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I ve watched to Serral games and his playstyle confirm what i m thinking.. Of course he s one of the best cause his creep spread is better than other players, but in studying the last game, you can proof that Zerg pro players could "give a try" / "try the challenge" to spread creep only with Queens (no replication of creep tumors) cause probably half of tumors are made from queens...
I m clearly in favor of this change or at least invit some players to test this idea. Then, there s some changes according to this "drastic change" (it s not really a nerf indeed ?) as consequences (and also to allow a Queens number gamble)
Main Changes :
- Tumors replication ability removed
- Tumors energy cost decreased from 25 to 15
Eventual update
- Tumors replication ability removed
- Tumors energy cost decreased from 25 to 12
- Tumor size creep spread decrease from 10.5 to 8.5
Basic Eventual Changes :
- Queen time production is decreased from 36 to 32
- Hit points decrease from 175 to 160
- Creep Cycle from tumors and hatchery decrease from 0.45 to 0.4
- Spawn creep tumors duration decrease from 11 sec to 7 sec
Ideas Considered
- Transfusion ability decreased form (75 + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 + 40 over 7 sec)
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
- Creep speed reduction ?
Of course these changes will be impactfull on every creatures of the Zerg player and the changes could be adjusted according to the new weakness of each creatures and their behavior along the game.
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This would promote mass queen play. The queen is allready one of the strongest units in the game and is build quite often. If creep tumors couldn t reproduce, Zerg would built even more queens, especially, when they got cheaper.
The only way to attack with mass queens is thru the Nydus, thoug.
I think that would be an awfull change.
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I'd be happy to keep creep as is but lower the unit speed bonuses. Maybe decrease the vision a bit as well to about the vision of a burrowed widow mine
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On November 15 2019 20:18 dbRic1203 wrote:
This would promote mass queen play. The queen is allready one of the strongest units in the game and is build quite often. If creep tumors couldn t reproduce, Zerg would built even more queens, especially, when they got cheaper.
The only way to attack with mass queens is thru the Nydus, thoug.
I think that would be an awfull change.
Who is talking about price ? I didn t change the cost of the unit in my proposal. Then your re not entirely wrong but if the energy price of tumors is decreased from 25 to 15, you ll need 60% less queens, this has already been taken into account.
As you can see the time duration for produce a queen is also decreased, it is to serve the same purpose. It s difficult to decrease her time creation due to proxy opening.
I think it s interesting as comments but the forms is very negative. Then you tie the creep spread problem to nydus which can be easily avoid with the new patch released (and so in increasing a little bit time of spawning nydus for example, isn t it ?)
I repeat, thanks to energy, you need 60% less queens to spread enought quantity of creep, in admitting a Zerg player doesn t use the ability of replication of tumors. Actually, without the queens dedicated to hatchery, a zerg player should bet (gamble) around a number of queens depending on how fast he wants to spread the creep and how large the map is (You won t need more queens in definitive, for example if Serral has 8 Queens dedicated to spawn tumors, with this change, he only have to create 5 Queens - As he must expand around twice faster, he needs now 10 Queens.. But Its Serral..).
Obviously, if you re afraid to get a mass queens, you can decreased cost energy of tumors from 25 to 10 and decrease their size creap spread from 10.5 to 8.5,.. This is simple idea, and probably a good idea.
So if your comments is half true and half wrong, As We can t change the supply cost for obvious reasons, We can also think to reduce the Transfusion ability for example from (75 base + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 base + 40 over 7 sec). Combining with the hit points reduction the Queen role is now more oriented as a defensive unit / mandatory unit.
- Transfusion ability decreased form (75 + 50 over 7 sec) to (60 + 40 over 7 sec)
On November 15 2019 20:31 MinixTheNerd wrote:
I'd be happy to keep creep as is but lower the unit speed bonuses. Maybe decrease the vision a bit as well to about the vision of a burrowed widow mine
It would be a problem in term of design in the mini map.. fog of war will be plenty of holes covering your territory
There are many solutions to avoid massing Queens ? what do you propose guys ?
Then, the nydus could be unable to spawn outside the creep without an upgrade...
Or Nydus price could depend of how far it spawns... The playstyle will be more creep spread oriented if you allow Nydus earlier in the game, you could also make larger the creep spread from overseer and his speed reduction slower.. There are many ways to solve this problem, and often the simple idea of removing replication ability of tumors is the best.. (this is not my idea indeed..)
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In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous.
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On November 16 2019 02:47 FFgringo wrote:
In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous.
If you're scouting your opponent with creep, you've already won the game or are doing a really weird cheese.
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My suggestion: make creep tumor's vision slightly smaller than the amount of creep it generates. That way you are encouraged to have units provide vision if you want your creep to be spread maximally efficient. Otherwise your spread will be say 70% less per new tumor.
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Northern Ireland12397 Posts
I’m not sure what specifically to change, creep vision from spread is unrecognisable compared to the early days of SC2, feels the game was not really balanced around what modern Zergs can accomplish.
It’s probably the single biggest improvement in player competence we’ve seen in the game, and things like chrono and muling it was much quicker for players to top out at the ceiling in those regards.
I like the idea about having to use units to push it out, but not mass Queens.
All sorts of other tweaks you could implement from tumour costs, cooldowns, rate of spread etc
What about needing non-tumour vision to spread creep? You could still push it out with spotter lings or overlords, but this would give more benefit to your opponent sharking them away.
Also as an aside it does amuse that a guy with the username Vision is so concerned with creep granting vision :p
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On November 16 2019 06:10 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2019 02:47 FFgringo wrote:
In the last pylon show, one question was: "what would you nerf in your own race, you cannot answer nothing."
TLO said it was "too easy to scout" with the zerg race.
I believe a reduction in vision radius around the tumor as proposed above would be fine, and enough. If you still want to keep a fully visible zone on creep that means you would need to have more creep tumors so they're closer from each other, hence decreasing creep spread speed in the end as a result as well. Tweaking queens is too dangerous. If you're scouting your opponent with creep, you've already won the game or are doing a really weird cheese.
you're misinterpreting him on purpose. obviously the point is that if scouting is easy then reducing map vision would provide counterbalance in the form of giving T/P opponents more opportunity to outposition and flank. don't act obtuse just to make yourself appear clever
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I haven t still read your comments but some of them looks really interesting,
Without much tought, we can say "multi spawn" tumors in the same area is weird,.. Indeed, the only purpose of doing that is to prevent ennemies to kill tumors faster and everybody can agree of their exponential spreading, not mathematically checked.
I don t say it s idiot or something else, it s a lack of design issue cause even if it s also an advantage for rapid fire users, SC2 stands as a strategy game and not a competition of "fastest click on the creep" (not worthy). In authorizing this kind of gameplay, chances of players are unavoidably disturb and the part of the strategy game will be reduced while the part of "fastest player won" will be increased.
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Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/layEV4a.jpg)
Linearity for Queens : 0.07
Linearity for Tumors : 0.2
I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three.
Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens
Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens
This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game...
Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf
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After some toughts, a great issue "none so drastic" (as i proposed before, i.e removed entirely the iterative spawning tumors) It s to set a max limit of iteration in the spwanning process of creep tumors. I would say main tumors can create two others secondary tumors (...) then an ending special animation informs Zerg Player of the last tumors of this branch
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So the next natural step is to study the peak after 5 minutes (up to 7 min 20s , i.e 310 to 440) :
The graph shows :
with 6 initial tumors made from queens, serral create 30 creep tumors within 130 seconds without spending any additionnal mana. During this time, total amount of mana gain is equal to 6 x 156 = 936 mana points.
We could also estimate the potential mana cost of each tumors if they were created by a Queen :
30 x 25 = 750 mana points
And the total cost of the 6 first tumors : 6 X 25 = 150 mana points.
During this time, Serral has save 750 - 150 = 600 mana points of 936.. (64%)
Then this amount of mana save will decrease the virtual mana cost of the other spells :
50 x 0.64 = 32 points of mana...
Which means a potential Transfusion every 26 seconds.. (decreased from 42 sec to 26 sec)
25 x 0.64 = 16 points of mana....
Which means an injection every 13 seconds (decreased from 21 sec to 13 sec)
Conclusion,
Now 3 hatcheries can be injected only having one Queen.
Where is gone the Queen ?
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What's "Creep Cycle"?
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
What a buff. (lol)
I'm not sure if transfuse needs to be nerfed considering the extra amount of queen energy to keep creep going this change would cause.
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On December 02 2019 03:17 terribleplayer1 wrote:
What's "Creep Cycle"?
- Creep size spreading from Overseer increase from 4.5 to 6
What a buff. (lol)
I'm not sure if transfuse needs to be nerfed considering the extra amount of queen energy to keep creep going this change would cause.
once every 'creep cycle' seconds, every generator generates one cell of creep within its radius, next to a cell covered in creep (yep a spanning tree).
overseer does not generate creep, so that must be a typo, he must have meant poop lords i guess.
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Hello Community,
Here a good idea to control creep numbers tumors repetition :
- After each tumors, Creep size spreading from tumors is decreased by 2 (around 2, maybe 1.5 with min = 6)
What do you think about this ?
Then, you can slowly nerf the speed when Queens is spawnning tumors to have a chance to catch them.
- Add delay for spwanning tumors by the queen : around 4 seconds (as a worker the queen stands near the tumors during spell)
Why agree or not ?
From starcraft 2 wiki :
""The Spawn Creep Tumor is a less prioritized ability of the Queen, as Spawn Larva is a more essential ability, but it is still a commonly used and powerful ability.""
It s not only a less prioritized ability, it s also an over concentrated ability (see graph above). It s seems natural to conclude repetitive tumors creeps ability is overlapping the role of queens ability which is needed only during the 1/4 of the game duration, especially at start.
Inevitably, opponent can t struggle against the repetability from tumors, feature which is illimited, and which can t be reduce to a limited number of iteration (cause it mustn t be too complicated at playing, it needs working mecanism..). People doesn t want to change that and it s easy to understand...
The only way to smooth this powerfull ability is to reduce gradually the power (area surface) of the creep (not his speed cause it s directly dependant of player skill). Then the Zerg player (who said Serral ?) has to drive his queens with more risks to the border line of his creep if he wants to go on spreading.
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On November 30 2019 05:51 Vision_ wrote:Here my study on numbers creep tumors by type of creation Linearity for Queens : 0.07 Linearity for Tumors : 0.2 I ve worked on two other study games but this result is the most interesting among three. Disco BloodBath ( TIME - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 37 created from tumors, 11 created from queens Acropolis ( INNOVATION - SERRAL WCS global 2019): 39 created from tumors, 16 created from queens This study can confirm most of the tumors are only created from the repetability of creep tumors. Notice factor is around triple !! and the biggest part of Queens action is before 5 min... As if the spell has been worked for the first minutes of the game... Remind you the duration of cooldown is 11 seconds.... The next step is to get the a new duration with a factor equal to the double, it could be enought as a nerf
Beautiful work, truly. Well done.
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Creep spread is the indicator of Zerg being good or bad, and clearing creepvis the indicator of how good Zerg's opponent is. For example in ZvT the better my creep spread is, it forces Terran to burn orbital energy for scans. That means less mules. It's kind of harras of Zerg in some means. The same way as Terran harrases to limit Zerg's economy. Ofc creep spread give Zerg advantages but it's hard to spread it as Serral does, and he is the best player in the world. Implications of nerfing creep would be extremely dangerous for balance. Creep is another resource for Zerg and very critical forbZerg gameplay. Leave it alone. It was nerfed already few times. This is same thing as nerfing chronoboost or mules.
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Creep should not provide the vision it provides. Top zergs can prepare almost perfect engagements with all that vision.
It could provide the type of vision a sensor tower provides, which helps with positioning but not so much with the engagement itself.
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Creep does not provide "free" vision. Top Zergs have that vision sometimes because they are very good at spreading creep. Attention spent spreading creep is time not spent making units, injecting, making overlords, bming, making upgrades, microing units, etc.
Look guys, at the end of the day, someone is actually going to have to just be better at Starcraft than Serral if you want him to stop winning. The smite of the nerfhammer still stings. Maybe the recent nerfs were warranted, but at this point you're literally trying to pull the rug from under our multitudinous feet.
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WCS
