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I ve watched to Serral games and his playstyle confirm what i m thinking.. Of course he s one of the best cause his creep spread is better than other players, but in studying the last game, you can proof that Zerg pro players could "give a try" / "try the challenge" to spread creep only with Queens (no replication of creep tumors) cause probably half of tumors are made from queens...
I m clearly in favor of this change or at least invit some players to test this idea. Then, there s some changes according to this "drastic change" (it s not really a nerf indeed ?) as consequences (and also to allow a Queens number gamble)
Main Changes :
- Tumors replication ability removed
- Tumors energy cost decreased from 25 to 15
Eventual update
- Tumors replication ability removed
- Tumors energy cost decreased from 25 to 12
- Tumor size creep spread decrease from 10.5 to 8.5
Basic Eventual Changes :
- Queen time production is decreased from 36 to 32
- Hit points decrease from 175 to 160
- Creep Cycle from tumors and hatchery decrease from 0.45 to 0.4
- Spawn creep tumors duration decrease from 11 sec to 7 sec
Ideas Considered
- Transfusion ability decreased form (75 + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 + 40 over 7 sec)
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
- Creep speed reduction ?
Of course these changes will be impactfull on every creatures of the Zerg player and the changes could be adjusted according to the new weakness of each creatures and their behavior along the game.
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This would promote mass queen play. The queen is allready one of the strongest units in the game and is build quite often. If creep tumors couldn t reproduce, Zerg would built even more queens, especially, when they got cheaper.
The only way to attack with mass queens is thru the Nydus, thoug.
I think that would be an awfull change.
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I'd be happy to keep creep as is but lower the unit speed bonuses. Maybe decrease the vision a bit as well to about the vision of a burrowed widow mine
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On November 15 2019 20:18 dbRic1203 wrote:
This would promote mass queen play. The queen is allready one of the strongest units in the game and is build quite often. If creep tumors couldn t reproduce, Zerg would built even more queens, especially, when they got cheaper.
The only way to attack with mass queens is thru the Nydus, thoug.
I think that would be an awfull change.
Who is talking about price ? I didn t change the cost of the unit in my proposal. Then your re not entirely wrong but if the energy price of tumors is decreased from 25 to 15, you ll need 60% less queens, this has already been taken into account.
As you can see the time duration for produce a queen is also decreased, it is to serve the same purpose. It s difficult to decrease her time creation due to proxy opening.
I think it s interesting as comments but the forms is very negative. Then you tie the creep spread problem to nydus which can be easily avoid with the new patch released (and so in increasing a little bit time of spawning nydus for example, isn t it ?)
I repeat, thanks to energy, you need 60% less queens to spread enought quantity of creep, in admitting a Zerg player doesn t use the ability of replication of tumors. Actually, without the queens dedicated to hatchery, a zerg player should bet (gamble) around a number of queens depending on how fast he wants to spread the creep and how large the map is (You won t need more queens in definitive, for example if Serral has 8 Queens dedicated to spawn tumors, with this change, he only have to create 5 Queens - As he must expand around twice faster, he needs now 10 Queens.. But Its Serral..).
Obviously, if you re afraid to get a mass queens, you can decreased cost energy of tumors from 25 to 10 and decrease their size creap spread from 10.5 to 8.5,.. This is simple idea, and probably a good idea.
So if your comments is half true and half wrong, As We can t change the supply cost for obvious reasons, We can also think to reduce the Transfusion ability for example from (75 base + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 base + 40 over 7 sec). Combining with the hit points reduction the Queen role is now more oriented as a defensive unit / mandatory unit.
- Transfusion ability decreased form (75 + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 + 40 over 7 sec)
On November 15 2019 20:31 MinixTheNerd wrote:
I'd be happy to keep creep as is but lower the unit speed bonuses. Maybe decrease the vision a bit as well to about the vision of a burrowed widow mine
It would be a problem in term of design in the mini map.. fog of war will be plenty of holes covering your territory
There are many solutions to avoid massing Queens ? what do you propose guys ?
Then, the nydus could be unable to spawn outside the creep without an upgrade...
Or Nydus price could depend of how far it spawns... The playstyle will be more creep spread oriented if you allow Nydus earlier in the game, you could also make larger the creep spread from overseer and his speed reduction slower.. There are many ways to solve this problem, and often the simple idea of removing replication ability of tumors is the best.. (this is not my idea indeed..)
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In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous.
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On November 16 2019 02:47 FFgringo wrote:
In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous.
If you're scouting your opponent with creep, you've already won the game or are doing a really weird cheese.
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My suggestion: make creep tumor's vision slightly smaller than the amount of creep it generates. That way you are encouraged to have units provide vision if you want your creep to be spread maximally efficient. Otherwise your spread will be say 70% less per new tumor.
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Northern Ireland24421 Posts
I’m not sure what specifically to change, creep vision from spread is unrecognisable compared to the early days of SC2, feels the game was not really balanced around what modern Zergs can accomplish.
It’s probably the single biggest improvement in player competence we’ve seen in the game, and things like chrono and muling it was much quicker for players to top out at the ceiling in those regards.
I like the idea about having to use units to push it out, but not mass Queens.
All sorts of other tweaks you could implement from tumour costs, cooldowns, rate of spread etc
What about needing non-tumour vision to spread creep? You could still push it out with spotter lings or overlords, but this would give more benefit to your opponent sharking them away.
Also as an aside it does amuse that a guy with the username Vision is so concerned with creep granting vision :p
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On November 16 2019 06:10 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 02:47 FFgringo wrote:
In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous. If you're scouting your opponent with creep, you've already won the game or are doing a really weird cheese.
you're misinterpreting him on purpose. obviously the point is that if scouting is easy then reducing map vision would provide counterbalance in the form of giving T/P opponents more opportunity to outposition and flank. don't act obtuse just to make yourself appear clever
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I haven t still read your comments but some of them looks really interesting,
Without much tought, we can say "multi spawn" tumors in the same area is weird,.. Indeed, the only purpose of doing that is to prevent ennemies to kill tumors faster and everybody can agree of their exponential spreading, not mathematically checked.
I don t say it s idiot or something else, it s a lack of design issue cause even if it s also an advantage for rapid fire users, SC2 stands as a strategy game and not a competition of "fastest click on the creep" (not worthy). In authorizing this kind of gameplay, chances of players are unavoidably disturb and the part of the strategy game will be reduced while the part of "fastest player won" will be increased.
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Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/layEV4a.jpg)
Linearity for Queens : 0.07
Linearity for Tumors : 0.2
I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three.
Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens
Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens
This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game...
Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf
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After some toughts, a great issue "none so drastic" (as i proposed before, i.e removed entirely the iterative spawning tumors) It s to set a max limit of iteration in the spwanning process of creep tumors. I would say main tumors can create two others secondary tumors (...) then an ending special animation informs Zerg Player of the last tumors of this branch
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So the next natural step is to study the peak after 5 minutes (up to 7 min 20s , i.e 310 to 440) :
The graph shows :
with 6 initial tumors made from queens, serral create 30 creep tumors within 130 seconds without spending any additionnal mana. During this time, total amount of mana gain is equal to 6 x 156 = 936 mana points.
We could also estimate the potential mana cost of each tumors if they were created by a Queen :
30 x 25 = 750 mana points
And the total cost of the 6 first tumors : 6 X 25 = 150 mana points.
During this time, Serral has save 750 - 150 = 600 mana points of 936.. (64%)
Then this amount of mana save will decrease the virtual mana cost of the other spells :
50 x 0.64 = 32 points of mana...
Which means a potential Transfusion every 26 seconds.. (decreased from 42 sec to 26 sec)
25 x 0.64 = 16 points of mana....
Which means an injection every 13 seconds (decreased from 21 sec to 13 sec)
Conclusion,
Now 3 hatcheries can be injected only having one Queen.
Where is gone the Queen ?
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What's "Creep Cycle"?
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
What a buff. (lol)
I'm not sure if transfuse needs to be nerfed considering the extra amount of queen energy to keep creep going this change would cause.
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On December 02 2019 03:17 terribleplayer1 wrote:
What's "Creep Cycle"?
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
What a buff. (lol)
I'm not sure if transfuse needs to be nerfed considering the extra amount of queen energy to keep creep going this change would cause.
once every 'creep cycle' seconds, every generator generates one cell of creep within its radius, next to a cell covered in creep (yep a spanning tree).
overseer does not generate creep, so that must be a typo, he must have meant poop lords i guess.
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Hello Community,
Here a good idea to control creep numbers tumors repetition :
- After each tumors, Creep size spreading from tumors is decreased by 2 (around 2, maybe 1.5 with min = 6)
What do you think about this ?
Then, you can slowly nerf the speed when Queens is spawnning tumors to have a chance to catch them.
- Add delay for spwanning tumors by the queen : around 4 seconds (as a worker the queen stands near the tumors during spell)
Why agree or not ?
From starcraft 2 wiki :
""The Spawn Creep Tumor is a less prioritized ability of the Queen, as Spawn Larva is a more essential ability, but it is still a commonly used and powerful ability.""
It s not only a less prioritized ability, it s also an over concentrated ability (see graph above). It s seems natural to conclude repetitive tumors creeps ability is overlapping the role of queens ability which is needed only during the 1/4 of the game duration, especially at start.
Inevitably, opponent can t struggle against the repetability from tumors, feature which is illimited, and which can t be reduce to a limited number of iteration (cause it mustn t be too complicated at playing, it needs working mecanism..). People doesn t want to change that and it s easy to understand...
The only way to smooth this powerfull ability is to reduce gradually the power (area surface) of the creep (not his speed cause it s directly dependant of player skill). Then the Zerg player (who said Serral ?) has to drive his queens with more risks to the border line of his creep if he wants to go on spreading.
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On November 30 2019 05:51 Vision_ wrote:Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation Linearity for Queens : 0.07 Linearity for Tumors : 0.2 I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three. Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game... Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf
Beautiful work, truly. Well done.
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Creep spread is the indicator of Zerg being good or bad, and clearing creepvis the indicator of how good Zerg's opponent is. For example in ZvT the better my creep spread is, it forces Terran to burn orbital energy for scans. That means less mules. It's kind of harras of Zerg in some means. The same way as Terran harrases to limit Zerg's economy. Ofc creep spread give Zerg advantages but it's hard to spread it as Serral does, and he is the best player in the world. Implications of nerfing creep would be extremely dangerous for balance. Creep is another resource for Zerg and very critical forbZerg gameplay. Leave it alone. It was nerfed already few times. This is same thing as nerfing chronoboost or mules.
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Creep should not provide the vision it provides. Top zergs can prepare almost perfect engagements with all that vision.
It could provide the type of vision a sensor tower provides, which helps with positioning but not so much with the engagement itself.
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Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet.
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Yes, someone will have to be better than serral. And reynor and dark and rogue and soo and elazar and..... Well you get the point.
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Northern Ireland24421 Posts
On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote:
Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet.
Why not nerf it?
Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be.
On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago.
Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem.
Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras.
Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively.
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On November 30 2019 05:51 Vision_ wrote:Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation Linearity for Queens : 0.07 Linearity for Tumors : 0.2 I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three. Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game... Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf
So were did you learn to not mark the x and y axis? What does it stand for? 700...? 70 number of creep tumors?
It's normal to give a picture name/description if you want to share anything with it and not just for looking smart.
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I propose one plan
Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame.
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On December 14 2019 13:05 Kertorak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2019 05:51 Vision_ wrote:Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation Linearity for Queens : 0.07 Linearity for Tumors : 0.2 I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three. Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game... Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf So were did you learn to not mark the x and y axis? What does it stand for? 700...? 70 number of creep tumors? It's normal to give a picture name/description if you want to share anything with it and not just for looking smart.
Being an ass, without even being smart is even a sadder way to look smart.
I actually tried to use my brain before writing this post and I'll explain that:
X = gametime. 700? 7:00? Hard to figure out, eh?
Y = tumours. Hard to notice the relativity of queens/tumours to the Y axis?
User was temp banned for this post.
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I like it, specially because it promotes fights around the middle of the map. Zergs will have to protect better their queens specially in the early stages and they will be more vulnerable if zerg wants to have a good creep spread. I think one of the lacking features of SC2 is the all over the map fighting. Specially when compared with BW. All of the fights happen around bases. So anything that promotes go and have an stance in the middle of the map and spread your units a bit more is a welcome change.
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On December 14 2019 11:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote:
Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet. Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively.
Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
I think increasing the time for a tumor being able to spread itself and maybe lowering the vision radius on tumors would be fine
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Northern Ireland24421 Posts
On December 15 2019 00:53 Hunta15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 11:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote:
Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet. Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively. Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs.
Doesn’t have to be a nerf to Zerg, other tools can be given to compensate.
How many times has Warp Gate been nerfed over the years? Or bunker build times despite their now meme status.
My point was that ultimately creep spread has improved hugely over the years, because it’s a mechanic that has a really high ceiling.
Even mechanically decent low Masters players can basically use chronoboost and mules to vaguely close to their optimal level. Comparable Zergs will have garbage creep spread compared to better Zergs.
It’s not that it’s outright ‘OP’ it’s that it’s a mechanic with a way higher ceiling than the other race’s, and players’ proficiency in using that mechanic is way, way beyond what used to happen.
People talk about compositions being OP or whatever and neglect creep’s role. In previous eras where players hadn’t focused as much on creep you could pick apart certain compositions with multipronged harassment, now you’re trying to do that with a Zerg that has half the map covered in creep plus overlord coverage in the air space.
Zerg is the reactive race that will also totally murder passivity, by design and a fundamental one I quite like. If you give the race too much information it makes it outright too powerful, hence this thread.
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On December 14 2019 13:22 emperorofwild wrote:
I propose one plan
Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame.
viper is unlocked by hive, so no, not the same building
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On December 14 2019 13:22 emperorofwild wrote:
I propose one plan
Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame.
What do you mean?
Currently there are a few buildings that unlock more than one unit.
Spawning pool - Zergling, Queen
Banelings nest - Baneling
Roach warren - Roach, Ravager
Hydralisk den - Hydralisk
Infestation pit - Infestor, Swarmhost
Spire - Mutalisk, Corruptor
Lurker den - Lurker
Hive - Viper
Greater spire - Broodlord
Ultralisk cavern - Ultralisk
4 buildings unlock 2 units, while 6 buildings unlock 1 unit.
Do you suggest that:
Infestors should be unlocked by Hive,
Queen's den, Ravager mound, and Corruptor roost should be new buildings?
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On December 15 2019 20:13 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2019 13:22 emperorofwild wrote:
I propose one plan
Almost all Zerg unit need a building to unlock, one unit one building- except viper and infestor they can be unlock in one, and they are exactly the most powerful in lategame. What do you mean? Currently there are a few buildings that unlock more than one unit. Spawning pool - Zergling, Queen Banelings nest - Baneling Roach warren - Roach, Ravager Hydralisk den - Hydralisk Infestation pit - Infestor, Swarmhost Spire - Mutalisk, Corruptor Lurker den - Lurker Hive - Viper Greater spire - Broodlord Ultralisk cavern - Ultralisk 4 buildings unlock 2 units, while 6 buildings unlock 1 unit. Do you suggest that: Infestors should be unlocked by Hive, Queen's den, Ravager mound, and Corruptor roost should be new buildings?
Of course, and building for drones, larvas, building to unlock minimap and all except zerglings should be unlocked with Hive, or even add 1 more upgrade.
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I think the most problematic thing is that if you clear creep spread, it`s way too easy for the Zerg player to fix the problem. Either by having queens to replace them or by having tumors ready to save the creep. Maybe just make the creep pull back faster? Or slow down the tumor replenish factor, or make it only able to self-spread once.
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I feel pro players would be irate at this change. Pro players have put serious time into this skill and it is a big marker of a good zerg.
It would be a bit like removing the ability of medivacs to carry units.
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On December 15 2019 03:35 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2019 00:53 Hunta15 wrote:On December 14 2019 11:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote:
Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet. Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively. Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs. Doesn’t have to be a nerf to Zerg, other tools can be given to compensate. How many times has Warp Gate been nerfed over the years? Or bunker build times despite their now meme status. My point was that ultimately creep spread has improved hugely over the years, because it’s a mechanic that has a really high ceiling. Even mechanically decent low Masters players can basically use chronoboost and mules to vaguely close to their optimal level. Comparable Zergs will have garbage creep spread compared to better Zergs. It’s not that it’s outright ‘OP’ it’s that it’s a mechanic with a way higher ceiling than the other race’s, and players’ proficiency in using that mechanic is way, way beyond what used to happen. People talk about compositions being OP or whatever and neglect creep’s role. In previous eras where players hadn’t focused as much on creep you could pick apart certain compositions with multipronged harassment, now you’re trying to do that with a Zerg that has half the map covered in creep plus overlord coverage in the air space. Zerg is the reactive race that will also totally murder passivity, by design and a fundamental one I quite like. If you give the race too much information it makes it outright too powerful, hence this thread.
Creep was already nerfed in the last patch: you can't cancel creep tumors anymore. Killing active creep tumors has a higher impact. Frankly you have no basis to want to nerf it.
So I'll answer the question of why not nerf it? It doesn't need to be.
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On December 17 2019 06:09 Hunta15 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2019 03:35 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 15 2019 00:53 Hunta15 wrote:On December 14 2019 11:57 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 14 2019 09:56 Arghmyliver wrote:
Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet. Why not nerf it? Zergs are much, much better at spreading creep than they used to be. On the flipside chronoboost, or mules we’re basically ‘maxed out’ as macro mechanics I mean, years and years ago. Protoss and Terran players don’t have anywhere to go to stretch the effectiveness of their macro mechanics, but Zerg has a super high ceiling which ultimately is a problem. Zergs regularly have a good half map spread if not better of total map vision nowadays, which is a giant jump compared to previous eras. Protoss and Terran do not have any comparable jump in terms of using their macro mechanics effectively. Why not nerf it? What kind of an argument is that? Unless you can somehow already prove that Zerg is overpowered on the new patch there is no basis for new nerfs. Doesn’t have to be a nerf to Zerg, other tools can be given to compensate. How many times has Warp Gate been nerfed over the years? Or bunker build times despite their now meme status. My point was that ultimately creep spread has improved hugely over the years, because it’s a mechanic that has a really high ceiling. Even mechanically decent low Masters players can basically use chronoboost and mules to vaguely close to their optimal level. Comparable Zergs will have garbage creep spread compared to better Zergs. It’s not that it’s outright ‘OP’ it’s that it’s a mechanic with a way higher ceiling than the other race’s, and players’ proficiency in using that mechanic is way, way beyond what used to happen. People talk about compositions being OP or whatever and neglect creep’s role. In previous eras where players hadn’t focused as much on creep you could pick apart certain compositions with multipronged harassment, now you’re trying to do that with a Zerg that has half the map covered in creep plus overlord coverage in the air space. Zerg is the reactive race that will also totally murder passivity, by design and a fundamental one I quite like. If you give the race too much information it makes it outright too powerful, hence this thread. Creep was already nerfed in the last patch: you can't cancel creep tumors anymore. Killing active creep tumors has a higher impact. Frankly you have no basis to want to nerf it. So I'll answer the question of why not nerf it? It doesn't need to be.
I can answer why you need to nerf creep or something in relation with creep...
A zergling (on creep) can cross a map as Ephemerion in about 15 seconds (with upgrade).
In other hand a zergling in Starcraft : Brood war can cross the map in about 20 seconds (with upgrade too, in reality 21 seconds but i have count the border of the Ephemerion map)
And this difference is exactly equal to the buff speed when a zergling is running on creep (+30%)
Adding the fact as a zerg you can control the whole army and it becomes hell to hold on intensity of each new match in a row (Best of 5, 7 etc..)... The skill level of Terran players (which has always been promoted) is impacted along the game until the error occurs while zerg can avoid to take risks using creep tumors repetability (and saving his queens), ensuring to have enought awarness and time to defend.
The idea developped by Wombat_NI is really full of good sense, From what i ve looked of replays from Serral, i can confirm the quality of Serral management concerning creep tumors. Saving lot of tumors allow him to use the 'cure spell' and this is not the only thing which make Serral better, but it is a part of it.
I think Zergs doesn t take enought risks, and if you don t want to nerf creep cause you could be in trouble against Protoss, The question remains : why a race as Terran, which has best units in siege (tanks, mines, liberators) is not able to create a siege unless he s max out ? As it has been clearly said by Serral, Special, etc.. the Terran hasn t the right to make mistakes in his attacks, he s constantly under pressure, and only the most accomplished Terrans (Kor) with skills and mental training competition can struggle against Top Master Zergs.
So why there s no siege lines before (the nearly) End game ?
Why couldn t we build bunkers near your f***ing creep border in mid game ?
Are we so powerless ? Aren t we the wallers in starcraft ? You can spend all your gas into banelings while in our bio army (in mid game always) we can t use gas efficiently ? Don t you think it s a contradiction with the spirit of the game (which is to hire units with ressources ??!!)
Since a long time i ve watched Clem progress.. While he was emerging from the top, he has tried some build with the idea to contain creep, building bunkers to hold on against banelings waves but it has never worked out.. You can't struggle defending lines if you don t rush to 200 population, economically cause we are always behind and strategically cause we can t surprise Zergs as long as creep is spreading.
I could think another solution to the creep problem, you could revert workers start to 8 or 9 and make bunkers more interesting, .. As i said, 12 workers has never shorter games, ... It just helps commentators and it probably hasn t change the audience.. In combination with some tought adjustements (and easy for example : little bit more hp to zerglings and reduce their speed on creep, make bunkers more interesting), it could add depth in the mid game.. If he s still existing...
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This whole issue can be corrected by making creep spread via creep tumors an upgradable asset @ 100/100 upgrade @ 60 secs within lair tech accessibility (before or by lair tech) This will force more risks from zergs and enable practical timing windows for all races for possibilities with ground timing attacks or expansion grabs. It will improve a lot of low and high tier players decision making in a good way.
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On December 16 2019 20:06 odysseus_ulysses wrote:
I feel pro players would be irate at this change. Pro players have put serious time into this skill and it is a big marker of a good zerg.
It would be a bit like removing the ability of medivacs to carry units.
If they can remove msc then they can rework creep.
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On December 29 2019 22:21 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2019 07:32 NastyMarine wrote:
This whole issue can be corrected by making creep spread via creep tumors an upgradable asset @ 100/100 upgrade @ 60 secs within lair tech accessibility (before or by lair tech) This will force more risks from zergs and enable practical timing windows for all races for possibilities with ground timing attacks or expansion grabs. It will improve a lot of low and high tier players decision making in a good way. Yes i didn t think about it, but similary i would just like to avoid an ON/OFF option.. In my mind, your upgrade could just reduce building time of creep tumors, in order to let the opponent more time to destroy them... Thanks to your idea, i ve just get another idea, In addition of cut the tumors repetability function, destroying an active tumors will set the last invisible tumor visible. I m asking myself if i could open a new thread and ask to the community for a poll ? PS: you already guessed Zergs opponent will be a little bit more rewarded for destroying creep tumors... 
I really don’t understand what you mean by avoiding an on/off option. What I’m promoting here would allow 60 secs for an opponent to have a timing window in which they can fight an even battle with a greedy Zerg before the creep exponentially grows. Zergs in the early game will keep some queens in forward positions to protect and spread the creep tumors until there’s an acceptable number of creeps self replicating. So this idea that I have would just keep the queens busy for a bit longer - enough to allow more meaningful engagements in the early game. That is super important with the current state of the game!
I think making an inactive (or already used) creep tumor visible after the lead/active tumor is killed is overkill and it would ruin the functionality of having units/spells/abilities that reveal cloaked & burrowed units in the first place in all Zerg matchups - especially late game. That would punish Zergs in an extreme way And I’m saying this as a Terran player. So what your suggesting is all I have to do is scan the first tumor and then I’d be able to wipe out all the tumors in that loop? Nope, that is too much! In fact that’s crazy!
And where did you see me say reduce the building time for tumors? I didn’t say that at all. My implication here with the upgrade (let’s call it ‘Tumor Multiplicity’) is that it will force Zerg players to use their queens in more forward positions early game instead of essentially laying a few tumors down and focusing purely on larvae spawns for 60 more secs. Players will have to stick their necks out of their comfort zones for 1 minute more than usual in order to get the creep spread going. So Zergs either will buy an extra queen for that initial creep spread or focus on getting that upgrade early so they don’t need to invest in more queens before mid-game. Zergs need more risks. You really can’t do much to punish them if they are being greedy.
I also thought of an idea to have banelings have an upgradable ability (@ bane nest) to allow them to transform into creep tumors - Lair tech, 100/100, 45 secs upgrade time, 10 secs to transform into tumor (no cost) - must be placed on creep. I think with how more creative and elaborate schemes (perceived all-ins) that can be used with utility like that. I think that also helps Zerg late game when pulling queens forward (other than all-ins) to replace destroyed tumors. This could mitigate the early cost of the initial tumor upgrade and allow Zergs to make priority decisions about making more queens than you need or ridding excess banelings that are deemed ineffective in certain circumstances in the late game.
BTW it’s not about killing creep tumors. That can be done easily and quick with p or t. It’s mid game that’s the problem. Where neither Protoss or Terran Ground armies can kill a greedy expo and survive - that’s the problem. And we shouldn’t be trying to punish creep spread late game. My proposal will do just that.
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Sorry my purpose wasn t to distort about your idea...
In definitive we agree on the main problem :
- zergs doesn t take enought risks
- decisive mid game for Terrans
I m not fan (but i like it) of your idea cause the mecanism of spreading creep is already in this shape. in my mind, spawning tumors with a queen and 'tumor multiplicity' is biased choice - As i show in the graph above, there is an over concentration of queens spawning ability at the start of the game. It s different from an overlapping abbility, it s just like these two spells aren t made to work together (...).
SC2 works in macro management, and adding an upgrade like you said can smooth the start of the mid game, smoothing the step in-between Z massively spwan tumors with queen ability and the 'multiplicity spell'.. however if we are used to melt upgrades one by one in order to make a 'build', i m not fan of the idea of a new 'forced upgrade' (as mandatory to win the game - there is already 'overlord speed'...)
My tought about promote the cleaning tumors action by a terran or a protoss wasn t so drastic, i have only forget some details :
In killing the last tumor, borrowed tentacle of tumor will bleed and heal his wound until the next to last tumor has scared over.. Then, as the process is curing, the tumor hasn t to be revealed, it only become visible 'x' seconds after killing the 'active/multiplicative' one, and then become not visible after it stop bleeding. This delay is done allowing Zerg to defend.
To be honest, your solution is great cause as you said :
Zerg should have to use their queens in more forward positions early game instead of essentially laying a few tumors down and focusing purely on larvae spawns for 60 more secs.
My solution make me happy cause it brings something more to opponents, it promotes players to settle in an area more easily, it promotes to siege before creep lines while the pro player (mainly terran..) actually has to move (and kill ?) into the nest / swarm / base.. To me it s attractive cause i enjoy a new mecanism without changing any parameters in Zerg race (vision, delay, mana cost, ...).
Maybe it s time to rethink again...
PS : Go further with my idea :
+ Show Spoiler +Then we could have the opportunity to settle some bunkers (with an updated upgrade, separatly from 'neosteel frame' which will also, reduce building time, plus adding 2 cargo space, adding some hit points..). Actually, banelings can easily wipe out a bunker lines whatever you have 4 or 6 cargo space... All marines are too close (crowded) together so it doesn t matter.
It could open a different way to the mid game for struggling against creep, it could demand to zerg players more decision army movement, it offers a turning back to the terran.
All tumors looks like as one unit, as a network...
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/44NmypQ/sc2.jpg)
Test with decreasing vision of tumors (from 10 to 7)... Note you can t spwan new tumors in fog of war.
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/2ZfSsLk/sc2-vision.jpg)
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In the same way, Queen could evolve with 50 gas to get the new ability of multiple tumors.. I think for now it s the best solution, in term of design, Queens keep three spells and in term of mecanics we don t add a new upgrade (which would have to be done ftw).
Queen ability in LoTV :
- Spawn single tumor (decreased mana cost from 25 to 15) - tumor can t spawn another tumor...
Evolved Queen (+50 gas):
- Spawn tumors with 'multiplicity' ability mana cost around 50 (i don t know...)
PS : A last proposal could allow to create a tumor from a burrowed tumors in paying some gas (minerals ?)
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This is a worthy attempt at examining a fundamental mechanic in the game. I don't know how it plays out, but I feel that it is definitely worth attention/internal-testing.
SC2 is a RTS - emphasis on the strategy. Being able to gain intel on enemy positioning and composition is key, While balance statistics might or might-not reveal it, vision (read: intel) plays a bigger and bigger role as players get better and better.
As other posters have stated, the skill-ceiling of creep is higher than other mechanics for the other races.
BUT
May I suggest that we look for ways to increase the skill-ceiling of other base race-mechanics?
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The GLOBAL skill-ceiling of races is probably the higher with Terran (You only have to check APM to be sure - must be equal between Zerg and Protoss - we can argue with but it s not the subject),
The Terran are obviously the race which suffers the most of vision, ... Zerg has creep tumors and Protoss have their observators which is not so powerfull (but good enought).
In comparaison, Terran has 'scans' which also reveal invisible units, and while his cost spell could be change to get more 'scans', it can t be done because of dealing with dark templar, borrowed units or so.
The skill ceiling of tumors management has mainly impacted the way of playing with caution (making opponent strategy less and less valuable) and imo, this advantage can t be counter balance with changes inside opponent mecanism races.
If we can't change Zerg creep, i propose this for Terran :
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5386 Posts
Terran can float engineering bays or barracks around the map for vision if they want to. Does any player do that?
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Canada8988 Posts
On January 01 2020 01:13 pheer wrote:
Terran can float engineering bays or barracks around the map for vision if they want to. Does any player do that?
Ebay can't float in SC2. No one really use barracks to scout outside of the first one if you go mech, but I think it would be worth it a lot of the time to build more of them to scout, they are only worth 3 marines +1 scv building time.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/YB4h2BG/bunker-adv.jpg)
