournament. This is so out of touch with reality if you actually believe this | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 02 2022 09:07 yoshi245 wrote: That's surprising, I never looked at the stats myself but it clearly shows that Zerg at the top end dominates overall. If no balance patches will happen in the foreseeable future then the only recourse are maps. There needs to be more maps that at the very least give more advantages for Terrans and Protoss against Zerg. It's getting to the point where we've had multiple years of stomaching ZvZ from the Ro8 onwards with the same musical chairs of at least the four zerg horsemen over and over. With Trap and Zest gone there's now three Protoss in Zoun, Classic, and herO have to pick up the slack as the replacement Protoss representatives in placing for this upcoming season/year (anyone know if Stats plans to come back to play after returning from military service?). Depending on their performance, it may skew numbers worse for Protoss placing in tourneys if they don't get to a strong enough form. Not even going to bother with Terran, outside of Maru you'd be lucky if guys like Cure, Dream, Ryung, Clem, Special, Heromarine, and others can actually take more single a map let alone a series against the top zergs past the Ro16 of a tournament. Are we ignoring Su(P)er Tournsment or Code S, or Clem smacking Serral and Reynor more than a few times? Zerg is, IMO demonstrably the strongest race currently, especially in the format of the Worlds, but let’s deal with actual reality and not crazy hyperbole | ||
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yoshi245
United States2972 Posts
On March 02 2022 09:54 WombaT wrote: Are we ignoring Su(P)er Tournsment or Code S, or Clem smacking Serral and Reynor more than a few times? Zerg is, IMO demonstrably the strongest race currently, especially in the format of the Worlds, but let’s deal with actual reality and not crazy hyperbole Super Tournament is an outlier and rule exception moreso than anything - it's historically found a way to have Protoss win a majority of the time (Trap with 3 straight ST wins in a row). But do you honestly think the likes of Dark or Rogue actually give their full investment and time to that compared to Code S especially considering how Super Tournament takes less time than a Code S in general? How often has Clem beaten Serral or Reynor straight up outside of EU season finals? If anything Clem's a bit on a downslope in results against them overall as he's spent more time shoring his TvT and TvP. Code S still isn't a good example since you can see that the winners were Cure, Dark, and Rogue in 2021. Why do you think Heromarine, Zest, and even Cure participate and win so many weekly cups in 2021? Because the likelihood of them not facing the big 4 in zergs is extremely low. Even if the payout is small(er), at least they can rack up easy EPT points over time. Serral, Reynor, Dark, and Rogue hardly care about that if at all because it's not worth the time invested knowing the four of them will place top 8 or better in just about any other tournament if not straight up win it. Even other zergs recently have shown them capable of making a name for themselves like Lambo, Scarlet, Ragnarok and Solar with unexpected good runs in Ro8 of premiere and major tourneys. It may all sound like hyperbole to you, but look at the results overall even in Korea where things can sort of seem partly balanced from a quick glance it really isn't. Zerg will win if Maru can't get to good form or if Trap and Zest can get to their peak form - which doesn't matter now since those two are both in military, Stats and TY are gone, do you think Maru in his current form will be able to win let alone place Top 4 in the next Code S? Maru's run late last year was magical, but he's been figured out. His mech style isn't as unstoppable as it seems and his form is not as dominating as it was say 5-8 months ago as evidenced by losing to Serral and Reynor in Katowice days ago. EU is even worse due to the fact it's a foregone conclusion Serral and Reynor will place in every major tournament in the top 4 or win it straight up because that's how dominant they are. The race and map pool are good enough for Zerg where even other EU Zergs such as Lambo and Elazer can show up and place well enough to get into the top 6. Name me a Terran other than Big Gabe or Clem can place top 4 in those same tournaments or Protoss other than MaxPax and Showtime let alone winning it (something only Clem himself has been able to pull off out of all the non-zergs) in 2021. 2020 wasn't much better (actually it's worse) considering all but two of the categorized Global Events had Zerg winners except for King of Batles and DH Last Chance with Trap winning it. Lastly, is was mentioned earlier on in this thread, but in regards to Terran overall. If Maru wasn't accounted for, then the actual results will be considerably more depressing. I'm reiterating that Trap and Zest are gone because they too are important for the statistic for 2021's results. | ||
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TossHeroes
281 Posts
On March 02 2022 09:07 yoshi245 wrote: That's surprising, I never looked at the stats myself but it clearly shows that Zerg at the top end dominates overall. If no balance patches will happen in the foreseeable future then the only recourse are maps. There needs to be more maps that at the very least give more advantages for Terrans and Protoss against Zerg. It's getting to the point where we've had multiple years of stomaching ZvZ from the Ro8 onwards with the same musical chairs of at least the four zerg horsemen over and over. With Trap and Zest gone there's now three Protoss in Zoun, Classic, and herO have to pick up the slack as the replacement Protoss representatives in placing for this upcoming season/year (anyone know if Stats plans to come back to play after returning from military service?). Depending on their performance, it may skew numbers worse for Protoss placing in tourneys if they don't get to a strong enough form. Not even going to bother with Terran, outside of Maru you'd be lucky if guys like Cure, Dream, Ryung, Clem, Special, Heromarine, and others can actually take more single a map let alone a series against the top zergs past the Ro16 of a tournament. Lol? Terrans fan boys are now at a point where they want Zergs be nerfed so the Big 4 Zergs should be losing to tier B Terrans? Patch terran cure already won a GSL, that’s not enough? | ||
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