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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
The hyperbole comes from listing Clem as a player in a list of players who’d be lucky to take a set off the Zerg big 4 when he’s literally beaten them to win tournaments in the past 12 months.
Super Tournament is still a tournament, Trap won 5 tournaments in 2021. Not just Maru but Cure took home a Code S too, we had Protoss finalists there. I mean it’s only one tournament but we had a non-Maru Terran Code S champion going into Katowice.
I don’t think who does/doesn’t compete in EPT cups is that illustrative of much, or is necessarily an attempt to earn money because one sees opportunities are limited. I think a player like Zest, or Heromarine sees value in grinding a huge amount of cups, other players such as Serral do not and want to tweak their practice for the big tournaments. Some pros were in the middle like a Trap or Reynor who played a fair few and weren't totally absent but not a huge amount.
Even in the pre-EPT era Cure played shitloads of online cups, Byun played an insane amount leading up to his GSL/Blizzcon. Some players seem to prefer grinding out a lot of games in a single elim, tournsment style environment. Others prefer to do so either with internal, hidden practice games, or other methods. Reynor famously prepped for last year’s Katowice playing 1varchon against the likes of Lambo, with almost a team of friendly pros preparing him as a team for that tournament.
I don’t think most of your points are even wrong, especially what the scene looks like without players like Trap, they’re just a tad hyperbolic. I agree with most of it, but everything is amped up a degree.
Do Rogue and Dark, sitting atop their pile of money care quite as much about Super Tournament as GSL or Katowice? Probably not but if Zerg was as dominant as people are claiming, they’d just show up and take home some more medals.
I will disagree with Even other zergs recently have shown them capable of making a name for themselves like Lambo, Scarlet, Ragnarok and Solar with unexpected good runs in Ro8 of premiere and major tourneys.
That bracket of Zergs has done nothing beyond what comparable players of other races have done.
Solar didn’t do a huge amount all year, hell Solar hasn’t made playoffs in GSL in forever, but topped his Katowice group to make Ro8 there. Bunny made a Ro4 in GSL and in a Dreamhack season finals, and topped his Katowice group to make Ro8. Byun’s done Byun things at times. Lambo’s had a finals run in WCS EU, Heromarine’s been almost a lock for top 4 and made Katowice’s Ro4. Ragnarok is the epitome of a player who almost always looks good but lacks that big standout result. Elazer’s not really done that much since his final appearance at GSL vs the World, which iirc was pre-pandemic. Scarlett hasn’t done anything of note, despite her reputation since cheesing Rogue out of Code S quite some time ago now.
I’ll add that, in my (semi) recent memory Armani and DRG have made GSL Ro4’s via decent bracket luck in the past couple years.
I’ve maybe missed one or two tournaments, perhaps Rag had a deep run somewhere but from memory those are the high points of the Zergs who aren’t the big 4, and they’re not exactly that crazy impressive or reflective of wider Zerg dominance.
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Zerg were definitely not dominating in 2021 before the map pool changed; no retirements and patches involved, just maps: the set we have now is evidently too good for Zerg!
A new patch would be greatly appreciated and I think Protoss really need balance changes whereas Terran would just benefit from a better map pool.
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Recent tournaments had the likes of Ragnarok, Lambo and Scarlet show up and do surprisingly better than expected. Ragnarok beat Solar but lost to Trap having him place 4th in TSL 8 a couple months ago.
Scarlett beat Zest and lost to Rogue 2-3 at the Semis in DH Masters Winter also a few months ago too placing her 3rd/4th which was a really unexpected but welcome result for her.
Lambo is probably the most impressive despite being easily overlooked since he made 3rd in DH Masters Summer going 2-3 against Reynor in lower bracket final even just as impressive his result going 3-4 against Serral in NeXT 2021 finals. I was watching that and was hoping that it would be Lambo's first big win just to see someone other than Serral win another premiere tournament.
Thanks for reminding me about Bunny. I honestly keep underestimating him but he deserves to be at least one of the 4 best Terrans in the world overall as it stands currently.
I do want to think that Zoun might finally break through and win a major or premiere tourney something either domestically in Korea (super tournament is his best chance) or if we're lucky a big name global event. He's going to be regarded as one of the three best Protoss in Korea now so we'll see how that turns out.
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I don't mean to put down the Zergs who aren't dominating the prize pools, but surely there will always be some of them that are worse than others or just haven't figured out how to abuse their advantages as well. Imagine if Maru, Cure and Clem were winning everything and I said it didn't matter because some b-tier player still isn't winning. There is no comparison between Zerg and the other races where there are so many players who can realistically win any tournament they are in. And yes, this map pool is Zerg biased, but this is a much longer term phenomenon than since the end of 2021. Also, the TLMC doesn't really take responsibility for balance, and the mapmakers don't want it.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 02 2022 11:23 yoshi245 wrote:
Recent tournaments had the likes of Ragnarok, Lambo and Scarlet show up and do surprisingly better than expected. Ragnarok beat Solar but lost to Trap having him place 4th in TSL 8 a couple months ago.
Scarlett beat Zest and lost to Rogue 2-3 at the Semis in DH Masters Winter also a few months ago too placing her 3rd/4th which was a really unexpected but welcome result for her.
Lambo is probably the most impressive despite being easily overlooked since he made 3rd in DH Masters Summer going 2-3 against Reynor in lower bracket final even just as impressive his result going 3-4 against Serral in NeXT 2021 finals. I was watching that and was hoping that it would be Lambo's first big win just to see someone other than Serral win another premiere tournament.
Thanks for reminding me about Bunny. I honestly keep underestimating him but he deserves to be at least one of the 4 best Terrans in the world overall as it stands currently.
I do want to think that Zoun might finally break through and win a major or premiere tourney something either domestically in Korea (super tournament is his best chance) or if we're lucky a big name global event. He's going to be regarded as one of the three best Protoss in Korea now so we'll see how that turns out.
I was going off memory, ok I missed those from Lambo and Scarlett, didn’t mean to be so harsh on her having ‘no results’ when I’m wrong.
I think ultimately though, there’s a paucity of S class players anyway, it skews results rather a lot.
In purely hypothetical land look at Trap’s last few years. Now imagine the Zerg big 4 aren’t there. He’s even won series and even tournaments against the big 4
Trap on form vs the big four on form, or Zest is probably your best metric of looking at balance at the highest possible level available, and I favour any of the big 4.
Which I think indicates at the very top level, balance is an issue. I think at THAT level Zerg have the edge in ZvT, and it’s even bigger in ZvP.
I’d favour Trap vs any of the other Zergs, probably more than I’d favour the big 4 vs Trap in tournament play, he could have had a hell of a few years given he’s good in the other matchups!
As I’ve conceded, I still do think there’s some balance and meta issues too, but the ‘take out the big 4’ isn’t that crazy a hypothetical, it’s not that far off where Protoss is now. Stats is still gone, Classic isn’t back to full form, herO neither, and now Zest and soon Trap will also depart.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 02 2022 11:26 honorablemacroterran wrote:
I don't mean to put down the Zergs who aren't dominating the prize pools, but surely there will always be some of them that are worse than others or just haven't figured out how to abuse their advantages as well. Imagine if Maru, Cure and Clem were winning everything and I said it didn't matter because some b-tier player still isn't winning. There is no comparison between Zerg and the other races where there are so many players who can realistically win any tournament they are in. And yes, this map pool is Zerg biased, but this is a much longer term phenomenon than since the end of 2021. Also, the TLMC doesn't really take responsibility for balance, and the mapmakers don't want it.
There are 4 players, that’s basically it. And by basically I mean, it is it.
I believe there are 4 Terran champions going back a wee bit to TY’s GSLs and Byun’s ASUS Rog and now Maru and Cure’s GSLs.
Not counting Clem’s EU crowns even, although given he had to get through 3x World Champion pedigree I think it probably does.
We’ve had more variety in Terran champions the last few years than Zergs, albeit with less regularity given TY is gone now and I think Byun was in better shape at that stage of his military comeback than now.
Maybe the big 4, balance not being 100% aside are just that good? No other Zergs are winning anything.
Maru had the most solid, at times consistently dominant time across all tournaments including internationals I think I’ve seen him have, and he just didn’t deliver his A game and Serral skewered him at Katowice.
I think we are due a patch too though. I recall a period where Cure showed off a super heavy mine drop style against Serral, to great success, to take one example. Something new to be figured out, and the defences to be figured out.
Feels in general the amount of things to mine from the ‘not yet figured out’ column is getting smaller and smaller, and the Zerg execution of defending the known tools is getting better and better
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Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice.
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On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice.
No, it isn't. You people still completly ignore skill and think, there is a hard-coded rule that every race should win the same amount, but there isn't. Zerg literally survives through four outstanding players, that are dominant for years by now. If Zerg was overpowered, why isn't Lambo just playing GSL, smashing everyone easily and then goes out in a ZvZ?
Saying "Zerg is so OP because there are four players winning a lot, even though the rest is kinda meh" is the same as "Italy and Finland are the two strongest nations in Starcraft 2 because they won the last two IEMs".
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I think it is important to look at the meta when you discuss balance and tournament results.
I remember back in 2017 TvP consisted of mostly 2 base all ins from the terran. These days terrans are capable of playing good macro strategies vs protoss. However it seems that protoss players are not really in the same boat. When I watch pro level TvP I feel like the protoss is just surviving until disruptors and then hopefully manages to land a few decent shots. This is frustrating for both players. Most TvP matches come down to blink pressure, dts just winning the game or some proxy voidray all in.
PvZ is the most boring matchup that we have ever seen. Turtle on static defense and voidray, getting queen walked and playing 2 hours of staring competitions is not the ideal matchup for me. Every now and then we see a protoss go ground vs zerg, but then the zerg transitions to lurker and the protoss transitions to skytoss and we are back at the staring competition. I think not a single person can argue that PvZ is currently a perfectly fine matchup.
TvZ has been the most entertaining matchup for most people. I think it is because the matchup is nicely balanced and the outcome of the game is not decided within the first 7 minutes of a game. I think of TvP where a widow mine drop, or a hellion drop, or a 3 rax simply could end the game. TvZ seems like a forgiving matchup in the sense that comeback is possible for both players and a small lead only increases your chance of winning rather than assuring victory. TvZ doesn't seem frustrating to play (even with widow mines and lurkers).
Some people would argue that this is purely game design and not linked to balance whatsoever. I disagree. If PvZ was well balanced then the protoss would be able to rely on more than one strategy. Players choose the best strategies that they believe should work. If there is only one available strategy due to the game design, could you really call it balanced?
It is important to note the close relationship between balance and game design. Good game design allows for good balance which should eventually lead to good tournament results.
So coming back to the tournaments I think the results should not only consider the 1st and 2nd places. IEM Katowice 2022 was not the first tournament with few to none protoss in the playoffs. Also considering the gsl results I would like to ask whether Trap and Zest would have won anything if Serral, Reynor, Heromarine and Clem were participating. NA tournaments have the same situation. If we took all tournaments into account then clearly protoss is the most dominant race. In my opinion the only tournaments that can be taken into account are the ones that everyone gets to play. From those the most important ones are the global final events. Everyone practiced their hardest for the ultimate Katowice tournament just to see no protoss in the ro8. Not a single one. If we only take 1st place into account then 2016 was the last time a non-zerg managed to win the global finals.
Tournaments rely on the bracket as well. Lets say Maru beats Serral in the semi finals and loses to Zest in the grand finals. Then Zest clearly displays that protoss is capable of winning tournaments. But what if Zest had to play Serral in the semi finals? Would he have lost and then eventually Serral wins the tournament? Or perhaps Maru wins the tournament. All this due to the luck of having a good bracket. Ultimately brackets don't really determine the winner of a tournament that much, but surely it has a great effect on the ro8 players or the ro4 players.
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On March 02 2022 21:26 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice. No, it isn't. You people still completly ignore skill and think, there is a hard-coded rule that every race should win the same amount, but there isn't. Zerg literally survives through four outstanding players, that are dominant for years by now. If Zerg was overpowered, why isn't Lambo just playing GSL, smashing everyone easily and then goes out in a ZvZ? Saying "Zerg is so OP because there are four players winning a lot, even though the rest is kinda meh" is the same as "Italy and Finland are the two strongest nations in Starcraft 2 because they won the last two IEMs".
It's literally not the same four players. You can look at the winnings history on liquipedia, dummy.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice.
I was looking at how the Terrans who aren’t Maru are doing compared to the Zergs who aren’t in that big 4, in response to a post.
I would expect average earnings to look like that, especially with the overlap to when soO had his last big runs.
As I’ve said, many times Zerg does also seem too strong, or not enjoyable especially in PvZ at the very highest level.
But equally the Zerg big 4 are also all great players at a time where other races don’t have similar depth. The Zergs under their level aren’t exactly cleaning up, their results are extremely comparable to the non-Maru Terrans, or a Zoun.
It’s not like the WoL BL/Infestor era where average Zergs were regularly taking down top players, and some players had results they’d never managed before or since.
Whatever fine tuning is needed, and I think it is, especially in ZvP should still see the Zerg big 4 in with a shot of winning every tournament.
If they aren’t and Zerg is hard nerfed we don’t see many Zergs making finals, that’s going to be a more broken game than what we have now.
A fair game should be as balanced as possible, but you have to take account of the skill of the players as well. Outliers will exist and unfortunately for variety in the last few years you’ve got 4 of the Zerg’s best ever players, all in good shape and motivated.
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On March 02 2022 23:04 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice. I was looking at how the Terrans who aren’t Maru are doing compared to the Zergs who aren’t in that big 4, in response to a post. I would expect average earnings to look like that, especially with the overlap to when soO had his last big runs. As I’ve said, many times Zerg does also seem too strong, or not enjoyable especially in PvZ at the very highest level. But equally the Zerg big 4 are also all great players at a time where other races don’t have similar depth. The Zergs under their level aren’t exactly cleaning up, their results are extremely comparable to the non-Maru Terrans, or a Zoun. It’s not like the WoL BL/Infestor era where average Zergs were regularly taking down top players, and some players had results they’d never managed before or since. Whatever fine tuning is needed, and I think it is, especially in ZvP should still see the Zerg big 4 in with a shot of winning every tournament. If they aren’t and Zerg is hard nerfed we don’t see many Zergs making finals, that’s going to be a more broken game than what we have now. A fair game should be as balanced as possible, but you have to take account of the skill of the players as well. Outliers will exist and unfortunately for variety in the last few years you’ve got 4 of the Zerg’s best ever players, all in good shape and motivated.
Again, it's not even the same four players in that earnings data.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 02 2022 23:09 honorablemacroterran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2022 23:04 WombaT wrote:On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice. I was looking at how the Terrans who aren’t Maru are doing compared to the Zergs who aren’t in that big 4, in response to a post. I would expect average earnings to look like that, especially with the overlap to when soO had his last big runs. As I’ve said, many times Zerg does also seem too strong, or not enjoyable especially in PvZ at the very highest level. But equally the Zerg big 4 are also all great players at a time where other races don’t have similar depth. The Zergs under their level aren’t exactly cleaning up, their results are extremely comparable to the non-Maru Terrans, or a Zoun. It’s not like the WoL BL/Infestor era where average Zergs were regularly taking down top players, and some players had results they’d never managed before or since. Whatever fine tuning is needed, and I think it is, especially in ZvP should still see the Zerg big 4 in with a shot of winning every tournament. If they aren’t and Zerg is hard nerfed we don’t see many Zergs making finals, that’s going to be a more broken game than what we have now. A fair game should be as balanced as possible, but you have to take account of the skill of the players as well. Outliers will exist and unfortunately for variety in the last few years you’ve got 4 of the Zerg’s best ever players, all in good shape and motivated. Again, it's not even the same four players in that earnings data.
‘especially with the overlap to when soO had his last big runs.’
So we take out one of the Zerg GOATs that I already mentioned? Or is there someone else in there?
That said using your own data the game appears to be on a trend towards relative parity from a nadir of 2018/19, which doesn’t quite past my eye test.
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Following this same logic, BW was horribly unbalanced in the time of Boxer. I mean, it was basically Boxer, iloveoov and nada dominating everything. yellow and reach didn't do badly but not even close to Maru and Trap's performance now.
But in hindsight we know that BW is extremely well balanced and that the early 2000s it was just that the Terran race had some bonjwas, but the other races didn't. Yet no balance patches were released, and July, savior and Jaedong went on to greatness as did bisu and stork.
I think the main thing here is maps. We can't really wait for someone to come along and figure out a new way to play Terran or Protoss. The game is probably about as "figured out" as it is going to be. But we can definitely use more and more balanced (or just more diverse) maps to try to break things open.
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On Maru: he was performing well even when the rest of the Terrans were struggling. That's why he's considered such a miracle.
Is there another player with the same performance when their race had poor representation at the highest levels (RO8 GSL, for instance)?
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On March 03 2022 04:51 Acrofales wrote:
Following this same logic, BW was horribly unbalanced in the time of Boxer. I mean, it was basically Boxer, iloveoov and nada dominating everything. yellow and reach didn't do badly but not even close to Maru and Trap's performance now.
But in hindsight we know that BW is extremely well balanced and that the early 2000s it was just that the Terran race had some bonjwas, but the other races didn't. Yet no balance patches were released, and July, savior and Jaedong went on to greatness as did bisu and stork.
I think the main thing here is maps. We can't really wait for someone to come along and figure out a new way to play Terran or Protoss. The game is probably about as "figured out" as it is going to be. But we can definitely use more and more balanced (or just more diverse) maps to try to break things open.
BW is not extremely well balanced at all. I wouldn't use that as an argument.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On March 03 2022 04:51 Acrofales wrote:
Following this same logic, BW was horribly unbalanced in the time of Boxer. I mean, it was basically Boxer, iloveoov and nada dominating everything. yellow and reach didn't do badly but not even close to Maru and Trap's performance now.
But in hindsight we know that BW is extremely well balanced and that the early 2000s it was just that the Terran race had some bonjwas, but the other races didn't. Yet no balance patches were released, and July, savior and Jaedong went on to greatness as did bisu and stork.
I think the main thing here is maps. We can't really wait for someone to come along and figure out a new way to play Terran or Protoss. The game is probably about as "figured out" as it is going to be. But we can definitely use more and more balanced (or just more diverse) maps to try to break things open.
The issue it remains to be seen what will happen with the game moving forwards and support.
The community can’t fill in the gaps like in BW, we could end up with a scenario where the game is unpatched and maps remain very similar for quite some time.
And as you say I think the wider playerbase has grinded out a huge amount of what’s viable or not with this meta/map combo.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 03 2022 04:51 Acrofales wrote:
Following this same logic, BW was horribly unbalanced in the time of Boxer. I mean, it was basically Boxer, iloveoov and nada dominating everything. yellow and reach didn't do badly but not even close to Maru and Trap's performance now.
But in hindsight we know that BW is extremely well balanced and that the early 2000s it was just that the Terran race had some bonjwas, but the other races didn't. Yet no balance patches were released, and July, savior and Jaedong went on to greatness as did bisu and stork.
I think the main thing here is maps. We can't really wait for someone to come along and figure out a new way to play Terran or Protoss. The game is probably about as "figured out" as it is going to be. But we can definitely use more and more balanced (or just more diverse) maps to try to break things open.
I was under the impression that BW is not well balanced and is being balanced by the maps. Which, so far, never happened in the SC2.
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On March 02 2022 22:54 honorablemacroterran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2022 21:26 Balnazza wrote:On March 02 2022 13:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Comparing the records of Cure and Byun to any of the top zergs is copium. Look at the tournament winnings. Byun was champion literally 6 years ago. Cure has won ONE premier tournament in his career. I don't think you could be any more completely wrong. Let's take a look at the average earnings of the top 4 players of each race since 2018.
2021 2020 2019 2018
P $68,473.75 $70,459.50 $91,533.00 $136,504.25
T $65,443.50 $75,244.50 $111,540.25 $143,009.00
Z $81,724.50 $108,476.75 $225,199.50 $240,882.75
Although the prize pools have been shrinking especially since Covid, these are quite ridiculous differences. And no, it's not all the same players. This proves that Zerg is just expected to win more money, which is an injustice. No, it isn't. You people still completly ignore skill and think, there is a hard-coded rule that every race should win the same amount, but there isn't. Zerg literally survives through four outstanding players, that are dominant for years by now. If Zerg was overpowered, why isn't Lambo just playing GSL, smashing everyone easily and then goes out in a ZvZ? Saying "Zerg is so OP because there are four players winning a lot, even though the rest is kinda meh" is the same as "Italy and Finland are the two strongest nations in Starcraft 2 because they won the last two IEMs". It's literally not the same four players. You can look at the winnings history on liquipedia, dummy.
By the logic of this thread:
Do you know the last time a Zerg that wasn't Rogue, Dark, Serral or Reynor has won a Premier tournament (according to Liquipedia), not counting the regional DreamHack Masters? It was soO in 2020. Do you want to know the last one before soO? Freaking Elazer in 2017 (WCS Valencia). And before that...Snute in 2016, WCS Intercontinental.
If you go back to Elazers win (2017), you have terran wins from Innovation, Cure, ByuN and TY. For Protoss names like Trap, Classic, Stats, herO or even Patience and Neeb pop up. Notice something? Most of those winning terrans and protoss retired, while the Zergs stayed the same or rather actually got reinforced with Serral and Reynor.
So while a lot of high-ranking terran and protoss S-Tier players retired, Zerg was in the very lucky position that two more players just reached that level (or rather that age) at that time.
Sorry, but I really can't get behind your logic, that seems to be that if there are four S-Tier Zergs, there HAS to be four S-Tier Protoss and Terrans at all time. Like Bunny magically gets better at the game as soon as Innovation retires, because he needs to fill in the slot...
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I didn't read all the posts but most. I think what was ignored a little bit is, no matter which mappool. The longer the mappool stayed the same, the better for zerg because they could learn to deflect all kind of bo's. I remember Maru stating that the mappool (it was this one), while winning the tournament but after the next few tournaments results went worse. For serral it was the other way around after each years big change.
This is of course an hypothesis and it would be cool but also a little bit of effort to test it. How does the win ratio for each race evolve after map changes.
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EPT
