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On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 09:43 Nakajin wrote:On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote:
The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post. This post just became some weird meta statement. Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave  Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year. Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague  When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim  Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
I suggest more people do what I do and just ignore deacon kid. No one should be wasting their valuable time replying and let alone read his posts
I already put him on my ignore list and never read his posts. He is very uneducated and has no knowledge of the game to even form a credible opinion or statement.
Don't feed the trolls, let them rant alone and eventually they will go away
User was warned for this post.
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On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 09:43 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
This post just became some weird meta statement. Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year. Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
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On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 09:43 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
This post just became some weird meta statement. Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year. Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
It's simply undeniable that Serral achieved what no one ever did before; you are partially right since there were players who came close to Serral's level of domination speaking of tournament streak or win ratio(not both), but Serral's numbers are simply better overall.
Be sure that Serral would be in contention for being one of the most dominant players ever even considering international tournaments only, you are undervaluing both his huge winstreak and his average placement when he was eliminated.
The role of the victim does not suit you, this forum has been dominated by korean elitists for countless years while now other points of view have gained strenght; what makes you a hater in the mind of the "Serral cult" is your unbearably low consideration of WCS tournaments. And yet you speak of toxicity...
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On September 18 2019 02:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 00:37 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way That's called GSL vs the World, and we know how that tends to play out for Maru... If you're calling on weekenders to help your case, your whataboutism is grasping at straws. Since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches vs Koreans, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Can we discuss these facts, instead of location hypotheticals ? Which is even more impressive than it looks really as Serral tends to only be playing elite Koreans when he does meet them in a tournament.
Yes absolutely ! Thanks for picking this up. I deliberately chose these stats out of intellectual honesty, as I believe they're on the conservative side - the Koreans that make it to GSL vs the World or Blizzcon are definitely better than those in defunct GSL code A.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
At least Serral fans, maybe OTT sure but it’s kinda understandable. The foreign scene has waited for absolutely forever for someone who can consistently hang with Korea’s best, peak Neeb it’s often not really mentioned was the first to really hit they kind of level, Stephano to a degree as well.
Then Serral comes along and way exceeds that benchmark and can be argued as having periods of being the world’s best player, of course people are going to be pretty excited about that.
It’s hyperbolic at times sure, at least there’s something solid to be hyperbolic about.
I don’t particularly like throwing out the tag but the ‘Korean elitists’ are the ones who are jumping through weird hoops to not give Serral his due credit, least as far as it looks from where I’m standing. It’s often not some counterbalancing of annoying Serral fanboy behaviour, it swings the scale way too far in the other direction.
Stats and trophies and actual gameplay aside, the top Korean players rate the guy as if not THE best player in the world, then up there amongst the top few. If those guys at that level who have to actually play the guy, come up with builds and strats to actually beat him all say he’s the man currently, who are we to argue?
Maybe Maru on song is the scariest player to face currently, but Serral’s consistency is insane, and it’s over one hell of a long period now.
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On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 09:43 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
This post just became some weird meta statement. Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year. Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
Is this joke ?
Since last year, you and deacon devote most of your numerous posts to troll, to provoke and downplay serral's performances but when people are calling you for it, you're crying. Like seriously, you post way more in wcs by spitting your hatred/salt/rensentment (call it as you want but overall that's a lot of negativity) than gsl threads. I don't know if I am supposed to cry or laugh maybe both but I sincerely suggest you to take some distances with sc2, you really need to relativize and stop believing you're persecuted.
Your attitude is toxic (just like korean starcraft is dying, I hope the rest dies as well), being happy about a player's win is not.
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On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote:[quote] Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year. Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination.
They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god.
What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:[quote] Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Rogue’s period was similarly impressive, however he actively failed to translate that to the GSL. Whether Serral would is of course an unknown, but it is an unknown. ‘What about the StarLeague format?’ is absolutely something I’d personally love Serral to have an actual crack. Rogue did have that crack and fell relatively short, although unbelievably impressive elsewhere.
The others absolutely, although even then their consistency isn’t quite of the same level if we look at tournament results closely.
That said , in my many years of watching this game, I don’t recall anyone having that total aura of near invincibility that Innovation had at his absolute peak (relative to the scene), when he had something like a 93% vZ win rate. He still did lose to Soulkey, but he was the scariest, best player in the world at that time. Likewise Life at times was similarly god tier, even if looking at results there’s the odd tournament he underperformed in.
Also Serral is relatively unique in he has steadily improved, is peaking, or at least remaining close to his top game. Zest on the other hand, not so much.
I don’t think this means Serral is better than Zest historically speaking, but it’s hard to compare a guy who has steadily risen and yet to slump, vs a guy who has clearly slumped from his peak.
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On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote:[quote] Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim. Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$! Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done.
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
On September 18 2019 08:18 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:[quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be? Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done. If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
Aside from Koreans, no foreigner has ever dominated foreigners as thoroughly as Serral does, ever. Outside of maybe peak Neeb, although even that isn’t quite as comprehensive.
Going back historically I mean even when Jinro was making GSL Ro4s, Idra was doing well in GSLs, Huk was hukking it up NaNiwa made his Ro8s, Stephano was Stephanoing, Scarlett was getting her IEM Pyeonchang, whenever really.
None of those guys actually translated that to absolutely dominating other foreigners, granted the tournament structures were different in those days, so it’s hard to directly compare.
There’s not really been a time where a singular player either wins a tournament or loses in a final in like, actually every single foreigner tournament.
It is hard to compare directly I guess as I’m on a phone and couldn’t be arsed poring over Liquipedia. If we’re to directly transplant to that era with its more frequent weekenders that have Korean involvement, it would be like a player who is either the highest placing foreigner, or only lost directly to the other highest placing foreigner for every big tournament for two years
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On September 18 2019 08:18 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:[quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be? If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS.
Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
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I dont think WCS means much, I focus on level of play alone and Serral really does seem to be the best player in the world, Maru might have higher peaks, but he is not as consistent, I think its fine to admit that Serral has been a top 2 world player for quite some time now, it's just the reality of things, he's nowhere near goat or bonjwa tho.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
On September 18 2019 08:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 08:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:
[quote]
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be? If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief. Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS. Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
I don’t really think the circuit is that relevant, it’s the consistency that basically nobody else, has matched that is impressive.
I’m not sure exactly how we would mesh the two together, or what’s equivalent comparing GSL to WCS, so it’s difficult to compare them directly.
Let’s just be crude and say GSL Ro16 is vaguely equivalent to WCS Ro8, perhaps the Ro4 given Special has made 2 Ro16s and a final and a Ro4 recently respectively. Generally speaking Ro32 has a genuinely weak player, a Code S mainstay, and if you’re really unlucky with your group maybe 2 legit top, top tier Code S Koreans
Top Korean players drop out in the Ro32 or sometimes don’t even qualify to Code S, with pretty reasonable frequency.
Maybe Serral would, I somewhat doubt it at least in the Ro32/Ro16 group format.
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Northern Ireland25243 Posts
Serral just doesn’t lose to players like Meomaika or Patience, like ever these days.
I’m honestly not a fanboy, I had a big break from SC2 and when I came back this Serral fellow was about and doing his thing.
He borderline never loses anything meaningful to players who are worse than him, ever. For players who are on his level or close to it they have to play out of their minds to beat him. Be it Stats at HSC or Reynor playing a stylistic brand of ZvZ that Serral has shut down on subsequent occasions .
As a pretty terrible player myself I can still get salty at the amounts of games I’ve lost to stupid coinflippy builds from worse players, it’s impressive how relatively immune Serral is
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On September 18 2019 09:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
Serral just doesn’t lose to players like Meomaika or Patience, like ever these days.
I’m honestly not a fanboy, I had a big break from SC2 and when I came back this Serral fellow was about and doing his thing.
He borderline never loses anything meaningful to players who are worse than him, ever. For players who are on his level or close to it they have to play out of their minds to beat him. Be it Stats at HSC or Reynor playing a stylistic brand of ZvZ that Serral has shut down on subsequent occasions .
As a pretty terrible player myself I can still get salty at the amounts of games I’ve lost to stupid coinflippy builds from worse players, it’s impressive how relatively immune Serral is
Serral's only Meomaika-level loss I remember was against Zhugeliang. Not sure of any others.
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On September 18 2019 08:18 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 07:58 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 03:59 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 03:19 tigon_ridge wrote:On September 18 2019 00:39 deacon.frost wrote:On September 18 2019 00:33 Noa Greenini wrote:On September 18 2019 00:12 deacon.frost wrote:On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote:On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote:[quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments. You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations. I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans. I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost? Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in. Good post. To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals. Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!" Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you? Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-) Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se His domination is following nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it? I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly. Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated. Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose) Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps. "I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly." As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person. "But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)". Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot. he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest. The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many. 2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno. So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs. My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating. Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion. GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there. I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo. @stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be? Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done. If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
I can see Maru and Stats doing similarly well. They probably wouldn't dominate as hard (I could see them dropping series to Special, Neeb, etc) but at same time I feel like they would do a lot better against Reynor than Serral has done. As I see it, Reynor is kind of like Serral's kryptonite in a similar way that Shine was one of the few zerg players that Bisu had a lot of trouble against. Reynor is a good player but he is arguably not top 10 whereas Serral has been consistently a top 2-3 player for a long time now. Overall, Maru and Stats I think would probably win 2-3 out of 4 WCS events (if they replaced Serral).
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Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
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On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc.
Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible?
If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant.
You are the delusional one.
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Not regarding WCS Circuit is fine by me. Then we also need to disregard the Super Tournaments and GSL's and only count the "international" tournaments.
Starting with 2018:
IEM PyeongChang Ro8
IEM Katowice Ro4
WESG 3rd
GSLvWorld 1st
Blizzcon 1st
HSC 18 1st
IEM Katowice Ro8
WESG 2nd
HSC 19 1st
ASUS Ro4
GSLvWorld 1st
11 tournaments, 5 wins, worst placement Ro8
Now who of those
On September 17 2019 23:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2019 23:35 HeroSandro wrote:
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition. so have like 20 koreans
have done this exactly?
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On September 18 2019 16:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
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EPT
