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On September 18 2019 23:21 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 21:08 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 18 2019 20:15 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 18:57 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 18:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 16:43 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one. Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ? I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments. Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners. Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words... On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here  ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'. Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like: On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time. This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible. I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS. Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three. Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
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On September 18 2019 23:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:11 Harris1st wrote:On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense  Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard.And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw) Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
Blizzcon is not the most competetive, don't know where that is coming from.
The reason GSL has been considered the hardest tournament is because all the greatest players in the world played there and the player pool was huge back in the day. Even the S tier koreans risked getting knocked out and not manage to claw themselves out of code A if they were unlucky. Thats just how deep the talent pool was, there is a reason Curious results as a gatekeeper was considered impressive.
IEM katawice this year for example was what GSL code S used to be, all the best players in the world grueling their way through qualifiers trying to get into the event. All the best from korea and all the best from the rest of the world fighting to just get into RO24. Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are examples of players not even managing to get through the offline qualifier. IEM nowadays is the tournament were a RO8 result for example means the most, the way there is generally the hardest in the world.
Code S was the hardest tournament in the world for the same reason IEM is the hardest today.
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It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc).
Serral is probably the favorite against basically any player on the planet, maybe not maru due to tvz but that's speculation.
Serral simply always delivers at an extreme high level no matter when and where, there is no doubt about that.
Saying this makes him the goat though is questionable at best in my eyes, yeah even if he has the best streak ever, highest domination ever, he still lacks the titles needed to really make a claim for himself. This is why i said (elsewhere) that i think there is more justification for the title which shall not be named than there is for the goat one.
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On September 18 2019 23:35 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:23 Fango wrote:On September 18 2019 23:11 Harris1st wrote:On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard.And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw) Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though. Blizzcon is not the most competetive, don't know where that is coming from. The reason GSL has been considered the hardest tournament is because all the greatest players in the world played there and the player pool was huge back in the day. Even the S tier koreans risked getting knocked out and not manage to claw themselves out of code A if they were unlucky. Thats just how deep the talent pool was, there is a reason Curious results as a gatekeeper was considered impressive. IEM katawice this year for example was what GSL code S used to be, all the best players in the world grueling their way through qualifiers trying to get into the event. All the best from korea and all the best from the rest of the world fighting to just get into RO24. Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are examples of players not even managing to get through the offline qualifier. IEM nowadays is the tournament were a RO8 result for example means the most, the way there is generally the hardest in the world. Code S was the hardest tournament in the world for the same reason IEM is the hardest today.
IEM literally has basically the same level of players as GSL does though? Unless the addition of a bunch of EU pros that will never get close to making ro12 makes it that much harder? Remember most of the best foreigners have/do play in Code S (SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb, Reynor, Elazer all have at least).
So if Code S suddenly had an extra 30 players in the qualifiers it would be the same? Even if those 30 never stood a chance?
And Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are also example of players losing in the ro32 or qualifiers of GSL.
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On September 18 2019 23:23 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:11 Harris1st wrote:On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard.And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw) Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
For me when it comes to rating tournaments, I think of prize pool, prestige and difficulty of competition (in order of increasing importance). I would say IEM is 2nd in prize pool, 3rd in prestige and 1st/2nd in difficulty of competition. GSL is 3rd is prize pool, 2nd in prestige and 1st/2nd in difficulty of competition. Blizzcon is 1st in prize pool, 1st in prestige and 3rd in difficulty of competition. It's not often mentioned but I think that, even though Blizzcon is the best tournament to win of the three (I consider it most important by a fair margin), it is probably the easiest to win because there are only 8 Korean players. I consider IEM and GSL to be tied (if I had to say I think IEM is slightly harder) in terms of difficulty because the group stage of IEM is more forgiving than GSL but there is obviously a lot more competition than GSL too. So overall, I'd say Blizzcon > IEM = GSL.
On random note: I'm pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion but I much preferred the old Blizzcon format (no group stages). I think it was more exciting.
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On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc).
A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins.
Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18.
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On September 18 2019 23:46 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc). A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins. Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18.
What i meant with win% is the data of matches/games vs korean opposition someone in this thread presented. It's ridiculously high and in serral's case it translates to tournament wins and high finishes even when not ultimately winning.
Also when i say there is more justification for the B word than for the goat title, that doesn't mean i think it is necessarily justified 
But there absolutely is some aura around serral with his win%, he is always the favorite and actually has incredible results to complement these win% unlike inno did.
All of these things together are absolutely noteworthy and possibly better than the runs you posted.
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On September 18 2019 23:11 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
Pretty much this. GSL doesn't hold much value as before but still a bit more valuable than WCS.
Some people value GSL format over WCS weekender format, vice versa. Either way, I'm not going to disagree too much.
For me I always thought GSL is more like a gimmick. You pick and choose groups. No match up is worth mentioning until at least the RO8. Korean elitist will say nonsense such as "preparation, mind games, and specific builds" > Weekender standard builds. When I watch these specific builds, for me it's like watching a more refined/controlled Has build. I know people will disagree, which I really don't care because that's how I see it.
Most pros and people hold Blizzcon as the pinnacle of success. High prize pool and arguably the hardest tournament to win. That's where all the best players that was consistent to make it to the dance that specific year
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Serral has had a higher winrate vs Koreans 2018-2020, while only facing "harder" koreans (no Losira's or Creator's), than anyone else.
Won X tournaments out of Y, is a silly metric, since in many of those they bombed out, or got rekt in between, and that's the reason Serral's Aligulac rating peak even comparing era to era is unmatched, Life was barely Rank1 even when he was peaking, he was extremely inconsistent, and took huge chances on his games.
Serral has both the EU/KR MMR records for ladder by a 200~ mmr margin.
He simply is the strongest player and most dominant player of any era we've had, if he's the GOAT that's another story.
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Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
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Northern Ireland23721 Posts
On September 18 2019 23:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:46 Fango wrote:On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc). A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins. Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18. What i meant with win% is the data of matches/games vs korean opposition someone in this thread presented. It's ridiculously high and in serral's case it translates to tournament wins and high finishes even when not ultimately winning. Also when i say there is more justification for the B word than for the goat title, that doesn't mean i think it is necessarily justified But there absolutely is some aura around serral with his win%, he is always the favorite and actually has incredible results to complement these win% unlike inno did. All of these things together are absolutely noteworthy and possibly better than the runs you posted.
I still feel the strongest iteration of Inno didn’t actually win all that much vs how good he was, looking back. Maybe that loss to Soulkey threw him a bit, and if he hadn’t got reverse swept he might have cleaned up quite a bit more.
Serral has a slightly different aura to me than Inno, but it’s a hell of an aura. Inno would just crush you with his mechanics and roll you over with parade pushes eventually. You knew what he was going to do but he’d still wreck you.
Serral it’s like playing against a guy who has almost every facet of Zerg play down, and to beat him you have to throw something really clever out. Except somehow he almost always sniffs it out and just crushes you anyway.
Inno was like the unstoppable force, Serral is the immovable object stylistically.
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On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote:
Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
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On September 18 2019 23:58 terribleplayer1 wrote:
Serral has had a higher winrate vs Koreans 2018-2020, while only facing "harder" koreans (no Losira's or Creator's), than anyone else.
Won X tournaments out of Y, is a silly metric, since in many of those they bombed out, or got rekt in between, and that's the reason Serral's Aligulac rating peak even comparing era to era is unmatched, Life was barely Rank1 even when he was peaking, he was extremely inconsistent, and took huge chances on his games.
Serral has both the EU/KR MMR records for ladder by a 200~ mmr margin.
He simply is the strongest player and most dominant player of any era we've had, if he's the GOAT that's another story.
SHHHHhhhh.....You are making too much sense !! You cant say stuff like that in here !!
On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote:
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
Why is it out of line. Isnt B-Word defined something like::
"Bonjwa is a term used to describe a player who dominates the StarCraft scene for a long period of time. A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins."
How in earth hasnt Serral dominated Starcraft ? He has been top dog for 18 months. GOAT can be arguable, but Bonjwa is a stupid discussion because that he already is. He has over 80% winrate against Koreans this year. And most of it against top Koreans. Thats insane. And he is practically a big favourite to win any tournament he enters, and if he is in his top mode there is nobody that can stop him at the moment. Or can you disagree with that ??
And from where have you ever heard these redicilous excuses when talking about some player. If somebody (cough- Maru or some other random Kr) loses to a crappy player:: "Well the xxx used some stupid tactix, was just pure luck bla bla bla.".........When has Serral lost to a weak player ?? Cant remember any in 2 years.
On September 18 2019 08:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS.
Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
On September 18 2019 09:03 IshinShishi wrote:
I dont think WCS means much, I focus on level of play alone and Serral really does seem to be the best player in the world, Maru might have higher peaks, but he is not as consistent, I think its fine to admit that Serral has been a top 2 world player for quite some time now, it's just the reality of things, he's nowhere near goat or bonjwa tho.
"Beat players a level below them".......Like Maru, Inno, Life, Zest etc have done in their regime ? Yes, in GSL too ?
This belittleing of WCS, which has Special, Neeb, Raynor, Showtime, Heromarine, Elazer, Scarlett(at times) at least who are genuinely competitive players. All of these are capable of taking games from Koreans, even from the best ones. GSL vs. the world had: Dark, SoO, Stats, Maru, TY, Trap, Classic and Fantasy from Korea and they all dropped in hands of foreigners before RO4. And yet, Serral has destroyed these players 18 months in a row in WCS. Only Reynor has been able to upset him couple of times in a volatile ZvZ. How is WCS so unrelevant when it has competitive players, who can challenge Koreans ? Then we can say why do you keep taking GSL in account for Maru example, because he has to play only lower caliber players there ?
On September 18 2019 18:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 18:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Yeah, it sounds bad, when its not suitable stat for your agenda, yeah ? Pretty much one of the best facts that you can bring on the table isnt good enough ?
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, delusional cant be awaken.
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On September 19 2019 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote:
Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August. Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
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On September 18 2019 23:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 21:08 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 18 2019 20:15 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 18:57 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 18:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 16:43 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one. Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ? I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments. Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners. Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words... On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'. Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like: On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time. This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible. I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS. Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three. Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks. Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
Alright lets do this then.
Serral
1, 1, 1, RO8, 2, RO4, 1
Rogue
1, 1 ,1, RO32, 1, RO-, RO16
Maru
1, 1, RO8, 1, 1, RO4, RO8
(if you want to look at the next two tournaments afterwards its RO8 and 1)
Rogue results specified:
1 (IEM Shanghai), 1 (Super T 2), 1 (Blizzcon), RO32 (GSL s1), 1 (IEM WC), RO- failed to qualify for WESG, RO16 (Super T 1)
Marus results specified
1 (WESG), 1 (GSL 1), RO8 (Super T1), 1 (GSL 2), 1 (GSL 3), RO4 (GSL vs W), RO8 (Super T2)
Add RO8 (Blizzcon), 1 (GSL 1)
It is clear that if we look at Serrals streak in korean tournaments no one can match it. Rogue cant and Maru cant.
I directly compared Serrals streak of results in the 7 tournaments he has played with top korean opposition with the streaks you mentioned and while Maru does come close he falls short. Where Maru has a RO8 Serral has a silver, even if they overall are extremely close.
I'm not saying Serral has better results than Maru but when it comes to dominating the korean tournaments they have played in Serral comes out on top with the strongest string of results in a row. While Rogues results are impressive when directly compared to Serrals they pale.
Edit: Also this is without even considering wcs, just to be clear.
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From last year August, there are 8 tournaments that both Serral and Koreans participated in: gvw2018, blizcon2018, homestory 18, iem, wesg, rog, homestory 19 and gvw2019.
Serral won 5 of them. All the Koreans combined won 3 of them. Serral just won more champions than all the Koreans combined with the highest winrate against Koreans of all time.
Serral has made those Korean-player fans look like idiots. When Serral comes, those Koreans, who has been hyped by their fans for years, are just proved to be far less talented than Serral. Obviously those fans are angry and embarrassed. There is nothing they can do but irrationally deny how great Serral is .
Same things happened in Chinese SC2 forums: those Chinese fans are trying to attack Serral by racism -- Blizzard prefer white-skin guys than yellow-skin guys. LMAO.
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Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
Dude what? How do you even obtain such numbers? This what I got from checking:
Rogue: 4 out of 6. He won Shanghai then got eliminated in Gsl. Got eliminated in next gsl before winning Kato. Not counting SSL because he was in challenger.
Maru: 4 out of 6. Ok with this one.
Inno: 4 out of 10 (crazy the number of tournaments back in the days). He got eliminated in GSL S1, Kato, GSL ST1, GSL 2, Shanghai and SSL S2 before winning GSL S3.
Zest: 3 out of 6. He lost in Gsl S2, Shenzhen and Toronto before winning Kespa cup.
Life: 3 out of 5: He lost in dreamhack winter and SSL ro4, before winning his gsl.
From liquipedia, taking into account the day of elimination when necessary.
Maybe you have a different method, then explain.
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On September 18 2019 23:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 23:21 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 18 2019 23:00 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 21:08 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 18 2019 20:15 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 18:57 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 18:20 MyLovelyLurker wrote:On September 18 2019 16:43 Charoisaur wrote:On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote:
Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one. Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ? I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments. Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners. Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words... On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'. Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like: On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time. This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible. I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS. Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three. Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks. While I won't go deep into whatever statistical readings you might want, I did this in a thread not too long ago so I'll just copy what I wrote there Serral went 3/8 in big/premier tournaments (with koreans only) in 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them). Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas. INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months. Maru went 4/7 in 7 months. Zest went 3/7 in 8 months. Mvp went 6/12 in 12 months Life went 3/5 in 4 months. And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders. Also an extra fun stat: Zest, Maru, Life, and Rogue made at least ro8 in each event during said streak. INno made ro8 in all but two.
Usual disclaimer: you ignored HSC(for no reason) and you included the international tournaments before GSL vs the World 2018, when Serral had not started his international domination.
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On September 19 2019 01:08 champyT wrote:Show nested quote +Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th. Dude what? How do you even obtain such numbers? This what I got from checking: Rogue: 4 out of 6. He won Shanghai then got eliminated in Gsl. Got eliminated in next gsl before winning Kato. Not counting SSL because he was in challenger. Maru: 4 out of 6. Ok with this one. Inno: 4 out of 10 (crazy the number of tournaments back in the days). He got eliminated in GSL S1, Kato, GSL ST1, GSL 2, Shanghai and SSL S2 before winning GSL S3. Zest: 3 out of 6. He lost in Gsl S2, Shenzhen and Toronto before winning Kespa cup. Life: 3 out of 5: He lost in dreamhack winter and SSL ro4, before winning his gsl. From liquipedia, taking into account the day of elimination when necessary. Maybe you have a different method, then explain.
My bad I did this from my head.
Doesn't change anything though. Maru and Rogue are still 4/6 which is better than Serral's 4/7.
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On September 19 2019 00:41 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 00:19 Charoisaur wrote:On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote:
Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August. Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet! I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything.
I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
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EPT
