EPTOn August 20 2020 11:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm just reading through all the comments here and elsewhere, and...
I just want to say. Did NO ONE notice the ACTUAL error Stats made in Game 2?
He completely fucked up with his 2 Sentries at his natural choke that were supposed to buy time for Storm to finish, which would let him completely shut Rogue out from attacking lest he wants to eat several Storms while trying to shoot down his wall.
It's not his Phoenix macro build, or the balance or anything else that game. He simply didn't look for a couple seconds and those few lings killed his 1st Sentry, and pushed his 2nd Sentry back enough that it also couldn't get good enough FF's at the natural. The first Sentry threw a FF down that failed to push the lings actually out so it died and used 0 useful FFs. The 2nd Sentry then threw down 2 messed up FF's so close to his Gates that Rogue's Hydras were able to stand on the ramp and shoot down his Gates/wall anyway.
He basically wasted 4 full FF's, when it was supposed to buy him 30 seconds more for Storm to finish and completely deny Rogue from being able to attack. If he wanted to attack he'd have to attack buildings and eat Storms. And Stats could have warped in even more Sentries for more FF's if he didn't mess up. Instead he lost his wall so he had to warp in slow Zealots and make do because the Hydras already got in.
You guys really can't be making an informed opinion on things if you seriously didn't notice how pivotal those 2 Sentries were. I give Tastosis a pass because they were casting and it can be really easy to miss things like this because you just don't expect pros to be making such game-ending mistakes. Same thing in the last game where Stats didn't look for a couple seconds and he failed to plug his wall up vs those Zerglings.
Honestly I'm open to the idea of Batteries being able to lower like Depots, just to make things less punishing. It's not interesting losing to something just because you didn't look for a couple seconds. Terran doesn't have this problem because depots can lower, and because their production can be rallied to the lowered depot, and they have access to units like Hellions so ling runbys are way less effective. Toss meanwhile can just completely die as we saw. Instead of making Batteries lower, they could make it Protoss-y by having it "phase" out and become transparent energy or such, in this form it cannot regenerate Shields.
Without getting too much into the balance side of things, due to the 12 worker start seemingly benefiting Zerg the most of any race, it may be worth considering a universal slight nerf to Zerg macro. Something like making Queen build time a few seconds longer, making Inject give 1 less larva, or making Inject take a few more seconds to spawn the larva. Anything that might encourage you to make 1-2 more Hatcheries to compensate for the slight nerf, which would ever so slightly help compensate for Zerg disproportionately benefiting from LotV's 12 worker start.
I think the Viper may need to be taken another look at as well. Particularly Abduct's instant nature combined with Consume allowing for plenty of energy. Both Abduct + Consume further capitalize on Zerg benefiting from the 12 worker start because these are abilities that you can take full advantage of when you have a lead. Balance aside though, from a spectator perspective, seeing Rogue yoink those Colossus just felt so unfair, and was so lame and anticlimactic to watch. It's like the battle was decided before any fighting happened. If say Abduct had some kind of channel similar to Ghost's Steady Targetting, there could be more anticipation and counterplay. Or if Abduct pulled Massive units a shorter distance or dragged units while allowing the units to still attack, instead of yoinking instantly, there would be more tension and interaction.
I'm just reading through all the comments here and elsewhere, and...
I just want to say. Did NO ONE notice the ACTUAL error Stats made in Game 2?
He completely fucked up with his 2 Sentries at his natural choke that were supposed to buy time for Storm to finish, which would let him completely shut Rogue out from attacking lest he wants to eat several Storms while trying to shoot down his wall.
It's not his Phoenix macro build, or the balance or anything else that game. He simply didn't look for a couple seconds and those few lings killed his 1st Sentry, and pushed his 2nd Sentry back enough that it also couldn't get good enough FF's at the natural. The first Sentry threw a FF down that failed to push the lings actually out so it died and used 0 useful FFs. The 2nd Sentry then threw down 2 messed up FF's so close to his Gates that Rogue's Hydras were able to stand on the ramp and shoot down his Gates/wall anyway.
He basically wasted 4 full FF's, when it was supposed to buy him 30 seconds more for Storm to finish and completely deny Rogue from being able to attack. If he wanted to attack he'd have to attack buildings and eat Storms. And Stats could have warped in even more Sentries for more FF's if he didn't mess up. Instead he lost his wall so he had to warp in slow Zealots and make do because the Hydras already got in.
You guys really can't be making an informed opinion on things if you seriously didn't notice how pivotal those 2 Sentries were. I give Tastosis a pass because they were casting and it can be really easy to miss things like this because you just don't expect pros to be making such game-ending mistakes. Same thing in the last game where Stats didn't look for a couple seconds and he failed to plug his wall up vs those Zerglings.
Honestly I'm open to the idea of Batteries being able to lower like Depots, just to make things less punishing. It's not interesting losing to something just because you didn't look for a couple seconds. Terran doesn't have this problem because depots can lower, and because their production can be rallied to the lowered depot, and they have access to units like Hellions so ling runbys are way less effective. Toss meanwhile can just completely die as we saw. Instead of making Batteries lower, they could make it Protoss-y by having it "phase" out and become transparent energy or such, in this form it cannot regenerate Shields.
Without getting too much into the balance side of things, due to the 12 worker start seemingly benefiting Zerg the most of any race, it may be worth considering a universal slight nerf to Zerg macro. Something like making Queen build time a few seconds longer, making Inject give 1 less larva, or making Inject take a few more seconds to spawn the larva. Anything that might encourage you to make 1-2 more Hatcheries to compensate for the slight nerf, which would ever so slightly help compensate for Zerg disproportionately benefiting from LotV's 12 worker start.
I think the Viper may need to be taken another look at as well. Particularly Abduct's instant nature combined with Consume allowing for plenty of energy. Both Abduct + Consume further capitalize on Zerg benefiting from the 12 worker start because these are abilities that you can take full advantage of when you have a lead. Balance aside though, from a spectator perspective, seeing Rogue yoink those Colossus just felt so unfair, and was so lame and anticlimactic to watch. It's like the battle was decided before any fighting happened. If say Abduct had some kind of channel similar to Ghost's Steady Targetting, there could be more anticipation and counterplay. Or if Abduct pulled Massive units a shorter distance or dragged units while allowing the units to still attack, instead of yoinking instantly, there would be more tension and interaction.
A fair observation.
First rewatch and discussing it my instinct was even with force field delaying and Stats getting a better defence in place and money storms Rogue would still have just had too much stuff for Stats to handle.
Possibly incorrect though.
The game is punishing and an unforgiving mistress indeed, although unbelievably punishing for Toss in PvZ with walling issues. Specifically because lings are so bloody fast and relatively expendable and only have to get in once.
It’s hard to defend a lot of stuff in the game, but this is far from the first time Protoss have lost games to walling fails at even the very highest level. Which is unbelievably frustrating as a fan, never mind a player on that stage.
Batteries being able to phase in and out wouldn’t change the game massively at all but it would aid walling at least.
