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On July 17 2007 20:14 naventus wrote:
My point is this: we should be fucking concerned about the aesthetics of the game - even if you think it's bearable, like I said, it might not change if WE don't put pressure on Blizzard.
I just think it's not gonna really matter that much in 2-10 years. Unless the graphics are distracting and unclear, they're are really only going to affect me for less a month. I don't love BW because of the 20-whatever pixels on the Dark Templar model.
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On July 17 2007 20:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:
A heavily defending turtle machine = bad.
And dude, you seriously can't see how a radar like this would completely remove any kind of hidden expansions/buildings or drops?
Which of these two things do you think are more likely to happen with the radar:
"Ohhh, look, a huge blob of dots is moving across the map approaching the side of my base - I'll just send all of my army to my main and rape the dozen overlords coming to drop!"
"Oh look, the enemy decided to randomly send a bunch of units to that island expansion all across the map, I guess they are just having a BBQ, I'll just leave them alone and ignore it"
You are:
1. looking at sc2 through the sc:bw glasses
2. badly overreacting ;(
Edit:
No one gives terran opportunity to see whole map. Hmm... Let's restate it. Do you think protoss observers ruins something? Look at SD as a stationary, buildable only at fixed locations on map (for example, at Luna-alike map terran wouldn't be able to build it anywhere further than his expand - bad landscape), visible observer, which has slightly bigger view range, but not actually removing fog of war.
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On July 17 2007 20:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:
It would remove
- Surprise attacks
- Hidden expansions
It might removed surprise attacks but the range probably won't be long enough to remove the possibility of hidden expansions/buildings.
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Well, screw that... the DT is so stupid... REALLY stupid looking.
Why aren't more people upset at the DT model? It's as bad as the Soul Hunter ~_~
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On July 17 2007 21:25 SuperJongMan wrote:
Well, screw that... the DT is so stupid... REALLY stupid looking.
Why aren't more people upset at the DT model? It's as bad as the Soul Hunter ~_~
the DT's weapon looks like some cheerleading prop >__>
is blizzard just blatantly taking shit from pop culture and adding it into their game?!
SILVER SURFER!
TRANSFORMERS!
CHEERLEADERS!
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Sweden33719 Posts
So tell me then, how you think you are going to catch a terran with a sensor dome by surprise, ever, if it works like the TA radar? Yes, SC2 is a different game but if there's no surprise drops, hidden techs, hidden expansions or sneak attacks then it's not even the same kind of game, which would be strange for a sequel.
If it works like a radar ping that briefly reveals the minimap dots for an energy cost for X seconds, then ok, maybe I could see it working.
Now for that gigantic Blacklizard post..  (always nice to read your posts btw)
On July 17 2007 19:59 Blacklizard wrote:
To FA:
When I first read the sensor dome deal, I actually thought the function of it would be in addition to regular scanners... and that it would basically be a really really far reaching tower combined with comstat such that cloaked units had no chance. So it sounded way better when Luhh wrote his bit. ((I just read your more recent post... I guess you were thinking the same thing. OK, i wasn't crazy, heh))
But I will admit, since Terran are so prevalent with the pros, I've been looking for things that may be just a tiny bit too good with Terrans- see my worker thread for the SCV argument. Now don't get me wrong... I was praising scanners in another thread b/c it seemed to alleviate the balance between guessing tech or not. But I'd like to see all races have good scouting options, not just Terran. I definitely do NOT want Terrans to have mana scanners and super anti-cloak, anti-fog of war towers at the same time.
Now, FA, you really have made me think hard on this which is a good thing. Do I consider comstat to be too good? I dunno... lemme try to make sense of this. I'll lay down some of the pros and cons of comstat scans at least IMO.
Pros:
1. Makes Terran unique. Other races use units for the scouting and detecting roles.
2. Gives Terrans the best anti-cloak options of any race vs other race matchup. Without it early game, a Terran, it can be argued, would have to overdefend vs dark temps and lurkers. (See #1 in Cons).
3. Gives the Terrans options on build order... can go marine/medic/tank vs Protoss instead of metal. In other words, have a chance vs DTs.
4. Allows for a few options with Tank Vs Tank wars.
5. They help even the score a tiny bit against maphackers.
6. Probably necessary against some observer + carrier situations so that ghosts and wraiths are effective.
7. The races in SC seem pretty darn balanced, so I can't say comstat it just obviously too good.
Without it terran really doesn't have a mobile detection unit until VERY late in the game, and they would have absolutely no answer vs arbiters or dark templars (unless you slow pushed which given todays maps and style of play is not exactly popular or, indeed, even possible).
Also, terrans are generally the ones holed up in TvP etc, so it gives them a way to find out what the enemy is doing even when they are being contained by protoss forces and are thus unable to scout the normal way.
Cons:
1. Gives Terrans the best anti-cloak options of any race vs other race matchup. Vs P and Z combined with the often needed spidermines vs P and the needed Vessels/turrets vs Zerg, it does eventually turn into the best anti-cloak combo for any race. Imbalanced? In the last 100 replays or VODs I've watched I think I've only seen greedy Terrans (it's amazing how frequent fast expand is now) die from Dark Temp rushes, and i don't think I've seen one terran lose to lurkers early in the game.
Playstyles come and go with the maps imo, when AnyTime won his starleague (and probably when he finished second a little under a year ago) I'm pretty sure they were way more popular as he used them a ton.
I think it is as it should that dark templars don't end the game if the terran plays normally but can severly punish him for being greedy, even if he plays normally I don't think failing to kill him with your dark templars has to put you behind unless you went for a do or die type of build.
Protoss can get caught off guard by lurkers (usually as a delaying situation, but they can win games) and dark temps (they win games) since observers aren't a convenient tech route early on in PvP or PvZ, but sometimes you badly need it (guessing). A lot of pro Protoss go observer fairly quick anyway in these matches just in case. And now it seems the default build for P v T is going quick observers to counter spidermines, which in combination with other factors, basically limits Protoss offense against Terran early on. We've all seen Zerg die from dark temps lately, but again, I think it's a slight greed problem and overconfidence.
Well, I started playing BW in 2002 but ever since that time goon/obs openings have been the standard PvT build with the other variations being used to varying degrees depending on what's popular I guess.
Reavers seem really popular lately tho (I haven't kept up that closely however). Also, I don't know if greed is the right way to put it, isn't it more like a calculated gamble really? IE, 70% of the time this build will put me in a good position, 30% of the time I will die/get crippled, will I win more games because of the slight advantage than I will lose because of how much worse off I'll be 30% of the time? Yes/No".
I dunno I don't think pros use builds out of greed.
Vs Zerg, the scans really help the Terran move freely throughout the map without much risk of losing a Vessel or marines mid and late game unless they just get too sloppy I think. I see too many pro games where Vessels don't die vs Zerg that have scourge out the wazoo, and the scanner is part of the reason.
Vessels don't die because of pros inhuman controls coupled with the disgustingly bad scourge AI, IMO :> And a 1, or even 2 base terran doesn't exactly have unlimited scans, I mean if you use it all up finding out where his army and expansions are, how will you fight the lurkers defending them? I dunno, it seems like you'd be stuck at your nat if you didn't have comsats TvZ (and TvP), until vessel tech that is.
2. Gives Terran the best chance at scouting tech against all matchups.
3. For 100 mineral, 100 gas, and a bit of time, Terran have 8 Observers that are invulnerable and can travel anywhere instantaneously (Ok, you may onlyhotkey one scanner, but close enough). That is really really powerful if you think of it like that.
4. Terrans don't have cannons or sunkens to take on cloaked units at home automatically. But, they do have the cheapest tower, and plenty of ranged units and a bunker option. I'm not so sure the scanner evens it out as much as it makes dark temps kinda a sucky gamble against Terran... unless they are just too greedy. Even the mana regens so quickly with two scanners that you'll never be hurting for a scan vs dark temps or lurkers.
5. Scans are almost freebie. The are the most easy, inexpensive, reactive (no planning needed), quickly deployed, and safest way to scout, check tech, check expos, check army size, check for army position, detect cloak, etc. If a Terran is about to engage you, he KNOWS EXACTLY what you have where he's about to attack. How many lurkers/scourge/sunkens/spores/casters(EMP,irrad), where they are and whether to engage or not.
Terrans can scan at perfect intervals so that the pros 80% of the time catch the enemy tech options without even losing a unit to find out. Let's not forget that Terran have the best anti-scouting early game due to marines and walloffs to further this divide.
6. Scans are undefendable. Like a fireball shot at you from the defensive characters in street fighter 2, you can't hit it or hurt the scan from the hard to crack Terran because they might be lying in wait with a dragon punch. In Street Fighter 3, parries were introduced due to the fireball situation. In SC, the scan gives the Terran tactical options that are much harder to come by with Zerg and Toss. There is no real "defense" against a scan other than building gateways and tech in the middle of nowhere, which is often risky.
2&6
Well, scans can be tricked by showing one tech in the likely to be scanned area and building something else at another place, I guess. Overlords are not far behind in tech-checking capabilities I'd say, I wouldn't mind if the protoss had something similiar I guess, just can't think of what.
3&5
I think the same argument can be used for the overlord, mostly. Although vs a wraith opening or sair/reaver they can't really stay out in the field, but normally they can cover the map more or less and you have to build them anyway.
4
I don't think the dark templar is built purely for the chance of catching terrans off-guard. I think forcing the terran to invest in detection, possibly delaying the command center, giving you room to expand, stopping fast 2fac rushes to some extent and giving you access to fast arbiters are solid enough reasons to get them.
7. Terrans can scan then walk safely anywhere. Or scan and drop with a perfectly prepared force... ok well the enemy will see the scan and possibly prepare better if he has time, but you know what i mean.
8. You know scans are really good when EVERY terran builds them practically every game (except cheese situations). I don't think you can say that about any other non-worker "unit" for P or Z except maybe the zergling. And the dragoon comes close. But they are fighter units... totally different situation.
Mm, toss builds cannons and observers every game (almost) for the same reasons. I dunno, it's a unique building that's very hard to compare to any of the toss or zerg buildings/units.
Zerg also has nice scouting, but the slow overlord speed (this was nerfed from fullspeed in the sc beta... it was just way too good at it's full speed from the start of the game) basically counters this being too good in sc1. Observers come fairly late, are slow, low hp, and cost gas so... they are quite good late game when you can afford to pepper the map with them and can sometimes win games... otherwise they are just sufficient.
If the new dome thingies are replacements for scanners, and if they'd work the same as scanners except not show what buildings/how much static defense was there so that Terran wouldn't know exactly what to face unless he sent an actual scout, spending a bit more time and resources, like the rest of the races, then I can see the argument for a rebalance.
If comstat is too good, or if they want to rebalance it, I can see where limiting a scan to only units and not buildings could be more balanced especially IF the other races don't have good scouting. I say keep it, but give the other races equally good scouting options. Parasite with affordable/quicker queens, and a cheapter robotics facility or something maybe.
Summary? I dunno. I won't say scanners are just outright too good. But I also can't condemn a rethink of them without knowing the scouting options of other races.
Something like not needing an observatory for the observers as well as making them a little less prone to dying might be an idea.. But of course we'll have to wait and see until more of SC2 is revealed.
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The terran units look like warhammer 40k to me...
and what the fuck is with the burrowing supply depot....we already have a barracks for that purpose.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 17 2007 21:35 imBLIND wrote:
The terran units look like warhammer 40k to me...
and what the fuck is with the burrowing supply depot....we already have a barracks for that purpose.
Uhm, again, burrowing supply depots = good, they are taking something that wasn't intended in SC1 (ie making walins with supply depots and barrack) and making it a feature of SC2. This is good thinking IMO and I hope it's used for some of the important bugs that have become part of SC.
Also, blizzard borrows from games/movies all the time - deal with it.
Space marines (Wh40k):
http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=space marines&btnG=Search Images
Terran marines (SC, duh):
http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=terran marines&btnG=Search Images
Alien (the movie):
http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=alien&btnG=Search Images
Hydra (SC)
http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=starcraft hydra&btnG=Search Images
I think the protoss are pretty damn unique tho, even though their history is somewhat similiar to the eldar/elves in LOTR or the eldar in WH40k.
@InRaged
Edit:
No one gives terran opportunity to see whole map. Hmm... Let's restate it. Do you think protoss observers ruins something? Look at SD as a stationary, buildable only at fixed locations on map (for example, at Luna-alike map terran wouldn't be able to build it anywhere further than his expand - bad landscape), visible observer, which has slightly bigger view range, but not actually removing fog of war.
The difference here is that by the sounds of things, these turrets have some pretty serious range (or they'd be pretty fucking useless unless they decided turrets can no longer detect cloaked units) as they CANNOT MOVE.
If all they are, are glorified observers with slightly above average detection radius then they are.. useless? If they are anything else, then they are just gonna be too damn good as you can't get surprise dropped anymore.
I don't see how you can make it a building worth getting without making drops nearly useless. And besides, the scanner sweep is about 10 times more original.
As I said sometime before, if it's a turret capable of sending out like a sonar (for mana obv) over a pretty large distance I could see it being cool I guess (although it would be pretty lame if DTs had no way of escaping outside of detection range when you activate it in your base), but the whole 'constantly on' thing is bad.
Mm I guess if it constantly drew mana while activated ..? I dunno, I guess it could be made to work but I want more details and I'd hate it if it worked like the radar in TA.
EDIT:
Wow, I never really looked all that closely at the protoss screens since I'd seen the units before..
Why does the HT look like a lich (head so tiny - -)?? Why does the dark templar look like a cyborg ninja!?!?!? I demand answers.
Archon is still a badass.
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Braavos36390 Posts
i bet that sensor dome researches the Reverse Scanner
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Do you believe that the enemy will be able to see the burrowed depots?
If they won't then it would be nice for trapping for scouting units, but probably they will.
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On July 17 2007 21:54 Titanidis wrote:
Do you believe that the enemy will be able to see the burrowed depots?
If they won't then it would be nice for trapping for scouting units, but probably they will.
That would be ridiculous if you can't even see it without a detector...
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On July 17 2007 21:33 FrozenArbiter wrote:
So tell me then, how you think you are going to catch a terran with a sensor dome by surprise, ever, if it works like the TA radar? Yes, SC2 is a different game but if there's no surprise drops, hidden techs, hidden expansions or sneak attacks then it's not even the same kind of game, which would be strange for a sequel.
You are extremely overreacting. This building is only for terran it just can't change whole game. Even would it be a half like you are trying to make it look, it adds more diversity in the game - when versus protoss and zerg you should play like you used to, versus terran you should change your style to chess-like. Winning not with surprise, but making superior decisions. You can fake attacks. You can playing with the fact that he knows your movement. A lot of tactical freedom.
And again, you are exaggerating. Even 3rd tier radar towers in TA couldn't "reveal" 1/5 of a decent map. And they were pretty far in tech tree and very resource-intensive.
On July 17 2007 21:41 FrozenArbiter wrote:
The difference here is that by the sounds of things, these turrets have some pretty serious range (or they'd be pretty fucking useless unless they decided turrets can no longer detect cloaked units) as they CANNOT MOVE.
If all they are, are glorified observers with slightly above average detection radius then they are.. useless? If they are anything else, then they are just gonna be too damn good as you can't get surprise dropped anymore.
I don't see how you can make it a building worth getting without making drops nearly useless. And besides, the scanner sweep is about 10 times more original.
I don't know how to argue with statements like "then they are.. useless". Even with relatively small distance it can't be useless as long as Blizz balances things.
And scanner sweep is not original at all. Who told you that? Idea of getting info of some region or location in exchange for some resource, time or energy is quite popular. For example before sc2 there was a game called WarWind (called warcraft2 clon by some) and there was unit who could use his mana to make "scan sweeps" exactly like sc ones.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Before WarWind there was a Paladin spell like that in Warcraft 2. My point was not that it's an original BW invention but that it's much more interesting than a radar tower.
And I don't want to 'change how I play vs terran' because they get a completely boring/uninteresting radar tower.
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i think those units of Terran are pretty cool.
The more they can make each races' looks, actions and strategiescontrast- while keeping their legendary balancing- the more awesome the game becomes to me!!!!!!!
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With the tower thing- if you think about it- those actually hurt them more than help against good players- for one- I can't imagine that would be free- but secondly- remember how you used to send a fake to his main while your force was at an expansion and you HOPED he saw it- well now he wont be able to not see it-
Now you can basically fake out a Terran player so much that you render his radar completely useless and make him wonder why he wasted the money on it.
I also doubt the radar will let him see detail of the units all the time- SO you could send in an army of workers and make him think its your real thing- with some units leading to knock out minor encounters- while your real army went somewhere else.
He might be able to scan areas of question if he can afford the exrta cpm.
So basically Terran's can afford to sit back a little more while it more important for their opponents to micro a bunch of fakes- But then if the Terran doesn't also step up his micro- then the adverse player will be able to get through.
I do hope though that blizzard takes into account the cpm factor this demands on opponents into their balancing of all the races.
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and as far as the bunkers- they will now mainly be used to block off ramps instead of barracks- and if you have a bunch of supply depots in your base and you get attacked from the rear- well now a whole another element of those bunkers being microd comes into play.
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blizzard won't be so stupid to just give terrans vision of all movements on the map
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geez, so much overracting really kills any goodwill to listen to real concerns.
Graphics : so far, I'd say (and like many previous Blizzard games, but non only) I'll judge from gameplay videos. Most 3d units tend to look unbievelably dumb when still, and 99% of the time we'll see much zoomed out fast action. If they were to choose, I'll ask Blizzard for the best animations, rather than overdetailled models.
New units : I just support any heavy change, because the day I'll have a hand on this game, I'll know for sure it will be a whole new world to explore. What's the point of bitching for every new unit announced ? Because you keep seeking for all unbalances even before imagining new gameplay twists ? Of course Blizzard will provide Terrans will a map-scale radar thing, just to make sure this race gonna rape the other... stop thinking you're outsmarting the devs, who - guess what - are actually testing these additions.
I really like those annoucement, because we can sense a distinctive feel for terrans really focused on tactical advantage and resilience (siege tanks, transforming vehicles, radar seeking, burrowing wall in...) while protoss still are the power hitters and use large scale devastating powers.
I do understand many players are just putting too much pressure on their own expectancies for this game. Just relax, and wait to see how these parts works together...
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As far as the new units are concerned, the underground supply depots will give a new meaning to the word "wall"
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Cant believe some of you are complaining about the DT. Do you even know what it looks like in BW? I sure dont. A one-legged Templar using his blade as a crutch comes to mind though. And his weapon? A flexible isoceles-triangle-shaped blade. But looking at this unit model, the BW unit makes a little more sense.
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EPT
