The Power Rank returns after an extra-long break, taking into account a flurry of Korean and international tournament activity over the last six weeks. GSL Code S progressed into the semifinal stage, WCS Fall closed out the 2019 Circuit, and GSL vs. The World gave us our final taste of mixed-region competition before the Global Finals. Before we present the rankings, here's a summary of how our monthly list is compiled:
The Power Rank is an aggregate, average ranking of separate lists submitted by individual members of the TeamLiquid.net writing staff.
Criteria considered include, but are not limited to: Tournament placements, overall record, quality of opponents faced, and quality of play.
Recent results are weighted more heavily, but players receive benefit of the doubt for consistent performance over time.
Close, But No Cigar
RagnaroK: We've seen a handful of GSL underdog stories play out this year, but RagnaroK's quarterfinal run in Code S Season 3 might have felt the most 'real.' He had to beat far more established players such as sOs, Zest, and Classic to reach the playoffs, where he put up a surprisingly decent fight against Maru (he even ruthlessly picked apart his BC-mech strategy) before tapping out.
Reynor: The trend of Reynor being a beast on the Circuit but disappointment in international tournaments continued, as the Italian Zerg placed runner-up at WCS Fall shortly after getting swept by SpeCial at GSL vs. The World. Will the 2019 Global Finals be the tournament where he casts off this jinx in a big way?
After lurking just on the outside of the top ten in the last PR, Zest officially enters the rankings after PvP'ing his way to the Code S quarterfinals. Though he couldn’t make it past Rogue in the playoffs (in a rather weak and forgettable series from both players), it continued a trend for Zest where he's earning mid-high placements in every tournament he enters. Zest may not be a title contender, but he takes herO's PR spot as the grind-it-out, pretty good Protoss player.
His biggest weakness right now is clearly PvZ, even saying he'd rather face Stats in PvP than TRUE in a PvZ. Not only was this exemplified in his loss to Rogue, but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series) and his Ro16 loss to RagnaroK. If Zest is to challenge for a BlizzCon spot at Super Tournament II, he'll need to patch-up this weakness quickly.
It’s hard to believe this for a player of Rogue's reputation and skill, but this is his first entry into the top 10 in 2019. But the results speak for themselves: After finishing 2018 by placing top four at the Global Finals, he's had minimal impact in 2019's major tournaments.
A top eight finish in GSL Code S remained his best result—until now. A few days ago, Rogue finally broke his quarterfinal curse in Korean leagues and now stands in the top four of Code S for the first time ever. And while his quarterfinal against Zest was not convincing in any way, his Ro16 matches against Stats and Solar were a much better showcase of his power.
This rise in form comes at an opportune timing, as the BlizzCon race in Korea is still fully ongoing, and Rogue may just be in the right time and place to still make it over the finishing line with strong Code S and Super Tournament performances. It's all about getting hot at the right time, as Rogue showed everyone at the 2017 Global Finals.
TY's decision to become a part-time GSL caster after dropping out of the Ro32 in Code S Season 2 seemed like a transitional move, but his recent run to the Code S top eight reminded us why he's uncontested as Korea's #2 Terran. Unfortunately, for replacement caster soO, TY has been sent back to the casting desk after a close 2-3 loss to Dark in the quarterfinals.
TY has actually been quite unfortunate, getting eliminated from Code S by the best Zerg player in the GSL and also getting eliminated from GSL vs. The World by the best Zerg player, period, in Serral. Faced with some softer competition, TY could have advanced a round or two more and possibly picked up a better Power Rank spot. But these are the results we have to go by, so it's a steady stay at the #8 spot for TY.
When Solar crushed Maru's turtle-mech on Thunderbird, it seemed like he had all the skills needed to make a late push for a Global Finals spot. In playing the the toxic, suffocating late-game Zerg style with BL-Infestor, Solar looked every bit as good as Serral. Unfortunately for Solar, he doesn't have Serral's ability to reach the late-game at will, losing to Maru's revised, bio-centric strategies (to be fair, it's not like Serral plays vs Maru-tier bio pushes on the Circuit). Also, Solar isn't quite the ZvZ player Serral is, losing to Rogue on the cusp of securing a quarterfinal spot.
Despite his disappointing elimination in the Code S group of death, Solar remained a powerful force online. And seeing that he can play best-in-world level StarCraft for at least one game stretches, there's still a chance remaining that he'll succeed at the desperate dash for a BlizzCon spot at Super Tournament II.
Classic seemed to be aging like a fine wine in 2019, but his performances have rapidly began to sour toward the end. Despite coming into his GSL Ro16 group as the seeded player and favorite to advance, he got dismantled by a surging RagnaroK and got out PvPed by Dear, resulting in his first group stage elimination of the year. Combined with his loss to the low-ranked Creator in the round of 32 and 3-3 'tie' against SpeCial at GSL vs. The World (when you include the team match), one has to wonder if he's losing momentum at the most inopportune time.
Should Classic receive permission to travel to BlizzCon from Korea's military, it will be interesting to see if he plays like the title contender we thought him to be all year, or if he's fallen into being 'just' another strong competitor.
Stats quietly slides down the power rankings, having suffered an upset of sorts in his GSL group of death. Stats came in with the most momentum, having defeating Serral to win ASUS ROG and haing swept Maru in GSL vs. The World. And while a player can't be faulted too much for losing to Rogue and Maru, Stats was defeated so thoroughly that everyone was confused by his Jekyll and Hyde like performances. The Ro16 setback exemplified how the reputedly steady Stats has actually been rather inconsistent on the year, both giving up and starring in upsets.
Stats will be thankful that he's still in solid position to make it to BlizzCon, despite this latest setback. The closest competition in TY and Dear are now out of the GSL, and as long as Stats can get any kind of result in the second Super Tournament, he'll lock up a BlizzCon spot (barring the unlikely miracle run from the outsiders). However, he'll need to figure out how to tighten up his game and bring his best play to the Global Finals.
This month, Trap was the victor in the three-way race to be called the best Korean Protoss, putting in solid results all around. Trap dominated his Code S Ro16 group, handily defeating both Cure and TY to reach the playoffs. There, he also dispatched of KeeN in quite a dominant fashion with a 3-0 victory. Trap continued to be an online powerhouse as well, winning both an OlimoLeague Weekly and Monthly Finals for some extra cash (including solid wins vs TRUE, GuMiho, Solar and Cure).
Overall, it's been a good month for Trap, mostly beating the players he should beat, and really only suffering a 'bad' loss to Serral at GSL vs. The World. His PvT series have been looking quite one-sided, and a victory in his upcoming semifinal match against Maru would shoot him even further up the rankings.
It speaks to our faith in Maru that we're quickly hopping back on the bandwagon after a good, but not-entirely-convincing month. He's clearly not the super-dominant Maru of 2018—GSL vs. The World was a low point, where Maru gave up a one-sided 0-3 to Stats for an early exit.
But Code S gave us plenty of reason to hope for the return of god-mode Maru. Yes, he did lose his initial series 1-2 to Solar, and basically admitted that he couldn't mech his way to a win in the late game (unthinkable for prime Maru). But Maru remained composed, changed his strategy, and got his revenge in Solar with aggressive and entertaining bio play. Also, his late-game mastery seemed fully intact against Protoss, as he absolutely destroyed Stats in a series that made you wonder what the hell happened at GSL vs. The World. Maru then took out RagnaroK 3-1 in the Code S quarterfinals—a weird series that saw his mech play undermined again, but where his bio offensive was still overwhelming.
Maru's upcoming match against Trap will help decide whether or not we kick this hype bandwagon into overdrive, and start anticipating that Serral vs Maru showdown months ahead of BlizzCon.
Despite an embarrassing ZvZ undressing at the hands of Elazer at GSL vs. The World, Dark still lands at the #2 spot.
If there was an 'interim Korean champion' title belt, Dark would be the owner by default. After all, he's still the Code S champion from Season 2, reached the Code S semifinals once again this season, and he hasn't lost a match to a Korean opponent since APRIL. It's enough to make us look past his unthinkable upset vs Elazer for now, even with Maru and Trap in fierce pursuit. Also, in a period where there were few matches between top-tier Koreans besides the Code S group of death, it helped Dark's case that he beat TY in the most difficult playoff match.
At long last, Serral has claimed the one accolade missing from his gleaming competitive resume: #1 in the TL.net Power Rank.
While Serral was certainly deserving of the top spot in the months after the 2018 Global Finals, TL.net writers 'robbed' him of such an accolade by putting the Power Rank on hiatus during the off-season after BlizzCon (we did give him our 'Player of the Year' award). Unfortunately, after Serral's relatively slow start to 2019 (losing WCS EU to Reynor, top eight at IEM Katowice), he couldn't lock up the #1 spot once the Power Rank resumed.
This was more a source of consternation for Serral fans on TL.net than Serral himself, who basically told us 'I don't care' when asked about his previous PR placements. In any case, it's finally official. Shout it from the mountain tops! Print this list out and frame it in on your wall! Get a custom trophy made that says "#1 TL Power Rank" and mail it to Serral's house! After showing absolutely dominant form to win both GSL vs. The World and WCS Fall, it's indisputable that Serral belongs at #1.
I am so happy for Serral, this has been the one achievement missing on his mantelpiece for so long now but he has worked so hard for so long and had to overcome so much to do it. Who would have thought it would take 10 premierships in 18 months to accomplish this.
Crazy to think this is Rogue's first top 4 in Code S. Wtf??
Congrats to Serral for being so dominant that TL writers weren't too scared to be honest about power rankings after considering the whining foreign korean fanboys sure to start raging about how Serral has never won a Code S (because he doesn't want to play in it) but also about how foreigners playing in GSL are ruining the korean scene.
On September 14 2019 06:30 IshinShishi wrote: Once again TL with their foreigner bias, cant take these PRs seriously anymore, jesus
I think it's no one that can take you seriously anymore, actually.
On September 14 2019 06:42 onPHYRE wrote: Serral finally did it
I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
Inconsistent logic. Out of those players you listed, three of them even Serral has occasionally lost series to. Dark dropped in a terrible 1-3 series to Elazer. Still a very highly regarded player. The point is, you can't say "player X is not top 10 because player X has lost series to players who are not even in the top 10. That's not the rubric by which you should measure a player's overall strength.
On September 14 2019 10:20 BisuDagger wrote: Good for Serral! This PR was easy. I am more excited to see it in a month. Does winning a GSL bump Serral if he plays in nothing?
It's a good question. I think it will probably sadly be the case that Serral can't hold his spot despite never losing. Of the remaining GSL players Dark is 2, Maru is 3, Trap is 4 and Rogue is 9. Rogue is probably the only one Serral could still be on top of based on the way TL writers have historically significantly weighted GSL wins. Which is kind of weird, one of them has to win by default so Serral can't possibly hold his position even though head to head he is clearly the favourite against any of them.
Basically I think there will be one PR before BlizzCon, which will put whoever wins GSL as number 1 and Serral as 2 or 3. Then Serral will either win BlizzCon and reclaim it, or get anything but victory and fall down the rankings. He is just unfortunate to be in a situation where he is expected to win everything and anything but that is failure.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
Inconsistent logic. Out of those players you listed, three of them even Serral has occasionally lost series to. Dark dropped in a terrible 1-3 series to Elazer. Still a very highly regarded player. The point is, you can't say "player X is not top 10 because player X has lost series to players who are not even in the top 10. That's not the rubric by which you should measure a player's overall strength.
The difference is that example is Dark's only loss this year to a player not in the top 10 (offline). The fact is Reynor has had 5 chances to finish top 10 in an international event this year and he hasn't done it once. Several of those events were double elimination as well so it's hard to argue he's had bad brackets. You say I'm using inconsistent logic but your only real reason for putting Reynor in the top 10 is that he's beat Serral a few times. That's not enough.
Spot on list except swap trap and maru. Trap no doubt going to be number one, just a matter of time. He's recent results and play should put him above maru.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
Inconsistent logic. Out of those players you listed, three of them even Serral has occasionally lost series to. Dark dropped in a terrible 1-3 series to Elazer. Still a very highly regarded player. The point is, you can't say "player X is not top 10 because player X has lost series to players who are not even in the top 10. That's not the rubric by which you should measure a player's overall strength.
Reynor still didn't do anything good in tournament where other player of the top 10 were involved, he almost always placed behind the rest of the top 10 while in tournament with them (or at least tie with them) with of course the exception of Serral in WCS. I would still have him at 10 I think, but it's fair to bump him out
On September 14 2019 12:08 Anc13nt wrote: yeah Serral is a clear #1. He 3-1'd three top koreans in a row GSL vs the World with ruthless efficiency and won Montreal while dropping only 2 maps.
Indeed Serral dropped only one map, a new record. Maintaining his 7350 MMR also. He's been maintaining this level of performance for nearly two years, without showing any sign of a slump. Consistent domination of the SC2 scene.
On September 14 2019 06:30 IshinShishi wrote: Once again TL with their foreigner bias, cant take these PRs seriously anymore, jesus
i think many people dont know alligulac and the elo ratings
in the entire history of sc2
serral is the highest ranked player overal
serral is the highest ranked player vs protoss
serral is the highest ranked player vs terran
maru is the highest ranked player vs zerg serral is the second highest player vs zerg showtime is the third highest player vs zerg
You know saying Showtime got the 3rd ever ranking vs Zerg despite playing like 15 maps against Korean zergs in the last 2 years and having a great, but not out of this world, winrate against zerg despite a bunch of online win vs lower level player dosen't really help to take elo at face value.
Elo ranking have a natural tendency to scale upward with time I think. It's a thing with the equation behind it. (don't ask me why, but I'm sure people better at map than me could explain it)
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
While I agree that Reynor hasn't looked like the kind of player that would ideally populate these rankings, being highly dominant in one league and placing mediocre-ly in most others sounds like a player who is often found on the upper rungs of the Power rankings: Maru.
"Maru's upcoming match against Trap will help decide whether or not we kick this hype bandwagon into overdrive, and start anticipating that Serral vs Maru showdown months ahead of BlizzCon."
Oh no, I don't think the community could handle that again (unless they actually met offline). Well-deserved #1, 'twas a long time coming.
I'm a bit conflicted about Dark's rank. Elazer's victory over him was a pretty significant upset, and his win over TY didn't look super convincing. The 5th map in his 3-2 victory seems pretty heavily anti-terran (0-4 vs zerg and 4-10 vs protoss so far), and TY himself hasn't looked to be at his highest power level recently.
But then again, Dark's record since the start of May has been pretty damn good and I can't see anyone besides maybe Maru, Stats, or Serral who'd be favored over him... so even though it feels weird for him to hold the #2 spot I guess it was the right call!
On September 14 2019 06:30 IshinShishi wrote: Once again TL with their foreigner bias, cant take these PRs seriously anymore, jesus
i think many people dont know alligulac and the elo ratings
in the entire history of sc2
serral is the highest ranked player overal
serral is the highest ranked player vs protoss
serral is the highest ranked player vs terran
maru is the highest ranked player vs zerg serral is the second highest player vs zerg showtime is the third highest player vs zerg
You know saying Showtime got the 3rd ever ranking vs Zerg despite playing like 15 maps against Korean zergs in the last 2 years and having a great, but not out of this world, winrate against zerg despite a bunch of online win vs lower level player dosen't really help to take elo at face value.
Elo ranking have a natural tendency to scale upward with time I think. It's a thing with the equation behind it. (don't ask me why, but I'm sure people better at map than me could explain it)
Yes. New introduced players to the Aligulac ranking lists is the primary cause for rating inflation (they bring new rating points to the system, that then spread over the field), especially those who then soon disappear from it due inactivity. But rating inflation apply equally to all active players. Comparisons in absolute sense between let's say List 200 and List 249 or over some other long time frame doesn't make much sense (as relevancy and accuracy decline more time has gone by), but relative comparisons within same list(s) does.
Higher the gap over your opponents, more higher winning percentage must be maintained to keep still improving in ratings. That's exactly what has happened recently with Serral's ratings; big increases are possible for him only because his win rate has been ridiculously high, sweeping his top level opponents with 3-0, 3-1, 4-1 scores. 3-2, 4-3 type map scores per match against same opponents would likely cause a drop in his ratings, even if he would continue winning. Something like that happened already after 2018 WCS Montreal.
Win rate influence to the 'expected score' of each match, which in turn cause that more higher statistical expectation goes, more higher the win rate must stay to get any improvements to rating.
Aligulac ratings continue to inflate, but that doesn't have impact to comparisons between players within some particular list #XXX. But regardless of the list, its extremely difficult to maintain big gap at the top of it.
Note that Aligulac HOF points is essentially a cumulative sum of rating gaps to each lists top 7, so its value accumulation isn't sensitive to rating inflation.
Edit: clarifications added. Some Aligulac wiz should make further clarifications if needed.
I'm a bit conflicted about Dark's rank. Elazer's victory over him was a pretty significant upset, and his win over TY didn't look super convincing.
Who else would you put rank 2 if not Dark? ...
Yes that was a fluke vs inform Elazer, but its his worst matchup, threw game one , ZvZ is volatile and still was very close. This happens 1 out of 5 times, well it happened.
Againts TY Dark was almost styling without Infestor Brood lords.
Dark is just crazy good and has a very diverse builds and mixes up strats a lot, making him unpredictable.
I'm a bit conflicted about Dark's rank. Elazer's victory over him was a pretty significant upset, and his win over TY didn't look super convincing.
Who else would you put rank 2 if not Dark? ...
Yes that was a fluke vs inform Elazer, but its his worst matchup, threw game one , ZvZ is volatile and still was very close. This happens 1 out of 5 times, well it happened.
Againts TY Dark was almost styling without Infestor Brood lords.
Dark is just crazy good and has a very diverse builds and mixes up strats a lot, making him unpredictable.
Not to mention the fact that Dark used BL infestor heavily in his TvZ earlier in GSL and therefore chose to use ultras vs TY to be unpredictable. Any player confident enough in their overall game to change their style and strat just to disorient his opponents planning has some serious balls. Dark pulled it off and made it look easy, I'm not a fan of Dark but who can't be a fan of how great he is at this game.
I wonder if this means that the power ranking fetish that some TL.net users have is going to lose some intensity or rather return next month with renewed force. My money is on the latter
On September 14 2019 12:08 Anc13nt wrote: yeah Serral is a clear #1. He 3-1'd three top koreans in a row GSL vs the World with ruthless efficiency and won Montreal while dropping only 2 maps.
Wasn't it one map?
you're right. For some reason I thought he lost to some person before losing to Reynor but he did only lose 1 set. I think Serral has 40% chance of winning Blizzcon at the moment unless someone seriously steps up their form.
Dark seems so overrated considering his weakness in zvz, he is not even top 2 in this mu, for sure, his zvp/t are greats but I feel like more well-rounded player should have been rank higher.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
While I agree that Reynor hasn't looked like the kind of player that would ideally populate these rankings, being highly dominant in one league and placing mediocre-ly in most others sounds like a player who is often found on the upper rungs of the Power rankings: Maru.
Agreed, Cure should also be up there since he's doing well in Olimoleague and noobmaster 69 should also be up there since he's doing well in silver league automated tournaments.
On September 14 2019 23:54 stilt wrote: Dark seems so overrated considering his weakness in zvz, he is not even top 2 in this mu, for sure, his zvp/t are greats but I feel like more well-rounded player should have been rank higher.
I don't really see who you put ahead of Dark here other than Serral. There's a case to be made against everyone behind him.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor is only consistent in WCS. In every other event this year he has performed as an average foreigner would and that is a pretty big sample size at this point. IEM, WESG, Assembly, Homestory Cup, GSL vs the world. At all of those events he was only top 16 or worse. And it's not like he was only losing to the best of the best either. He was eliminated by players like Heromarine, Special, and Creator, Ptitdrogo, and Neeb in those events. All very good but none of them have been top 10 in the world at any point this year. Reynor being in the top 10 would definitely be foreigner bias.
While I agree that Reynor hasn't looked like the kind of player that would ideally populate these rankings, being highly dominant in one league and placing mediocre-ly in most others sounds like a player who is often found on the upper rungs of the Power rankings: Maru.
Agreed, Cure should also be up there since he's doing well in Olimoleague and noobmaster 69 should also be up there since he's doing well in silver league automated tournaments.
Hahah that's the best you can do now, right? Reynor might have been #10, he had too weak of a showing at GSL vs the World to justify that but it's not unthinkable the way you seem to suggest.
Problem with Reynor only doing well in WCS is that none of the players he's beating there are top 10 (other than Serral I guess).
No matter how consistently you beat them, if you're only beating people that aren't good enough to be ranked on a PR then you shouldn't be on it either.
They all had one full year to prepare for the World Champion. It must be enough, even then The Champion didn't prepare for any GSL seasons either during 2018 or 2019.
Once, just once TL.net got it right.
Prepare for Serral!
He will defend his title. No free meals. Easier it goes as finally he is unanimously declared the #1 in TL.net Power Ranks. GFS!
It's evidently easier to win BlizzCon than this somewhat questionable "trophy". All foreigners will remember this.
"GSL elites" are better if they remember this. Ofc, it doesn't mean anything as long as Serral doesn't win a GSL series, they say (about that famous preparation time, who is exactly the one who has time to prepare?). Luckily GSL will be a side quest if they cannot win even in such low level weekenders like The GSL vs The World, or The Blizzcon.
There are absolutely no unmentioned remarks here on Top Koreans, its just about how it looks like. No free meals anymore.
I agree, there are room for that "Korean Elitism", traditionally and historically. It's OK. But when the Best player (and some other player(s) too) isn't Korean after about after some 1.5+ years in this era (including several patches) and still they play that same game in their minds...
TL.net writers demonstrated an unprecedented bravery with this Power Rank.
Its simply mindfuck there at "elite grounds". They are those who must DEFEND!
Order of precedence:
#1 of TL.net Monthly Power Rank The Best Player of the World (of a year)
GSL Season Champion Major HST Champion WCS Tournament Champion
Blah. Blah.
Blizzard could just easily organize (low pay) The Elite of The Elites month long, day to day, double elimination tournament of best 32 players with big groups, which would be economically possible for all of those 32 (or what ever) players participating. Currently, they waste money to Top-heavy tournaments (that are deemed meaningless by Korean Elitism of TL.Net).
Intentionally? No sensible corporation would share the primary loots of tournaments that way they do now, if the primary aim would be the longevity of the game (=more profits).
On September 15 2019 00:34 UnLarva wrote: Blah. Blah.
This is an unintentional yet outstanding summary of your post.
Yeah. Intentionally it just painted the basic problem of the system (of past ages if you let me say that).
Blizzard try secure some last failing profits of their "failing" franchise.
You're sure they are eager to pay so much to old mercs, when those mercs would join to fun much more cheaper?
The pile a bank for those old mercs, but even mediocre cut to The Aces' salaries would up keep the next generation, if spread more wisely.
Blah. Blah. Is your kind of people.
What is exactly difference between the Winner claim of 200000 dollars and 100000 dollars, when you look at it from the perspective of continuity of the game, and new coming usurpers?
How about making it reasonable for those new comers?
100000 dollars will move arses of every elite, but those other extra 100000 dollars (if distributed rationally) will ensure the next generation of the elite.
SC2 Brand is enough valuable you can only ruin it if you only look at Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, having no strategic perspective.
Actually, I'm tired to point out the obvious (obvious without any inner circle information).
Blizzard probably shit voluntarily over their own crown jewel, but its not like that nobody warned them about...
If dear Blizzard would've an extra 5 millions for spending in their SC2 division, they would:
A) Increase top-heavy winner pot of SC2 tournament B) Hire few more bureaucrats C) Pay a media campaign for fixing already soiled reputation
Its all absurd to the bones as they have the product and the brand that cannot fail if handled properly.
Properly = as strategic asset, requiring basic level maintain and personnel (winks, winks, that could be easily and cheeply subcontractable), low-level marketing (even more easier (and cheaper), and infrastructure (that is already obsolete relative to a demands of games of the day).
But! But! It doesn't make profit! Those fucking idiots cannot adapt there! They are unable to scale downwards! They are unable to trade a quantity to quality! They cut, cut, cut, when they should invest more. They waste resources to inventing wheel again.
3-7 guys professional team of enthusiasts could maintain whole GEM better than that deeply rotten bureaucracy, set by owners knowing anything, recognizing any other value than dollars/month (even when they could make much more /decade)...
They over pay current elite players, discounting the future. No investments for the future of the competitive scene.
Luckily, SC2 will be the first game to get reverse-engineered by those same guys who aren't admins and devs of the game currently. Shame on you Blizzard!
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor looks pretty bad against top koreans. Only looking good vs Serral isn't enough for top 10. He also plays really gimmicky at times and tries to trick serral. No straight up macro wins.
On September 15 2019 02:07 UnLarva wrote: If dear Blizzard would've an extra 5 millions for spending in their SC2 division, they would:
A) Increase top-heavy winner pot of SC2 tournament B) Hire few more bureaucrats C) Pay a media campaign for fixing already soiled reputation
Its all absurd to the bones as they have the product and the brand that cannot fail if handled properly.
Properly = as strategic asset, requiring basic level maintain and personnel (winks, winks, that could be easily and cheeply subcontractable), low-level marketing (even more easier (and cheaper), and infrastructure (that is already obsolete relative to a demands of games of the day).
But! But! It doesn't make profit! Those fucking idiots cannot adapt there! They are unable to scale downwards! They are unable to trade a quantity to quality! They cut, cut, cut, when they should invest more. They waste resources to inventing wheel again.
3-7 guys professional team of enthusiasts could maintain whole GEM better than that deeply rotten bureaucracy, set by owners knowing anything, recognizing any other value than dollars/month (even when they could make much more /decade)...
They over pay current elite players, discounting the future. No investments for the future of the competitive scene.
Luckily, SC2 will be the first game to get reverse-engineered by those same guys who aren't admins and devs of the game currently. Shame on you Blizzard!
*yawn*
I know you can read MY thoughts boy... Meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
On September 14 2019 23:54 stilt wrote: Dark seems so overrated considering his weakness in zvz, he is not even top 2 in this mu, for sure, his zvp/t are greats but I feel like more well-rounded player should have been rank higher.
I don't really see who you put ahead of Dark here other than Serral. There's a case to be made against everyone behind him.
I'll put Maru considering the new patch, his tvp must have improved a lot (I guess it is his only real downside) and he seems on a very good shape, able to defeat anybody. He would most likely be the big favorite against any foreigner who is not serral (and maybe against neeb, only favorite) whereas Dark should struggle against the top eu zvz.
Edit : Why is Serral's liquipedia page not already edited ? His first place place in the TL ranking should be added.
On September 14 2019 23:54 stilt wrote: Dark seems so overrated considering his weakness in zvz, he is not even top 2 in this mu, for sure, his zvp/t are greats but I feel like more well-rounded player should have been rank higher.
I don't really see who you put ahead of Dark here other than Serral. There's a case to be made against everyone behind him.
I'll put Maru considering the new patch, his tvp must have improved a lot (I guess it is his only real downside) and he seems on a very good shape, able to defeat anybody. He would most likely be the big favorite against any foreigner who is not serral (and maybe against neeb, only favorite) whereas Dark should struggle against the top eu zvz.
I mean aside from the fact that the exact effects of the patch would just be an educated guess and that all in all Maru had a weak August (0-3 in GSL vs World main tournament, barely beat TIME in team match) and shaky start to November (he should have gone out in the Ro16 but Stats was feeling generous), if you dock Dark points for his problems against Elazer and Serral, you should also dock Maru points because he can't beat TY and INnoVation.
On September 14 2019 08:48 tigon_ridge wrote: I always find it funny how much credence people give to opinion pieces. For me, Aligulac is far more accurate. There was never a time since late 2018 that Serral should've fallen to #2, let alone #3. Reynor should also be on the list, but he gets ignored just because he hasn't had enough opportunities to prove himself against the "big league" gsl players. Apparently, taking two series off of the best player in the world twice in one year to win two tournaments doesn't count for much around here. Some idiot claimed that there's a pro-foreigner bias. lol It's the opposite—it's pro-Korean, by far. Yes, we know Koreans dominate this game, but that's no excuse for being so negligent towards Reynor's super-consistent high performance. I think that's almost disrespectful.
Reynor looks pretty bad against top koreans. Only looking good vs Serral isn't enough for top 10. He also plays really gimmicky at times and tries to trick serral. No straight up macro wins.
this is silly. ZvZ is based on trickery, play to win.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
He has been warned at least once and temp banned for two days already, to say the truth.
Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
I'm a fan of Serral. I can respect the opinion that number one may be too high, but not even on the list? I think that is unfair, and I don't think the biggest hater would deny him at least a place on the list. So I find your opinion weird.
On September 14 2019 10:20 BisuDagger wrote: Good for Serral! This PR was easy. I am more excited to see it in a month. Does winning a GSL bump Serral if he plays in nothing?
This is kinda sad. The only thing semi serious for WCS players is NationWars until Blizzcon
EDIT: Just ignore this evanreyes guy. He is some sort of Rodya incarnate or sth...
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
Ah, I see somebody already replied with my exact thought It was funny to see that written by this person.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
I dont know the guy, whether he is gold or not. But the way we had a discussion in another thread proves to me his knowledge of the game is around gold league. Cause no one in the other thread (beside one guy) could make a counter argument against my flank with ghost statement. Most of their response is "lolol you even play Terran?" Those posters are a total waste of my time
He and the other Deacon whatever kid is on my ignore list because both their post are so idiotic it's not even worth replying or reading.
This will be the last time I address this issue and I'm not going to keep entertaining people on this matter.
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
I dont know the guy, whether he is gold or not. But the way we had a discussion in another thread proves to me his knowledge of the game is around gold league. Cause no one in the other thread (beside one guy) could make a counter argument against my flank with ghost statement. Most of their response is "lolol you even play Terran?" Those posters are a total waste of my time
He and the other Deacon whatever kid is on my ignore list because both their post are so idiotic it's not even worth replying or reading.
This will be the last time I address this issue and I'm not going to keep entertaining people on this matter.
I mean people did actually make plenty of counter arguments in that thread, Luolis and me definitely traded multiple posts on it.
On September 16 2019 23:04 Poopi wrote: Rodya was a better troll than what we have nowadays, where is he, BlizzCon is starting soon.
Banned and never coming back.
Wish all trolls would get that treatment
Beware of your desires, they might prove to be dangerous
People are too easily labeled as "trolls" when they express unpopular opinions; evanreyes94, on the other hand, definitely looks like a troll, having spent the majority of his 38 posts shitting on Serral and WCS players before declaring to be a "big fan" of Serral himself.
On September 16 2019 23:04 Poopi wrote: Rodya was a better troll than what we have nowadays, where is he, BlizzCon is starting soon.
Banned and never coming back.
Wish all trolls would get that treatment
Beware of your desires, they might prove to be dangerous
People are too easily labeled as "trolls" when they express unpopular opinions; evanreyes94, on the other hand, definitely looks like a troll, having spent the majority of his 38 posts shitting on Serral and WCS players before declaring to be a "big fan" of Serral himself.
I don't mind the crazy ppl on the subway as long as they don't spit on the other passengers ;o
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
I dont know the guy, whether he is gold or not. But the way we had a discussion in another thread proves to me his knowledge of the game is around gold league. Cause no one in the other thread (beside one guy) could make a counter argument against my flank with ghost statement. Most of their response is "lolol you even play Terran?" Those posters are a total waste of my time
He and the other Deacon whatever kid is on my ignore list because both their post are so idiotic it's not even worth replying or reading.
This will be the last time I address this issue and I'm not going to keep entertaining people on this matter.
I mean people did actually make plenty of counter arguments in that thread, Luolis and me definitely traded multiple posts on it.
You were indeed one of the good posters with replies from that thread. Appreciated it
On September 16 2019 23:04 Poopi wrote: Rodya was a better troll than what we have nowadays, where is he, BlizzCon is starting soon.
Where did usopsama go
He understood Serral was a real threat to his "korean are invincible gods" religion and vanished, even if he briefly came back under another account(literally the original one reversed, weird because he wasn't banned) to randomly hate on foreigners, probably around IEM Katowice(I might be wrong, tho, and I don't really think it's worth to check when this actually happened).
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
One of the worst analogy ever....
On an unrelated note, Jason Terry destroyed and embarrassed Lebron in 2011 Finals
Also Terry nor Lebron is ever close to the GOAT conversation.
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
One of the worst analogy ever....
On an unrelated note, Jason Terry destroyed and embarrassed Lebron in 2011 Finals
Also Terry nor Lebron is ever close to the GOAT conversation.
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
The tone you used is clearly not the one a fan would use, that's evident to everyone.
In any of case, are you sure you have been watching Serral's game in 2018 and in 2019? What you write would make sense if Serral was his 2015 self.
If Terry would have won several championships and Mvp award, there would be no point to criticize him; nobody is overhyping Serral, the world champion, at the moment.
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
One of the worst analogy ever....
On an unrelated note, Jason Terry destroyed and embarrassed Lebron in 2011 Finals
Also Terry nor Lebron is ever close to the GOAT conversation.
I cant tell if you're trolling
I dont troll about fact
You might want to check 2011 Final stats or even rewatch the 2011 finals
On September 16 2019 15:48 evanreyes94 wrote: Bottomline: Serral should not be number one in my humble opinion. He should not even be in the top 10. Serral is my absolute favorite player of all time. That being said, I have to be honest and objective and declare that Serral is not a top player.
I mean, just because I like a player doesn't mean I have to think they are the best. I like his calm demeanor and that he is Finish. But as a big fan, I would be wrong and delusional in saying that Serral deserves top 10.
"Another foreigner on a luck streak", "doesn't hold a candle(to the ones) who played in GSL", "Stephano>Reynor>Serral", "Stephano is currently the best foreigner in the world", "Maru>Serral...if he can beat Ragnarok", "Serral is a top 5 foreign Zerg all time...there is objectivity", "Serral got heavily outplayed by Heromarine, then Heromarine threw the game...it could be matchfixing", "Heromarine is leaps and bound better than Serral", "Reynor is so much better than Serral", "Serral can't play late game vs any race, the only games he won were when he cheesed or did some sort of weird timing and was lucky", "All this Serral kid did was Nydus rush...everyone knows it", "You see where else I see nothing but Nydus Worms? Bronze League Hero", "Terran is the hardest race...Maru>>>>Serral...all Serral needs to do is to spam Nydus Worms to win early game or spam Broodlords Infestor to win late game...WCS players rely on the easiest race to play+patches to get more foreign viewers".
Those are your words. Such a big fan of Serral...or maybe a huge troll?
No I'm not a troll at all. I am a huge Serral fan. Probably the biggest Serral fans you'll ever meet. With that being said, that is why I am critical of Serral instead of blindly jumping on the bandwagon and calling him the best player ever. If you pay close attention to my past posts, you'll see that I am just being critical of him.
Here is an analogy. I am a big fan of Jason Terry. HUGE fan. Really love the guy. But it's clear that someone like LeBron James is much better and clearly a better player than him. As a fan, I have a duty to point out flaws of my favorite players and stop any delusions that non-fans have. If anything, people that overhype Serral is providing more fuel for the Serral haters. I'm simply telling everyone how it is.
The tone you used is clearly not the one a fan would use, that's evident to everyone.
In any of case, are you sure you have been watching Serral's game in 2018 and in 2019? What you write would make sense if Serral was his 2015 self.
If Terry would have won several championships and Mvp award, there would be no point to criticize him; nobody is overhyping Serral, the world champion, at the moment.
Yes, I am aware that 2015 Serral was not the best. The Serral that I am being critical towards is the 2018-19 Serral. Everyone has their flaws, and Serral not being a top 10 player in the world or a top top 5 zerg in the world is just critique. I'm not sure why people can't handle a little criticism these days. I'm not sure why listing a couple of facts about my favorite player is trolling. All I am doing is simply saying that Serral is not a top 10 player, and that Stephano, Reynor, Trap, Dark, etc are all leaps and bounds above Serral.
Yes, I am aware that 2015 Serral was not the best. The Serral that I am being critical towards is the 2018-19 Serral. Everyone has their flaws, and Serral not being a top 10 player in the world or a top top 5 zerg in the world is just critique. I'm not sure why people can't handle a little criticism these days. I'm not sure why listing a couple of facts about my favorite player is trolling. All I am doing is simply saying that Serral is not a top 10 player, and that Stephano, Reynor, Trap, Dark, etc are all leaps and bounds above Serral.
Okay. When something gets like two years old, it kinda gets old, you know ? You are "bit" late to this party. Most of your predecessors have already quit or moved elsewhere, but you didnt get the memo ?
On September 17 2019 02:13 Waxangel wrote:
I don't mind the crazy ppl on the subway as long as they don't spit on the other passengers ;o
So, why no ban yet ? Or waiting somebody to take the bait ?
Yes, I am aware that 2015 Serral was not the best. The Serral that I am being critical towards is the 2018-19 Serral. Everyone has their flaws, and Serral not being a top 10 player in the world or a top top 5 zerg in the world is just critique. I'm not sure why people can't handle a little criticism these days. I'm not sure why listing a couple of facts about my favorite player is trolling. All I am doing is simply saying that Serral is not a top 10 player, and that Stephano, Reynor, Trap, Dark, etc are all leaps and bounds above Serral.
Okay. When something gets like two years old, it kinda gets old, you know ? You are "bit" late to this party. Most of your predecessors have already quit or moved elsewhere, but you didnt get the memo ?
I don't mind the crazy ppl on the subway as long as they don't spit on the other passengers ;o
So, why no ban yet ? Or waiting somebody to take the bait ?
Why ban someone that you simply disagree with? I don't report you or ask for you to be banned just because you think Serral is a top 10 player of 2018-19.
I don't know, the list feels pretty right but at the same time there are some questionable decisions, I think Rogue has a serious shot at beating Dark in the upcoming GSL match but we'll see... I'd also swap Trap and Maru.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Shuffleblade wrote: Holy canoley, banning trolls doesn't work, the only thing that works is you know, don't feed them.
Banning troll seems like a tried and true method of getting rid of troll, works pretty well on TL if you ask me, sometime it take 4-5 bans to get it through but it's pretty rare someone keep it up for that too long.
You’re a pretty terrible troll if everyone thinks you’re a troll, aren’t you supposed to do it with some degree of subtlety and make it plausible that you have the opinions you do?
On September 15 2019 03:49 Shuffleblade wrote: When the rabid ones gets what they want it just gets worse Its kinda hilarious.
Maru will be on top again after taking back his throne after the next GSL finals anyhow =D
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
I dont know the guy, whether he is gold or not. But the way we had a discussion in another thread proves to me his knowledge of the game is around gold league. Cause no one in the other thread (beside one guy) could make a counter argument against my flank with ghost statement. Most of their response is "lolol you even play Terran?" Those posters are a total waste of my time
He and the other Deacon whatever kid is on my ignore list because both their post are so idiotic it's not even worth replying or reading.
This will be the last time I address this issue and I'm not going to keep entertaining people on this matter.
Golden league knowledge yet Luolis plays in GM, GM knowledge yet you say you play in low masters. I don't know how people without the knowledge can play above you, care to explain?
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
Oh, indeed he was. I'm almost displeased he was banned before I could reply one last time. A righteous ban, I have to say.
On September 17 2019 06:55 Wombat_NI wrote: You’re a pretty terrible troll if everyone thinks you’re a troll, aren’t you supposed to do it with some degree of subtlety and make it plausible that you have the opinions you do?
In a sense I do think we should kinda applaud him.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
I feel like this thread should come with complimentary hazmat suits .
I guess it was bound to happen with all the heated discussion around Serral for the last year. The "best player" discussion is only gonna get more interesting if Maru takes down another GSL. Exciting times for all! (Except for the mods. Poor mods ;_;)
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Pretty sure you are misinterpreting what happened here. Also, I fully agree with evanreyes(now living in Finland, apparently....): Zest being #10 is a questionable decision.
As for MARY, even if that was the case, he would fail at Super Tournament(not to mention BlizzCon) and quickly abandon his newfound #1.
The only questionable decision is putting Serral at #1. Did ENCE pay off TL or something?
Easily exposed.
The only questionable decision is the one you took when you registered an account with the sole intention of trolling and hating on Serral; your words are vain, the overwhelming evidence is that our finnish friend absolutely deserves the #1 spot and that ENCE's money is well spent on Serral's salary.
I think you got baited mate. Dont let him drag you under the bridge.
Don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! His is not a lone bait, the majority of his posts sound like that one.
I swear some of these troll accts must be created by some of the TL mods themselves to create traffic and replies
He has yet to be warned or temp ban for these nonsense, yet we see other posters getting warned and banned for less shiet
Am I seeing this right? The guy who called Luolis a gold player is complaining about trolls not being actioned?
I dont know the guy, whether he is gold or not. But the way we had a discussion in another thread proves to me his knowledge of the game is around gold league. Cause no one in the other thread (beside one guy) could make a counter argument against my flank with ghost statement. Most of their response is "lolol you even play Terran?" Those posters are a total waste of my time
He and the other Deacon whatever kid is on my ignore list because both their post are so idiotic it's not even worth replying or reading.
This will be the last time I address this issue and I'm not going to keep entertaining people on this matter.
I mean people did actually make plenty of counter arguments in that thread, Luolis and me definitely traded multiple posts on it.
You were indeed one of the good posters with replies from that thread. Appreciated it
I could communicate with Wombat just fine. Maybe you are the problem? )))
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Wtf is that, you're literaly going insane Oo
Serral's success is slowly driving our Deacon friend mad. Don't worry, just wait for Maru to win the next Code S and he will be back in shape; meanwhile, let's all openly worship any kind of Starleague ever existed, we'll give him hope and strenght.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
so have like 20 koreans
So many tournaments in so little time, being this dominant? Very few koreans. And, to this, you have to add Serral's "worthless" WCS victories.
Also, to KobeSteak: Serral not going to Code S has nothing to do with money, it's because he doesn't want to stay in korea for more than three months. If Code S would last one month, maybe six week, Serral would go for sure.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
so have like 20 koreans
So many tournaments in so little time, being this dominant? Very few koreans. And, to this, you have to add Serral's "worthless" WCS victories.
Also, to KobeSteak: Serral not going to Code S has nothing to do with money, it's because he doesn't want to stay in korea for more than three months. If Code S would last one month, maybe six week, Serral would go for sure.
Can someone else confirm this for me as well? I'm pretty sure he mention it was because he didn't want to be away from his family and money. I could be wrong
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
so have like 20 koreans
Great for those koreans! I really liked DRG in the olden days.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
so have like 20 koreans
So many tournaments in so little time, being this dominant? Very few koreans. And, to this, you have to add Serral's "worthless" WCS victories.
Also, to KobeSteak: Serral not going to Code S has nothing to do with money, it's because he doesn't want to stay in korea for more than three months. If Code S would last one month, maybe six week, Serral would go for sure.
Can someone else confirm this for me as well? I'm pretty sure he mention it was because he didn't want to be away from his family and money. I could be wrong
Thanks for pointing this out
Protosser is in Korea at the moment. Serral's interview on TL after HSC(or BlizzCon) is the one where he openly states time is the biggest issues(Serral doesn't mind going to korea); he never mentioned money, as far as I know.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less. Maybe Maru should start just not playing in weekend tournaments. That way people would worship him as much for being invincible as they do with Serral.
To be fair, Serral has won multiple tournaments with "real" competition.
so have like 20 koreans
So many tournaments in so little time, being this dominant? Very few koreans. And, to this, you have to add Serral's "worthless" WCS victories.
Also, to KobeSteak: Serral not going to Code S has nothing to do with money, it's because he doesn't want to stay in korea for more than three months. If Code S would last one month, maybe six week, Serral would go for sure.
Can someone else confirm this for me as well? I'm pretty sure he mention it was because he didn't want to be away from his family and money. I could be wrong
Thanks for pointing this out
Protosser is in Korea at the moment. Serral's interview on TL after HSC(or BlizzCon) is the one where he openly states time is the biggest issues(Serral doesn't mind going to korea); he never mentioned money, as far as I know.
Just want another poster to confirm this before I edited out the money part in my previous post
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
That's called GSL vs the World, and we know how that tends to play out for Maru...
If you're calling on weekenders to help your case, your whataboutism is grasping at straws.
Since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches vs Koreans, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Can we discuss these facts, instead of location hypotheticals ?
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
That's called GSL vs the World, and we know how that tends to play out for Maru...
If you're calling on weekenders to help your case, your whataboutism is grasping at straws.
Since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches vs Koreans, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Can we discuss these facts, instead of location hypotheticals ?
Which is even more impressive than it looks really as Serral tends to only be playing elite Koreans when he does meet them in a tournament.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
On September 17 2019 05:31 Dave4 wrote: The moderators have deemed his conduct acceptable. Please refrain from calling people trolls unless a moderator has confirmed this to be the case.
User was temp banned for this post.
This post just became some weird meta statement.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
I suggest more people do what I do and just ignore deacon kid. No one should be wasting their valuable time replying and let alone read his posts
I already put him on my ignore list and never read his posts. He is very uneducated and has no knowledge of the game to even form a credible opinion or statement.
Don't feed the trolls, let them rant alone and eventually they will go away
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
It's simply undeniable that Serral achieved what no one ever did before; you are partially right since there were players who came close to Serral's level of domination speaking of tournament streak or win ratio(not both), but Serral's numbers are simply better overall. Be sure that Serral would be in contention for being one of the most dominant players ever even considering international tournaments only, you are undervaluing both his huge winstreak and his average placement when he was eliminated.
The role of the victim does not suit you, this forum has been dominated by korean elitists for countless years while now other points of view have gained strenght; what makes you a hater in the mind of the "Serral cult" is your unbearably low consideration of WCS tournaments. And yet you speak of toxicity...
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
That's called GSL vs the World, and we know how that tends to play out for Maru...
If you're calling on weekenders to help your case, your whataboutism is grasping at straws.
Since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches vs Koreans, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Can we discuss these facts, instead of location hypotheticals ?
Which is even more impressive than it looks really as Serral tends to only be playing elite Koreans when he does meet them in a tournament.
Yes absolutely ! Thanks for picking this up. I deliberately chose these stats out of intellectual honesty, as I believe they're on the conservative side - the Koreans that make it to GSL vs the World or Blizzcon are definitely better than those in defunct GSL code A.
At least Serral fans, maybe OTT sure but it’s kinda understandable. The foreign scene has waited for absolutely forever for someone who can consistently hang with Korea’s best, peak Neeb it’s often not really mentioned was the first to really hit they kind of level, Stephano to a degree as well.
Then Serral comes along and way exceeds that benchmark and can be argued as having periods of being the world’s best player, of course people are going to be pretty excited about that.
It’s hyperbolic at times sure, at least there’s something solid to be hyperbolic about.
I don’t particularly like throwing out the tag but the ‘Korean elitists’ are the ones who are jumping through weird hoops to not give Serral his due credit, least as far as it looks from where I’m standing. It’s often not some counterbalancing of annoying Serral fanboy behaviour, it swings the scale way too far in the other direction.
Stats and trophies and actual gameplay aside, the top Korean players rate the guy as if not THE best player in the world, then up there amongst the top few. If those guys at that level who have to actually play the guy, come up with builds and strats to actually beat him all say he’s the man currently, who are we to argue?
Maybe Maru on song is the scariest player to face currently, but Serral’s consistency is insane, and it’s over one hell of a long period now.
Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
Is this joke ? Since last year, you and deacon devote most of your numerous posts to troll, to provoke and downplay serral's performances but when people are calling you for it, you're crying. Like seriously, you post way more in wcs by spitting your hatred/salt/rensentment (call it as you want but overall that's a lot of negativity) than gsl threads. I don't know if I am supposed to cry or laugh maybe both but I sincerely suggest you to take some distances with sc2, you really need to relativize and stop believing you're persecuted. Your attitude is toxic (just like korean starcraft is dying, I hope the rest dies as well), being happy about a player's win is not.
On September 17 2019 16:30 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] Hahaha that made my day, that was amazing, like a prophet digging his own grave
Serral has been S class forever, if he wins blizzcon and homestory this year I'm starting to feel the B word. Or we should just make up a new word in SC2 for a player dominating as hard as Serral consistently for over a year.
Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Rogue’s period was similarly impressive, however he actively failed to translate that to the GSL. Whether Serral would is of course an unknown, but it is an unknown. ‘What about the StarLeague format?’ is absolutely something I’d personally love Serral to have an actual crack. Rogue did have that crack and fell relatively short, although unbelievably impressive elsewhere.
The others absolutely, although even then their consistency isn’t quite of the same level if we look at tournament results closely.
That said , in my many years of watching this game, I don’t recall anyone having that total aura of near invincibility that Innovation had at his absolute peak (relative to the scene), when he had something like a 93% vZ win rate. He still did lose to Soulkey, but he was the scariest, best player in the world at that time. Likewise Life at times was similarly god tier, even if looking at results there’s the odd tournament he underperformed in.
Also Serral is relatively unique in he has steadily improved, is peaking, or at least remaining close to his top game. Zest on the other hand, not so much.
I don’t think this means Serral is better than Zest historically speaking, but it’s hard to compare a guy who has steadily risen and yet to slump, vs a guy who has clearly slumped from his peak.
On September 17 2019 20:14 deacon.frost wrote: [quote] Forever? e.g. 2015? or 2016? or 2017? Interesting claim.
Edit> also still no starleague When people were demanding this new word for Maru, many people went into BUT NO WEEKENDERS!@#!$!$ We can see he's bad at weekenders(he's not), so how about - BUT NO PREPARATIONAL TOURNAMENTS, HURR DURR!@#!$!$!
Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done.
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done.
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
Aside from Koreans, no foreigner has ever dominated foreigners as thoroughly as Serral does, ever. Outside of maybe peak Neeb, although even that isn’t quite as comprehensive.
Going back historically I mean even when Jinro was making GSL Ro4s, Idra was doing well in GSLs, Huk was hukking it up NaNiwa made his Ro8s, Stephano was Stephanoing, Scarlett was getting her IEM Pyeonchang, whenever really.
None of those guys actually translated that to absolutely dominating other foreigners, granted the tournament structures were different in those days, so it’s hard to directly compare.
There’s not really been a time where a singular player either wins a tournament or loses in a final in like, actually every single foreigner tournament.
It is hard to compare directly I guess as I’m on a phone and couldn’t be arsed poring over Liquipedia. If we’re to directly transplant to that era with its more frequent weekenders that have Korean involvement, it would be like a player who is either the highest placing foreigner, or only lost directly to the other highest placing foreigner for every big tournament for two years
On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS. Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
I dont think WCS means much, I focus on level of play alone and Serral really does seem to be the best player in the world, Maru might have higher peaks, but he is not as consistent, I think its fine to admit that Serral has been a top 2 world player for quite some time now, it's just the reality of things, he's nowhere near goat or bonjwa tho.
On September 17 2019 23:43 KobeSteak wrote: [quote]
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS. Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
I don’t really think the circuit is that relevant, it’s the consistency that basically nobody else, has matched that is impressive.
I’m not sure exactly how we would mesh the two together, or what’s equivalent comparing GSL to WCS, so it’s difficult to compare them directly.
Let’s just be crude and say GSL Ro16 is vaguely equivalent to WCS Ro8, perhaps the Ro4 given Special has made 2 Ro16s and a final and a Ro4 recently respectively. Generally speaking Ro32 has a genuinely weak player, a Code S mainstay, and if you’re really unlucky with your group maybe 2 legit top, top tier Code S Koreans
Top Korean players drop out in the Ro32 or sometimes don’t even qualify to Code S, with pretty reasonable frequency.
Maybe Serral would, I somewhat doubt it at least in the Ro32/Ro16 group format.
Serral just doesn’t lose to players like Meomaika or Patience, like ever these days.
I’m honestly not a fanboy, I had a big break from SC2 and when I came back this Serral fellow was about and doing his thing.
He borderline never loses anything meaningful to players who are worse than him, ever. For players who are on his level or close to it they have to play out of their minds to beat him. Be it Stats at HSC or Reynor playing a stylistic brand of ZvZ that Serral has shut down on subsequent occasions .
As a pretty terrible player myself I can still get salty at the amounts of games I’ve lost to stupid coinflippy builds from worse players, it’s impressive how relatively immune Serral is
On September 18 2019 09:21 Wombat_NI wrote: Serral just doesn’t lose to players like Meomaika or Patience, like ever these days.
I’m honestly not a fanboy, I had a big break from SC2 and when I came back this Serral fellow was about and doing his thing.
He borderline never loses anything meaningful to players who are worse than him, ever. For players who are on his level or close to it they have to play out of their minds to beat him. Be it Stats at HSC or Reynor playing a stylistic brand of ZvZ that Serral has shut down on subsequent occasions .
As a pretty terrible player myself I can still get salty at the amounts of games I’ve lost to stupid coinflippy builds from worse players, it’s impressive how relatively immune Serral is
Serral's only Meomaika-level loss I remember was against Zhugeliang. Not sure of any others.
On September 17 2019 23:19 Shuffleblade wrote: [quote] Haha indeed forever is an interesting claim
Forever in Starcraft 2 time that is :p No one ever has been as dominant as Serral for this long, usually even the best players win a tournament and then loses in RO8 for the next two tournaments.
You can't really compare Maru to Serral that way, Serral hasn't lost in GSL multiple times, he haven't tried. Maru has tried and failed multiple times (sure he has won as well and I wouldn't call him bad but not dominating) that two different situations.
I used to say wcs victories weren't worth shit and I believed any of the top 5 koreans could do what Serral did in wcs but I can't really claim that anymore can I. Not after seeing how strongly foreigners are showing up vs koreans.
I love Maru and I think you could argue for Maru being Bonjwa but 2018 he lost IEM vs Rogue in RO4, in super tournament he lost in RO8 vs Classic, in GSL vs the world he lost in RO4 vs Stats, in super tournament 2 he lost in RO8 vs sOs and at the world championship he lost in RO8 vs sOs. That is a bit too weak to be called bonjwa I would say. From may 2018 to today what tournaments have Serral lost?
Edit: Note that we are talking about tournaments he actually participated in.
Good post.
To add to your point. It took Maru 6-7 years and ~15 GSL tries to make it to his first Code S finals.
Most of Serral lost from 2018 till now was to the eventual tournament champion. e.g sOO, Inno, stats, Rey. Cant say the same for Maru lost
Then again, then only thing left for the Serral haters/ Maru fans is "Serral is dodging GSL! where real competition is at!"
Serral has said many times he will not play in GSL because it is not financially worth it. If all the haters wants to see him play in GSL, go create a "go fund me" for $100,000 and sponsor Serral to go and make it worth his time. All these haters need to put money where their mouth is, otherwise sit down, shut up, and witness greatness
It took SErral 6 years to win something, you realize he started playing much sooner than 2018, do you?
Edit> We can say the same for you, fund MAru for a WCS, get the visas going, get him the monies and I bet with enough money he will go to the WCS Put the money where your mouth is? It works both way
It would work both ways if they were hating on Maru lmao, but they don't so no. The onus is on you ;-) people like you make me a Serral fanboy because reading you squirm is just so satisfying, and as a Terran player I'm neither upset when Serral loses :-)
Imma not hating on Serral, I'm just saying he's not banjo nor any other term because he's playing the best rarely and even then doesn't dominate them per se
His domination is following
nothing. nothing. ST, Blizzcon, HSC. nothing. nothing. ST. I consider him top4 player so his domination should be winning the tourney, shouldn't it?
I don't get where you get I'm hating on SErral, I hate SErral fans, I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly.
Edit> missed one nothing for ROG but feel free to fill in the Korean tourneys he dominated.
Edit2> disagreeing is now hating? wonderful world we live in
Top late edit> BTW I don't think he failed or did bad at the "nothing" tourneys, but he didn't dominate them nor the scene. He is playing awesome SC2 for a foreigner. He's very consistent and for sure the top4 player. But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)
Normally, I ignore your stupid rants, but whenever you post blatant misinfo, someone has to correct you. It's not just one HSC, it's two. In these so-called "nothings" you harp upon, he'd gone far into them, and (as was stated before many times by others) was only knocked out by the eventual winner, more often than not in close series. In every WCS, he did dominate most parts of them, having dropped very few maps.
"I don't hate him personally. At least not yet, but his fans are getting me there slowly."
As if you haven't alraedy exposed yourself already as an extremely partial and uninformed person, who needs to be corrected time and time again, you further compound that with this irrational statement to show that your mindset is so toxic and weak that it requires others to conform to your perspective. Otherwise, you go apes#@$ and may even hate on a totally undeserving person.
"But there always be the question - what if he played more often against Koreans? (because the more you play them the more they know you and the more you lose)".
Pointless statement. Hardly anyone wants to spend 2-3 months in a foreign country just for a mid-size tournament. Serral is playing against the Koreans frequently enough as it is. With IEM, WESG, two HSC, ROG, GSL vs TW, and WCS Final, there are plenty of opportunities for the Koreans to test themselves against the champion. You make it seem as if it's so few. Even if he does participate in one GSL, that would only be another one out of 8 total tournaments. It's moot.
he's not wrong on Serral fanboys on this website being extremely toxic though. He's the best foreigner ever and one of the most dominant players we've seen but his fanboys for some reason aren't satisfied with that and constantly spew their propaganda that Serral is this untouchable god who dominates the game harder than anyone has ever before which is horseshit of course and the only reason he's even in consideration for "most dominant player" is that his results are massively boosted by region-locked WCS. Remove those results and what's left? out of the last 7 non-WCS premier tournaments Serral won 4. Impressive but not something other players haven't done before. Mvp, Zest, Life, Rogue, Maru and INnoVation have all had a similar streak. But pointing this out makes you a hater in the mind of the TL-Serral-cult
My first point is that even if you remove wcs from the equation Serrals 2018 run of domination is only matched by a select few koreans like Maru, MVP and Zest.
The first premier tournaments against koreans Serral won was GSL vs the world 2018, after that he won every tournament he entered 2018, which includes the global finals and HSC. Even without even considering wcs that is a massive feat, who else have won three korean stacked tournaments in a row, it is not many.
2019 he goes out out RO8 against eventual champion soO but besides that he has one semifinal loss against Stats and one loss in the finals against Inno.
So out of six tournaments against S level koreans he has 3 gold, 1 silver, 1 semifinals and 1 quarterfinals. In terms of consistency few can match that streak and that is without even considering wcs.
My second point is that going by GSL vs the world wcs cant really be considered as much below the korean level as before. Wcs is obviously very close to the korean level, if winning wcs really is so simple how come so many koreans are losing vs foreigners, the same foreigners Serral is consistently dominating.
Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
GSL vs the world was 1 tournament out of like 10 in the last 2 years (the period of Serral's "domination") and all the other ones were heavily korean dominated with the exception of Serral. I don't think this shows that all the WCS tournaments in the last 2 years should be treated equally or even close to GSL. ASUS ROG just the week before that was korean dominated despite the best koreans not even playing there.
I agree with your other points but don't think this puts him clearly above Inno's, Zest's, Rogue's or Life's domination. They are all pretty neck to neck imo.
@stilt thanks for proving my point. As soon as someone mentions the possibility that other players may be close to Serral in some aspect (this time dominance at their peaks) the most fanatic Serral fanboys instantly call you a troll and a hater because they can't have a proper discussion and get personally offended when someone doubts their god. What exactly makes me a "hater" except not accepting Serral as the GOAT bonjwa you want him to be?
Yeah gsl vs the world was unique but even if you look at asus rog which was korean dominated it wasn't as one sided at it looks. In Groups Showtime took Stats down, Reynor, Time and Showtime took down Ragnarok, Gumiho was 2-2 in matches vs Heromarine it just happened to be won in the right order by Gumi. While there were a lot of korean slapdowns of foreigners, I believe the results does show that foreigners are vastly improved. I simply don't believe any korean (besides maybe Maru) could replicate the dominance in wcs that Serral has done.
If you think literally anyone in the top 10 could redo what Serral has done in wcs is they played there then I understand where you are coming from but I really don't share that belief.
I can see Maru and Stats doing similarly well. They probably wouldn't dominate as hard (I could see them dropping series to Special, Neeb, etc) but at same time I feel like they would do a lot better against Reynor than Serral has done. As I see it, Reynor is kind of like Serral's kryptonite in a similar way that Shine was one of the few zerg players that Bisu had a lot of trouble against. Reynor is a good player but he is arguably not top 10 whereas Serral has been consistently a top 2-3 player for a long time now. Overall, Maru and Stats I think would probably win 2-3 out of 4 WCS events (if they replaced Serral).
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Not regarding WCS Circuit is fine by me. Then we also need to disregard the Super Tournaments and GSL's and only count the "international" tournaments.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I think compared to other player's peaks in LotV, Serral's is the best but not by a long shot. Inno had very similar winrate in his peak (over far more games) while Maru and Rogue (especially if Maru wins this GSL) have been around as good in terms of winning a high percentage of big tournaments during their peak. Arguably, in 2018 Maru had a better peak in terms of the prestige of the tournaments he won (this depends on how you value WCS, which I value as being worth a GSL semifinal).
That said, what Serral has that is special is that he has kept up his peak for a very long time. Maru has as well (considering he might win 2/3 GSL this year) but has looked a lot more shaky with considerably worse winrates. Innovation and Rogue both had a much shorter peak than Serral too, even though it was arguably nearly as bright when it happened. In summary, there have been players who matched a component of Serral's peak but I don't think anyone has matched all of them, particularly his consistency.
However, to say people are delusional for questioning whether he has greatest peak I think is not fair. It's not really delusional to question whether his peak is the greatest because the competition isn't as deep among other reasons. If Maru won 3 GSLs in a row in HotS, he would be called bonjwa or GOAT but many people point out that nowadays GSL isn't what it was. If so, they have to apply this the same way to Serral; they can't have their cake and eat it too. In spite of these considerations, I believe he still has the greatest pea.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I think compared to other player's peaks in LotV, Serral's is the best but not by a long shot. Inno had very similar winrate in his peak (over far more games) while Maru and Rogue (especially if Maru wins this GSL) have been around as good in terms of winning a high percentage of big tournaments during their peak. Arguably, in 2018 Maru had a better peak in terms of the prestige of the tournaments he won (this depends on how you value WCS, which I value as being worth a GSL semifinal).
That said, what Serral has that is special is that he has kept up his peak for a very long time. Maru has as well (considering he might win 2/3 GSL this year) but has looked a lot more shaky with considerably worse winrates. Innovation and Rogue both had a much shorter peak than Serral too, even though it was arguably nearly as bright when it happened. In summary, there have been players who matched a component of Serral's peak but I don't think anyone has matched all of them, particularly his consistency.
However, to say people are delusional for questioning whether he has greatest peak I think is not fair. It's not really delusional to question whether his peak is the greatest because the competition isn't as deep among other reasons. If Maru won 3 GSLs in a row in HotS, he would be called bonjwa or GOAT but many people point out that nowadays GSL isn't what it was. If so, they have to apply this the same way to Serral; they can't have their cake and eat it too. In spite of these considerations, I believe he still has the greatest pea.
I believe these are great points, thanks for making them. Precisely as you mention, no single player will be uniformly the best across a wide range of estimators, which is why you need several of them, maybe by considering several time horizons; and due to variance biases in Aligulac reverting to vs Kor winrates over X amount of time makes the most sense.
On the final point, it's relatively easy to denoise this, either by using an 'average top 8 korean' as a baseline for Aligulac ranking (differences in ELO don't drift over time), or by calling on some predictive value of winrates and make relatively safe statements like 'conditional on reaching Ro8, which he's always done, Serral would have more than 50% chance of winning GSL should he enter it, which means he'd win 1 if not 2 in a full season, with high probability'.
When I get a sec and I'm done writing a couple papers, I'll fire up Python and do the data science for other players - Serral looks slightly better than Maru but like you said, I am curious as to how Innovation, Life or Rogue have fared historically on that measure.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Well, Maru faces koreans much more often and thus has a much larger sample size of games. Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games. Thus the stats you looked at naturally favor Serral.
1. Serral started winning in 2018 and he is already earned the second most price money in SC2 history. 2. He has held the top spot on Aligulac for more than 1.5 years now. 3. Gameplay wise is the closest to flawless anyone has ever been in SC2.
Arguing that is not the number one SC2 player of all time is a bit absurd in my opinion.
The argument should instead be about who is number two, behind Serral.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
Yes, it does look like we went from 'winrates are irrelevant and nitpicky hurr durr' to 'let me argue about the partial derivative of confidence interval width, with respect to sample size' pretty quickly, didn't we.
For the benefit of other posters I did do the math quickly and find a corrective impact to historical winrates of 1% to 3% maximum (see en.wikipedia.org), as opposed to Serral's 15% lead; so it's safe to say that we're done here.
On September 18 2019 20:59 MockHamill wrote: 1. Serral started winning in 2018 and he is already earned the second most price money in SC2 history. 2. He has held the top spot on Aligulac for more than 1.5 years now. 3. Gameplay wise is the closest to flawless anyone has ever been in SC2.
Arguing that is not the number one SC2 player of all time is a bit absurd in my opinion.
The argument should instead be about who is number two, behind Serral.
He is definitely close to number 1 in terms of skill but nearly all GOAT discussions relate to how many tournaments a player has won. In that regard, I think he is probably around to 10-12th place at the moment (haven't thought that placement through but that is my initial guess).
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
Yes, it does look like we went from 'winrates are irrelevant and nitpicky hurr durr' to 'let me argue about the partial derivative of confidence interval width, with respect to sample size' pretty quickly, didn't we.
For the benefit of other posters I did do the math quickly and find a corrective impact to historical winrates of 1% to 3% maximum (see en.wikipedia.org), as opposed to Serral's 15% lead; so it's safe to say that we're done here.
Thanks for that, the numbers speak for themselves.
For me Maru and Serral are neck in neck, the upcoming GSL games, Blizzcon and homestory will really make things clearer. In the end no one has pointed out any koreans that match Serrals consistency only looking at tournments with korean opposition which also says a lot. That is without even measuring in wcs at all, measure it in and even if you value wcs very low Serral comes out as the most dominant player bar Maru.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
On September 18 2019 20:59 MockHamill wrote: 1. Serral started winning in 2018 and he is already earned the second most price money in SC2 history. 2. He has held the top spot on Aligulac for more than 1.5 years now. 3. Gameplay wise is the closest to flawless anyone has ever been in SC2.
Arguing that is not the number one SC2 player of all time is a bit absurd in my opinion.
The argument should instead be about who is number two, behind Serral.
Prize money is a complete joke. Serral won $300K from one event, and gets four free tournaments a year with $20K for 1st place. And aligulac is more of a joke.
The only argument for Serral here is his gameplay. And even then it's not like he's dominated harder than INno, Mvp, Zest, Maru, Life etc at their peaks. They're actually pretty comparable.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
Yes, it does look like we went from 'winrates are irrelevant and nitpicky hurr durr' to 'let me argue about the partial derivative of confidence interval width, with respect to sample size' pretty quickly, didn't we.
For the benefit of other posters I did do the math quickly and find a corrective impact to historical winrates of 1% to 3% maximum (see en.wikipedia.org), as opposed to Serral's 15% lead; so it's safe to say that we're done here.
Thanks for that, the numbers speak for themselves.
For me Maru and Serral are neck in neck, the upcoming GSL games, Blizzcon and homestory will really make things clearer. In the end no one has pointed out any koreans that match Serrals consistency only looking at tournments with korean opposition which also says a lot. That is without even measuring in wcs at all, measure it in and even if you value wcs very low Serral comes out as the most dominant player bar Maru.
I recall beeing at somewhat the same point a year ago. Since then Serral has won a shitton and so has Maru ^^
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
If you mean with "most people" only insecure Serral fanboys then yes.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw)
Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
While I won't go deep into whatever statistical readings you might want, I did this in a thread not too long ago so I'll just copy what I wrote there
Serral went 3/8 in big/premier tournaments (with koreans only) in 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them).
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months. Maru went 4/7 in 7 months. Zest went 3/7 in 8 months. Mvp went 6/12 in 12 months Life went 3/5 in 4 months.
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
Also an extra fun stat: Zest, Maru, Life, and Rogue made at least ro8 in each event during said streak. INno made ro8 in all but two.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw)
Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
Blizzcon is not the most competetive, don't know where that is coming from.
The reason GSL has been considered the hardest tournament is because all the greatest players in the world played there and the player pool was huge back in the day. Even the S tier koreans risked getting knocked out and not manage to claw themselves out of code A if they were unlucky. Thats just how deep the talent pool was, there is a reason Curious results as a gatekeeper was considered impressive.
IEM katawice this year for example was what GSL code S used to be, all the best players in the world grueling their way through qualifiers trying to get into the event. All the best from korea and all the best from the rest of the world fighting to just get into RO24. Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are examples of players not even managing to get through the offline qualifier. IEM nowadays is the tournament were a RO8 result for example means the most, the way there is generally the hardest in the world.
Code S was the hardest tournament in the world for the same reason IEM is the hardest today.
It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc). Serral is probably the favorite against basically any player on the planet, maybe not maru due to tvz but that's speculation. Serral simply always delivers at an extreme high level no matter when and where, there is no doubt about that.
Saying this makes him the goat though is questionable at best in my eyes, yeah even if he has the best streak ever, highest domination ever, he still lacks the titles needed to really make a claim for himself. This is why i said (elsewhere) that i think there is more justification for the title which shall not be named than there is for the goat one.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw)
Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
Blizzcon is not the most competetive, don't know where that is coming from.
The reason GSL has been considered the hardest tournament is because all the greatest players in the world played there and the player pool was huge back in the day. Even the S tier koreans risked getting knocked out and not manage to claw themselves out of code A if they were unlucky. Thats just how deep the talent pool was, there is a reason Curious results as a gatekeeper was considered impressive.
IEM katawice this year for example was what GSL code S used to be, all the best players in the world grueling their way through qualifiers trying to get into the event. All the best from korea and all the best from the rest of the world fighting to just get into RO24. Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are examples of players not even managing to get through the offline qualifier. IEM nowadays is the tournament were a RO8 result for example means the most, the way there is generally the hardest in the world.
Code S was the hardest tournament in the world for the same reason IEM is the hardest today.
IEM literally has basically the same level of players as GSL does though? Unless the addition of a bunch of EU pros that will never get close to making ro12 makes it that much harder? Remember most of the best foreigners have/do play in Code S (SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb, Reynor, Elazer all have at least).
So if Code S suddenly had an extra 30 players in the qualifiers it would be the same? Even if those 30 never stood a chance?
And Cure, Keen, sOs and Fantasy are also example of players losing in the ro32 or qualifiers of GSL.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
They do? Since when? (The answer is since Serral won blizzcon and his fans needed a reason to overblow that result btw)
Blizzcon is somewhat arguable because of the hype and such, but IEM is literally the same players in GSL (plus Serral) except in a weekender instead of a starleague. I've never seen someone actually put IEM over GSL when soO, Rogue, or TY were champion. They probably would had Serral won it though.
For me when it comes to rating tournaments, I think of prize pool, prestige and difficulty of competition (in order of increasing importance). I would say IEM is 2nd in prize pool, 3rd in prestige and 1st/2nd in difficulty of competition. GSL is 3rd is prize pool, 2nd in prestige and 1st/2nd in difficulty of competition. Blizzcon is 1st in prize pool, 1st in prestige and 3rd in difficulty of competition. It's not often mentioned but I think that, even though Blizzcon is the best tournament to win of the three (I consider it most important by a fair margin), it is probably the easiest to win because there are only 8 Korean players. I consider IEM and GSL to be tied (if I had to say I think IEM is slightly harder) in terms of difficulty because the group stage of IEM is more forgiving than GSL but there is obviously a lot more competition than GSL too. So overall, I'd say Blizzcon > IEM = GSL.
On random note: I'm pretty sure this is an unpopular opinion but I much preferred the old Blizzcon format (no group stages). I think it was more exciting.
On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc).
A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins.
Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18.
On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc).
A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins.
Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18.
What i meant with win% is the data of matches/games vs korean opposition someone in this thread presented. It's ridiculously high and in serral's case it translates to tournament wins and high finishes even when not ultimately winning. Also when i say there is more justification for the B word than for the goat title, that doesn't mean i think it is necessarily justified But there absolutely is some aura around serral with his win%, he is always the favorite and actually has incredible results to complement these win% unlike inno did. All of these things together are absolutely noteworthy and possibly better than the runs you posted.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
"Has been", as in the past tense
Nowadays almost nobody thinks that anymore. Most people hold Blizzcon and IEM with much higher regard. And the only "desperate" people in this thread (and all the others discussing pretty much the same thing) seem to be you and deacon
Pretty much this. GSL doesn't hold much value as before but still a bit more valuable than WCS.
Some people value GSL format over WCS weekender format, vice versa. Either way, I'm not going to disagree too much.
For me I always thought GSL is more like a gimmick. You pick and choose groups. No match up is worth mentioning until at least the RO8. Korean elitist will say nonsense such as "preparation, mind games, and specific builds" > Weekender standard builds. When I watch these specific builds, for me it's like watching a more refined/controlled Has build. I know people will disagree, which I really don't care because that's how I see it.
Most pros and people hold Blizzcon as the pinnacle of success. High prize pool and arguably the hardest tournament to win. That's where all the best players that was consistent to make it to the dance that specific year
Serral has had a higher winrate vs Koreans 2018-2020, while only facing "harder" koreans (no Losira's or Creator's), than anyone else.
Won X tournaments out of Y, is a silly metric, since in many of those they bombed out, or got rekt in between, and that's the reason Serral's Aligulac rating peak even comparing era to era is unmatched, Life was barely Rank1 even when he was peaking, he was extremely inconsistent, and took huge chances on his games.
Serral has both the EU/KR MMR records for ladder by a 200~ mmr margin.
He simply is the strongest player and most dominant player of any era we've had, if he's the GOAT that's another story.
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
On September 18 2019 23:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's ridiculous to completely dismiss the win% posted here as meaningless, serral definitely is one of a kind in this regard (inno had similar ones at some point, but won a lot less during that time iirc).
A few posts ago when I compared his run to that of INno, Zest, Rogue, Life, Mvp, and Maru, what about it makes Serral one of a kind? His winning streak is very comparable to theirs, but worse than most of them. The only way his streak beceomes better is if you include WCS wins.
Life literally won the same number of global events as Serral in like 1/4 of the time for example. Zest had basically an identical winning streak as Serral (3/7 in events, made ro8, ro4, ro4, finals in the four he lost). Except Zest did that in 7 months opposed to 18.
What i meant with win% is the data of matches/games vs korean opposition someone in this thread presented. It's ridiculously high and in serral's case it translates to tournament wins and high finishes even when not ultimately winning. Also when i say there is more justification for the B word than for the goat title, that doesn't mean i think it is necessarily justified But there absolutely is some aura around serral with his win%, he is always the favorite and actually has incredible results to complement these win% unlike inno did. All of these things together are absolutely noteworthy and possibly better than the runs you posted.
I still feel the strongest iteration of Inno didn’t actually win all that much vs how good he was, looking back. Maybe that loss to Soulkey threw him a bit, and if he hadn’t got reverse swept he might have cleaned up quite a bit more.
Serral has a slightly different aura to me than Inno, but it’s a hell of an aura. Inno would just crush you with his mechanics and roll you over with parade pushes eventually. You knew what he was going to do but he’d still wreck you.
Serral it’s like playing against a guy who has almost every facet of Zerg play down, and to beat him you have to throw something really clever out. Except somehow he almost always sniffs it out and just crushes you anyway.
Inno was like the unstoppable force, Serral is the immovable object stylistically.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
On September 18 2019 23:58 terribleplayer1 wrote: Serral has had a higher winrate vs Koreans 2018-2020, while only facing "harder" koreans (no Losira's or Creator's), than anyone else.
Won X tournaments out of Y, is a silly metric, since in many of those they bombed out, or got rekt in between, and that's the reason Serral's Aligulac rating peak even comparing era to era is unmatched, Life was barely Rank1 even when he was peaking, he was extremely inconsistent, and took huge chances on his games.
Serral has both the EU/KR MMR records for ladder by a 200~ mmr margin.
He simply is the strongest player and most dominant player of any era we've had, if he's the GOAT that's another story.
SHHHHhhhh.....You are making too much sense !! You cant say stuff like that in here !!
On September 18 2019 05:07 Shuffleblade wrote: Yeah looking back obviously the B word as way out line when looking over Serrals result more clearly but his streak is still insane and only matched by Maru in my opinion.
Why is it out of line. Isnt B-Word defined something like::
"Bonjwa is a term used to describe a player who dominates the StarCraft scene for a long period of time. A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins."
How in earth hasnt Serral dominated Starcraft ? He has been top dog for 18 months. GOAT can be arguable, but Bonjwa is a stupid discussion because that he already is. He has over 80% winrate against Koreans this year. And most of it against top Koreans. Thats insane. And he is practically a big favourite to win any tournament he enters, and if he is in his top mode there is nobody that can stop him at the moment. Or can you disagree with that ??
And from where have you ever heard these redicilous excuses when talking about some player. If somebody (cough- Maru or some other random Kr) loses to a crappy player:: "Well the xxx used some stupid tactix, was just pure luck bla bla bla.".........When has Serral lost to a weak player ?? Cant remember any in 2 years.
On September 18 2019 08:50 Charoisaur wrote: Regardless if other players would be able to do the same or not, it's still a fact that Serral's results are boosted by WCS. Pointing at his WCS results as the thing that seperates him from the other players that had a dominant streak is kinda weird imo since those other players didn't have access to a region-locked circuit where they had to only beat players a level below them.
On September 18 2019 09:03 IshinShishi wrote: I dont think WCS means much, I focus on level of play alone and Serral really does seem to be the best player in the world, Maru might have higher peaks, but he is not as consistent, I think its fine to admit that Serral has been a top 2 world player for quite some time now, it's just the reality of things, he's nowhere near goat or bonjwa tho.
"Beat players a level below them".......Like Maru, Inno, Life, Zest etc have done in their regime ? Yes, in GSL too ?
This belittleing of WCS, which has Special, Neeb, Raynor, Showtime, Heromarine, Elazer, Scarlett(at times) at least who are genuinely competitive players. All of these are capable of taking games from Koreans, even from the best ones. GSL vs. the world had: Dark, SoO, Stats, Maru, TY, Trap, Classic and Fantasy from Korea and they all dropped in hands of foreigners before RO4. And yet, Serral has destroyed these players 18 months in a row in WCS. Only Reynor has been able to upset him couple of times in a volatile ZvZ. How is WCS so unrelevant when it has competitive players, who can challenge Koreans ? Then we can say why do you keep taking GSL in account for Maru example, because he has to play only lower caliber players there ?
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Yeah, it sounds bad, when its not suitable stat for your agenda, yeah ? Pretty much one of the best facts that you can bring on the table isnt good enough ?
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Yeah, exactly. But yeah, delusional cant be awaken.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
Alright lets do this then.
Serral 1, 1, 1, RO8, 2, RO4, 1
Rogue 1, 1 ,1, RO32, 1, RO-, RO16
Maru 1, 1, RO8, 1, 1, RO4, RO8 (if you want to look at the next two tournaments afterwards its RO8 and 1)
Rogue results specified: 1 (IEM Shanghai), 1 (Super T 2), 1 (Blizzcon), RO32 (GSL s1), 1 (IEM WC), RO- failed to qualify for WESG, RO16 (Super T 1)
It is clear that if we look at Serrals streak in korean tournaments no one can match it. Rogue cant and Maru cant. I directly compared Serrals streak of results in the 7 tournaments he has played with top korean opposition with the streaks you mentioned and while Maru does come close he falls short. Where Maru has a RO8 Serral has a silver, even if they overall are extremely close.
I'm not saying Serral has better results than Maru but when it comes to dominating the korean tournaments they have played in Serral comes out on top with the strongest string of results in a row. While Rogues results are impressive when directly compared to Serrals they pale.
Edit: Also this is without even considering wcs, just to be clear.
From last year August, there are 8 tournaments that both Serral and Koreans participated in: gvw2018, blizcon2018, homestory 18, iem, wesg, rog, homestory 19 and gvw2019.
Serral won 5 of them. All the Koreans combined won 3 of them. Serral just won more champions than all the Koreans combined with the highest winrate against Koreans of all time.
Serral has made those Korean-player fans look like idiots. When Serral comes, those Koreans, who has been hyped by their fans for years, are just proved to be far less talented than Serral. Obviously those fans are angry and embarrassed. There is nothing they can do but irrationally deny how great Serral is .
Same things happened in Chinese SC2 forums: those Chinese fans are trying to attack Serral by racism -- Blizzard prefer white-skin guys than yellow-skin guys. LMAO.
Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
Dude what? How do you even obtain such numbers? This what I got from checking:
Rogue: 4 out of 6. He won Shanghai then got eliminated in Gsl. Got eliminated in next gsl before winning Kato. Not counting SSL because he was in challenger. Maru: 4 out of 6. Ok with this one. Inno: 4 out of 10 (crazy the number of tournaments back in the days). He got eliminated in GSL S1, Kato, GSL ST1, GSL 2, Shanghai and SSL S2 before winning GSL S3. Zest: 3 out of 6. He lost in Gsl S2, Shenzhen and Toronto before winning Kespa cup. Life: 3 out of 5: He lost in dreamhack winter and SSL ro4, before winning his gsl.
From liquipedia, taking into account the day of elimination when necessary.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
While I won't go deep into whatever statistical readings you might want, I did this in a thread not too long ago so I'll just copy what I wrote there
Serral went 3/8 in big/premier tournaments (with koreans only) in 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them).
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months. Maru went 4/7 in 7 months. Zest went 3/7 in 8 months. Mvp went 6/12 in 12 months Life went 3/5 in 4 months.
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
Also an extra fun stat: Zest, Maru, Life, and Rogue made at least ro8 in each event during said streak. INno made ro8 in all but two.
Usual disclaimer: you ignored HSC(for no reason) and you included the international tournaments before GSL vs the World 2018, when Serral had not started his international domination.
Rogue won 4 out of 5 tournaments from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice, Maru won 4 out of 6 tournaments from WESG to GSL season 3, Inno won 4 out of 8 tournaments from IEM Gyeonggi to GSL season 3, Zest won 3 out of 5 tournaments from GSL season 1 to Hot6ix cup + dominated Proleague, Life won 3 out of 4 tournaments from Blizzcon to GSL season 1 and placed 2nd in the 4th.
Dude what? How do you even obtain such numbers? This what I got from checking:
Rogue: 4 out of 6. He won Shanghai then got eliminated in Gsl. Got eliminated in next gsl before winning Kato. Not counting SSL because he was in challenger. Maru: 4 out of 6. Ok with this one. Inno: 4 out of 10 (crazy the number of tournaments back in the days). He got eliminated in GSL S1, Kato, GSL ST1, GSL 2, Shanghai and SSL S2 before winning GSL S3. Zest: 3 out of 6. He lost in Gsl S2, Shenzhen and Toronto before winning Kespa cup. Life: 3 out of 5: He lost in dreamhack winter and SSL ro4, before winning his gsl.
From liquipedia, taking into account the day of elimination when necessary.
Maybe you have a different method, then explain.
My bad I did this from my head. Doesn't change anything though. Maru and Rogue are still 4/6 which is better than Serral's 4/7.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Maru and Serral have been in the same tournaments since 2018 like 8 times.
Maru went on ahead to win 1 of those, while Serral finished ro4.
In all other tournaments Serral finished ahead of Maru or outright won.
Lets be real this is what it all comes down to, Maru fanboys incredibly butthurt, Maru has a lot of fans, every time he gets eliminated there's a deluge of posts/replies, Reddit's thread about Maru getting sOs'd in Blizzcon was humongously long for a single match thread.
On September 19 2019 01:58 terribleplayer1 wrote: Maru and Serral have been in the same tournaments since 2018 like 8 times.
Maru went on ahead to win 1 of those, while Serral finished ro4.
In all other tournaments Serral finished ahead of Maru or outright won.
Lets be real this is what it all comes down to, Maru fanboys incredibly butthurt, Maru has a lot of fans, every time he gets eliminated there's a deluge of posts/replies, Reddit's thread about Maru getting sOs'd in Blizzcon was humongously long for a single match thread.
Yeah and lets disregard when Maru dumpstered Serral at wesg lol.
On September 19 2019 01:58 terribleplayer1 wrote: Maru and Serral have been in the same tournaments since 2018 like 8 times.
Maru went on ahead to win 1 of those, while Serral finished ro4.
In all other tournaments Serral finished ahead of Maru or outright won.
Lets be real this is what it all comes down to, Maru fanboys incredibly butthurt, Maru has a lot of fans, every time he gets eliminated there's a deluge of posts/replies, Reddit's thread about Maru getting sOs'd in Blizzcon was humongously long for a single match thread.
Yeah and lets disregard when Maru dumpstered Serral at wesg lol.
Then in GVW2018, blizzcon2018, IEM 2019, wesg 2019, GVW2019, hello, where is maru?
Observe: there has been zero signs of Serral truly slumping, while many of these lauded players have been going up and down like roller coasters. Some like to point out their peaks while ignoring their troughs, and then say, "See! No way Serra even close to goat."
Oh look! Rogue, Maru, Innovation...NoOoOo. My Korean idols! Aaaaah brain explodes
If you can cherry pick info to make some players look good, I can cherry pick info to make them look less than mediocre, as well. Now, try to find any example of Serral falling anywhere near that low in performance in the past 2.5 years. I'll wait. No, really, give it a strong effort.
Some Einstein even calling win % vs Koreans "cherry picked," while he cherry picks tournament wins. LOL It can't get much more retarded than that...eh, who am I kiddin.
On September 18 2019 13:06 Pandain wrote: Since April or May 2018 serral has either won every offline tournament or got eliminated by the eventual champion.
Anyone who doesn't say that is the craziest period of consistency and yes dominance is just delusional at this point.
But yeah I mean this debate has been the same for a year now and no one is gonna change their mind
Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
While I won't go deep into whatever statistical readings you might want, I did this in a thread not too long ago so I'll just copy what I wrote there
Serral went 3/8 in big/premier tournaments (with koreans only) in 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them).
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months. Maru went 4/7 in 7 months. Zest went 3/7 in 8 months. Mvp went 6/12 in 12 months Life went 3/5 in 4 months.
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
Also an extra fun stat: Zest, Maru, Life, and Rogue made at least ro8 in each event during said streak. INno made ro8 in all but two.
Usual disclaimer: you ignored HSC(for no reason) and you included the international tournaments before GSL vs the World 2018, when Serral had not started his international domination.
The topic was refering to Serral's streak of going 3/8 or 4/9 if you include HSC. He was clearly including global events before GSL vs TW and the question literally asked what other players could go 3/7 in global events while also making ro8 or above in all of them.
If you wanna ignore Serral's performance at IEM/WeSG then his streak is 3/6 in 12 months I guess. Even then it's close to the others. No one has answered me as to why Serral's streak is that much better than the rest.
On September 19 2019 02:10 terribleplayer1 wrote: I didn't disregard I mentioned it, thats the 1 tournament he won and did better than Serral.
Score is Serral 7, Maru 1
It's even possible Maru beats Serral on the h2h, but looking at Maru vs Ragnarok I don't think so.
(Serral did dumpster Maru in a bo1 in GSL v World as well)
01/22/2018 IEM Season XII World Championship Serral dumpstered Maru 2-0 as well.
The online eu server qualifier? Come on lol
yeah, the version Terran with imba seeker missles, come on.
So much is wrong here.
A) The match was played a whole week before the seeker missile patch came out
B) Terran was the worst performing race by a large margin on that patch anyway
C) It was played on EU server, claiming it to be some kind of important win is nonsense
A) the seeker missile nerf Patch 4.3.0 came out on 2018.05.15 (before that, it is the imba version) B) With a 51% tvz winrate on 2018 Jan from Aligualc? C) I didn't say it is offline, I just want to remind him Serral had won Maru twice.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Yes, Maru did play significantly more people of Korean origin during that time than Serral. Shockingly, Maru has many more losses vs Koreans during that time period. His record vs Koreans is strictly worse than Serral's. Luckily for Maru, the intent of this PR is to measure SC2 proficiency in general rather than SC2 proficiency vs exclusively Korean individuals. Unfortunately for Maru, his failure to measure up to Serral statistically over the past year is only magnified by the inclusion of all matches.
Who is better overall? Serral 124/11 > 79/31 Who is better vs each other? Serral 1 > 0 Who is better vs Protoss? Serral 36/4 > 26/15 Who is better vs Terran? Serral 33/3 > 20/9 Who is better vs Zerg? Serral 55/4 > 33/7 Who is better vs Koreans? Serral 28/5 > 50/28 Who is better vs non Koreans? (This is by far the closest statistic and guess what it's still) Serral 96/6 > 29/3
On September 18 2019 16:43 Charoisaur wrote: [quote] Numbers disagree with you, aside from WCS dominance which the other players don't have access to Serral hasn't been more dominant than Inno, Maru etc. Didn't know your result becomes more impressive if the player that beats you happens to win the tournament - is that one of the new criteria Serral fans made up to make him look as good as possible? If you're that desperate to find things that make him look dominant then maybe he actually is not that dominant. You are the delusional one.
Which specific numbers are you referring to ? Like I said before, since Jan18, Serral is 80%+ winrate in matches *vs Koreans*, Maru is 65% (66% vs 60% in games respectively). Do you have alternative evidence to offer ?
I'm not talking about some cherry-picked statistics - I'm talking about the actual success they had at tournaments.
Winrate vs Koreans cherry-picked ? Winrates are literally assumption-free (until you condition them), that's probability 101. You don't think a high winrate is a necessary condition to win tournaments over the long run ? If anything, these numbers are conservative, so as not to skew stats positively by including winrate vs foreigners.
Also funny you should say that in the Power Rank thread, which is literally opening with these arguments '(but also in his losing streak to Solar (who beat him 6-2 in maps over three different series)' to assess rankings. But now in your own words...
On September 17 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote: Yeah surprise surprise - if you avoid the real competition you tend to lose less.
Just gonna leave this here ... More seriously, you're otherwise a reasonable guy, dismissing hard data like historical frequency of wins with a simple sleight of hand is not a particularly good look. Especially when claiming unreasonableness from the 'other side'.
Several people including myself have been calling out mr. Charoisaur to provide any conclusive quantitative justification for their claims, yet instead they consistently respond with fake facts like:
On September 18 2019 20:50 Charoisaur wrote: Keeping up a high winrate over a high number of games is harder than having a high winrate over a low number of games.
This is mathematically and historically incorrect. And there are more like that, including my favorite "GSL is by far the most competitive and hardest competition in the world" and "to prove you are no1 you have to travel to Korea and live there for 3 months". Wait and see them respond to the easiest points in this message (if respond at all). Don't waste your time.
This is getting funny. GSL has always universally been regarded as the most competitive competition in the world, only lately Serral fanboys have started claiming it's "not important" because they are so insecure and desperate in wanting to make him look as good as possible.
I already provided my "conclusive quantitative justification" multiple times with actual tournament results and not with some random meaningless winrates. Out of the last 7 non-region locked premier events Serral has won 4. Impressive but not unprecended. Other players have done the same. The only reason you and others think he's literal starcraft jesus is because his results are boosted by WCS.
Great, then please show me what "other players" have done the same. Which players have played exclusively in tournaments against top koreans and won 4/7 and placed 1 RO8, 1 semifinal and one silver medal in the remaining three.
Sorry but you can't cherry pick results either, show me which player had a streak of seven tournaments in a row with results at least as good as Serrals. You say plenty of players have done that, then tell me their names and their streaks.
While I won't go deep into whatever statistical readings you might want, I did this in a thread not too long ago so I'll just copy what I wrote there
Serral went 3/8 in big/premier tournaments (with koreans only) in 18 months (although he reached at least ro8 in all of them).
Here are some examples of koreans doing equal/better in a smaller time frame, and none of them received the same hype as Serral. None of them are considered bonjwas.
INno went 4/10 in 9 months Rogue went 4/6 in 8 months. Maru went 4/7 in 7 months. Zest went 3/7 in 8 months. Mvp went 6/12 in 12 months Life went 3/5 in 4 months.
And that's not even going into the fact that all of these (except Rogue) were winning starleagues not just weekenders.
Also an extra fun stat: Zest, Maru, Life, and Rogue made at least ro8 in each event during said streak. INno made ro8 in all but two.
Usual disclaimer: you ignored HSC(for no reason) and you included the international tournaments before GSL vs the World 2018, when Serral had not started his international domination.
The topic was refering to Serral's streak of going 3/8 or 4/9 if you include HSC. He was clearly including global events before GSL vs TW and the question literally asked what other players could go 3/7 in global events while also making ro8 or above in all of them.
If you wanna ignore Serral's performance at IEM/WeSG then his streak is 3/6 in 12 months I guess. Even then it's close to the others. No one has answered me as to why Serral's streak is that much better than the rest.
In short, eries winstreak, and average placement if you only look at international tournaments(every single aspect, if you include WCS). More detailed answers have been given multiple times in the last year.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Yes, Maru did play significantly more people of Korean origin during that time than Serral. Shockingly, Maru has many more losses vs Koreans during that time period. His record vs Koreans is strictly worse than Serral's. Luckily for Maru, the intent of this PR is to measure SC2 proficiency in general rather than SC2 proficiency vs exclusively Korean individuals. Unfortunately for Maru, his failure to measure up to Serral statistically over the past year is only magnified by the inclusion of all matches.
Who is better overall? Serral 124/11 > 79/31 Who is better vs each other? Serral 1 > 0 Who is better vs Protoss? Serral 36/4 > 26/15 Who is better vs Terran? Serral 33/3 > 20/9 Who is better vs Zerg? Serral 55/4 > 33/7 Who is better vs Koreans? Serral 28/5 > 50/28 Who is better vs non Koreans? (This is by far the closest statistic and guess what it's still) Serral 96/6 > 29/3
Which statistic did you want to look at again?
now you cherry-picked the period of time to make Serral look as good as possible. Why start at August 2018? Maru's dominance started at WESG 2018.
also all the stats except the last two are a complete joke since Serral faces way weaker competition on average.
as to no one ever reaching Serral's 28-5 winrate against koreans - Rogue had 28-7 against koreans during his peak with 5 of those losses being in SSL challenge where he didn't play serious. and still Artosis got laughed at for calling him a bonjwa
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Yes, Maru did play significantly more people of Korean origin during that time than Serral. Shockingly, Maru has many more losses vs Koreans during that time period. His record vs Koreans is strictly worse than Serral's. Luckily for Maru, the intent of this PR is to measure SC2 proficiency in general rather than SC2 proficiency vs exclusively Korean individuals. Unfortunately for Maru, his failure to measure up to Serral statistically over the past year is only magnified by the inclusion of all matches.
Who is better overall? Serral 124/11 > 79/31 Who is better vs each other? Serral 1 > 0 Who is better vs Protoss? Serral 36/4 > 26/15 Who is better vs Terran? Serral 33/3 > 20/9 Who is better vs Zerg? Serral 55/4 > 33/7 Who is better vs Koreans? Serral 28/5 > 50/28 Who is better vs non Koreans? (This is by far the closest statistic and guess what it's still) Serral 96/6 > 29/3
Which statistic did you want to look at again?
now you cherry-picked the period of time to make Serral look as good as possible. Why start at August 2018? Maru's dominance started at WESG 2018.
also all the stats except the last two are a complete joke since Serral faces way weaker competition on average.
The time period was explicitly stated in my first post. It has not changed in subsequent posts. The conclusion/premise stated at the end of the first post - albeit offhandedly - was that Serral should have been #1 since last August. It would seem reasonable to me to measure his success from that date to support such a conclusion.
Edit: If you would like to discount all the statistics except the last two, you are more than welcome to do so. However, you do realize that those statistics all come from the same group of players and that 1, 3-5, and 6-7 are all encompassing? The strength of competition remains unchanged regardless of what you are measuring.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Yes, Maru did play significantly more people of Korean origin during that time than Serral. Shockingly, Maru has many more losses vs Koreans during that time period. His record vs Koreans is strictly worse than Serral's. Luckily for Maru, the intent of this PR is to measure SC2 proficiency in general rather than SC2 proficiency vs exclusively Korean individuals. Unfortunately for Maru, his failure to measure up to Serral statistically over the past year is only magnified by the inclusion of all matches.
Who is better overall? Serral 124/11 > 79/31 Who is better vs each other? Serral 1 > 0 Who is better vs Protoss? Serral 36/4 > 26/15 Who is better vs Terran? Serral 33/3 > 20/9 Who is better vs Zerg? Serral 55/4 > 33/7 Who is better vs Koreans? Serral 28/5 > 50/28 Who is better vs non Koreans? (This is by far the closest statistic and guess what it's still) Serral 96/6 > 29/3
Which statistic did you want to look at again?
now you cherry-picked the period of time to make Serral look as good as possible. Why start at August 2018? Maru's dominance started at WESG 2018.
also all the stats except the last two are a complete joke since Serral faces way weaker competition on average.
The time period was explicitly stated in my first post. It has not changed in subsequent posts. The conclusion/premise stated at the end of the first post - albeit offhandedly - was that Serral should have been #1 since last August. It would seem reasonable to me to measure his success from that date to support such a conclusion.
then we're discussing different things but your attempt doesn't make sense anyways since at August last year the data how he will perform in the future was not available yet If we're discussing the best player of the last 13 months then of course Serral is the best.
The topic was refering to Serral's streak of going 3/8 or 4/9 if you include HSC. He was clearly including global events before GSL vs TW and the question literally asked what other players could go 3/7 in global events while also making ro8 or above in all of them.
If you wanna ignore Serral's performance at IEM/WeSG then his streak is 3/6 in 12 months I guess. Even then it's close to the others. No one has answered me as to why Serral's streak is that much better than the rest.
Yes I did, look at the best streak of results for 7 consecutive tournaments and tell me whose is most impressive.
On September 19 2019 00:55 Shuffleblade wrote: Serral 1, 1, 1, RO8, 2, RO4, 1
Rogue 1, 1 ,1, RO32, 1, RO-, RO16
Maru 1, 1, RO8, 1, 1, RO4, RO8
On September 19 2019 04:03 Charoisaur wrote: as to no one ever reaching Serral's 28-5 winrate against koreans - Rogue had 28-7 against koreans during his peak with 5 of those losses being in SSL challenge where he didn't play serious. and still Artosis got laughed at for calling him a bonjwa
That is still not "reaching Serrals 28-5 winrate" that is close but still worse, not to mention Rogue fell off straight afterwards while Serrals insane stats are still going strong.
On September 19 2019 04:31 Charoisaur wrote: pretty sure Serral doesn't match ByuN's 45-5 record though.
Now you are getting desperate, including online games against the likes of "nado", "chankim" , "ArcLiTe", "Gyulzzing" and other really low level players. Like holy shit i am no serral fan by any means, i am a big maru fan actually, but why not give credit where it's due?
On September 19 2019 04:03 Charoisaur wrote: as to no one ever reaching Serral's 28-5 winrate against koreans - Rogue had 28-7 against koreans during his peak with 5 of those losses being in SSL challenge where he didn't play serious. and still Artosis got laughed at for calling him a bonjwa
Yea, because Rogue has had many many more attempts to perform a streak versus Koreans in comparison to Serral, and wasnt able... this goes for every Korean player. The fact you're unable to find a better streak is really telling.
Rogue's 2017 pales in comparison to Serral's 2018/2019 in terms of consistency.
On September 19 2019 04:31 Charoisaur wrote: pretty sure Serral doesn't match ByuN's 45-5 record though.
Now you are getting desperate, including online games against the likes of "nado", "chankim" , "ArcLiTe", "Gyulzzing" and other really low level players. Like holy shit i am no serral fan by any means, i am a big maru fan actually, but why not give credit where it's due?
I just went by the statistic the other guy defined as the ultimate indicator of how dominant someone is aka winrate against koreans. Personally I don't think either statistic means much and the only thing that matters are actual tournament results.
I give Serral the credit of being one of the most dominant players ever on the same level as Maru, Inno, Life, Zest and Rogue. I'm not convinced he deserves further credit.
On September 19 2019 02:37 tigon_ridge wrote: Observe: there has been zero signs of Serral truly slumping, while many of these lauded players have been going up and down like roller coasters. Some like to point out their peaks while ignoring their troughs, and then say, "See! No way Serra even close to goat."
Oh look! Rogue, Maru, Innovation...NoOoOo. My Korean idols! Aaaaah brain explodes
If you can cherry pick info to make some players look good, I can cherry pick info to make them look less than mediocre, as well. Now, try to find any example of Serral falling anywhere near that low in performance in the past 2.5 years. I'll wait. No, really, give it a strong effort.
Some Einstein even calling win % vs Koreans "cherry picked," while he cherry picks tournament wins. LOL It can't get much more retarded than that...eh, who am I kiddin.
Yeah winning as Terran was even harder back then than now. That’s what makes Maru special as well, he is the savior of terran and only hope among Koreans.
On September 19 2019 00:06 Arghmyliver wrote: Per Aligulac stats;
Since August of 2018 Serral has lost 11 series. 11. In a year. He loses less than once a month. And he's played way more than Maru (~100 more games).
He has lost to Reynor (x3), Stats (x2), INno (x2), Neeb (x2), HeRoMaRinE, soO
The lowest rating in that group (at the time of their match) - 2372 HeRoMaRinE
In that same time period Maru has lost 31 matches. Maru loses more than twice a month. And he's played way less games! He also played and lost to everyone from the above list, minus HeRoMaRinE (unplayed) and Reynor, plus add several other players including;
1648 MeomaikA
TBH Serral should have been #1 since last August.
Congrats - you posted the most flawed statistics in this thread yet!
I just copy pasted from Aligulac my dude. Take it however you want. 124/11 > 79/31.
You can pull anything from Aligulac, doesn't mean those stats mean anything. I can search for most wins against koreans in that time period - bet then Maru comes out ahead?
Yes, Maru did play significantly more people of Korean origin during that time than Serral. Shockingly, Maru has many more losses vs Koreans during that time period. His record vs Koreans is strictly worse than Serral's. Luckily for Maru, the intent of this PR is to measure SC2 proficiency in general rather than SC2 proficiency vs exclusively Korean individuals. Unfortunately for Maru, his failure to measure up to Serral statistically over the past year is only magnified by the inclusion of all matches.
Who is better overall? Serral 124/11 > 79/31 Who is better vs each other? Serral 1 > 0 Who is better vs Protoss? Serral 36/4 > 26/15 Who is better vs Terran? Serral 33/3 > 20/9 Who is better vs Zerg? Serral 55/4 > 33/7 Who is better vs Koreans? Serral 28/5 > 50/28 Who is better vs non Koreans? (This is by far the closest statistic and guess what it's still) Serral 96/6 > 29/3
Which statistic did you want to look at again?
now you cherry-picked the period of time to make Serral look as good as possible. Why start at August 2018? Maru's dominance started at WESG 2018.
also all the stats except the last two are a complete joke since Serral faces way weaker competition on average.
The time period was explicitly stated in my first post. It has not changed in subsequent posts. The conclusion/premise stated at the end of the first post - albeit offhandedly - was that Serral should have been #1 since last August. It would seem reasonable to me to measure his success from that date to support such a conclusion.
then we're discussing different things but your attempt doesn't make sense anyways since at August last year the data how he will perform in the future was not available yet If we're discussing the best player of the last 13 months then of course Serral is the best.
I thought that's what we were discussing. Are you saying that because we didn't know in August 2018 that Serral would still be dominating the scene in Sept 2019, his domination in August 2018 is somehow diminished? The dude has been #1 for a solid year. I was just surprised upon reflection how long it's actually been that I've been assuming he would be #1 in the next PR.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
Life get 1 Title, 2 finals, sOs got 3 WC titles, Rogue got 2 consecutive WC titles... but I am the hater here for "just" aknowledging Serral as good and not as god...
Charo - love your enthusiasm, but I think it's useless.
I just took a look at Aligulac - is Serral's margin biggest ever? He is almost 200 point - 181 exactly - points ahead of number 2. I did random peeking into historical listings and there's nothing like this. Closest I've seen was ~100.
This IS unprecedented.
But Reynor should still make the list - maybe No. 10. Koreans have failed in this GSL vs. The World in general so maybe it's time to reduce the significance of recent not best results against them.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
This is a good post.
I also agree, it's unfair to compare between different eras. We can only compare how good one is among their peers during those times.
For example, Wayne Gretzky is the Goat among Goat in the 4 major sports in NA. No one comes close to his dominance in his era among his peers. Are current players better than him? Ya but different eras/technologies/training etc.
Life, MVP, Inno had great peaks but they were never held it for close to 2 years (at most 1 year I believe?) That's what makes Serral aura special
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that
2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc.
3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral.
4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense.
5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion.
6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years.
Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that
2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc.
3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral.
4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense.
5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion.
6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now. Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well. Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard. I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter. Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years.
Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that
2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc.
3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral.
4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense.
5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion.
6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now. Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well. Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard. I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter. Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes.
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years.
Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works.
I never compare Tennis player's winning to Serral's winning. Just answering your tennis question. Not sure if you know how to read properly or just read whatever to fit your agenda.
# of championship isn't the ultimate argument but it's one of the stats we could use. I disagree with your opinion about tennis comment. We can go basely on championship than Bill Russell with be the GOAT of basketball with 11 rings, but that isnt the case since majority of the die hard fans and casuals have Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who has around half 6 rings.
Let me get this straight, so it's wrong for us to claim Serral to have the greatest peak and Goat talk because of "lack of competition, past their prime koreans, etc". But it's okay for others to claim Maru as GOAT because of his 4 straight GSL's against this same "old koreans, post Kespa, etc"
Who did I ignore? I gave credit where credit was due to Life, Inno, and MVP. But i'm not blind and ignorant to say they have a higher peak than current Serral. Just like I will never say Maru's GSL victory > Inno's or Life.
You might be the one that needs to learn to show some respect on what Serral is currently doing and stop living in the past
I questioned if you did because your talking points are pretty bad, so i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to get that in there, that's all.
See you don't even understand my talking point, no it is not only about # of championships, it is about looking at the results as holistically as possible / to the point where it's reasonable. That includes other top finishes as well or teamleague results, etc. I don't really know anything about basketball, but the major flaw here is that it's a teamsport which makes the whole thing even more complicated.
I never even said it is wrong to talk about a potential greatest peak, you don't seem to actually read what people write. I simply added context to it to weaken your argument about the highest skill era, that's all. Again, it is about a lack of results in total if we talk about him being the goat. Maru doesn't have anything to do with this, i didn't even mention him. But sure if you want to then maru's career achievements are way better than serral's and it isn't even close. He had already great results before he won these 4 gsls as well btw, maybe you should actually check out the past nine years and not only the recent two.
This doesn't seem to be any fruitful though, i usually don't like to put people into categories fast, but you seem to be a troll and i rather not waste my time on that more than necessary. Everything which had to be said was said i think, bye
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that
2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc.
3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral.
4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense.
5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion.
6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now. Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well. Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard. I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter. Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes.
On September 20 2019 00:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:
On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:
On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote: Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial
at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality.
Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people.
I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them
A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much.
2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy.
But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years.
Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works.
I never compare Tennis player's winning to Serral's winning. Just answering your tennis question. Not sure if you know how to read properly or just read whatever to fit your agenda.
# of championship isn't the ultimate argument but it's one of the stats we could use. I disagree with your opinion about tennis comment. We can go basely on championship than Bill Russell with be the GOAT of basketball with 11 rings, but that isnt the case since majority of the die hard fans and casuals have Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who has around half 6 rings.
Let me get this straight, so it's wrong for us to claim Serral to have the greatest peak and Goat talk because of "lack of competition, past their prime koreans, etc". But it's okay for others to claim Maru as GOAT because of his 4 straight GSL's against this same "old koreans, post Kespa, etc"
Who did I ignore? I gave credit where credit was due to Life, Inno, and MVP. But i'm not blind and ignorant to say they have a higher peak than current Serral. Just like I will never say Maru's GSL victory > Inno's or Life.
You might be the one that needs to learn to show some respect on what Serral is currently doing and stop living in the past
Realistically, I think he has been at top level for only a bit more than a year (around 15 months roughly) since he looked pretty mortal in early 2018.
On September 20 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote: I questioned if you did because your talking points are pretty bad, so i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to get that in there, that's all.
See you don't even understand my talking point, no it is not only about # of championships, it is about looking at the results as holistically as possible / to the point where it's reasonable. That includes other top finishes as well or teamleague results, etc. I don't really know anything about basketball, but the major flaw here is that it's a teamsport which makes the whole thing even more complicated.
I never even said it is wrong to talk about a potential greatest peak, you don't seem to actually read what people write. I simply added context to it to weaken your argument about the highest skill era, that's all. Again, it is about a lack of results in total if we talk about him being the goat. Maru doesn't have anything to do with this, i didn't even mention him. But sure if you want to then maru's career achievements are way better than serral's and it isn't even close. He had already great results before he won these 4 gsls as well btw, maybe you should actually check out the past nine years and not only the recent two.
This doesn't seem to be any fruitful though, i usually don't like to put people into categories fast, but you seem to be a troll and i rather not waste my time on that more than necessary. Everything which had to be said was said i think, bye
Thank you for proving my point that you can't read and delusional. Another poster who can't make a valid fact or statement.
Feel free to stay delusional like the rest of your Serral hating crew.
Grats you just made my ignore list as well. Bye and GL kiddo
Thanks for the replies though, your posts all made me chuckle and had a nice laugh
This thread is pretty amusing. For me Serral is the most dominating player in history of SC2, but not the GOAT by a long shot. Arguably (and I agree) there have been tougher periods with a lot more competitive players where such domination would have been crazy and as such I value how crazy good Mvp was early on. If he wins Blizzcon twice in a row that would be sick, but not make him GOAT either, that's just not possible since he only started to do crazy well in 2018. Thankfully everyone can have their own opinions.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
This assumption that bigger competitive scene = higher skill level competitors is just that, an assumption. Looking at Stephano's games in the early days, he was actually pretty bad compared to Serral. Now, that wasn't as much his fault as it was merely the fact that the game was too undeveloped at that time. The days of stupid roaches smashing their faces into each other, with hardly any micro and multi-prong attacks, are long gone. These days, army control is more complex. Double-prong attacks and counter attacks/run-bys aren't really too impressive anymore—they're the standard. Creep is now much more widely regarded as critical than it used to be. There are many other things that can be listed. I'm sorry, but to say that the OG players were better because prize pools and contestant pools were larger, is like saying chess player of the 60s-80s were better than current generation players. It couldn't be more false.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Tennis: Roger is the GOAT. Every other player/ manager/ commentator says so. And even if Nadal can out Grand Slam him.
Football: Messi and CR have each other. In every other era they would be goat. Now they did just push each other to higher heights.
Starcraft: I think it's fair to say that Serral is top 5 alltime. I think even deacon and charo have accepted that by now Let's leave it at that and talk again at the end of the year GSL is still above the circuit by a mile. The recent GSLvWorld was rather abnormal. Reynor has the means to get into the PR, but hasn't yet shown he belongs for good.
On September 20 2019 16:41 Harris1st wrote: Tennis: Roger is the GOAT. Every other player/ manager/ commentator says so. And even if Nadal can out Grand Slam him.
Football: Messi and CR have each other. In every other era they would be goat. Now they did just push each other to higher heights.
Starcraft: I think it's fair to say that Serral is top 5 alltime. I think even deacon and charo have accepted that by now Let's leave it at that and talk again at the end of the year GSL is still above the circuit by a mile. The recent GSLvWorld was rather abnormal. Reynor has the means to get into the PR, but hasn't yet shown he belongs for good.
Mvp, Maru, Innovation, Stats, Taeja, Rain, soO, sOs, Rogue, Life(ha!) and probably then Serral. Not guaranteed, I'm at work in a hurry so I may have forgotten somebody. (Koreans are not listing in any specific order)
Certainly top16, probably around the 10th place. Nowhere near top5 ATM considering the names. Serral has big names to fight against.
On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote: The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating?
Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided?
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by.
Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote: The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
By what metric? I already showed that Maru and Rogue had a better streak in korean tournaments.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower).
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower).
Hm, no, I double the points each round too(I can roughly agree Red Viper's point system is acceptable even if I rate tournaments in a slightly different way) but I ignore anything lower than a semifinal(In my opinion, amassing lower results shouldn't net you more points than one big win career wise) and I value Major victories instead(we can take qualifiers out).
Also, there are things that can't be quantified precisely(you could add extra point for them to the overall rating, but how much really?), like Serral's winstreak or his extreme consistency in the last year and half.
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower).
Hm, no, I double the points each round too(I can roughly agree Red Viper's point system is acceptable even if I rate tournaments in a slightly different way) but I ignore anything lower than a semifinal(In my opinion, amassing lower results shouldn't net you more points than one big win career wise) and I value Major victories instead(we can take qualifiers out).
Also, there are things that can't be quantified precisely(you could add extra point for them to the overall rating, but how much really?), like Serral's winstreak or his extreme consistency in the last year and half.
Ok that sounds fair. I guess now I am just wondering how many points you would give depending on the tournament.
Also, the thing with Serral's consistency and streak is that some people think it doesn't matter very much when discussing achievements while some say it matters a lot. It's hard to compare the value of tournaments but I would say it's even harder to compare the value of dominance to tournaments. Because of that, I think they should mainly be used if you two players are pretty close in points as a sort of tie breaker (although the players don't necessarily need to have the same amount of points). It's more clear cut with tournaments because one can't just say Blizzcon is like 3 times as important as GSL or WCS > GSL. I don't think anyone actually believes that
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name...
On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote: The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating?
Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided?
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by.
Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games.
Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either)
Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player.
But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc.
Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name...
On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote: The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating?
Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided?
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by.
Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games.
Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either)
Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player.
But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc.
Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
He has been pretty dominant in recent runs though, or older ones.
For the record I don’t dislike Serral, but I tend to root for his opponents a lot of times just for some variety.
GSLvstW he stomped all of TY, Trap and Classic really convincingly 3-1, none of those guys played particularly badly either. Or last year’s where he 3-0ed Inno, 3-1 vs Dark and went to the rubber in a 4-3 with Stats.
Where are all these tight final set matches that could have gone either way that Serral is having? TY at HSC was one for sure, Blizzcon and 2018 GSLvstW also.
Maru smacks Protoss players in the playoffs of GSL sure, he’s not a dominant player either given who and when he has lost in some tournaments to.
The dominant player is a baseline of consistency. In most sports and how these are judged it’s the dude who relentlessly wins, or doesn’t lose often and if they do then not early and not too often. Absolutely spanking your opponents is a cherry on top IMO.
Early Tiger Woods springs to mind, he was a winning machine anyway, but he’d occasionally blow away a field by a crazy lead. A guy like Rory McIlroy can blow away a field if his game clicks, but he’s too inconsistent for anyone to call him a dominant player, he’s filed in the ‘nobody can stop him when he’s on his game’ category.
On September 19 2019 22:16 nimdil wrote: I just took a look at Aligulac - is Serral's margin biggest ever? He is almost 200 point - 181 exactly - points ahead of number 2. I did random peeking into historical listings and there's nothing like this. Closest I've seen was ~100.
This IS unprecedented.
But Reynor should still make the list - maybe No. 10. Koreans have failed in this GSL vs. The World in general so maybe it's time to reduce the significance of recent not best results against them.
If you go back to 2016, ByuN had many lists like this but his online games helped him a lot
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name...
On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote: The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating?
Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided?
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by.
Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games.
Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either)
Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player.
But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc.
Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
It's not like I am afraid to call people out, if I wanted to personally address you, deacon.frost, I'd have written to you directly; "you guys" is not limited to you and Charoisaur who are answering right now, but the whole faction who pretty much still are total and radical korean suprematists in Sc2. Your post was suitable for me to answer that way but the ro16 thing wasn't something I affirmed you have said: some of you believe in WCS being worth a ro4/ro8 in Code S, some other in the Olimoleague=almost nothing equivalence. It's needless to say I don't agree with any of those opinions.
Your idea of dominance(winning everything, every time) never existed in SC2; no player ever did, Serral is actually the one who went closer with a huge streak of offline series. Dropping maps makes him less dominant? Would you say someone winning 3-0, 3-0, 3-0 then losing 2-3 is more dominant than someone winning every series 3-1/3-2? Serral's BlizzCon's run is the most dominant in history, he went 14-3 by beating sOs and Zest 2-0, Dark 3-0, Rogue 3-1, Stats 4-2 and none of these was a close series.
Serral does not play Code S, we don't pretend he wins them but you can't make it seem like Serral played them and lost; his results in the tournaments he plays are both the most dominant(or close to) and the most consistent. Serral has the best Premier tournament streak ever(six consecutively, including WCS) and the best, tied with Rogue(three) if we only consider international tournaments; if you extend the number of international tournaments taken into consideration, there are a handful of super dominant players in the past who had results similar to Serral's(Rogue, Maru, Mvp, Life and so on), but none of them placed consistently as high as Serral in the tournaments they didn't win(not to mention only losing to the eventual winner).
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote: Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
On September 19 2019 02:10 terribleplayer1 wrote: I didn't disregard I mentioned it, thats the 1 tournament he won and did better than Serral.
Score is Serral 7, Maru 1
It's even possible Maru beats Serral on the h2h, but looking at Maru vs Ragnarok I don't think so.
(Serral did dumpster Maru in a bo1 in GSL v World as well)
01/22/2018 IEM Season XII World Championship Serral dumpstered Maru 2-0 as well.
The online eu server qualifier? Come on lol
yeah, the version Terran with imba seeker missles, come on.
So much is wrong here.
A) The match was played a whole week before the seeker missile patch came out
B) Terran was the worst performing race by a large margin on that patch anyway
C) It was played on EU server, claiming it to be some kind of important win is nonsense
A) the seeker missile nerf Patch 4.3.0 came out on 2018.05.15 (before that, it is the imba version) B) With a 51% tvz winrate on 2018 Jan from Aligualc? C) I didn't say it is offline, I just want to remind him Serral had won Maru twice.
A) The seeker missile BUFF came out on 29/01/2018. A week AFTER the series you mentioned. They weren't imba before that patch.
B) TvZ was at 51% in januray (before the raven buff), yet out of the four tournaments played on the "raven" patch, terran only had one player in the ro8 of three of them (IEM, WeSG, GSL), and only two players in the ro12 of the other (Katowice). Terran was objectively the worst performing race.
C) Convenient you didn't mention that the match was actually completely irrelevent due to one of the players having unplayable latency.
For the love of god look up the actual statistics on something before trying to claim them.
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote: [quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
So how many new accounts are you going to make to dodge your ban?
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote: [quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl.
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
There we agree, koreans got nothing on Big Gabe, for sure.
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote: [quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote: [quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
So how many new accounts are you going to make to dodge your ban?
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote: [quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote: [quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
There we agree, koreans got nothing on Big Gabe, for sure.
Amen, they dont got the good looks or charm on BIg Gabby as well
On September 21 2019 16:24 paddyz wrote: So Trap was knocked out of GSL 1 by Maru, GSL 2 in finals by Dark ZvP. GSL 3 hes in ZvP finals. GSL vs the world knocked out by Serral in ZvP.
Just keep this is mind when ranking him next month, he seems constantly under rated. This #4 is progress though. WCS points has him at #2.
He’s been the best Protoss overall this year IMO, just he’s not called Classic or Stats so doesn’t quite get the props he should IMO.
On September 21 2019 16:24 paddyz wrote: So Trap was knocked out of GSL 1 by Maru, GSL 2 in finals by Dark ZvP. GSL 3 hes in ZvP finals. GSL vs the world knocked out by Serral in ZvP.
Just keep this is mind when ranking him next month, he seems constantly under rated. This #4 is progress though. WCS points has him at #2.
He’s been the best Protoss overall this year IMO, just he’s not called Classic or Stats so doesn’t quite get the props he should IMO.
He didn't win anything while both Stats and Classic did. And after his "i need to go to GSLvTW" he didn't show much either.
Since both Rogue and Dark win the GSL Code S and Super Tournament respectively, ,I guess their points should be ranker above than those who doesn't perform well at any premier tournament so far.
My thought is Dark should top again the ranking, followed by either Rogue or Serral.
There will be the pre-BlizzCon Power Ranking. Expect Rogue to be placed significantly higher; on the other hand, do you really think Dark is more likely to win BlizzCon than Serral?
On October 06 2019 22:21 Xain0n wrote: There will be the pre-BlizzCon Power Ranking. Expect Rogue to be placed significantly higher; on the other hand, do you really think Dark is more likely to win BlizzCon than Serral?
Dark is not good at ZvZ while Rogue is such monster at one moment, but looked surprisingly weaker after that. It depends on how they survive against some players in the route to face Serral in ro.8/semifinal/final.
If Dark does not face some Zerg players like Rogue, Reynor or even Elazer, certainly he is okay.
On October 06 2019 22:21 Xain0n wrote: There will be the pre-BlizzCon Power Ranking. Expect Rogue to be placed significantly higher; on the other hand, do you really think Dark is more likely to win BlizzCon than Serral?
Dark is not good at ZvZ while Rogue is such monster at one moment, but looked surprisingly weaker after that. It depends on how they survive against some players in the route to face Serral in ro.8/semifinal/final.
If Dark does not face some Zerg players like Rogue, Reynor or even Elazer, certainly he is okay.
Dark's threats are Serral, Maru, Rogue, if he beats them when they play then he will win the tournament. I don't see a Terran beside Maru or a Protoss player beating Dark in a Bo5. Talking about Elazer and Reynor, sure they can take game off of him but i believe Dark will put the most practice in ZvZ coz that's his weakness.
My picks of tournament contenders will be Rogue, Stats, Serral, Maru and Dark. I dont believe in Trap's PvZ. Since there will be 2 Terran at max, if Maru somehow dodge Korean Protosses, he will have the highest chance of winning the whole thing, his TvZ is just unbeatable.
On October 06 2019 22:21 Xain0n wrote: There will be the pre-BlizzCon Power Ranking. Expect Rogue to be placed significantly higher; on the other hand, do you really think Dark is more likely to win BlizzCon than Serral?
Dark is not good at ZvZ while Rogue is such monster at one moment, but looked surprisingly weaker after that. It depends on how they survive against some players in the route to face Serral in ro.8/semifinal/final.
If Dark does not face some Zerg players like Rogue, Reynor or even Elazer, certainly he is okay.
Dark's threats are Serral, Maru, Rogue, if he beats them when they play then he will win the tournament. I don't see a Terran beside Maru or a Protoss player beating Dark in a Bo5. Talking about Elazer and Reynor, sure they can take game off of him but i believe Dark will put the most practice in ZvZ coz that's his weakness.
My picks of tournament contenders will be Rogue, Stats, Serral, Maru and Dark. I dont believe in Trap's PvZ. Since there will be 2 Terran at max, if Maru somehow dodge Korean Protosses, he will have the highest chance of winning the whole thing, his TvZ is just unbeatable.
Maru's TvZ just unbeatable after practicing to beat Dark and lost to the said player. Uhm
On October 06 2019 22:21 Xain0n wrote: There will be the pre-BlizzCon Power Ranking. Expect Rogue to be placed significantly higher; on the other hand, do you really think Dark is more likely to win BlizzCon than Serral?
Dark is not good at ZvZ while Rogue is such monster at one moment, but looked surprisingly weaker after that. It depends on how they survive against some players in the route to face Serral in ro.8/semifinal/final.
If Dark does not face some Zerg players like Rogue, Reynor or even Elazer, certainly he is okay.
Dark's threats are Serral, Maru, Rogue, if he beats them when they play then he will win the tournament. I don't see a Terran beside Maru or a Protoss player beating Dark in a Bo5. Talking about Elazer and Reynor, sure they can take game off of him but i believe Dark will put the most practice in ZvZ coz that's his weakness.
My picks of tournament contenders will be Rogue, Stats, Serral, Maru and Dark. I dont believe in Trap's PvZ. Since there will be 2 Terran at max, if Maru somehow dodge Korean Protosses, he will have the highest chance of winning the whole thing, his TvZ is just unbeatable.
Maru's TvZ just unbeatable after practicing to beat Dark and lost to the said player. Uhm
On October 06 2019 23:51 Ej_ wrote: Maru's TvZ is unbeatable but Dark's ZvT is more unbeatable.
This is like when you're fighting another kid with imaginary weapons and you block his super deadly death laser with your infinite power deflector shield.