EPT[Interview] Lambo calls it as he sees it, again - Page 3
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25563 Posts
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Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
On February 16 2020 17:51 Shathe wrote: Dark uses every unit in the zerg arsenal, he has super mechanics and unpredictable strategys. Lambo should learn a lot from him well said. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On February 16 2020 17:51 Shathe wrote: Dark uses every unit in the zerg arsenal, he has super mechanics and unpredictable strategys. Lambo should learn a lot from him. But in the end it comes down to talent. It s realy not that simple. Talent is quite a big factor in SC2 like in any other sports. But not the only one and probably not even the biggest one. Dark is defnatly more than just raw talent. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On February 16 2020 18:55 dbRic1203 wrote: It s realy not that simple. Talent is quite a big factor in SC2 like in any other sports. But not the only one and probably not even the biggest one. Dark is defnatly more than just raw talent. Dark is a stronger player than Lambo, that's for sure. However, Lambo criticizes the way Dark plays ZvZ, not his overall playstyle; rightfully so, considering that Dark's victory over Reynor is the only truly impactful ZvZ he has won, as opposed to multiple failures(only in 2019: WESG against Serral, GSL vs the World vs Elazer, Code S S3 against Rogue). | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On February 15 2020 06:40 Shuffleblade wrote: I disagree partly with this sentiment, it is actually a very standard way to play starcraft 2. Makings plays or builds that doesn't work if your opponent plays perfectly, this can be said about basically any build and any attack/harassment. BEcause the game is balanced around there being ways to defend or counter everything, there is the choice to simply macro to your perfect end game army but that rarely happens. 2 base push, doesn't work if you opponent scouts perfectly and defends. Orace/banshee/DT/and-so-on puts you behind if the opponent scouts and reacts perfectly. As you play starcraft 2 you will always make mistakes and any play you make reliies in some way on you opponent making a mistake to be successful unless you are already far enough ahead to win on pure supply/tech advantage. Another dimension I feel we talk too little about is how the way you play in one series effects your next series. Dark playing the way he plays puts fear into any future opponent making them more prone to play more defensive simply because of the bold plays Dark does. Win or lose this series, the next time Dark plays he will already have an advantage that players like Lambo lacks. Standard way to play sc2, ofc. What I'm trying to say is I think Dark overdoes it when he starts using genuinely bad builds with the hope of the opponent screwing up. I mentioned the Stats game because Stats literally saw nothing and had no idea what was happening, and yet he still could've held it easily if he didn't literally move all his sentries out into the open at the exact same time Dark attacked with the ling bane. This was not a "if Stats plays perfectly, Dark is behind". It's more of a "Dark can only win in this situation if Stats screws up majorly, and Stats is not a guy that often screws up that bad". I understand there's a merit to having range and giving the opponent the knowledge that you can do these "bad builds" but I'm not alone in thinking Dark can take it too far sometimes and give too much power to your opponent to win the game with any decent play, considering how good he is. I'm a big fan of Dark's playstyle in general and any sort of play style that puts pressure on your opponent and forces reactive play. I just think he can weed out some of the truly awful builds and mix in more predictable, but higher percentage aggression. In reality, I just really hate that ZvP ling bane build, it really is soooo bad. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
The two Major things he adressed were: 1. He was suprised, that we re having a discussion here and Don t just write "what an idiot" and Flame around. So I gues that s a Plus, that we re a less toxic comunity than he expected :D 2. He said, that people misunderstand him. When he says, that Koreans play bad he doesn t mean all ins or taking risks. He means builds that aren t optimal, like building evo chambers to late (like 5-10seconds for no reason), so they re behind in upgrades or an Ling attack that could have hit 5s earlier or trying to move a spine down a ramp, that is blocked with 2 queens. He says these obvious mistakes, that are easily fixable are the reason why the Koreans can lose to mechanical inferior Players quote easily. Those are mistakes that could make the difference between low- mid gm and pro Player between similar execution and are way to comon in kr zvz. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On February 17 2020 15:41 dbRic1203 wrote: Lambo went over this thread in his stream yesterday. The two Major things he adressed were: 1. He was suprised, that we re having a discussion here and Don t just write "what an idiot" and Flame around. So I gues that s a Plus, that we re a less toxic comunity than he expected :D 2. He said, that people misunderstand him. When he says, that Koreans play bad he doesn t mean all ins or taking risks. He means builds that aren t optimal, like building evo chambers to late (like 5-10seconds for no reason), so they re behind in upgrades or an Ling attack that could have hit 5s earlier or trying to move a spine down a ramp, that is blocked with 2 queens. He says these obvious mistakes, that are easily fixable are the reason why the Koreans can lose to mechanical inferior Players quote easily. Those are mistakes that could make the difference between low- mid gm and pro Player between similar execution and are way to comon in kr zvz. Its fun to hear his reactions but this seems like bullshit? They basically just play incorrect StarCraft very often, in ZvZ. For example, if you ling-bane all-in, that should never work at a higher level. This is not something where you can say "hey my micro is better than my opponent, I will out-micro him." That doesn't actually work. It's up to your opponent if you win or not. It's just up to your opponent if they make mistakes—that's just what they go for very often. So he says they play incorrect starcraft 2 because of the strategic build they choose. Note how he generalize and say ling-bane all ins should never work. He doesn't even specify a particular build just in general if you do any ling-bane allin you play starcraft 2 wrong. Somehow we misundertood him and what he meant was that korean zergs often makes mistakes and therefore they are bad at zvz? I just don't understand how his mind works, first he says they are play the game strategically wrong and then he turns around and says that they play strategically good but make too many mistakes. So which is it, is korean zergs strategically good but often makes mistakes or are they strategically poor and for example builds evo chambers late on purpose or make a time attack late on purpose as a strategic decisions? The things Lambo points out seems to be obvious mistakes (he even calls it that himself according to you) that the koreans probably know themselves as mistakes seconds after making them and not purposeful strategic choices. Edit: I mean if you Believe koreans makes simple mistakes too often, more often than foreign zergs I guess that could be correct but wouldn't that likely be a result of superior mechanics? I mean the more you focus on macro and multitask the more likely you will be to make mistakes, so the question is what is more important? To play slower but more meticulous and not make mistakes like Lambo says or play faster with stronger mechanics but be more prone to mistakes? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25563 Posts
On February 17 2020 18:09 Shuffleblade wrote: Its fun to hear his reactions but this seems like bullshit? So he says they play incorrect starcraft 2 because of the strategic build they choose. Note how he generalize and say ling-bane all ins should never work. He doesn't even specify a particular build just in general if you do any ling-bane allin you play starcraft 2 wrong. Somehow we misundertood him and what he meant was that korean zergs often makes mistakes and therefore they are bad at zvz? I just don't understand how his mind works, first he says they are play the game strategically wrong and then he turns around and says that they play strategically good but make too many mistakes. So which is it, is korean zergs strategically good but often makes mistakes or are they strategically poor and for example builds evo chambers late on purpose or make a time attack late on purpose as a strategic decisions? The things Lambo points out seems to be obvious mistakes (he even calls it that himself according to you) that the koreans probably know themselves as mistakes seconds after making them and not purposeful strategic choices. Edit: I mean if you Believe koreans makes simple mistakes too often, more often than foreign zergs I guess that could be correct but wouldn't that likely be a result of superior mechanics? I mean the more you focus on macro and multitask the more likely you will be to make mistakes, so the question is what is more important? To play slower but more meticulous and not make mistakes like Lambo says or play faster with stronger mechanics but be more prone to mistakes? It sounds quite baffling to me. His interview makes some sense to me but the stuff others have paraphrased from other sources like his Twitch really muddy the waters. If he’s, as I think he has, been saying that Koreans general ZvZ strategical style/approach isn’t as good as the Euros, but they’re superior mechanically so they have generally prospered that makes sense. Then Serral comes along who’s using the ‘superior style’ but also has the mechanics and has a great record. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On February 17 2020 18:09 Shuffleblade wrote: Its fun to hear his reactions but this seems like bullshit? So he says they play incorrect starcraft 2 because of the strategic build they choose. Note how he generalize and say ling-bane all ins should never work. He doesn't even specify a particular build just in general if you do any ling-bane allin you play starcraft 2 wrong. Sorry, my summary of his words was probably a bit unaccurate, I try to expalain it again. He isn t critising them for taking echambers to late, because of mistakes (to stick to that example) but for taking them to late every single time and always starting their +1 with over 100Gas floating. He critzies KR Zerg for not streamlining their builds. He says, that he tries to learn from them by analyzing their replays and does it A LOT. But he just sees inferior builds with better mechanics. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On February 17 2020 15:41 dbRic1203 wrote: Lambo went over this thread in his stream yesterday. The two Major things he adressed were: 1. He was suprised, that we re having a discussion here and Don t just write "what an idiot" and Flame around. So I gues that s a Plus, that we re a less toxic comunity than he expected :D 2. He said, that people misunderstand him. When he says, that Koreans play bad he doesn t mean all ins or taking risks. He means builds that aren t optimal, like building evo chambers to late (like 5-10seconds for no reason), so they re behind in upgrades or an Ling attack that could have hit 5s earlier or trying to move a spine down a ramp, that is blocked with 2 queens. He says these obvious mistakes, that are easily fixable are the reason why the Koreans can lose to mechanical inferior Players quote easily. Those are mistakes that could make the difference between low- mid gm and pro Player between similar execution and are way to comon in kr zvz. i don't completely buy what he's saying there. for one thing, one of his own examples was dark "making a bunch of lings and just attacking" at weird times in zvz where he said the defender has the advantage. if that's not talking about risky all-in builds then i don't know what it is. as for things like building "late evos", maybe he's right, but maybe if you asked a kr player about it they would have a reason for preferring their own build. i'd have to hear from both sides before taking one person's analysis as fact. i respect lambo as a player, but i also respect other pros enough to hear their arguments too | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 15 2020 09:48 Nakajin wrote: There hasn't been any real announcement, but the afreeca TL account confirmed they are happening, with a bit of luck the korean pros know the detail. Also I remember someone (I don't remember who so don't take it to seriously) saying that a lot of Koreans weren't really aware of the ESL open cup happening, not sure the communication has been great on that part. I hope something comes along soon for Korea, especially since we aren't hearing anything from the CTC and who knows how WESG is gonna happen at this point. I know, it's just that at this time it's probably the longest waiting time for the announcement of the GSL while Lambo is saying that under the new management it's way faster than before  Just a nab at that.On February 17 2020 18:09 Shuffleblade wrote: Its fun to hear his reactions but this seems like bullshit? So he says they play incorrect starcraft 2 because of the strategic build they choose. Note how he generalize and say ling-bane all ins should never work. He doesn't even specify a particular build just in general if you do any ling-bane allin you play starcraft 2 wrong. Somehow we misundertood him and what he meant was that korean zergs often makes mistakes and therefore they are bad at zvz? I just don't understand how his mind works, first he says they are play the game strategically wrong and then he turns around and says that they play strategically good but make too many mistakes. So which is it, is korean zergs strategically good but often makes mistakes or are they strategically poor and for example builds evo chambers late on purpose or make a time attack late on purpose as a strategic decisions? The things Lambo points out seems to be obvious mistakes (he even calls it that himself according to you) that the koreans probably know themselves as mistakes seconds after making them and not purposeful strategic choices. Edit: I mean if you Believe koreans makes simple mistakes too often, more often than foreign zergs I guess that could be correct but wouldn't that likely be a result of superior mechanics? I mean the more you focus on macro and multitask the more likely you will be to make mistakes, so the question is what is more important? To play slower but more meticulous and not make mistakes like Lambo says or play faster with stronger mechanics but be more prone to mistakes? That's back to the discussion about economics and speed of the game. Strategy --------------------------------------SC2--------- Mechanics Currently we're on the mechanics side, what Lambo says may be correct(I really don't know), Koreans may play strategically worse, but because LotV changes made strategic choices less impactful and mechanics more, it doesn't matter that much. Dark is mechanically so much stronger than Lambo that Lambo playing the right way doesn't matter as he will be picked apart by the pure mechanics. It's not a new thing, many foreigner v Koreans games can be summed by Koreans beating foreigners with their supperior mechanics. There are moments in SC2 where mechanics doesn't matter(e.g. if you don't have detection and DTs arrive) but in many situations mechanics solve the issue. It's similar to the Destiny's "Queens to master" series(or w/e it was called). | ||
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Elentos
55553 Posts
On February 18 2020 00:42 deacon.frost wrote: I know, it's just that at this time it's probably the longest waiting time for the announcement of the GSL while Lambo is saying that under the new management it's way faster than before Just a nab at that.The "new management" doesn't do the GSL arrangements, those are still in Blizzard's hand until things are finalized. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On February 15 2020 02:18 Elentos wrote: I mean, sOs' winrates in HotS when he won his world championships were actually insane. His offline winrates for HotS overall match Inno and exceed guys like soO and Zest by a distance. His fall from grace since LotV came out is pretty drastic. I think all those Proleague matches with very specific prep is the main reason | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 18 2020 01:04 neptunusfisk wrote: I think all those Proleague matches with very specific prep is the main reason Well, almost all the top players were in the proleague, so it affects everyone  | ||
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Legan
Finland426 Posts
If you choose to play aggressive strategies and play against them often, then you should be able to execute those strategies and responses near to optimal. Mistakes like wrong timings and reactions should not happen that often. If you delay an all-in 10s often then there should be some clear reason for it instead of being just a mistake. These mistakes should also cost you more when they happen often and people know that you are likely to play such strategies. Also, shorter games with more streamlined builds should not have much time for mistakes to happen or be forced. Not punishing these mistakes is on the opponent, but choosing to play these strategies and executing them without polishing them to "perfect" is at least an odd choice. Of course this is just another player perceiving other player choices from replays and VODs and there could be reasons that are not being discussed between players. Could be cool to have an interview from Dark now and have him comment about the perceived mistakes, but that could probably need to have both Lambo and Dark analysing a game at same time. | ||
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zestzorb
Thailand776 Posts
I understand Lambo's view on unoptimal ZvZ play, but actually it might be a good strategy for the superior zerg to go bane/ling all-in, if you take into account of other factors, such as fatigue and game length. | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
Because SERRAL is dominant, he somehow thinks it applies to HIMSELF as well... like he has a right to call Korean Zergs bad, because these OTHER players beat them, even though he himself cant.... He sounds like a pro player version of the people who lose to cheese or bad builds on ladder, then flame you for being " BAD", even though they just got owned..... Guys are right, he sounds like Idra..... I will give him credit though, his casting at Asus was among the best I've ever heard..... But come on, hes not even as good as Scarlett, lol | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6937 Posts
I mean, looking at Serrals ZvZ history vs Korean Zergs. Either Serrals mechanics are even better or he plays the game more optimal. My bet is on the latter | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
It reminds me of when Parting was able to get into a terran's base at HSC and was able to see just the one gas that basically guarantees a 3CC, yet when they asked him about it he paid no mind to it and basically said he doesn't know terran builds lol (and the casters went on to question why he didn't play greedy or go for double forge when he "knew" it was 3CC). Not completely relevant to the ZvZ thing but it was a funny moment when you realise that even our pro players aren't playing extremely nuanced a lot of the time. I'm sure Parting could've identified it as a 3CC build if he was just observing the game but it goes to show that when you're in-game, even the pros can do things that are "objectively" not optimal. Anyone at Lambo's level could analyse any zerg's game and pick out many "objective inefficiencies" in their play. That isn't him suggesting he's better than them or even that he could beat them. If that's what you take out of this interview, then you should probably drink some tea. As long as it's not personal attacks, it's refreshing to see open criticism/discussion of the best players . It's healthy for the growth of the overall skill level of sc2 if people aren't so blindly ignorant to the flaws that can constantly occur in high lvl sc2, especially since our casters aren't quite high enough level to be able to point them out themselves to the viewers, in every matchup. | ||
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