On February 15 2020 00:19 Charoisaur wrote: His comments on ZvZ remind me of IdrA who thought there's only one way to play the game and if someone wins differently "he won because he did something dumb"
Then you don't understand what he is saying. Lambo thinks eu zvz or let's say the standart approach is the best way to win games and he based its raisonning on Serral's success (+Elazer and other eu against korean this year). It's more like "he won despite doing something dumb". You can disagree for sure but it's already another subject. Idra had a different approach, it was more like "the ones who are winning with all in abuse the shitty design/balance of the game".
Part of what makes Dark so dangerous is the fact that he can go full baboon and make it work, but I do think he overdoes this concept a lot. For example, his ling bane build in ZvP is the epitome of "this is extremely shit but if i catch you off guard, you might die". His game vs Stats on Triton in Super Tournament 2 was a great example. Stats had literally everything available to hold the build despite not seeing it at all, and if he defended even remotely better, he is so far ahead. But then he moves in his army in the worse position for a secret and just insta loses a game where he had all the opportunities to win. Dark had zero control over this situation, he played it well but at the end of the day, he's banking on Stats making a mistake or a misread. It's a weird way to play sc2 when you give your opponent the ability to win the game and hope they can't take those opportunities.
Obviously, you should always do that to at least some extent to mix it up but I do think Dark takes it too far and goes for like extremely bad builds sometimes, rather than just standard aggression. Ofc, that does make him more unpredictable overall and in general, I'm always happy to see more stylistic differences between players of the same race. But it does feel like Dark has the potential to be way stronger than he is already if he cleaned up his repertoire of gimmicks.
On February 15 2020 06:08 blooblooblahblah wrote: Part of what makes Dark so dangerous is the fact that he can go full baboon and make it work, but I do think he overdoes this concept a lot. For example, his ling bane build in ZvP is the epitome of "this is extremely shit but if i catch you off guard, you might die". His game vs Stats on Triton in Super Tournament 2 was a great example. Stats had literally everything available to hold the build despite not seeing it at all, and if he defended even remotely better, he is so far ahead. But then he moves in his army in the worse position for a secret and just insta loses a game where he had all the opportunities to win. Dark had zero control over this situation, he played it well but at the end of the day, he's banking on Stats making a mistake or a misread. It's a weird way to play sc2 when you give your opponent the ability to win the game and hope they can't take those opportunities.
Obviously, you should always do that to at least some extent to mix it up but I do think Dark takes it too far and goes for like extremely bad builds sometimes, rather than just standard aggression. Ofc, that does make him more unpredictable overall and in general, I'm always happy to see more stylistic differences between players of the same race. But it does feel like Dark has the potential to be way stronger than he is already if he cleaned up his repertoire of gimmicks.
In a game without full knowledge it's actually pretty common - prime examples are hidden buildings or cheese builds. All it takes is to scout it and then it's easy to defend. You bet the game on the fact the opponent won't realise what build it is and/or scout it.
Dark(and for example sOs) are good at selling builds and winning via poker face.
It's the best way to play, IMO. Because if your opponent cannot tell what you're doing unless they're scouting the whole map furiously, then they're in a natural disadvantage, especially if they want to play the passive one.
I hate ZvZ and have no idea about the games, but from my view Dark has the better approach to the game. It's what killed IdrA and it's what was keeping Rain from having more titles until he learned that predictability is bad.
On February 15 2020 06:08 blooblooblahblah wrote: Dark had zero control over this situation, he played it well but at the end of the day, he's banking on Stats making a mistake or a misread. It's a weird way to play sc2 when you give your opponent the ability to win the game and hope they can't take those opportunities.
I disagree partly with this sentiment, it is actually a very standard way to play starcraft 2. Makings plays or builds that doesn't work if your opponent plays perfectly, this can be said about basically any build and any attack/harassment. BEcause the game is balanced around there being ways to defend or counter everything, there is the choice to simply macro to your perfect end game army but that rarely happens.
2 base push, doesn't work if you opponent scouts perfectly and defends. Orace/banshee/DT/and-so-on puts you behind if the opponent scouts and reacts perfectly.
As you play starcraft 2 you will always make mistakes and any play you make reliies in some way on you opponent making a mistake to be successful unless you are already far enough ahead to win on pure supply/tech advantage.
Another dimension I feel we talk too little about is how the way you play in one series effects your next series. Dark playing the way he plays puts fear into any future opponent making them more prone to play more defensive simply because of the bold plays Dark does. Win or lose this series, the next time Dark plays he will already have an advantage that players like Lambo lacks.
I definitely don't agree with everything Lambo says, but I do appreciate that he's actually willing to come forward and say it. Much better than super bland and noncommittal answers that sound like a politician's interview.
I mean, the worst part of Blizzard, the way they handled the WCS Circuit was that they announced everything super late. Before, it was basically impossible to plan a year. You couldn't plan any vacations because they would announce Challenger way too late, that kind of stuff. I can now ask Apollo when the qualifiers are, and he's probably going to have an answer for me, you know? I absolutely could ask [Blizzard people] before, but they usually wouldn't have an answer until very late.
Did I miss the GSL announcement? I get that the c-virus is the most important thing in Asia right now, but even announcement - 3 tournaments are planned if the situation allows them would be a real treat now. Like... how late this can be announced?
On February 15 2020 01:33 Poopi wrote: Lambo vision of how to play the game optimally reminds me of a Super Smash Bros Melee player "golden path" (IloD's Guide to Improvement for those interested).
It's also probably why his ultimate goal would be to beat Serral, and not Reynor, although Reynor had the best recent result at BlizzCon among foreigners ; since Serral almost always seek to play optimally, understanding what is thrown at him etc., whereas Reynor is a bit more raw / wild sometimes in his way to play the game (see Reynor vs PtitDrogo @ NationWars).
You forget that Serral, after losing a single series at BlizzCon, defeated Reynor on his way to HSC and Nation Wars titles. Lambo wants to beat Serral because Serral won much more and dominated much harder than Reynor; Serral is still the king, despite Reynor's rise in 2019.
Maru lost to sOs because he was too stubborn, sticking to proxies against the guy who probably helped him develop those builds, while he have easily won a more standard game being by far the superior player.
I liked this piece, overall I agree with Lambo. I would bet that at least some of those who can't stand Lambo because he openly gives voice to his opinions greatly appreciate similar attitudes in certain other players.
On February 15 2020 01:33 Poopi wrote: Lambo vision of how to play the game optimally reminds me of a Super Smash Bros Melee player "golden path" (IloD's Guide to Improvement for those interested).
It's also probably why his ultimate goal would be to beat Serral, and not Reynor, although Reynor had the best recent result at BlizzCon among foreigners ; since Serral almost always seek to play optimally, understanding what is thrown at him etc., whereas Reynor is a bit more raw / wild sometimes in his way to play the game (see Reynor vs PtitDrogo @ NationWars).
You forget that Serral, after losing a single series at BlizzCon, defeated Reynor on his way to HSC and Nation Wars titles. Lambo wants to beat Serral because Serral won much more and dominated much harder than Reynor; Serral is still the king, despite Reynor's rise in 2019.
Maru lost to sOs because he was too stubborn, sticking to proxies against the guy who probably helped him develop those builds, while he have easily won a more standard game being by far the superior player.
? Even when TvP wasn't as hard as in late 2018, Maru vs sOs was close. Being the superior player wouldn't allow Maru for an easy win in macrogames, TvP was horrible outside of proxies.
I still stand that Lambo probably prefers Serral stylistically compared to Reynor.
I mean, the worst part of Blizzard, the way they handled the WCS Circuit was that they announced everything super late. Before, it was basically impossible to plan a year. You couldn't plan any vacations because they would announce Challenger way too late, that kind of stuff. I can now ask Apollo when the qualifiers are, and he's probably going to have an answer for me, you know? I absolutely could ask [Blizzard people] before, but they usually wouldn't have an answer until very late.
Did I miss the GSL announcement? I get that the c-virus is the most important thing in Asia right now, but even announcement - 3 tournaments are planned if the situation allows them would be a real treat now. Like... how late this can be announced?
(if I missed it, then excuse my stupidity)
There hasn't been any real announcement, but the afreeca TL account confirmed they are happening, with a bit of luck the korean pros know the detail. Also I remember someone (I don't remember who so don't take it to seriously) saying that a lot of Koreans weren't really aware of the ESL open cup happening, not sure the communication has been great on that part.
I hope something comes along soon for Korea, especially since we aren't hearing anything from the CTC and who knows how WESG is gonna happen at this point.
On February 15 2020 01:33 Poopi wrote: Lambo vision of how to play the game optimally reminds me of a Super Smash Bros Melee player "golden path" (IloD's Guide to Improvement for those interested).
It's also probably why his ultimate goal would be to beat Serral, and not Reynor, although Reynor had the best recent result at BlizzCon among foreigners ; since Serral almost always seek to play optimally, understanding what is thrown at him etc., whereas Reynor is a bit more raw / wild sometimes in his way to play the game (see Reynor vs PtitDrogo @ NationWars).
You forget that Serral, after losing a single series at BlizzCon, defeated Reynor on his way to HSC and Nation Wars titles. Lambo wants to beat Serral because Serral won much more and dominated much harder than Reynor; Serral is still the king, despite Reynor's rise in 2019.
Maru lost to sOs because he was too stubborn, sticking to proxies against the guy who probably helped him develop those builds, while he have easily won a more standard game being by far the superior player.
? Even when TvP wasn't as hard as in late 2018, Maru vs sOs was close. Being the superior player wouldn't allow Maru for an easy win in macrogames, TvP was horrible outside of proxies.
I still stand that Lambo probably prefers Serral stylistically compared to Reynor.
Maru would have steamrolled sOs if he made smarter choices and didn't tilt(getting supply blocked in g3 that way...), I don't remember you addressing TvP as a "horrible matchup" in the introductory article you wrote about BlizzCon 2018.
Lambo's style is definitely more akin to Serral's, but that's not why he wants to beat Serral.
"Like, I wasn't too impressed with their strategic decisions. It doesn't mean ... when I say this, I don't mean they're [Korean Zergs] bad in ZvZ and I can beat them"
I am always happy when players are being open and state their opinions publicly without any constraints or fear of slack. That being said I dont like Lambos line of thoughts, its too messy and illogical.
I like Lambo for his bold statements. He may be wrong, he may be right. But at least he himself is convinced he's right, no nuances. I would call it confident rather then arrogant.
Unlike IdrA he does not try to blame his loses on the state of the game. His calling out the Korean Zergs on a sub-optimal gameplan is a direct consequence of the fact that it's a competitive game. Players are bound to have contrasting opinions on the best way to play. And that in turn gives us entertaining games.
I don't understand the flack he receives for voicing his opinion. If players were only allowed to voice their opinion if they could back it up by winning every game, it would be pretty quiet in these forums.
Great Interview, thanks for that. I like when players state their opinions openly and I would love to have more Interviews where players do so. That´s why i don´t understand people coming to a forum and call them arrogant or anything just because he has another opinion than them. It is actually possible to not agree with someone and still be respectful.
Like others here I, too, think that Darks unpredictability is something that makes him fearful and that makes it very hard to plan a series against him. Even if the things he does are bad from a players point of view, he makes it win, and that is what matters. Players like Lambo or Heromarine for example tend to say that their opponents are bad or play like shit if they do something unlogic, and they maybe right, but still they lose to things like that. And while i love both as players, I think they would boost their play if they started to be less predictable, even if Dark is overdoing it sometimes, it made him successful last year (but it made him also lose too often in the years before). In 2018 you could see that Serral understood there needs to be some unpredicability in his game if he wants to be the best and from then on he started to mix in all-ins in his series, and i believe that was an important thing that made him even scarier to play.
EPT
