On August 16 2020 12:13 ShowTheLights wrote: jesus this was such a HORRIBLE finals
for such a great season up to the ro 16, the playoffs SUCKEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
so disappointing..
DRG beating Inno really screwed the entire top half of the bracket. For as good of a story DRG's comeback was, his 2 playoff series were sweeps and Inno would have actually put up a fight against Rogue.
If INno can't beat DRG he isn't just good enough to take a map to Rogue. Stop overrating INno, it's been 3 years he can't win anything signifiant and TY said something like INno doesn't gamble enough to be at the top again, he should take this Cure approach and learn.
Stop overrating Cure. He hasn't won anything significant, period. There are players Inno could learn from, but Cure isn't one of them.
I used to dislike Rogue, but these days I'm liking him more and more. The man just gives no fucks, none at all.
Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
beating Dream, DRG and Stats at that map score is a nice run from Rogue. Definitely not the most exciting finals, but very deserving win. Rogue dominates again!
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
It’s a hugely demanding game, mistakes will happen. Focusing on mistakes in lieu of balance, is a great way to improve as a player, I’m not sure it’s the best approach for looking at this particular matchup as a whole.
I do look forward to watching, love Harstem’s stuff. Just stuff like what are good options in the matchup currently, and why are players picking them, what are Zerg’s counters etc are all just as relevant.
Trap’s has a fair bit of success with Collosus based timings (I’m sure others have just he’s the one I’ve seen utilise a fair bit) and we saw Stats try that. Lost his prism and with it the timing window and was dead as soon as Vipers got out with energy. So a mistake there for sure.
Final set Stats leaves the door open after some smart ling movement from Rogue. Watching Stats’ camera he was looking elsewhere when this happened, but yeah that’s a mistake.
I guess the question is what is a desirable flow of the matchup and are some of the margins too thin?
One suggestion I’ve heard a few people make is shield batteries that retract, so Protoss can wall without units. Small change sure but I quite like that. Not because it would reward sloppy play, but it would free up players to be a bit more aggressive with early gateway units and stop the Zerg droning quite as freely. Small potential change but could have some impacts on early games and snowball nicely.
Rogue also brought a higher level to the series and even if people have issues with top level PvZ I don’t think I’ve seen many disputing Rogue’s merit in winning to be fair.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
One of the saddest finals I've ever seen. So terrible. PvZ is really at its bottom for at least two years. Do not get me wrong - Rogue is far more superior to Stats. He didn't win because of the pitiful balance. But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin? Even Rogue didn't seem that excited after he won. What a sad joke. Still it was a great Code S with probably one of the greatest Ro16 I've seen in a long time. Protoss expensive units don't matter for a long time because of viper abduct abilities. Take them for a second and the whole army is gone. From all the three races, protoss is the race right now which has no right to make even the slight mistake in the middle and late game. One mistake and you're gone. Any toss wins could seem like you need to hide some build/units and to steal the game. Not because of mechanics. Or you have to outsmart your opponent. I blamed Zest why he played with so many gate units and I feel for his decisions.
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
I mean Parting has picked up a trick or two from the god MaxPax in semi-recent times.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
I mean Parting has picked up a trick or two from the god MaxPax in semi-recent times.
Printf and even randoms on NA too.
Special is very open about finding weird builds from much worse players and just tightening the builds up.
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Harstem is wrong, the only mistake Stats made was trying to make macro work vs zerg which it does not.
Which is what the biggest complaint should be, Protoss cant compete in macro games vs Zerg, if people like Harstem who is a PRO can't see that then I'm seriously confused.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
When the good strategies don't work because the balance of the game doesn't favor you, then you pick poor ones that might give you a chance if they catch your opponent off guard.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
Not play Stargate on 3 maps probably.
On August 16 2020 23:27 BisuDagger wrote:
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
When the good strategies don't work because the balance of the game doesn't favor you, then you pick poor ones that might give you a chance if they catch your opponent off guard.
On August 17 2020 04:11 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Harstem is wrong, the only mistake Stats made was trying to make macro work vs zerg which it does not.
Which is what the biggest complaint should be, Protoss cant compete in macro games vs Zerg, if people like Harstem who is a PRO can't see that then I'm seriously confused.
Really? I can pinpoint a couple key mistakes for nearly every game.
Game 1: He scouts the spire while it was building, but either didn't click on it or had a complete brainfart. He didn't make any pheonixes, instead throwing down two more stargates and a fleet beacon. If those mutas came into the base only to be massacred by a group of 4 or 5 pheonixes, then the game looks entirely different. Stats would have way more probes that he didn't lose to mutas, as well as several more storms he wasted on the mutas. That would help him deflect the hydra push, and he could go into end game in a pretty damn good position.
Game 2: He goes for mass pheonixes but doesn't really get anything done with them. With that many you want to clear entire mineral lines at a time to do big damage, or at least go around picking off queens. Instead he killed drones 2 or 3 at a time, allowing Rogue to literally just drone even harder with no real economic damage. Additionally, Stats scouted the hydra den, but didn't see a single hydra with the pheonixes. If that doesn't signal an attack idk what does. You could also argue that going to 4 bases without storm or a decent gateway count is insanely greedy. Rogue scouted that greed and also managed to contaminate storm, allowing him to hit before Stats had storm or any means to convert his large bank into army.
Game 3: This comes down to that prism. At that point in the fight Rogue had a basic army, as he was putting a lot of money into teching to lurker viper. Stats allowed his prism to get sniped by biles, which is a pretty big mistake if you ask me, and that ended the push. Afterwards Rogue had room to breath, so he morphed lurkers and vipers, and won the game. But if Stats had kept his prism alive then that push earlier could have killed at least two of Rogue's bases, if not killed Rogue outright.
Game 5: He had a probe in the wall waiting specifically to block in case zerglings come in. And he didn't block, so the zerglings got in. What kind of nerf do you think you can give to zerg that would have prevented Rogue from getting slow lings into Stats' base there? As a protoss or zerg, you have a few options for walls. Either make a choke and put a unit in the wall, or wall off entirely. As a protoss you could also keep a probe there to make a shield battery or pylon if you're confident you can react in time. It's not Rogue's fault or game imbalance that Stats took that gamble and failed to do his part.
This wasn't just Stats going into macro games and then losing to zerg bullshit. These are mistakes that I think even Stats would admit are not Code S finals standard.
It's funny how you people try to cover up the most obvious by saying that Stats did way too many things wrong. Please look at the tournament wins in the past 5 years. Zerg is absolutely broken, other races cannot compete with the macro. Only way is to play some cheesy all in bullshit to have a chance to even things up if the game goes longer, it's stupid af. Playing vs Zerg is like a time bomb, you know that you are behind at every stage of the game but you need to play 10x times better.
man david kim leaving really did a number on sc2.. i'm sorry but he wouldve never let the game get to this state. for all the criticism wol (and hots) was much better balanced across skill levels, pro tournaments, and even early to late game.
stats played horribly but congrats to another free gsl to rogue who "didnt practice".
On August 17 2020 17:18 luxon wrote: man david kim leaving really did a number on sc2.. i'm sorry but he wouldve never let the game get to this state. for all the criticism wol (and hots) was much better balanced across skill levels, pro tournaments, and even early to late game.
stats played horribly but congrats to another free gsl to rogue who "didnt practice".
It was a freewin for Rogue but he said in the interview he practiced and prepared his ass off to a point it became really stressful and that is why he would like to take it easy in the next season.
On August 16 2020 18:29 Nothera wrote: Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
You can't just take winners into account, especially in stacked tournaments you need to have a look at top 8 and put it in relation to the starting line up for a better picture. Especially with people like Serral or Reynor in the picture who are just on another level than all other non Koreans. Saying that Zerg is OP because they win a lot of online cups does not mean that Zerg is OP.
Take DH Summer Finals, 8T 3Z and 5P in Group and 5T 2Z 1P in Ro8, Serral won it. You could argue that Zerg is the weakest Race for only having 3 Qualified, but Serral and Reynor are so exceptional that they can make it through the Terran and Protoss domination, Reynor even then falling to Trap.
TSL5 was pretty balanced with SoO winning, but Inno taking 2nd (4-3 finals) and Protoss 3rd and 4th.
IEM makes perhaps the strongest case for Zerg being too strong, but still, Group Stages:5T 9Z 10P, Ro8: 2T 3 Z 3P, still not that imbalanced with Zest winning all PvZ but the finals after having beat Rogue 2-1 even in Group Stages. Zerg OP? Perhaps slightly here
GSTL ? looks balanced
GSL S1 ? Terran looks way OP here, only 1 Zerg in Ro8, 3P and 4T
GSL S2 ? Ro16 looks kinda balanced, slight Terran domination, Ro8 is 3T 2Z 3P, Rogue takes it against a weak stats, as Harstem himself said, not imbalanced
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9TRB8vs.png)
