EPTProposed changes for creep spread - Page 2
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LTCM
174 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote: Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc. Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet. Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively. | ||
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Kertorak
121 Posts
On November 30 2019 05:51 Vision_ wrote: Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/layEV4a.jpg) Linearity for Queens : 0.07 Linearity for Tumors : 0.2 I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three. Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game... Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... So were did you learn to not mark the x and y axis? What does it stand for? 700...? 70 number of creep tumors? It's normal to give a picture name/description if you want to share anything with it and not just for looking smart. | ||
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emperorofwild
87 Posts
Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame. | ||
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syndbg
43 Posts
On December 14 2019 13:05 Kertorak wrote: So were did you learn to not mark the x and y axis? What does it stand for? 700...? 70 number of creep tumors? It's normal to give a picture name/description if you want to share anything with it and not just for looking smart. Being an ass, without even being smart is even a sadder way to look smart. I actually tried to use my brain before writing this post and I'll explain that: X = gametime. 700? 7:00? Hard to figure out, eh? Y = tumours. Hard to notice the relativity of queens/tumours to the Y axis? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
On December 14 2019 11:57 Wombat_NI wrote: Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively. Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On December 15 2019 00:53 Hunta15 wrote: Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs. Doesn’t have to be a nerf to Zerg, other tools can be given to compensate. How many times has Warp Gate been nerfed over the years? Or bunker build times despite their now meme status. My point was that ultimately creep spread has improved hugely over the years, because it’s a mechanic that has a really high ceiling. Even mechanically decent low Masters players can basically use chronoboost and mules to vaguely close to their optimal level. Comparable Zergs will have garbage creep spread compared to better Zergs. It’s not that it’s outright ‘OP’ it’s that it’s a mechanic with a way higher ceiling than the other race’s, and players’ proficiency in using that mechanic is way, way beyond what used to happen. People talk about compositions being OP or whatever and neglect creep’s role. In previous eras where players hadn’t focused as much on creep you could pick apart certain compositions with multipronged harassment, now you’re trying to do that with a Zerg that has half the map covered in creep plus overlord coverage in the air space. Zerg is the reactive race that will also totally murder passivity, by design and a fundamental one I quite like. If you give the race too much information it makes it outright too powerful, hence this thread. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On December 14 2019 13:22 emperorofwild wrote: I propose one plan Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame. viper is unlocked by hive, so no, not the same building | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
On December 14 2019 13:22 emperorofwild wrote: I propose one plan Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame. What do you mean? Currently there are a few buildings that unlock more than one unit. Spawning pool - Zergling, Queen Banelings nest - Baneling Roach warren - Roach, Ravager Hydralisk den - Hydralisk Infestation pit - Infestor, Swarmhost Spire - Mutalisk, Corruptor Lurker den - Lurker Hive - Viper Greater spire - Broodlord Ultralisk cavern - Ultralisk 4 buildings unlock 2 units, while 6 buildings unlock 1 unit. Do you suggest that: Infestors should be unlocked by Hive, Queen's den, Ravager mound, and Corruptor roost should be new buildings? | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1449 Posts
On December 15 2019 20:13 Drfilip wrote: What do you mean? Currently there are a few buildings that unlock more than one unit. Spawning pool - Zergling, Queen Banelings nest - Baneling Roach warren - Roach, Ravager Hydralisk den - Hydralisk Infestation pit - Infestor, Swarmhost Spire - Mutalisk, Corruptor Lurker den - Lurker Hive - Viper Greater spire - Broodlord Ultralisk cavern - Ultralisk 4 buildings unlock 2 units, while 6 buildings unlock 1 unit. Do you suggest that: Infestors should be unlocked by Hive, Queen's den, Ravager mound, and Corruptor roost should be new buildings? Of course, and building for drones, larvas, building to unlock minimap and all except zerglings should be unlocked with Hive, or even add 1 more upgrade. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16835 Posts
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odysseus_ulysses
5 Posts
It would be a bit like removing the ability of medivacs to carry units. | ||
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Hunta15
United States81 Posts
On December 15 2019 03:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Doesn’t have to be a nerf to Zerg, other tools can be given to compensate. How many times has Warp Gate been nerfed over the years? Or bunker build times despite their now meme status. My point was that ultimately creep spread has improved hugely over the years, because it’s a mechanic that has a really high ceiling. Even mechanically decent low Masters players can basically use chronoboost and mules to vaguely close to their optimal level. Comparable Zergs will have garbage creep spread compared to better Zergs. It’s not that it’s outright ‘OP’ it’s that it’s a mechanic with a way higher ceiling than the other race’s, and players’ proficiency in using that mechanic is way, way beyond what used to happen. People talk about compositions being OP or whatever and neglect creep’s role. In previous eras where players hadn’t focused as much on creep you could pick apart certain compositions with multipronged harassment, now you’re trying to do that with a Zerg that has half the map covered in creep plus overlord coverage in the air space. Zerg is the reactive race that will also totally murder passivity, by design and a fundamental one I quite like. If you give the race too much information it makes it outright too powerful, hence this thread. Creep was already nerfed in the last patch: you can't cancel creep tumors anymore. Killing active creep tumors has a higher impact. Frankly you have no basis to want to nerf it. So I'll answer the question of why not nerf it? It doesn't need to be. | ||
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Vision_
844 Posts
On December 17 2019 06:09 Hunta15 wrote: Creep was already nerfed in the last patch: you can't cancel creep tumors anymore. Killing active creep tumors has a higher impact. Frankly you have no basis to want to nerf it. So I'll answer the question of why not nerf it? It doesn't need to be. I can answer why you need to nerf creep or something in relation with creep... A zergling (on creep) can cross a map as Ephemerion in about 15 seconds (with upgrade). In other hand a zergling in Starcraft : Brood war can cross the map in about 20 seconds (with upgrade too, in reality 21 seconds but i have count the border of the Ephemerion map) And this difference is exactly equal to the buff speed when a zergling is running on creep (+30%) Adding the fact as a zerg you can control the whole army and it becomes hell to hold on intensity of each new match in a row (Best of 5, 7 etc..)... The skill level of Terran players (which has always been promoted) is impacted along the game until the error occurs while zerg can avoid to take risks using creep tumors repetability (and saving his queens), ensuring to have enought awarness and time to defend. The idea developped by Wombat_NI is really full of good sense, From what i ve looked of replays from Serral, i can confirm the quality of Serral management concerning creep tumors. Saving lot of tumors allow him to use the 'cure spell' and this is not the only thing which make Serral better, but it is a part of it. I think Zergs doesn t take enought risks, and if you don t want to nerf creep cause you could be in trouble against Protoss, The question remains : why a race as Terran, which has best units in siege (tanks, mines, liberators) is not able to create a siege unless he s max out ? As it has been clearly said by Serral, Special, etc.. the Terran hasn t the right to make mistakes in his attacks, he s constantly under pressure, and only the most accomplished Terrans (Kor) with skills and mental training competition can struggle against Top Master Zergs. So why there s no siege lines before (the nearly) End game ? Why couldn t we build bunkers near your f***ing creep border in mid game ? Are we so powerless ? Aren t we the wallers in starcraft ? You can spend all your gas into banelings while in our bio army (in mid game always) we can t use gas efficiently ? Don t you think it s a contradiction with the spirit of the game (which is to hire units with ressources ??!!) Since a long time i ve watched Clem progress.. While he was emerging from the top, he has tried some build with the idea to contain creep, building bunkers to hold on against banelings waves but it has never worked out.. You can't struggle defending lines if you don t rush to 200 population, economically cause we are always behind and strategically cause we can t surprise Zergs as long as creep is spreading. I could think another solution to the creep problem, you could revert workers start to 8 or 9 and make bunkers more interesting, .. As i said, 12 workers has never shorter games, ... It just helps commentators and it probably hasn t change the audience.. In combination with some tought adjustements (and easy for example : little bit more hp to zerglings and reduce their speed on creep, make bunkers more interesting), it could add depth in the mid game.. If he s still existing... | ||
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
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Vision_
844 Posts
On December 29 2019 07:32 NastyMarine wrote: This whole issue can be corrected by making creep spread via creep tumors an upgradable asset @ 100/100 upgrade @ 60 secs within lair tech accessibility (before or by lair tech) This will force more risks from zergs and enable practical timing windows for all races for possibilities with ground timing attacks or expansion grabs. It will improve a lot of low and high tier players decision making in a good way. Yes i didn t think about it, but similary i would just like to avoid an ON/OFF option.. In my mind, your upgrade could just reduce building time of creep tumors, in order to let the opponent more time to destroy them... Thanks to your idea, i ve just get another idea, In addition of cut the tumors repetability function, destroying an active tumors will set the last invisible tumor visible. I m asking myself if i could open a new thread and ask to the community for a poll ? PS: you already guessed Zergs opponent will be a little bit more rewarded for destroying creep tumors...  | ||
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LTCM
174 Posts
On December 16 2019 20:06 odysseus_ulysses wrote: I feel pro players would be irate at this change. Pro players have put serious time into this skill and it is a big marker of a good zerg. It would be a bit like removing the ability of medivacs to carry units. If they can remove msc then they can rework creep. | ||
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NastyMarine
United States1252 Posts
On December 29 2019 22:21 Vision_ wrote: Yes i didn t think about it, but similary i would just like to avoid an ON/OFF option.. In my mind, your upgrade could just reduce building time of creep tumors, in order to let the opponent more time to destroy them... Thanks to your idea, i ve just get another idea, In addition of cut the tumors repetability function, destroying an active tumors will set the last invisible tumor visible. I m asking myself if i could open a new thread and ask to the community for a poll ? PS: you already guessed Zergs opponent will be a little bit more rewarded for destroying creep tumors... I really don’t understand what you mean by avoiding an on/off option. What I’m promoting here would allow 60 secs for an opponent to have a timing window in which they can fight an even battle with a greedy Zerg before the creep exponentially grows. Zergs in the early game will keep some queens in forward positions to protect and spread the creep tumors until there’s an acceptable number of creeps self replicating. So this idea that I have would just keep the queens busy for a bit longer - enough to allow more meaningful engagements in the early game. That is super important with the current state of the game! I think making an inactive (or already used) creep tumor visible after the lead/active tumor is killed is overkill and it would ruin the functionality of having units/spells/abilities that reveal cloaked & burrowed units in the first place in all Zerg matchups - especially late game. That would punish Zergs in an extreme way And I’m saying this as a Terran player. So what your suggesting is all I have to do is scan the first tumor and then I’d be able to wipe out all the tumors in that loop? Nope, that is too much! In fact that’s crazy! And where did you see me say reduce the building time for tumors? I didn’t say that at all. My implication here with the upgrade (let’s call it ‘Tumor Multiplicity’) is that it will force Zerg players to use their queens in more forward positions early game instead of essentially laying a few tumors down and focusing purely on larvae spawns for 60 more secs. Players will have to stick their necks out of their comfort zones for 1 minute more than usual in order to get the creep spread going. So Zergs either will buy an extra queen for that initial creep spread or focus on getting that upgrade early so they don’t need to invest in more queens before mid-game. Zergs need more risks. You really can’t do much to punish them if they are being greedy. I also thought of an idea to have banelings have an upgradable ability (@ bane nest) to allow them to transform into creep tumors - Lair tech, 100/100, 45 secs upgrade time, 10 secs to transform into tumor (no cost) - must be placed on creep. I think with how more creative and elaborate schemes (perceived all-ins) that can be used with utility like that. I think that also helps Zerg late game when pulling queens forward (other than all-ins) to replace destroyed tumors. This could mitigate the early cost of the initial tumor upgrade and allow Zergs to make priority decisions about making more queens than you need or ridding excess banelings that are deemed ineffective in certain circumstances in the late game. BTW it’s not about killing creep tumors. That can be done easily and quick with p or t. It’s mid game that’s the problem. Where neither Protoss or Terran Ground armies can kill a greedy expo and survive - that’s the problem. And we shouldn’t be trying to punish creep spread late game. My proposal will do just that. | ||
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