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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 25 2020 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2020 00:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 00:06 Rainmansc wrote:On June 25 2020 00:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 00:03 Rainmansc wrote:On June 24 2020 23:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 23:53 Rainmansc wrote:On June 24 2020 23:37 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote:
[quote]
You are greatly over-reacting to that statement. I will try to explain better what the poster means:
Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
First off:
1. I'm confident that the poster understands their are times where the victim is physically overwhelmed by the other person and has no choice in whatever goes down.
2. This is not a gun victim where there is always a chance of imminent death.
The post is trying to say in situations like "A person cornered me in a club and started rubbing themselves on me. I felt so scared that I let the person continue until they we bored/finished and left me there".
There is quality education that can be done to help avoid, prevent, or escape that situation. In that situation, the victim is not powerless and without options. With training we can empower the victim.
I am in no way the qualified person to educate anyone on the ways to handle yourself, but I've always had my own checklist to help me stay out of trouble and I'm cautious even as a 6'3 230lb male. This is specific to the scenario I put above.
1. Go out with others
2. Make sure you and the others check in with each other periodically
3. Stay in public spots where you can scream and yell for help
4. Bring mace
The above are all preventative measures that help you avoid situations that could happen.
5. Call 911 immediately if no one is there to help you
6. etc.
There are obviously an infinite number of scenarios like the ones where someone drunk crawls into your bed. If that makes you uncomfortable, hopefully you can be educated how to calmly remove that person and if not, immediately find someone for help. But the whole point is, how can you know how to handle this without real life experience or elders taking the time to teach you how to handle the world as best as possible. I'm really disappointed by this response, BD. Victims of rape are scarred for life and many end up dead due to depression and suicide; our response shouldn't be to educate them on how to minimize the scarring but to put barriers in place to prevent these things from happening in the first place. Hannah Gadsby says, "We are not preparing our children..." in her newest show, Douglass, in reference to how we raise boys and girls in the social norm. Society often tells girls that they need to be careful, that they need to avoid dressing provocatively, that they need to follow guidelines for safety, whereas we generally just go, "oh welp, boys will be boys!" when we (don't) educate our boys. We should not be asking ourselves why so many women end up putting themselves in dangerous situations and instead be asking ourselves why those dangerous situations exist in the first place. If testosterone is a precursor to rape, then all men would be rapists. But it's not because rape is not a biological need, it's a learned behavior which has roots in misogyny and a disregard for other people's feelings. We breed men to be sociopathic sex machines and then blame women for it, and that's not okay. Men have the privilege, men have the power (socially, economically, and physically). The ball is in their court to act in good faith, educate themselves, make others feel comfortable, and ask for consent. Suggesting that we educate women when we already do is redundant and ignores the fact that the onus is on men to provide safe environments for women to not get raped in. (BTW, I just want to make it clear to everyone that I am advocating specifically for women abused by men because it is by far the most common scenario and because there is an inherent power dynamic that dominates that relationship. Abuse and other sexual misconduct occurs between all genders and even sometimes with women taking advantage of men and is just as reprehensible. Like I said, this isn't a hormone thing, it's a learned behavior, and it's inexcuseable no matter who it is.) Your whole state of mind is so wrong. When i was bullied at elementary school when i was a kid because i was small, my dad didnt go to their parents to tell them how i got bullied. No, he put me on Karate to give me self confidence and be able to protect myself. I can tell you 1 thing, just the confidence i got from those lessons was enough to stop those people from bullying me. Yes i had some fights but that was normal in my youth. You make it sound like woman are some 2nd degree humans which cant protect themselves and YOU need to protect them. No, education and warning them from certain situations will actually EMPOWER those woman hugely. You can't chance the world bro. You have to learn how to deal with the world. This triggers me so hard, especially as a teacher who sees this shit every week in school. This whole idea that abuse/ bullying/ assault/ harassment/ hate is really just tough love, and if you can't get over it then it's your fault, is some epic victim-blaming bullshit. That's not how power dynamics work. That's not how privilege works. It's cool you learned karate, but it'd be even cooler if we lived in a society that unified against people who tried to fuck over other people. Ofcourse it is but thats not the reality. The reality is that things like this happen and denying that is just putting your head in the sand. Thats why you should give people tools to deal with these situations. There is a difference between a woman having a rape whistle and blaming a woman for instigating her own rape. And you talk about Strawmans... You're victim-blaming. Whether it's "you didn't know karate so you deserved it; that's life" or "you shouldn't have been wearing such a short dress so you deserved it; that's life", it's the same thing. There's a fine line between victim blaming and positive action sometimes. The police put up billboards in Manchester a few years ago reminding people to lock their houses when they weren't at home. That's sound advice, but it COULD be portrayed as victim blaming. I think with sexual crime there's a added *something* that makes the victim blaming angle more priority, but i'm not sure what that is. Maybe its the personal, traumatic nature of the crimes. I'm detached from the problem so I don't 'get it' from a victims POV, but from a logical POV the situations are similar. The question is, is it just a matter of language (ie say the same thing about education without inferring that women are at fault for not being educated in whatever it is you want to educate them in), or is there no way of widely implementing anything that 'trains' or coaches people on how to deal with this stuff without it being seen as 'victim blaming'? Is even the suggestion that the victims could be mroe empowered victim blaming in itself? I don't think its as cut and dry as all that. Still, none of that takes away from the fact that even having this discussion is progress, even if alot of regressive views are being aired. I don't mind the police putting up billboards. I would mind if the police blamed the victims, whether or not they actually locked their houses. The idea of "Well, did you actually expect *not* to be robbed? I mean, your door wasn't locked!" is messed up. I'm going to lock my door as a deterrent (which may or may not really just be a placebo anyway, since if someone wants to get into my house they still could break a window, smash down the door, etc.), but society shouldn't be pointing the finger at the victim. I should have a reasonable expectation to not be robbed, similar to how I should have a reasonable expectation to not be raped or beaten up. If those reasonable expectations are gone, then the society isn't functioning in a way that provides a good level of safety and security for the inhabitants.
I genuinely don't think rainman at any point inferred that it is the victims fault the crime was perpetrated.
He's saying the victim could have been better prepared for the crime to take place, if we as a society spent more time preparing people against this kind of thing.
I think you made the leap from that to 'its the victims fault that they are a victim' which I can understand, but I think is wrong, and also counterproductive. Sometimes as a society we have to bite the bullet and accept that bad things like rape and sexual harassment WILL continue to happen, and try our best to make it so individuals can deal with that when it does happen.
It doesn't mean we shouldn't also attack the problem from the POV that every rape is the rapists fault, but we should also admit that there's things we can do better.
Maybe people should not put the spot on either the victim or the offender, but society as a whole, and that's where the 'education' angle comes in.
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On June 25 2020 00:22 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:11 linestein wrote:Personally I think the accuser Naomi is Faust. Consider these images: + Show Spoiler +If the accuser Naomi isn't even a real person then the evidence against RAPiD isn't very strong. These images from Discord are my best reply to what seems to be character defamation in this TwitLonger post. https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev Well the account that made the tweet was created and active since 2015, and also tied to an amateur starcraft II player with verified results. It'd be one hell of a long con.
What do you think of the Spoilered images?
I don't imagine Naomi enjoys talking dirty with Faust, but then has a problem with RAPiD. Also, we haven't really verified much about Naomi's identity. Anyone can create a relatively anonymous, inactive account and leave it there.
User was warned for this post
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On June 25 2020 00:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 23:53 Rainmansc wrote:On June 24 2020 23:37 EsportsJohn wrote:On June 24 2020 23:18 BisuDagger wrote:On June 24 2020 23:01 Elmonti wrote:On June 24 2020 22:51 True_Spike wrote:On June 24 2020 22:23 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
This whole post wreaks of victim blaming - educating women rather than telling men to stop harassing women? You do, understand, at least in the U.S., we have a ton of people convicted based on testimony alone? And there is not just one but several victims coming forward. This was really disappointing to read from you Spike. And to the individual who posts why would someone continue working with Rapid after these allegations? Just look at the situation regarding Harvey Weinstein and why people like Megan Fox would continue working with him. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Sexual abuse / harassment won't go away because we blindly trust every person who posts something on social media. Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
Making sure they know their rights, know when and how to prosecute offenders is important, because this way the actual abusers face the consequences of their actions, land behind bars or at the very least are prosecuted (and the more cases there are the more attention they will get as part of a systemic issue). It doesn't mean no other actions should be taken to make people as safe as possible - everywhere, everyone, under all circumstances. If people in the US are sentenced based on testimony of a single person and nothing else then I'd say maybe it's not the best judiciary system in the world and perhaps needs an overhaul. That statement is REALLY fucked up, dude. Putting the spot on the victim and not the offender... So I guess when we talk about gun victims, we should educate people on recognizing and avoiding the shootings, right? That's where we should put our efforts. And educating people to recognize drunks driving, so they can avoid them?. Putting the effort on recognizing, avoiding and handling the offender... not in trying to avoid him/her becoming one, or outing them before they repeat the crime or when they do it. And sexual abuse/harassment won't go away because we are human beings: people with any sort of power (physical, social, etc.) tend to use it to take advantage of others for their own benefit. Not because of fucking social media... I really hope you are trolling or something, because jesus christ if that's not the case... Get your shit together... You are greatly over-reacting to that statement. I will try to explain better what the poster means: Educating women (all people, really) on how to recognize, avoid and handle potential abuse / harassment is crucial.
First off: 1. I'm confident that the poster understands their are times where the victim is physically overwhelmed by the other person and has no choice in whatever goes down. 2. This is not a gun victim where there is always a chance of imminent death. The post is trying to say in situations like "A person cornered me in a club and started rubbing themselves on me. I felt so scared that I let the person continue until they we bored/finished and left me there". There is quality education that can be done to help avoid, prevent, or escape that situation. In that situation, the victim is not powerless and without options. With training we can empower the victim. I am in no way the qualified person to educate anyone on the ways to handle yourself, but I've always had my own checklist to help me stay out of trouble and I'm cautious even as a 6'3 230lb male. This is specific to the scenario I put above. 1. Go out with others 2. Make sure you and the others check in with each other periodically 3. Stay in public spots where you can scream and yell for help 4. Bring mace The above are all preventative measures that help you avoid situations that could happen. 5. Call 911 immediately if no one is there to help you 6. etc. There are obviously an infinite number of scenarios like the ones where someone drunk crawls into your bed. If that makes you uncomfortable, hopefully you can be educated how to calmly remove that person and if not, immediately find someone for help. But the whole point is, how can you know how to handle this without real life experience or elders taking the time to teach you how to handle the world as best as possible. I'm really disappointed by this response, BD. Victims of rape are scarred for life and many end up dead due to depression and suicide; our response shouldn't be to educate them on how to minimize the scarring but to put barriers in place to prevent these things from happening in the first place. Hannah Gadsby says, "We are not preparing our children..." in her newest show, Douglass, in reference to how we raise boys and girls in the social norm. Society often tells girls that they need to be careful, that they need to avoid dressing provocatively, that they need to follow guidelines for safety, whereas we generally just go, "oh welp, boys will be boys!" when we (don't) educate our boys. We should not be asking ourselves why so many women end up putting themselves in dangerous situations and instead be asking ourselves why those dangerous situations exist in the first place. If testosterone is a precursor to rape, then all men would be rapists. But it's not because rape is not a biological need, it's a learned behavior which has roots in misogyny and a disregard for other people's feelings. We breed men to be sociopathic sex machines and then blame women for it, and that's not okay. Men have the privilege, men have the power (socially, economically, and physically). The ball is in their court to act in good faith, educate themselves, make others feel comfortable, and ask for consent. Suggesting that we educate women when we already do is redundant and ignores the fact that the onus is on men to provide safe environments for women to not get raped in. (BTW, I just want to make it clear to everyone that I am advocating specifically for women abused by men because it is by far the most common scenario and because there is an inherent power dynamic that dominates that relationship. Abuse and other sexual misconduct occurs between all genders and even sometimes with women taking advantage of men and is just as reprehensible. Like I said, this isn't a hormone thing, it's a learned behavior, and it's inexcuseable no matter who it is.) Your whole state of mind is so wrong. When i was bullied at elementary school when i was a kid because i was small, my dad didnt go to their parents to tell them how i got bullied. No, he put me on Karate to give me self confidence and be able to protect myself. I can tell you 1 thing, just the confidence i got from those lessons was enough to stop those people from bullying me. Yes i had some fights but that was normal in my youth. You make it sound like woman are some 2nd degree humans which cant protect themselves and YOU need to protect them. No, education and warning them from certain situations will actually EMPOWER those woman hugely. You can't chance the world bro. You have to learn how to deal with the world. This triggers me so hard, especially as a teacher who sees this shit every week in school. This whole idea that abuse/ bullying/ assault/ harassment/ hate is really just tough love, and if you can't get over it then it's your fault, is some epic victim-blaming bullshit. That's not how power dynamics work. That's not how privilege works. It's cool you learned karate, but it'd be even cooler if we lived in a society that unified against people who tried to fuck over other people. Well said, I'm trying to teach my kid to not let negativity affect him, stand up for those who can't and be positive. It is all so complicated, and learning "karate" only works if the bully's are not. It would be such a better world if everyone just had the self confidence to not try to make themselves feel better by physically or emotionally picking on others. And with women it is even harder, I can think of at least 2 professional MMA women who have been victims of domestic abuse. They can clearly take care of themselves, but size and strength matter a ton and more than technique no matter what movies people have watched. It is completely understandable why women feel so unsafe when they are alone (even if they are not but feel it because no one is helping them) and how much worse it becomes when the their is the physical power difference and the position power. TLDR: It is great to teach yourself and those around you self confidence and self defense. But it is better to work together to make the bullies the outcasts and not the bullied. Cultural change is way harder but will actually make it better for the next generation.
Physical power is not necessary the reason of these abuses who don't generally happen because of strenght alone, it's way more complicated than that. Rape/abuse generally happen with people the victim know, with friends, bf, former bfs ext with some form of alienations other than physical.
And well, we are in capitalist societies when we learn that our desir must be filled right now and the desir/need of the other don't matter so...
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Russian Federation145 Posts
The world has gone mad with sexual abuse, black lives matter and other shit
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On June 25 2020 00:31 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 23:49 PengWin_SC wrote:
Hi guys. For the people treating this thread as high school debate team practice by shouting contrarian points into people's faces just to be cool and edgy, don't bother. I'm just here to make one post and disappear into the sunset, do with it what you will. Side note, I've also not read the last 3 pages because it's just become a repeat, so if I missed something, sorry.
I am profoundly disappointed with the reaction by the majority of the community here on TL. It's incredible to me how so many of you have decided to willfully ignore so many aspects of this and call people attention seekers. If you are doing this, especially about the women, you are misogynists. You may not realize it, and you may not intend to be, but you are misogynists. Somebody earlier made a GREAT fucking point. We have a dozen people in this thread screaming from the rooftops about the Rapid accusations and how THERE IS NO PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF, and yet you have no issue with Dario/Top's accusations? Let's break it down:
Rapid has three accusers that I have seen. Gon has two accusers that I have seen. The amount of evidence presented against both is equal. And all of you are dogpiling onto the one who is being accused by women, and not the one accused by men. I wonder why.
I understand how somebody who is uneducated can default to the "where is the proof, innocent until proven guilty" mindset, but it really shouldn't take more than five minutes of education to understand why that isn't a very reasonable stance to have on this issue. YES men are falsly accused sometimes, but it is far, far less common. I find it fucking hilarious that someone earlier in this thread was implying that since there are no statistics on it, how can we possibly know if it's more or less common? Come on, you don't actually believe that. I have no statistical evidence that the majority of you in this thread do not in fact suck horse dicks, so for all we know, the majority of you may well be deepthroating some equine dong on your weekends. There's no statistics on it so how can we know?
People have mostly ignored my post here because I didn't name names, making it okay. I want to be clear in saying that the guy in my story is no longer in the scene. IF HE WAS, I would have named names despite having no proof because, as has been mentioned once or twice here, this is not solely about justice, this is also about protecting potential future victims. If I had the choice to take a couple dozen internet assholes harassing me in exchange for making members of the community safer on the whole, that's a shit situation but yeah I'd take it. The same is true for these women. Addressing the argument of "attention seeking," that implies that the women have something to gain from making this post, so let's address that.
Theresa has been working in esports for years and is well regarded. She does not need attention. Her corroborating these stories does NOTHING for her except exposes her to potential negatives. She is not an aspiring streamer, nor would some small amount of Twitter clout do anything for her.
Ykie I do not know personally, but she's an occasional caster for IeSF, an organization where Rapid is a staple caster. As somebody who has plenty of casting experience, if an organization's main caster says they won't work with X person, that person won't be hired. As a broadcasting company, you don't want to pair two people who have bad chemistry, so this hiring decision makes sense. So yes, Rapid does have a power discrepancy here as he is likely capable of harming her career prospects. Therefore, her coming forward here also has the potential to harm career prospects should she ever want to cast with IeSF again. She is not a streamer, so here again I don't see what some extra followers actually does for her. She does not benefit from this "attention seeking."
I do not know Naomi personally, but she has now been corroborated by two people who have no connection to her and have nothing to gain by coming forward. This should be more than enough to tentatively believe her until Rapid comes out with a response at the very least.
People coming forward is incredibly important for multiple reasons. Protecting potential future victims is a major consideration, but also to pain a larger picture of the harassment and abuse in the scene so that we can work, as a collective, to better our space. There are a dozen stories that I know of out there from the SC2 community that still have not been told. People coming forward is a very important first step in helping victims feel comfortable in stepping forward.
I know that this has been a rambly, not too well put together post, and I know that some of you are set in your minds, but I implore you to please consider this:
You don't have to harass the accused. Nobody is pushing for that. You don't even have to be clamoring for consequences. All that you need to do is be open minded, listen, and be introspective. There is a big difference between jumping on the hate train and thinking "Damn, I'm sorry that person feels that way." Just understand that when you immediately jump to attacking the act of speaking out, you are part of the problem.
And as a final addendum: Even some of you who haven't outright specified it, be honest with yourselves. Your expectation is forensic evidence, which even in the case of full on actual rape is not guaranteed to exist, but especially with some of the less extreme cases. Let's take the Eleine story, what evidence do you actually expect her to have? A guy followed her back to her hotel, attempted but failed to rape her, and then left. Does it make it okay just because he didn't actually succeed in raping her and thus leave forensic evidence? Ask yourself that, and reflect on whether that is, in fact, the fair standard you believe it to be.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk, support victims, and for the depressingly huge number of people in this thread who have contributed posts that frankly disgust me, fucking do better. You make many good points here, thanks for writing this. But I don't get how you've came to believe that a MAJORITY of people on TL have a bad reaction to this? Reading this thread, I have the feeling that a majority of posters show an amount of understanding and solidarity far greater than what you get an virtually any internet forum. Most people are very concerned with what these stories reveal about the SC scene and are appaled at what some people have been subjected to. It rather seems to me that it is a minority of posters who keep repeating the same lame points as well as directly malicious comments, while another group ask some relevant questions. I have been proud of how SC as a community, both on TL and Twitter, have reacted to the stories coming out. Never forget that internet trolls always seem to be in much larger numbers than they actually are.
As mentioned by Neb and a few others, I continue to be pleasantly surprised by this thread (and TL in general), particularly by comparison with similar kinds of threads from back in the SC2 heyday.
Edit: also, I see you there Packrat, nice to see you 
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28090 Posts
On June 25 2020 00:15 Ronin2011 wrote:
Am I getting something wrong out of the Rapid situation?
The girl that said those things about him, didn't tell him once to stop when he send her dikpix, but instead she answered back to all the things concerned by Reid.
And then when, he told her he masturbated for her, she felt insulted and blocked him.
Should Pamela Anderson feel sexually abused that I had masturbated for her, me and some million more men?
Pamela Anderson intentionally puts out material for people to get off to. That was literally her career for many years.
The girl in rapids situation never asked for any of this. She also shut him down immediately after the dick pic.
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On June 25 2020 00:40 linestein wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:22 packrat386 wrote:On June 25 2020 00:11 linestein wrote:Personally I think the accuser Naomi is Faust. Consider these images: + Show Spoiler +If the accuser Naomi isn't even a real person then the evidence against RAPiD isn't very strong. These images from Discord are my best reply to what seems to be character defamation in this TwitLonger post. https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev Well the account that made the tweet was created and active since 2015, and also tied to an amateur starcraft II player with verified results. It'd be one hell of a long con. What do you think of the Spoilered images? I don't imagine Naomi enjoys talking dirty with Faust, but then has a problem with RAPiD. Also, we haven't really verified much about Naomi's identity. Anyone can create a relatively anonymous, inactive account and leave it there.
I think the spoilered images are irrelevant. The twitter account has 115k tweets over 5 years and 1k followers, including people who seem to know her personally. Her identity is also linked to a liqupedia page with verified results over the course of several years. Given that, the obvious conclusion is that it is a real person.
EDIT: I see you too farva. Been a while, but good to see you too
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On June 25 2020 00:43 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
The world has gone mad with sexual abuse, black lives matter and other shit
The world was always mad.
We're just waking up to it.
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I'm cross posting what I said in the Grant-specific thread from liquiddota.
On June 25 2020 00:02 Oukka wrote:This has been a really hard couple of days reading this stuff emerging. I guess I've been naïve, possibly and probably willingly, believing that for some reason the esports and streaming communities would have been better than this. I can just that hope people who have been victims of harassment and assaults feel that they can bring up these events and do not have to repress them and pretend that they never happened. From there it should be possible for all of us to be more aware and able to react faster and weed out inappropriate behaviour when we encounter it. Grant case specific stuff in the spoilers + Show Spoiler +
I feel like the whole discussion of drugged vs drunk is completely missing the point. Yes it is the frame in which these cases have been (and will be) framed in courts, but that is a feature of the current legislation and practice, not some absolute truth. My problem is that someone who was in a vulnerable state was taken advantage of, bluntly there was no consent to sex or sexual acts. If someone doesn't say, yes OR IS NOT CAPABLE OF SAYING YES, it isn't consent.
It is luckily not for me or other random internet forum goers to decide whether a crime happened or not, and if so what it was, but at the very least I'd like to say that moral compasses should be pointing firmly towards "WRONG" in this case.
Subsequently we can all individually try to learn from this, first of all make sure that our own behaviour isn't inappropriate and feeding into a culture of this kind of toxicity, but also try to call it out and step in when it occurs around us.
All this stuff of "no evidence, didn't happen" or "educate the victims" seems to miss a common factor, namely empathy. There is already several good posts in this thread about how these allegations are likely to be only a tip of the iceberg, and that we shouldn't discourage people from speaking up by setting a bar of forensic evidence to come forward with their accounts. I just hope the prevailing reaction will be of that of empathy and that the answer will be a collective determination to get rid of this type of behaviour in the scene.
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On June 25 2020 00:45 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:40 linestein wrote:On June 25 2020 00:22 packrat386 wrote:On June 25 2020 00:11 linestein wrote:Personally I think the accuser Naomi is Faust. Consider these images: + Show Spoiler +If the accuser Naomi isn't even a real person then the evidence against RAPiD isn't very strong. These images from Discord are my best reply to what seems to be character defamation in this TwitLonger post. https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev Well the account that made the tweet was created and active since 2015, and also tied to an amateur starcraft II player with verified results. It'd be one hell of a long con. What do you think of the Spoilered images? I don't imagine Naomi enjoys talking dirty with Faust, but then has a problem with RAPiD. Also, we haven't really verified much about Naomi's identity. Anyone can create a relatively anonymous, inactive account and leave it there. I think the spoilered images are irrelevant. The twitter account has 115k tweets over 5 years and 1k followers, including people who seem to know her personally. Her identity is also linked to a liqupedia page with verified results over the course of several years. Given that, the obvious conclusion is that it is a real person. EDIT: I see you too farva. Been a while, but good to see you too
So that Naomi is not this Naomi?
+ Show Spoiler +
This Discord interaction just goes on and on. It's happening in FBW, which is the premier Remastered Discord. Are there two different Naomi who both play Brood War and SC2?
Personally, I find it hard to believe as well, given the amount of Twitter actions taken by the Liquipedia Naomi. On the other hand, the Foreign Brood War community isn't very large. How many SC2 + BW players answer to the name Naomi?
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On June 25 2020 00:44 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:15 Ronin2011 wrote:
Am I getting something wrong out of the Rapid situation?
The girl that said those things about him, didn't tell him once to stop when he send her dikpix, but instead she answered back to all the things concerned by Reid.
And then when, he told her he masturbated for her, she felt insulted and blocked him.
Should Pamela Anderson feel sexually abused that I had masturbated for her, me and some million more men? Pamela Anderson intentionally puts out material for people to get off to. That was literally her career for many years. The girl in rapids situation never asked for any of this. She also shut him down immediately after the dick pic.
Perhaps pedantic but you probably shouldn't send dick pics to Pamela Anderson either
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On June 25 2020 00:54 Oukka wrote:I'm cross posting what I said in the Grant-specific thread from liquiddota. Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:02 Oukka wrote:This has been a really hard couple of days reading this stuff emerging. I guess I've been naïve, possibly and probably willingly, believing that for some reason the esports and streaming communities would have been better than this. I can just that hope people who have been victims of harassment and assaults feel that they can bring up these events and do not have to repress them and pretend that they never happened. From there it should be possible for all of us to be more aware and able to react faster and weed out inappropriate behaviour when we encounter it. Grant case specific stuff in the spoilers + Show Spoiler +
I feel like the whole discussion of drugged vs drunk is completely missing the point. Yes it is the frame in which these cases have been (and will be) framed in courts, but that is a feature of the current legislation and practice, not some absolute truth. My problem is that someone who was in a vulnerable state was taken advantage of, bluntly there was no consent to sex or sexual acts. If someone doesn't say, yes OR IS NOT CAPABLE OF SAYING YES, it isn't consent.
It is luckily not for me or other random internet forum goers to decide whether a crime happened or not, and if so what it was, but at the very least I'd like to say that moral compasses should be pointing firmly towards "WRONG" in this case.
Subsequently we can all individually try to learn from this, first of all make sure that our own behaviour isn't inappropriate and feeding into a culture of this kind of toxicity, but also try to call it out and step in when it occurs around us. All this stuff of "no evidence, didn't happen" or "educate the victims" seems to miss a common factor, namely empathy. There is already several good posts in this thread about how these allegations are likely to be only a tip of the iceberg, and that we shouldn't discourage people from speaking up by setting a bar of forensic evidence to come forward with their accounts. I just hope the prevailing reaction will be of that of empathy and that the answer will be a collective determination to get rid of this type of behaviour in the scene.
I think there's too little talk of actual steps that can be taken to ensure the scene is better able to get rid of problem people.
Examples:
-Companies involved in pro gaming should have specific sexual harassment policies/procedures.
-They should be able to demonstrate the effectiveness of said policies.
-Anonymized Statistics should be released yearly about the number of sexual harassment claims on a company by company basis..
-Companies should offer specific support to women in gaming (This will enrage the FOMO incels, but more women in gaming is good, and having official, funded support networks that are able to hear their concerns and react would help)
There's probably better stuff we could do, this is just off the top of my head.
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28090 Posts
On June 25 2020 00:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:44 TheEmulator wrote:On June 25 2020 00:15 Ronin2011 wrote:
Am I getting something wrong out of the Rapid situation?
The girl that said those things about him, didn't tell him once to stop when he send her dikpix, but instead she answered back to all the things concerned by Reid.
And then when, he told her he masturbated for her, she felt insulted and blocked him.
Should Pamela Anderson feel sexually abused that I had masturbated for her, me and some million more men? Pamela Anderson intentionally puts out material for people to get off to. That was literally her career for many years. The girl in rapids situation never asked for any of this. She also shut him down immediately after the dick pic. Perhaps pedantic but you probably shouldn't send dick pics to Pamela Anderson either
Oh of course. I just meant to imply she’s probably aware and fine with the idea that people masturbate to her as she puts the material out on her own. The fact that rapid masturbated to a girl that had no idea it was happening is wrong on every level.
Reminder that I was replying to his last statement which was specifically about masturbation.
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On June 25 2020 00:43 EEk1TwEEk wrote:
The world has gone mad with sexual abuse, black lives matter and other shit
Wait, what? Elaborate.
On June 25 2020 00:34 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2020 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 00:17 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 25 2020 00:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 00:06 Rainmansc wrote:On June 25 2020 00:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 25 2020 00:03 Rainmansc wrote:On June 24 2020 23:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 23:53 Rainmansc wrote:On June 24 2020 23:37 EsportsJohn wrote:
[quote]
I'm really disappointed by this response, BD. Victims of rape are scarred for life and many end up dead due to depression and suicide; our response shouldn't be to educate them on how to minimize the scarring but to put barriers in place to prevent these things from happening in the first place.
Hannah Gadsby says, "We are not preparing our children..." in her newest show, Douglass, in reference to how we raise boys and girls in the social norm. Society often tells girls that they need to be careful, that they need to avoid dressing provocatively, that they need to follow guidelines for safety, whereas we generally just go, "oh welp, boys will be boys!" when we (don't) educate our boys. We should not be asking ourselves why so many women end up putting themselves in dangerous situations and instead be asking ourselves why those dangerous situations exist in the first place. If testosterone is a precursor to rape, then all men would be rapists. But it's not because rape is not a biological need, it's a learned behavior which has roots in misogyny and a disregard for other people's feelings. We breed men to be sociopathic sex machines and then blame women for it, and that's not okay.
Men have the privilege, men have the power (socially, economically, and physically). The ball is in their court to act in good faith, educate themselves, make others feel comfortable, and ask for consent. Suggesting that we educate women when we already do is redundant and ignores the fact that the onus is on men to provide safe environments for women to not get raped in.
(BTW, I just want to make it clear to everyone that I am advocating specifically for women abused by men because it is by far the most common scenario and because there is an inherent power dynamic that dominates that relationship. Abuse and other sexual misconduct occurs between all genders and even sometimes with women taking advantage of men and is just as reprehensible. Like I said, this isn't a hormone thing, it's a learned behavior, and it's inexcuseable no matter who it is.)
Your whole state of mind is so wrong. When i was bullied at elementary school when i was a kid because i was small, my dad didnt go to their parents to tell them how i got bullied. No, he put me on Karate to give me self confidence and be able to protect myself. I can tell you 1 thing, just the confidence i got from those lessons was enough to stop those people from bullying me. Yes i had some fights but that was normal in my youth. You make it sound like woman are some 2nd degree humans which cant protect themselves and YOU need to protect them. No, education and warning them from certain situations will actually EMPOWER those woman hugely. You can't chance the world bro. You have to learn how to deal with the world. This triggers me so hard, especially as a teacher who sees this shit every week in school. This whole idea that abuse/ bullying/ assault/ harassment/ hate is really just tough love, and if you can't get over it then it's your fault, is some epic victim-blaming bullshit. That's not how power dynamics work. That's not how privilege works. It's cool you learned karate, but it'd be even cooler if we lived in a society that unified against people who tried to fuck over other people. Ofcourse it is but thats not the reality. The reality is that things like this happen and denying that is just putting your head in the sand. Thats why you should give people tools to deal with these situations. There is a difference between a woman having a rape whistle and blaming a woman for instigating her own rape. And you talk about Strawmans... You're victim-blaming. Whether it's "you didn't know karate so you deserved it; that's life" or "you shouldn't have been wearing such a short dress so you deserved it; that's life", it's the same thing. There's a fine line between victim blaming and positive action sometimes. The police put up billboards in Manchester a few years ago reminding people to lock their houses when they weren't at home. That's sound advice, but it COULD be portrayed as victim blaming. I think with sexual crime there's a added *something* that makes the victim blaming angle more priority, but i'm not sure what that is. Maybe its the personal, traumatic nature of the crimes. I'm detached from the problem so I don't 'get it' from a victims POV, but from a logical POV the situations are similar. The question is, is it just a matter of language (ie say the same thing about education without inferring that women are at fault for not being educated in whatever it is you want to educate them in), or is there no way of widely implementing anything that 'trains' or coaches people on how to deal with this stuff without it being seen as 'victim blaming'? Is even the suggestion that the victims could be mroe empowered victim blaming in itself? I don't think its as cut and dry as all that. Still, none of that takes away from the fact that even having this discussion is progress, even if alot of regressive views are being aired. I don't mind the police putting up billboards. I would mind if the police blamed the victims, whether or not they actually locked their houses. The idea of "Well, did you actually expect *not* to be robbed? I mean, your door wasn't locked!" is messed up. I'm going to lock my door as a deterrent (which may or may not really just be a placebo anyway, since if someone wants to get into my house they still could break a window, smash down the door, etc.), but society shouldn't be pointing the finger at the victim. I should have a reasonable expectation to not be robbed, similar to how I should have a reasonable expectation to not be raped or beaten up. If those reasonable expectations are gone, then the society isn't functioning in a way that provides a good level of safety and security for the inhabitants. I genuinely don't think rainman at any point inferred that it is the victims fault the crime was perpetrated. He's saying the victim could have been better prepared for the crime to take place, if we as a society spent more time preparing people against this kind of thing. I think you made the leap from that to 'its the victims fault that they are a victim' which I can understand, but I think is wrong, and also counterproductive. Sometimes as a society we have to bite the bullet and accept that bad things like rape and sexual harassment WILL continue to happen, and try our best to make it so individuals can deal with that when it does happen. It doesn't mean we shouldn't also attack the problem from the POV that every rape is the rapists fault, but we should also admit that there's things we can do better. Maybe people should not put the spot on either the victim or the offender, but society as a whole, and that's where the 'education' angle comes in.
I think the particular quotes of his that led me to believe he meant that are "just the confidence i got from those lessons was enough to stop those people from bullying me" and "You have to learn how to deal with the world." These seem, to me, that he thinks that his experience is generalizable and that it's up to the individual to either have or not have those experiences where they end up as victims.
I also think that we could do a much better job of addressing sexual harassment and rape, so that the kind of "meh, it's gonna happen to some people" would be about a much, much smaller number of people.
"and try our best to make it so individuals can deal with that when it does happen."
I agree with this. We should have communities who unify behind these victims, and we should do what we can to lessen the trauma the victims feel, and we should make sure that victims don't define themselves solely by these tragedies. I find any sort of hinting at "Just man up and fix the problem yourself" to be antithetical towards these solutions, and very myopic.
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So now it's ok to publicly say that I wish to never hear Rapid cast anymore? Used to just be because I disliked his castings but I was getting so much shit to say that after he was starting to cast more. Good riddance and this creepy shit has to stop, also.
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On June 25 2020 00:15 Ronin2011 wrote:
Am I getting something wrong out of the Rapid situation?
The girl that said those things about him, didn't tell him once to stop when he send her dikpix, but instead she answered back to all the things concerned by Reid.
And then when, he told her he masturbated for her, she felt insulted and blocked him.
Should Pamela Anderson feel sexually abused that I had masturbated for her, me and some million more men?
Sending an unwanted dickpick is sexual harassment.
No questions here
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On June 25 2020 01:09 JimmiC wrote:
On top of that it is never going to work, it absolutely horrible strategy. Even Howard Stern how stupid it is to send dick pics, I have yet to hear a single time when someone sent a unwanted dick pic and it went well for them.
So don't do it because it is sexual harassment, and if you don't care about that, don't do it because it will never work.
Yeah until recently I thought it's a meme that guys send dickpicks because why would you ever do that?
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