Rogue improved his perfect record in grand finals to seven-for-seven, crushing Stats in the Code S Season 2 finals by a 4-1 scoreline. Rogue's aggressive and creative side had shined in his recent matches, but playing a predictable and orthodox opponent like Stats gave him a golden opportunity to remind everyone about his skills in more standard games. Stats didn't have any strategies planned to take Rogue out of his comfort zone, which let Rogue beat him convincingly in several macro games to begin the series. Of course, it wouldn't be a Rogue series without at least a few all-ins. While Rogue's failed Roach-Ravager-Zergling attack Stats to put a point on the board in game four, Rogue's Speedling all-in (with the help from an open wall) finished the series on the fifth map.
With the victory, Rogue clinched his second career Code S title, having won his first back in Season 3 of 2019. The victory also marked Rogue's third time repeating his pattern of suffering group stage elimination in Code S and following-up with a championship run in a subsequent tournament. This trend of inconsistency seems like it will continue—when asked if he'd be aiming to break Maru's streak of winning four Code S titles in a row, Rogue admittedly he'd rather take it easy next season. For his fellow Code S players, and for the international players in DreamHack Fall Season Finals (Sept 17-20), that will probably come as a relief.
For Stats, Rogue was an unfortunate opponent to draw in the finals. The Shield of Aiur had expressed his desire to have one last blaze of glory before departing to fulfill his mandatory military service, which had inspired his recent run of good form. But while Stats' PvT and PvP statistics had been monstrous, his PvZ had trailed far behind. With the benefit of hindsight, this one-sided finals result almost seems inevitable. Still, as Stats does not yet have a set date for his military service, fans might hope to see him make a true final run in Code S Season 3. And, alongside Rogue and the other top six GSL players, he'll also have a chance to win some online glory in the DreamHack Fall Season Finals.
Game 1 - Deathaura: Stats started things off with an Oracle opener, a trusty strategy that he'd used to cripple the economies of many a Zerg in the past. This time around, he didn't deal nearly as much damage as he would have hoped, sacrificing two Adepts and an Oracle to kill eight Drones (on top of a heavy investment of making three total Oracles). With the early game harassment phase over, Rogue and Stats played as if they had reached a gentlemen's agreement, taking additional bases and building up armies on their respective sides of the map.
The build-up phase saw Rogue gain a few little advantages, such as blowing up a Warp Prism that tried to sneak a few Zealots into his main, or delaying Stats' fourth base with a Zergling run-by. Rogue's big picture plan was to make an army of Hydralisks and Banelings, and then make a sly tech-switch to Mutalisks. Stats was aware of this possibility and started warping in Stargates and a Fleet Beacon just to stay safe, but unfortunately for him, Rogue's thought process was just a few cycles faster. The Mutalisks arrived at an earlier timing than Stats expected, killing off Probes in the Protoss main and taking down the Pylons powering the Stargates.
Rather than just accept this damage and try to recover, Stats pulled the trigger on a counter-attack with his Zealot-Archon-Templar force. However, the maneuver only put Stats further behind, as he took huge army losses while only killing a moderate amount of Drones. Soon after, Rogue gathered a force of a Mutalisks and Hydralisks and finished off his depleted opponent.
Game 2 - Golden Wall: Stats opted to use another Stargate opener, this time making a Phoenix as his first first unit to clear out scouting Overlords and lay the foundation for a two-Stargate strategy. Curious as to what his opponent might be hiding, Rogue quickly started his Overlord speed upgrade and uncovered Stats' plan before he had massed too many Phoenixes. Rogue was content to cede map and vision control to Stats for the time being, hunkering down with anti-air defenses on four bases on the north side of Golden Wall. Meanwhile, Stats mined out his backdoor mineral wall and took his backdoor expansion, planning to play around the south side of the map.
After using a speed-upgraded Overseer to elude Stats' Phoenixes and get some solid reconnaissance in, Rogue decided he could move out with his Hydra-Baneling army and attack Rogue's natural. While Stats was caught at an awkward timing where he was transitioning from Phoenixes to Zealot-Templar, it seemed like he might make a tight hold. He had Sentries to delay at his narrow natural choke, and Storm research was nearing completion.
However, things ended up going just about as poorly as possible for Stats. He lost one of his Sentries due a micro mistake, and was slow to reposition his Sentries that were defending his south side bases. Meanwhile, Rogue's Overseer contaminated the Templar Archives, delaying Storm research by an agonizing twenty-one seconds. What ended up happening was Rogue's Hydralisks tore down the building wall, slithered straight up into the natural, and set themselves up into a deadly concave formation. Even when Storm finally completed, the Hydralisks proved to be an unbeatable force, and Stats was forced to GG out.
Game 3 - Eternal Empire: With Stats' Stargate openers failing to achieve much in the first two games, Stats switched it up in game three by going for new Protoss standard in Glaive-upgraded Adepts. Rogue wasn't fazed by this common strategy, and executed the standard Speedling-Roach defense. Stats played conservative and declined to gamble on massive Adept dive, but he did manage to sneak in a few Drone kills by shading in a couple of Adepts at a time. This early exchange didn't leave any player looking worse for wear, and Stats simply took his third base and began a transition to Colossus and Blink-Stalker tech. Meanwhile, Rogue built up a mid-game army of Roaches and Ravagers, made an opportunistic poke into Stats's third base, and then retreated to secure his fourth and fifth bases.
Rogue continued to climb the tech tree toward Vipers and Lurkers, but Stats wasn't just going to leave him to be. Once he had two Colossi, several Blink Stalkers, and Sentries with a decent amount of energy banked up, he decided to strike before high-tech units could enter the battlefield. This timing seemed advantageous for Stats, as the army supplies were near even (or Protoss-favored considering the supply-ballast effect of Roaches). However, Rogue wriggled his way out of this tricky situation by executing a beautiful flanking maneuver against the Protoss force, allowing him to battle Stats to a standstill and force a retreat.
This let Rogue comfortably add Vipers and Talon/Spine-upgraded Lurkers to his force, at which point he was ready to deal the killing blow. Yet again, Rogue managed to get a flanking engagement on the Protoss force, this time drawing it out of position with a backdoor Zergling attack on an undefended expansion. Rogue's Hydra-Roach-Lurker swarm easily trampled over Stats' Protoss force, with Viper Abducts on Colossi only serving to increase the margin of Zerg victory.
Game 4 - Submarine: Stats had been quite dedicated to harassing with his first two Adepts in the series, and in game four, he got his best result yet by trading the Adepts for five Drone kills. In the meanwhile, he had gone for a fast Robotics Facility, which lined up nicely against the two-base Roach-Ravager-Zergling all-in Rogue was planning. Cranking out troops on two bases, Stats was able to hold against Rogue's attack without too much difficulty, leaving him with a massive tech and economy advantage. Stats decided to play his lead out slowly by securing a third base, which forced Rogue to create his own GG timing by going for a second, even more futile all-in attack.
Game 5 - Ever Dream: Stargate openers were back for Stats in game five, but the game ended before we could see a single Protoss air unit. Rogue made a show of going up to three bases, while actually planning a low-econ Speedling all-in. While this strategy can sometimes batter down a Protoss wall by sheer strength of numbers, Rogue made it even easier for himself by taking advantage of Stats' constant two-Adept pokes throughout the series.
He slipped eight lings around a side path on the map, timing them to arrive just as the two Adepts were starting to begin their own harassment. While Stats did have a Probe in position to make a blocking Pylon, he was microing his Adepts at the exact instant the Zerglings were streaming through the gap in his wall (watching the first person view, Rogue may have semi-intentionally sent his defending lings to fight the Adepts as a well-timed distraction). This happened to be a Gateway-Core-Stargate wall, which meant Rogue shut down the entirety of Stats' army production by razing a single Pylon. With Zerglings already inside his base and unable to build any units but Probes, Stats GG'd out.
I suppose it is a tradition to have lopsided GSL finals, but my god did Stats look outclassed in every aspect in this match. Artosis and Tasteless mentioned his usual very careful style where he tries to do damage without over-committing, but I think he would have been served well by taking some more risks. Rogue never looked bothered or surprised in these matches.
On August 16 2020 12:13 ShowTheLights wrote: jesus this was such a HORRIBLE finals
for such a great season up to the ro 16, the playoffs SUCKEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
so disappointing..
DRG beating Inno really screwed the entire top half of the bracket. For as good of a story DRG's comeback was, his 2 playoff series were sweeps and Inno would have actually put up a fight against Rogue.
On August 16 2020 12:13 ShowTheLights wrote: jesus this was such a HORRIBLE finals
for such a great season up to the ro 16, the playoffs SUCKEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
so disappointing..
DRG beating Inno really screwed the entire top half of the bracket. For as good of a story DRG's comeback was, his 2 playoff series were sweeps and Inno would have actually put up a fight against Rogue.
Yeah I agree
I also think Ty would have put up a much better fight vs Rogue
I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
I think most people would agree that Rogue played far better than Stats last night lol, Stats definitely had some head-scratching moments in that series. I don't think there's any world in which Stats could've beaten Rogue either in a Bo7 either, Rogue just knows how to roll through safe and standard Protoss macro-play, and that's all Stats knows how to do. All in all, I don't think it's fair to call zerg OP based on just this series - one player was clearly so much better than the other. Shame that TY didn't make it through, at least he would've put up a fight.
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
I dont think this one is to blame on balance completely as Stats looked off and Rogue simply made a lot less mistakes. But you have to notice the trend of insanely lopsided ZvP finals and other high staked matches.The only way I remember a protoss beating a zerg in a really important knockout match in the last year was with cheeses that basically never worked after in those high stakes matches (Zest at IEM Katowice with the adept printer - which Rogue destroyed just a few hours later - and Classic blinking DTs and getting applauded for getting cannon rush victory lmao). Seeing protoss as a purely "gimmick" race is sad and Protoss players deserve better imo.
The chance of protoss players just being worse and the Zergs being more talented as the meme answer goes is just completely impossible. Something has to be done to this matchup design wise or we will see even more finals like this and IEM Katowice 2020. Sadly you simply cant do a lot of nerfs because it would break other matchups (like the bane nerf that got scaled back).Blizzard is already trying this with the VR changes but I see this as a blind shot in the dark so to say. It is a really tough problem to solve and I sadly dont see anything on the horizon
On August 16 2020 12:13 ShowTheLights wrote: jesus this was such a HORRIBLE finals
for such a great season up to the ro 16, the playoffs SUCKEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
so disappointing..
DRG beating Inno really screwed the entire top half of the bracket. For as good of a story DRG's comeback was, his 2 playoff series were sweeps and Inno would have actually put up a fight against Rogue.
If INno can't beat DRG he isn't just good enough to take a map to Rogue. Stop overrating INno, it's been 3 years he can't win anything signifiant and TY said something like INno doesn't gamble enough to be at the top again, he should take this Cure approach and learn.
On August 16 2020 12:13 ShowTheLights wrote: jesus this was such a HORRIBLE finals
for such a great season up to the ro 16, the playoffs SUCKEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
so disappointing..
DRG beating Inno really screwed the entire top half of the bracket. For as good of a story DRG's comeback was, his 2 playoff series were sweeps and Inno would have actually put up a fight against Rogue.
If INno can't beat DRG he isn't just good enough to take a map to Rogue. Stop overrating INno, it's been 3 years he can't win anything signifiant and TY said something like INno doesn't gamble enough to be at the top again, he should take this Cure approach and learn.
Stop overrating Cure. He hasn't won anything significant, period. There are players Inno could learn from, but Cure isn't one of them.
I used to dislike Rogue, but these days I'm liking him more and more. The man just gives no fucks, none at all.
Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
beating Dream, DRG and Stats at that map score is a nice run from Rogue. Definitely not the most exciting finals, but very deserving win. Rogue dominates again!
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
It’s a hugely demanding game, mistakes will happen. Focusing on mistakes in lieu of balance, is a great way to improve as a player, I’m not sure it’s the best approach for looking at this particular matchup as a whole.
I do look forward to watching, love Harstem’s stuff. Just stuff like what are good options in the matchup currently, and why are players picking them, what are Zerg’s counters etc are all just as relevant.
Trap’s has a fair bit of success with Collosus based timings (I’m sure others have just he’s the one I’ve seen utilise a fair bit) and we saw Stats try that. Lost his prism and with it the timing window and was dead as soon as Vipers got out with energy. So a mistake there for sure.
Final set Stats leaves the door open after some smart ling movement from Rogue. Watching Stats’ camera he was looking elsewhere when this happened, but yeah that’s a mistake.
I guess the question is what is a desirable flow of the matchup and are some of the margins too thin?
One suggestion I’ve heard a few people make is shield batteries that retract, so Protoss can wall without units. Small change sure but I quite like that. Not because it would reward sloppy play, but it would free up players to be a bit more aggressive with early gateway units and stop the Zerg droning quite as freely. Small potential change but could have some impacts on early games and snowball nicely.
Rogue also brought a higher level to the series and even if people have issues with top level PvZ I don’t think I’ve seen many disputing Rogue’s merit in winning to be fair.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
One of the saddest finals I've ever seen. So terrible. PvZ is really at its bottom for at least two years. Do not get me wrong - Rogue is far more superior to Stats. He didn't win because of the pitiful balance. But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin? Even Rogue didn't seem that excited after he won. What a sad joke. Still it was a great Code S with probably one of the greatest Ro16 I've seen in a long time. Protoss expensive units don't matter for a long time because of viper abduct abilities. Take them for a second and the whole army is gone. From all the three races, protoss is the race right now which has no right to make even the slight mistake in the middle and late game. One mistake and you're gone. Any toss wins could seem like you need to hide some build/units and to steal the game. Not because of mechanics. Or you have to outsmart your opponent. I blamed Zest why he played with so many gate units and I feel for his decisions.
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
I mean Parting has picked up a trick or two from the god MaxPax in semi-recent times.
On August 16 2020 20:17 DieuCure wrote: Knowing that every human is flawed, there is a strong possibility that he or she has to learn from a person despite the fact that he or she is less successful in one area or another.
Moreover, Cure made a final of GSL two months ago, for INno it's counted in years.
But as usual INno fans at the wheel.
Knowing that every human's time is limited, there is a strong possibility that he or she should study what works instead of what doesn't. And the only thing Cure has to teach Inno is how to get swept off the biggest stage. He just lost 0-4 to TY. In 2014, the only other time he made a big finals, he lost 0-4 to Bomber. Naturally, Inno's trophy cabinet speaks for itself.
Cure is indeed less successful than Inno, in the one area that matters most for all progamers–winning when it counts.
But as usual, your name says it all.
This is 100% wrong. Just because another player is more successful or another hasn't won finals does not mean per se that they cannot learn from that player. You are making such an extreme argument, especially since (at least arguably) Cure is doing better than Innovation recently with a GSL finals.
I mean Parting has picked up a trick or two from the god MaxPax in semi-recent times.
Printf and even randoms on NA too.
Special is very open about finding weird builds from much worse players and just tightening the builds up.
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Harstem is wrong, the only mistake Stats made was trying to make macro work vs zerg which it does not.
Which is what the biggest complaint should be, Protoss cant compete in macro games vs Zerg, if people like Harstem who is a PRO can't see that then I'm seriously confused.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
When the good strategies don't work because the balance of the game doesn't favor you, then you pick poor ones that might give you a chance if they catch your opponent off guard.
On August 16 2020 23:02 Veluvian wrote: But if many people claim that Stats had no new strategies in his mind, what he should do If they got inside his skin?
Not play Stargate on 3 maps probably.
On August 16 2020 23:27 BisuDagger wrote:
On August 16 2020 14:51 Niravroh wrote: I was watching Harstem's stream, and he was analyzing the games live. He is of the opinion that this loss was entirely on dumb mistakes Stats made, not balance. He said that when you can pinpoint losses to specific easily fixable mistakes on the side of the Protoss, it isn't fair to blame balance. There weren't any games where they were even with Stats making no major mistakes but Rogue winning through zerg imba anyways. Stats just played subpar compared to what we expect from him, and unfortunately you can't bring anything but your very best against Rogue in a finals like this if you want to stand a chance.
He also said that if you look at this match and all you get is zerg op, you should be disqualified from ever judging balance. I'd like to think what all of you think about that...
Stats also played unorthodox openings hoping to gain an edge on Solar, but those openings are definitely mistake prone against an amazing Zerg defender. I don't argue you aren't correct, but we can blame balance for forcing Stats to choose the strategies that he did.
I don't think you're making a good argument. Many pros and especially Korean ones will tell you opening Stargate is not very good. So if we go by that balance couldn't have forced Stats to open like this.
I really wish Stats tried to play a little more aggressive because it could have caught Rogue off guard.
When the good strategies don't work because the balance of the game doesn't favor you, then you pick poor ones that might give you a chance if they catch your opponent off guard.
On August 17 2020 04:11 Dedraterllaerau wrote: Harstem is wrong, the only mistake Stats made was trying to make macro work vs zerg which it does not.
Which is what the biggest complaint should be, Protoss cant compete in macro games vs Zerg, if people like Harstem who is a PRO can't see that then I'm seriously confused.
Really? I can pinpoint a couple key mistakes for nearly every game.
Game 1: He scouts the spire while it was building, but either didn't click on it or had a complete brainfart. He didn't make any pheonixes, instead throwing down two more stargates and a fleet beacon. If those mutas came into the base only to be massacred by a group of 4 or 5 pheonixes, then the game looks entirely different. Stats would have way more probes that he didn't lose to mutas, as well as several more storms he wasted on the mutas. That would help him deflect the hydra push, and he could go into end game in a pretty damn good position.
Game 2: He goes for mass pheonixes but doesn't really get anything done with them. With that many you want to clear entire mineral lines at a time to do big damage, or at least go around picking off queens. Instead he killed drones 2 or 3 at a time, allowing Rogue to literally just drone even harder with no real economic damage. Additionally, Stats scouted the hydra den, but didn't see a single hydra with the pheonixes. If that doesn't signal an attack idk what does. You could also argue that going to 4 bases without storm or a decent gateway count is insanely greedy. Rogue scouted that greed and also managed to contaminate storm, allowing him to hit before Stats had storm or any means to convert his large bank into army.
Game 3: This comes down to that prism. At that point in the fight Rogue had a basic army, as he was putting a lot of money into teching to lurker viper. Stats allowed his prism to get sniped by biles, which is a pretty big mistake if you ask me, and that ended the push. Afterwards Rogue had room to breath, so he morphed lurkers and vipers, and won the game. But if Stats had kept his prism alive then that push earlier could have killed at least two of Rogue's bases, if not killed Rogue outright.
Game 5: He had a probe in the wall waiting specifically to block in case zerglings come in. And he didn't block, so the zerglings got in. What kind of nerf do you think you can give to zerg that would have prevented Rogue from getting slow lings into Stats' base there? As a protoss or zerg, you have a few options for walls. Either make a choke and put a unit in the wall, or wall off entirely. As a protoss you could also keep a probe there to make a shield battery or pylon if you're confident you can react in time. It's not Rogue's fault or game imbalance that Stats took that gamble and failed to do his part.
This wasn't just Stats going into macro games and then losing to zerg bullshit. These are mistakes that I think even Stats would admit are not Code S finals standard.
It's funny how you people try to cover up the most obvious by saying that Stats did way too many things wrong. Please look at the tournament wins in the past 5 years. Zerg is absolutely broken, other races cannot compete with the macro. Only way is to play some cheesy all in bullshit to have a chance to even things up if the game goes longer, it's stupid af. Playing vs Zerg is like a time bomb, you know that you are behind at every stage of the game but you need to play 10x times better.
man david kim leaving really did a number on sc2.. i'm sorry but he wouldve never let the game get to this state. for all the criticism wol (and hots) was much better balanced across skill levels, pro tournaments, and even early to late game.
stats played horribly but congrats to another free gsl to rogue who "didnt practice".
On August 17 2020 17:18 luxon wrote: man david kim leaving really did a number on sc2.. i'm sorry but he wouldve never let the game get to this state. for all the criticism wol (and hots) was much better balanced across skill levels, pro tournaments, and even early to late game.
stats played horribly but congrats to another free gsl to rogue who "didnt practice".
It was a freewin for Rogue but he said in the interview he practiced and prepared his ass off to a point it became really stressful and that is why he would like to take it easy in the next season.
On August 16 2020 18:29 Nothera wrote: Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
You can't just take winners into account, especially in stacked tournaments you need to have a look at top 8 and put it in relation to the starting line up for a better picture. Especially with people like Serral or Reynor in the picture who are just on another level than all other non Koreans. Saying that Zerg is OP because they win a lot of online cups does not mean that Zerg is OP.
Take DH Summer Finals, 8T 3Z and 5P in Group and 5T 2Z 1P in Ro8, Serral won it. You could argue that Zerg is the weakest Race for only having 3 Qualified, but Serral and Reynor are so exceptional that they can make it through the Terran and Protoss domination, Reynor even then falling to Trap.
TSL5 was pretty balanced with SoO winning, but Inno taking 2nd (4-3 finals) and Protoss 3rd and 4th.
IEM makes perhaps the strongest case for Zerg being too strong, but still, Group Stages:5T 9Z 10P, Ro8: 2T 3 Z 3P, still not that imbalanced with Zest winning all PvZ but the finals after having beat Rogue 2-1 even in Group Stages. Zerg OP? Perhaps slightly here
GSTL ? looks balanced
GSL S1 ? Terran looks way OP here, only 1 Zerg in Ro8, 3P and 4T
GSL S2 ? Ro16 looks kinda balanced, slight Terran domination, Ro8 is 3T 2Z 3P, Rogue takes it against a weak stats, as Harstem himself said, not imbalanced
On August 16 2020 18:29 Nothera wrote: Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
You can't just take winners into account, especially in stacked tournaments you need to have a look at top 8 and put it in relation to the starting line up for a better picture. Especially with people like Serral or Reynor in the picture who are just on another level than all other non Koreans. Saying that Zerg is OP because they win a lot of online cups does not mean that Zerg is OP.
Take DH Summer Finals, 8T 3Z and 5P in Group and 5T 2Z 1P in Ro8, Serral won it. You could argue that Zerg is the weakest Race for only having 3 Qualified, but Serral and Reynor are so exceptional that they can make it through the Terran and Protoss domination, Reynor even then falling to Trap.
TSL5 was pretty balanced with SoO winning, but Inno taking 2nd (4-3 finals) and Protoss 3rd and 4th.
IEM makes perhaps the strongest case for Zerg being too strong, but still, Group Stages:5T 9Z 10P, Ro8: 2T 3 Z 3P, still not that imbalanced with Zest winning all PvZ but the finals after having beat Rogue 2-1 even in Group Stages. Zerg OP? Perhaps slightly here
GSTL ? looks balanced
GSL S1 ? Terran looks way OP here, only 1 Zerg in Ro8, 3P and 4T
GSL S2 ? Ro16 looks kinda balanced, slight Terran domination, Ro8 is 3T 2Z 3P, Rogue takes it against a weak stats, as Harstem himself said, not imbalanced
If one race wins more tournaments than the other two combined I think there may be a balance problem. Maybe a slight nerf to Zerg economy is in order, since there is no single strategy that seems OP.
On August 16 2020 18:29 Nothera wrote: Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
You can't just take winners into account, especially in stacked tournaments you need to have a look at top 8 and put it in relation to the starting line up for a better picture. Especially with people like Serral or Reynor in the picture who are just on another level than all other non Koreans. Saying that Zerg is OP because they win a lot of online cups does not mean that Zerg is OP.
Take DH Summer Finals, 8T 3Z and 5P in Group and 5T 2Z 1P in Ro8, Serral won it. You could argue that Zerg is the weakest Race for only having 3 Qualified, but Serral and Reynor are so exceptional that they can make it through the Terran and Protoss domination, Reynor even then falling to Trap.
TSL5 was pretty balanced with SoO winning, but Inno taking 2nd (4-3 finals) and Protoss 3rd and 4th.
IEM makes perhaps the strongest case for Zerg being too strong, but still, Group Stages:5T 9Z 10P, Ro8: 2T 3 Z 3P, still not that imbalanced with Zest winning all PvZ but the finals after having beat Rogue 2-1 even in Group Stages. Zerg OP? Perhaps slightly here
GSTL ? looks balanced
GSL S1 ? Terran looks way OP here, only 1 Zerg in Ro8, 3P and 4T
GSL S2 ? Ro16 looks kinda balanced, slight Terran domination, Ro8 is 3T 2Z 3P, Rogue takes it against a weak stats, as Harstem himself said, not imbalanced
If one race wins more tournaments than the other two combined I think there may be a balance problem. Maybe a slight nerf to Zerg economy is in order, since there is no single strategy that seems OP.
IMO the issue is when one race is overrepresented in the finals/semis/RO8. When some race cannot win tourneys but can get to the finals, is it a balance or psychological issue? Hmm, I wonder (in case of Trap in 2019 it was more of his PvZ issue )
Edit> to be fair, we should remove foreigner only tourneys, because the skill gap between Serral and the rest of foreigners is big and it appears only Reynor in ZvZ is able to cross it. Which makes the statistics wrong.
I don't think Serral and Reynor are "just on another level than all other non koreans". Of course since zerg is hella strong since 4 years they will always look stronger than they are, and so you'll think they are a bit better than they really are, thus using that as a justification for their dominance, but this is a vicious circle. For example Clem is at Reynor / Serral level a lot of times, and on the protoss side Neeb / ShoWTimE sometimes are as well.
About this finals, it's probably a mix of both zerg being strong and Stats not playing at his best level, but since zerg is so strong in both vP and vT, it's kinda hard to be confident in a bo7 grand finals.
Congrats to Rogue, he always manages to win no matter what.
It is a pitty that his wins in ZvP are undermined due to the matchup imbalance at the highest levels. I bet he thinks this way too, and that's why he has been so vocal about it in the past.
I agree that Stats made more mistakes, and selected sub-optimal strategies. But we need to look further. He is not "bad at PvZ". Those strategies were selected because there are no optimal ones, probably trying to throw Rogue a bit off and confronting him with situations that he had not so much practice with. Those mistakes were game-ending due to the design of the matchup - you could even say the entire protoss race.
Yes Rogue can be better than any protoss. Dark also can. And Serral. And perhaps even Reynor. But you have to suspect when most of them are, for a long long time.
On Golden Wall does actually Rogue win by glooping the twilight? Storm finished 10 seconds too late and it looks like an overseer delayed it just on time.
On August 18 2020 07:51 Fango wrote: On Golden Wall does actually Rogue win by glooping the twilight? Storm finished 10 seconds too late and it looks like an overseer delayed it just on time.
That's exactly what happened. Rogue sent in an overseer to scout, and noticed that Stats had just dropped a ton of gates, and didn't have much production ready, just a lot of probes and bases. Additionally, the templar archives were spinning, meaning that storm was on the way. Seeing that, he contaminated storm, and just f2 a-moved his army to Stats' natural, knowing that Stats would have neither storm nor the production to utilize his massive economy. That's why he hit despite not having any hydra upgrades or bane speed. He scouted, saw Stats was being hella greedy, and used that timing to punish. I'm surprised more people didn't catch that one.
On August 18 2020 07:51 Fango wrote: On Golden Wall does actually Rogue win by glooping the twilight? Storm finished 10 seconds too late and it looks like an overseer delayed it just on time.
That's exactly what happened. Rogue sent in an overseer to scout, and noticed that Stats had just dropped a ton of gates, and didn't have much production ready, just a lot of probes and bases. Additionally, the templar archives were spinning, meaning that storm was on the way. Seeing that, he contaminated storm, and just f2 a-moved his army to Stats' natural, knowing that Stats would have neither storm nor the production to utilize his massive economy. That's why he hit despite not having any hydra upgrades or bane speed. He scouted, saw Stats was being hella greedy, and used that timing to punish. I'm surprised more people didn't catch that one.
I was stressing out over the fact the he could have popped like 6-8 overlords easy had he payed attention better and he could have gotten several queens too. It was also frustrating he never tried to attack with his pheonixes from the south or split them for multipronged harass. As a life long Bisu fan, I love watching overlords die.
On August 18 2020 11:42 BisuDagger wrote:] I was stressing out over the fact the he could have popped like 6-8 overlords easy had he payed attention better and he could have gotten several queens too. It was also frustrating he never tried to attack with his pheonixes from the south or split them for multipronged harass. As a life long Bisu fan, I love watching overlords die.
Stats scouted the hydra den really early, so maybe he was being really conservative with the pheonixes because he expected a hydra ambush? I agree though, he could have gotten waaayyy more damage with those pheonixes. Just popping the queens alone would probably have done more than the 2 or 3 drones at a time he got.
On August 18 2020 07:51 Fango wrote: On Golden Wall does actually Rogue win by glooping the twilight? Storm finished 10 seconds too late and it looks like an overseer delayed it just on time.
That's exactly what happened. Rogue sent in an overseer to scout, and noticed that Stats had just dropped a ton of gates, and didn't have much production ready, just a lot of probes and bases. Additionally, the templar archives were spinning, meaning that storm was on the way. Seeing that, he contaminated storm, and just f2 a-moved his army to Stats' natural, knowing that Stats would have neither storm nor the production to utilize his massive economy. That's why he hit despite not having any hydra upgrades or bane speed. He scouted, saw Stats was being hella greedy, and used that timing to punish. I'm surprised more people didn't catch that one.
I was stressing out over the fact the he could have popped like 6-8 overlords easy had he payed attention better and he could have gotten several queens too. It was also frustrating he never tried to attack with his pheonixes from the south or split them for multipronged harass. As a life long Bisu fan, I love watching overlords die.
You like Bisu? Weird, always had you down as a Janbgi man myself...
The storm contaminate was a solid move for sure. SC2 has come a fair way as a broadcast spectacle and Gameheart is a big improvement over the old UI. Still it’s difficult to catch everything as a caster/observer in real time.
Some post-game analysis from replays with knowledgable pros or something would be great. More in-depth interviews with the players too, although I guess it would be a bit rough on the loser after a grand final!
That game made me rather curious. I am unsure if Stats opened that way to counter expected Rogue shenanigans on GW and he went greedy based on what he saw, or that was Stats’ plan A from the beginning and it was Rogue who freestyled up a counter.
If it was the plan A working in practice I’m sure there’d be reasons there too. Did Stats get more done with his Phoenixes (he could have been more aggressive agreed here, finding more ovies, or hydras popping in low numbers), so it bought him time to hold pushes? Or did his partners not find the timing window Rogue did with the contaminate?
Honestly it’s been 10 years and most of our interpretations of GSL builds and strats and gambits are still mostly what we’re coming up with in LR threads. Be nice to hear more from the pros what’s really going on.
On August 17 2020 21:16 Poopi wrote: I don't think Serral and Reynor are "just on another level than all other non koreans". Of course since zerg is hella strong since 4 years they will always look stronger than they are, and so you'll think they are a bit better than they really are, thus using that as a justification for their dominance, but this is a vicious circle. For example Clem is at Reynor / Serral level a lot of times, and on the protoss side Neeb / ShoWTimE sometimes are as well.
About this finals, it's probably a mix of both zerg being strong and Stats not playing at his best level, but since zerg is so strong in both vP and vT, it's kinda hard to be confident in a bo7 grand finals.
Stats is mostly a kong, he seems to be quite bad at winning the finals. Not as bad as soO
So, if Clem is on the same level, why isn't he winning more things? Yes, when Neeb's on fire he can be on that level, but the last 2 years he's been on a lower level.
Look, they may be mechanically on the same level, but psychologically? Strategically? Why is Serral winning every foreign tourney and if not him then Reynor? If it's "zerg too stronk" excuse, why Maru won 4 Code S in a row then? Why Maru won the WESG? Why Classic won ST2 2018 over sOs(that's like 2 Protosses in them finals).
Why other players can do what foreigners can't? If they're trully on the same level and Korea can have 2 Protosses in the finals and Terran dominate everything for a year, then why no foreigner was able to win at least some tournament? Mind you that if others are on the same level, why they don't show this at IEM? Blizzcon?
Anyway, my point is that yes, Zerg wins a lot, but other races can get to the finals, so it doesn't seem like it's "zerg too stronk" but rather other issues. And that the foreigners are not on the Serral's level which makes the stats unreliable.
Edit> no matter what year you use it seems Korean can overcome "zerg too stronk" while some Korean Zergs are still capable of winning the WC title(meaning Korean zergs are not that bad as some people say they are) yet foreigners cannot. Really, tell my why, because you say the are players on the top level yet every final is either Reynor or Serral claiming the title.
i'm not sure if i'm allowed to mention this. but reading through the comments seems that many people are blaming it on the game balance. but I have a question. If an imbalance towards one of the races was the cause, wouldn't we see more of one race in the lower brackets? wouldn't proven champions playing said race have also exploited this imbalance in the game and not been eliminated in the group stages? i know we all have our favorites and we like to see them win, and we try to defend our convictions when they don't come through. but i believe that at this level of play if an imbalance would be the case, at a level that it would decide championships, it would be bluntly noticed.
but that said i'm only a casual viewer of the game and havent played in a few years so there are probably many aspects of the mechanics that are beyond my understanding. Gladly TastOsis is here to explain it to me while a watch theses gods of the game fight to the death for my nerdish enjoyment.
On August 16 2020 18:29 Nothera wrote: Seems balanced. I don't think zerg as a whole is OP, but when player really plays zerg flawlessly like Rogue, Dark, Reynor and Serral, it is impossible to beat them. Can't say the same about terran and protoss.
Everyone defending balance at this point needs to stfu and just look at this. Its been going on forever that zerg is too strong in this game (at least in LOTV expansion, much more balanced before).
You don't, you just don't get such a huge disparity in premier tournament wins if that race isn't flat out stronger
I'm just reading through all the comments here and elsewhere, and...
I just want to say. Did NO ONE notice the ACTUAL error Stats made in Game 2?
He completely fucked up with his 2 Sentries at his natural choke that were supposed to buy time for Storm to finish, which would let him completely shut Rogue out from attacking lest he wants to eat several Storms while trying to shoot down his wall.
It's not his Phoenix macro build, or the balance or anything else that game. He simply didn't look for a couple seconds and those few lings killed his 1st Sentry, and pushed his 2nd Sentry back enough that it also couldn't get good enough FF's at the natural. The first Sentry threw a FF down that failed to push the lings actually out so it died and used 0 useful FFs. The 2nd Sentry then threw down 2 messed up FF's so close to his Gates that Rogue's Hydras were able to stand on the ramp and shoot down his Gates/wall anyway.
He basically wasted 4 full FF's, when it was supposed to buy him 30 seconds more for Storm to finish and completely deny Rogue from being able to attack. If he wanted to attack he'd have to attack buildings and eat Storms. And Stats could have warped in even more Sentries for more FF's if he didn't mess up. Instead he lost his wall so he had to warp in slow Zealots and make do because the Hydras already got in.
You guys really can't be making an informed opinion on things if you seriously didn't notice how pivotal those 2 Sentries were. I give Tastosis a pass because they were casting and it can be really easy to miss things like this because you just don't expect pros to be making such game-ending mistakes. Same thing in the last game where Stats didn't look for a couple seconds and he failed to plug his wall up vs those Zerglings.
Honestly I'm open to the idea of Batteries being able to lower like Depots, just to make things less punishing. It's not interesting losing to something just because you didn't look for a couple seconds. Terran doesn't have this problem because depots can lower, and because their production can be rallied to the lowered depot, and they have access to units like Hellions so ling runbys are way less effective. Toss meanwhile can just completely die as we saw. Instead of making Batteries lower, they could make it Protoss-y by having it "phase" out and become transparent energy or such, in this form it cannot regenerate Shields.
Without getting too much into the balance side of things, due to the 12 worker start seemingly benefiting Zerg the most of any race, it may be worth considering a universal slight nerf to Zerg macro. Something like making Queen build time a few seconds longer, making Inject give 1 less larva, or making Inject take a few more seconds to spawn the larva. Anything that might encourage you to make 1-2 more Hatcheries to compensate for the slight nerf, which would ever so slightly help compensate for Zerg disproportionately benefiting from LotV's 12 worker start.
I think the Viper may need to be taken another look at as well. Particularly Abduct's instant nature combined with Consume allowing for plenty of energy. Both Abduct + Consume further capitalize on Zerg benefiting from the 12 worker start because these are abilities that you can take full advantage of when you have a lead. Balance aside though, from a spectator perspective, seeing Rogue yoink those Colossus just felt so unfair, and was so lame and anticlimactic to watch. It's like the battle was decided before any fighting happened. If say Abduct had some kind of channel similar to Ghost's Steady Targetting, there could be more anticipation and counterplay. Or if Abduct pulled Massive units a shorter distance or dragged units while allowing the units to still attack, instead of yoinking instantly, there would be more tension and interaction.
On August 20 2020 11:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm just reading through all the comments here and elsewhere, and...
I just want to say. Did NO ONE notice the ACTUAL error Stats made in Game 2?
He completely fucked up with his 2 Sentries at his natural choke that were supposed to buy time for Storm to finish, which would let him completely shut Rogue out from attacking lest he wants to eat several Storms while trying to shoot down his wall.
It's not his Phoenix macro build, or the balance or anything else that game. He simply didn't look for a couple seconds and those few lings killed his 1st Sentry, and pushed his 2nd Sentry back enough that it also couldn't get good enough FF's at the natural. The first Sentry threw a FF down that failed to push the lings actually out so it died and used 0 useful FFs. The 2nd Sentry then threw down 2 messed up FF's so close to his Gates that Rogue's Hydras were able to stand on the ramp and shoot down his Gates/wall anyway.
He basically wasted 4 full FF's, when it was supposed to buy him 30 seconds more for Storm to finish and completely deny Rogue from being able to attack. If he wanted to attack he'd have to attack buildings and eat Storms. And Stats could have warped in even more Sentries for more FF's if he didn't mess up. Instead he lost his wall so he had to warp in slow Zealots and make do because the Hydras already got in.
You guys really can't be making an informed opinion on things if you seriously didn't notice how pivotal those 2 Sentries were. I give Tastosis a pass because they were casting and it can be really easy to miss things like this because you just don't expect pros to be making such game-ending mistakes. Same thing in the last game where Stats didn't look for a couple seconds and he failed to plug his wall up vs those Zerglings.
Honestly I'm open to the idea of Batteries being able to lower like Depots, just to make things less punishing. It's not interesting losing to something just because you didn't look for a couple seconds. Terran doesn't have this problem because depots can lower, and because their production can be rallied to the lowered depot, and they have access to units like Hellions so ling runbys are way less effective. Toss meanwhile can just completely die as we saw. Instead of making Batteries lower, they could make it Protoss-y by having it "phase" out and become transparent energy or such, in this form it cannot regenerate Shields.
Without getting too much into the balance side of things, due to the 12 worker start seemingly benefiting Zerg the most of any race, it may be worth considering a universal slight nerf to Zerg macro. Something like making Queen build time a few seconds longer, making Inject give 1 less larva, or making Inject take a few more seconds to spawn the larva. Anything that might encourage you to make 1-2 more Hatcheries to compensate for the slight nerf, which would ever so slightly help compensate for Zerg disproportionately benefiting from LotV's 12 worker start.
I think the Viper may need to be taken another look at as well. Particularly Abduct's instant nature combined with Consume allowing for plenty of energy. Both Abduct + Consume further capitalize on Zerg benefiting from the 12 worker start because these are abilities that you can take full advantage of when you have a lead. Balance aside though, from a spectator perspective, seeing Rogue yoink those Colossus just felt so unfair, and was so lame and anticlimactic to watch. It's like the battle was decided before any fighting happened. If say Abduct had some kind of channel similar to Ghost's Steady Targetting, there could be more anticipation and counterplay. Or if Abduct pulled Massive units a shorter distance or dragged units while allowing the units to still attack, instead of yoinking instantly, there would be more tension and interaction.
A fair observation.
First rewatch and discussing it my instinct was even with force field delaying and Stats getting a better defence in place and money storms Rogue would still have just had too much stuff for Stats to handle.
Possibly incorrect though.
The game is punishing and an unforgiving mistress indeed, although unbelievably punishing for Toss in PvZ with walling issues. Specifically because lings are so bloody fast and relatively expendable and only have to get in once.
It’s hard to defend a lot of stuff in the game, but this is far from the first time Protoss have lost games to walling fails at even the very highest level. Which is unbelievably frustrating as a fan, never mind a player on that stage.
Batteries being able to phase in and out wouldn’t change the game massively at all but it would aid walling at least.
That bein said I agree with the assessment that zerg, if they make no mistakes and play perfectly will come out on top even if the opponent does the same.
Plus ther eis the fact that protoss is still the most fragile and unforgiving race, any mistake will almost immediately lose you the game, while you are still under pressure to deal damage in zvp or just lose to a zerg grown out of control.
On August 21 2020 17:08 Freeborn wrote: Rogue is awesome.
That bein said I agree with the assessment that zerg, if they make no mistakes and play perfectly will come out on top even if the opponent does the same.
Plus ther eis the fact that protoss is still the most fragile and unforgiving race, any mistake will almost immediately lose you the game, while you are still under pressure to deal damage in zvp or just lose to a zerg grown out of control.
Rogue isn't awesome
Rogue only wins when Zerg is fucking broken as hell
EPT
ITaX Super Series/15![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9TRB8vs.png)
(in case of Trap in 2019 it was more of his PvZ issue 
)
