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So I looked at the Premier tournaments page here: liquipedia.net. I noticed that on this Premier tournaments page from 2021 to 2022 (2022 so far), Terran has had the worst result in Premier tournaments for 1st and 2nd place finishes. 2021 to 2022 is a pretty good window as it looks at the time frame over the last year of performance, more or less.
The Premier tournaments page only lists first place and second place. But based on the results listed, Terran had the worst performance from 2021 to 2022 (2022 so far). I tabulated the total number of 1st & 2nd place results for Terran, Protoss, and Zerg:
Terran: 10 total 1st & 2nd place finishes
Protoss: 14 total 1st & 2nd place finishes
Zerg: 23 total 1st & 2nd place finishes
Notice that the Premier tournaments page has not been updated to include IEM Katowice in 2022. I believe the page should be updated to include the IEM Katowice results from 2022 soon. My tabulation includes the results for IEM Katowice 2022.
By far, Zerg performed the best in 1st and 2nd place finishes. Protoss performed the second best in 1st and 2nd place finishes (oddly, the community seems to think Protoss is struggling the most when this Premier tournament results page say otherwise). And Terran performed the worst.
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I know threads like these look infuriating but you have to remember, xelnaga doesn't believe what he says himself. He knows that protoss is doing worse than terran. Nobody truly believes that protoss will do better than terran in the next ten or twenty tournaments assuming no patch. This isn't a case where reality needs to be explained to him, this is just a case where reality is already known, and is being ignored.
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On February 28 2022 07:19 Nebuchad wrote:
I know threads like these look infuriating but you have to remember, xelnaga doesn't believe what he says himself. He knows that protoss is doing worse than terran. Nobody truly believes that protoss will do better than terran in the next ten or twenty tournaments assuming no patch. This isn't a case where reality needs to be explained to him, this is just a case where reality is already known, and is being ignored.
I don't understand your logic when Zest won the last GSL Super Tournament. Obviously, Protoss is capable of winning at the top level in Korea, with Zest's recent win at the GSL Super Tournament, which was only a month ago.
As for reality? The reality is in the results/stats. Are you going to blame the Premier tournaments page as being biased? And this is over the 2021 to 2022 period which is a fair time frame.
I don't understand this type of thinking. The results/stats show that Terran performed the worst in Premier level tournaments from 2021 to 2022 for 1st and 2nd place finishes. Please go to the Premier tournaments page and double check for yourself (if I made a tabulation error for the 1st and 2nd place finishes, I will gladly update the tabulation I did).
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Terran is actually the worst if you got rid of just Maru it would be extremely obvious that Terran is the weakest race at the pro level. Best Terran player is underdog against top 4 zergs.
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On February 28 2022 07:31 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Terran is actually the worst if you got rid of just Maru it would be extremely obvious that Terran is the weakest race at the pro level. Best Terran player is underdog against top 4 zergs.
This is actually correct. Unfortunately, Clem has not proven he can win at a Premier international tournament. While Clem is able to win the EU Dreamhacks (ie. EU Premier tournament only), when it comes to an international Premier tournament including the Koreans, Clem has not proven he can win those yet. So for now, it's just Maru who more or less wins in the Premier tournaments. Cure won the one GSL last year, but aside from winning that GSL, Cure has not won another Premier level tournament.
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Just do the stats without Maru and it will be very obvious.
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what you all are trying to say, but find it hard to formulate is that Zerg is dominating and ass whooping so hard and ruthless that is really tough to say who gets the bigger beatings, the protoss or the terran xD
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Canada8989 Posts
Protoss and Zerg have 3 point from NA that don't really count though so it's more like 10-11-20 about even between terran and protoss and twice for the Zerg
It's really just a matter of a single player for Terran and Protoss though.
Without Maru terran have 5 and without Trap Protoss have 4. (Comparatively Zerg still have 13 without Serral, more than the other races)
Funilly despite getting almost twice as many final spot as the two other race combined, it was actually a down year for zerg as the last three year total is 26(t)-24(p)-55(z). Winning in the last three year is even more zerg favored as it's 12(t)-9(p)-31(z).
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I think if Maru were older Terran would be in the same position as Protoss if not even worse since he'd be in the military now. The problem is clearly Zerg.
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Yeah it's disingenuous to remove maru but not remove trap lol
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On February 28 2022 07:38 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Just do the stats without Maru and it will be very obvious.
I think we should do it without Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark. Then it should clearly show how zerg is weak right now.
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On February 28 2022 08:26 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:38 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Just do the stats without Maru and it will be very obvious. I think we should do it without Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark. Then it should clearly show how zerg is weak right now.
Well that's exactly the point there's four Zergs where no player of another race is even odds or better against them. Yep, that's literally exactly the point.
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On February 28 2022 08:26 11cc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 07:38 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Just do the stats without Maru and it will be very obvious. I think we should do it without Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark. Then it should clearly show how zerg is weak right now.
They know what they're doing. They're just trying to trick you into a conversation.
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I mean there's a lot to say about this but the laughable thing about is it that you are cherry picking statistics to get the result you want. Who lumps together first and second places when making balance complaints lol?
For example, if we do a far more traditional analysis of first places, and ignoring NA, we will get;
Terran: Seven
Protoss: Six
Zerg: Ten
Which both is (1) much less lopsided than what you have and (2) puts terran in the middle.
+ Show Spoiler +(i'm adding in KBOBII and Asus because they are 100% premier level tournaments)
And the reason there's more S-class tier zerg players than Zerg/Terran is because of how korean military service/retirement worked out. Of the big pros in the last few years we lost Stats, TY, Innovation, soO. We also lost classic, hero, Byun, Parting, who all tried to make comebacks but we know how that goes and we've never seen a post-military person re-reach their prior level (yet - I'm still hopeful for Classic/herO). Of these 8 individuals only one was Zerg, and him, soO, was inconsistent at best.
So if are you asking "oh hurr hurr are the zerg players just better?" - the answer is . . . yes. No, I don't think the four top zergs are, overall, meaningfully better than the other S class players like Maru/Trap/Zest, but there's just more of these Zerg S-class players and this necessarily means zerg will win more.
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Tournament wins/finals appearances isn't the best way to judge balance, it's just one metric. Starcraft 2 is so thin at the top level that any retirement is going to greatly change statistics. Between last EPT season and this one half of the Terrans capable of winning international premier tournaments (maybe a third if we're being generous to Clem) left, that's going to throw things off.
I think Zerg is the strongest race, but it's also been least effected by high profile retirements. The only championship caliber Zerg to retire since 2017 was soO, whereas Protoss have lost Stats, Classic, and herO (the latter two are back but shadows of their former selves for now) and Terran have lost Inno, TY, and Byun (the latter two are back now.) The sample size at the very top is simply too small to make sweeping conclusions about balance.
If you go a level down and look at the "good but not consistent champion-contenders" players a clear picture emerges. Protoss consistently struggle to be evenly represented at even the top 8/top 16 level. Terran does not in the same way. The culprit is PvZ, which has been really hard for Protoss ever since mid 2019. TvP and ZvT may not be entirely balanced, but I don't think they're unacceptably lopsided either (imo TvP is slightly terran favored and ZvT is slightly zerg favored)
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On February 28 2022 09:02 Pandain wrote:
I mean there's a lot to say about this but the laughable thing about is it that you are cherry picking statistics to get the result you want. Who lumps together first and second places when making balance complaints lol?
(i'm adding in KBOBII and Asus because they are 100% premier level tournaments)
Because only 1st and 2nd place was listed on the Premier Tournaments page.
It's not cherry picking at all, it's what's available on that page. But you are kind of cherry picking though if you only look at 1st place results from that page. You are further cherry picking if you want to add KBOBII and Asus only from the Major tournaments - you either add all the Major tournaments, or don't add any Major tournaments at all. You can't cherry pick the Major tournaments you want to add, and then exclude all the other Major tournaments.
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On February 28 2022 08:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 08:26 11cc wrote:On February 28 2022 07:38 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Just do the stats without Maru and it will be very obvious. I think we should do it without Serral, Rogue, Reynor and Dark. Then it should clearly show how zerg is weak right now. They know what they're doing. They're just trying to trick you into a conversation.
Having a conversation? God forbid!
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On February 28 2022 09:04 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2022 09:02 Pandain wrote:
I mean there's a lot to say about this but the laughable thing about is it that you are cherry picking statistics to get the result you want. Who lumps together first and second places when making balance complaints lol?
Because only 1st and 2nd place was listed on the Premier Tournaments page. It's not cherry picking at all, it's what's available on that page. But you are kind of cherry picking though if you only look at 1st place results.
Cherry-picking isn't related to picking what's available, it's about picking increasingly arbitrary statistics. I've never seen anyone else on this forum ever lump together first and second places, and by far the dominant metric this forum uses in balance discussions is first-place results.
Your absolutely right if you're saying its not meaningless, but you should also recognize other (and importantly, more intuitive) ways to view the same statistics that go against your thesis.
And to the extent we start getting into second place results or semifinal results, then the problem me and dysenterymd just laid out about how there's just more good zerg players due to korean retirements magnifies in effect because right now about half the S-class players are zerg so we should be expecting probably Ro8 and onwards that about half the bracket will be zerg. It's unfortunate, but if you want to nerf Zerg to the point that Cure/Zoun start winning championships regularly then I'm sorry but that would be the real problem because they simply are not as good, overall, as Rogue/Serral/Dark/in-form Reynor.
By the way, this completely is irrelevant to whether matchups like PvZ are garbage (it is) or whether I would love balance patches to come far more frequently to keep things interesting (yes).
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And the reason there's more S-class tier zerg players than Zerg/Terran is because of how korean military service/retirement worked out. Of the big pros in the last few years we lost Stats, TY, Innovation, soO. We also lost classic, hero, Byun, Parting, who all tried to make comebacks but we know how that goes and we've never seen a post-military person re-reach their prior level (yet - I'm still hopeful for Classic/herO). Of these 8 individuals only one was Zerg, and him, soO, was inconsistent at best.
This is incredibly disingenuous given that
1. Zerg has dominated for the past three years, not just 2021.
2. Ty and Innovation weren't doing well before they left for military service.
3. There's no magical debuff upon returning from the military. Byun, Hero and Classic have been out for more than enough time to get back in shape.
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EPT
