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On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
This is a good post.
I also agree, it's unfair to compare between different eras. We can only compare how good one is among their peers during those times.
For example, Wayne Gretzky is the Goat among Goat in the 4 major sports in NA. No one comes close to his dominance in his era among his peers. Are current players better than him? Ya but different eras/technologies/training etc.
Life, MVP, Inno had great peaks but they were never held it for close to 2 years (at most 1 year I believe?) That's what makes Serral aura special
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On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality.
It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ?
Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010.
If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either.
All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG?
Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8?
Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8?
WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans  but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4
One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6
SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please.
Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
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On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that
2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc.
3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral.
4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense.
5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion.
6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
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Northern Ireland25964 Posts
On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now.
Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years.
Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
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On September 20 2019 00:13 KobeSteak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. 1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that 2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc. 3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral. 4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense. 5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion. 6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right?
I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now.
Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well.
Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard.
I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter.
Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes.
On September 20 2019 00:17 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years. Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc
Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works.
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On September 20 2019 00:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:13 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. 1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that 2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc. 3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral. 4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense. 5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion. 6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right? I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now. Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well. Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard. I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter. Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes. Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years. Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works.
I never compare Tennis player's winning to Serral's winning. Just answering your tennis question. Not sure if you know how to read properly or just read whatever to fit your agenda.
# of championship isn't the ultimate argument but it's one of the stats we could use. I disagree with your opinion about tennis comment. We can go basely on championship than Bill Russell with be the GOAT of basketball with 11 rings, but that isnt the case since majority of the die hard fans and casuals have Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who has around half 6 rings.
Let me get this straight, so it's wrong for us to claim Serral to have the greatest peak and Goat talk because of "lack of competition, past their prime koreans, etc". But it's okay for others to claim Maru as GOAT because of his 4 straight GSL's against this same "old koreans, post Kespa, etc"
Who did I ignore? I gave credit where credit was due to Life, Inno, and MVP. But i'm not blind and ignorant to say they have a higher peak than current Serral. Just like I will never say Maru's GSL victory > Inno's or Life.
You might be the one that needs to learn to show some respect on what Serral is currently doing and stop living in the past
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I questioned if you did because your talking points are pretty bad, so i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to get that in there, that's all.
See you don't even understand my talking point, no it is not only about # of championships, it is about looking at the results as holistically as possible / to the point where it's reasonable. That includes other top finishes as well or teamleague results, etc.
I don't really know anything about basketball, but the major flaw here is that it's a teamsport which makes the whole thing even more complicated.
I never even said it is wrong to talk about a potential greatest peak, you don't seem to actually read what people write.
I simply added context to it to weaken your argument about the highest skill era, that's all. Again, it is about a lack of results in total if we talk about him being the goat. Maru doesn't have anything to do with this, i didn't even mention him. But sure if you want to then maru's career achievements are way better than serral's and it isn't even close. He had already great results before he won these 4 gsls as well btw, maybe you should actually check out the past nine years and not only the recent two.
This doesn't seem to be any fruitful though, i usually don't like to put people into categories fast, but you seem to be a troll and i rather not waste my time on that more than necessary. Everything which had to be said was said i think, bye
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On September 20 2019 00:56 KobeSteak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 20 2019 00:13 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. 1) I don't follow the BW scene, so can't comment on that 2) Tons of players we have good results? You mean championships or top 4 finishes etc. 3) Name me one player that dominated as long and higher peak than current Serral. 4) Serral already dominated GSL vs World twice which showcases the current best Koreans. Don't give me "Serral has to play a full season GSL to proof himself" nonsense. 5) depending on that Tennis player, If all his victories ends in 3 sets 6-0 6- 6-0. He will definitely be in discussion. 6) Lol "lack of respect for players playing at this super high level". You do realize the LOTV requires higher skillset than WOL or HOTS right? I mean players who won tournaments and placed highly in others, yes. Aka "good results". The scene started almost a decade ago and a lot of top level players posted great results for a majority of these now. Your third point is irrelevant to the one i made, your fourth as well. Serral's victories aren't complete stomps, not sure if you tried to make the analogy there but if then it failed pretty hard. I also disagree with your statement here, 8 grand slams simply wouldn't be enough ever, the top players now simply have won too many for 8 to matter. Yeah the skill right now is probably the highest it has ever been, but the competition is also now as fierce as it was a few years ago. It balances itself out in a sense. But that wasn't even really the point i made either, you simply ignore all the players who are here for a long time now just because serral arguably has the best run so far. That's intellectually lazy and dishonest in my eyes. On September 20 2019 00:17 Wombat_NI wrote:On September 19 2019 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 23:37 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 09:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 19 2019 06:21 KobeSteak wrote:On September 19 2019 06:15 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On September 19 2019 05:26 tilhorizon wrote:
Charoisaur u are either trolling ore in complete denial
saying things like alligululac stats dont mean anything
deni facts winrates highest elo ratings tournament winnings % winrates
it must be very sad to live in such a delusional buble of a world in complete denial at this point its both. Its a well-known internet tactics where once your serious attempt to argue fails due to lack of facts and the opponents come with stronger arguments you pretend it was a troll all along. He made so many contradictions to himself its not worth it anymore. I guess its pretty sad to be one of the only 3 people who don't accept the reality. Denial is part of the recovery/acceptance process for those 3 people. I'm afraid another Blizzcon victory and title of undisputed GOAT for Serral might be the final straw for them A blizzcon title wouldn't make him the undisputed goat though, one doesn't have to be "one of those 3 people" to realize that much. 2 years straight of pure dominance and back to back blizzcon. Yup GOAT worthy. But feel free to keep holding on that thought "GSL > everything" mentality. It's about a lack of results, not gsl > everything (though i think this is accurate as well in general with small exceptions). Definitely wcs being worth way less than international tournaments though. You realize that there are players who have a ton of really good results ? Dominating a scene is impressive, but usually you also need the depth of results to go with it to be considered the greatest. If Nada would have won 10 starleagues over a longer period of time flash probably wouldn't be considered the greatest either, not even with his 2010. If some new tennis player wins the next 8 grand slam titles, that wouldn't make him the goat either. All you do by proclaiming that he would be the undisputed goat is showcasing a lack of respect for the players who came before him and actually are playing at this super high level for years and years now. Skill levels aside, what BW largely had that SC2 has not had was a stable tournament structure for years and years. Makes comparisons of accomplishments a hell of a lot easier anyway. With SC2 tournament structure changed almost yearly since it came out, there was the Kespa era and then post-Kespa etc Oh absolutely, it was way easier to compare feats because everyone played in the same tournaments all the time anyway. Though there were some changes during bw's era as well, especially on proleague level which was extremely important. But sure, it's way harder in sc2 to really establish any kind of goat ranking due to the way the scene works. I never compare Tennis player's winning to Serral's winning. Just answering your tennis question. Not sure if you know how to read properly or just read whatever to fit your agenda. # of championship isn't the ultimate argument but it's one of the stats we could use. I disagree with your opinion about tennis comment. We can go basely on championship than Bill Russell with be the GOAT of basketball with 11 rings, but that isnt the case since majority of the die hard fans and casuals have Michael Jordan as the GOAT, who has around half 6 rings. Let me get this straight, so it's wrong for us to claim Serral to have the greatest peak and Goat talk because of "lack of competition, past their prime koreans, etc". But it's okay for others to claim Maru as GOAT because of his 4 straight GSL's against this same "old koreans, post Kespa, etc" Who did I ignore? I gave credit where credit was due to Life, Inno, and MVP. But i'm not blind and ignorant to say they have a higher peak than current Serral. Just like I will never say Maru's GSL victory > Inno's or Life. You might be the one that needs to learn to show some respect on what Serral is currently doing and stop living in the past
Realistically, I think he has been at top level for only a bit more than a year (around 15 months roughly) since he looked pretty mortal in early 2018.
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On September 20 2019 01:12 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I questioned if you did because your talking points are pretty bad, so i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to get that in there, that's all.
See you don't even understand my talking point, no it is not only about # of championships, it is about looking at the results as holistically as possible / to the point where it's reasonable. That includes other top finishes as well or teamleague results, etc.
I don't really know anything about basketball, but the major flaw here is that it's a teamsport which makes the whole thing even more complicated.
I never even said it is wrong to talk about a potential greatest peak, you don't seem to actually read what people write.
I simply added context to it to weaken your argument about the highest skill era, that's all. Again, it is about a lack of results in total if we talk about him being the goat. Maru doesn't have anything to do with this, i didn't even mention him. But sure if you want to then maru's career achievements are way better than serral's and it isn't even close. He had already great results before he won these 4 gsls as well btw, maybe you should actually check out the past nine years and not only the recent two.
This doesn't seem to be any fruitful though, i usually don't like to put people into categories fast, but you seem to be a troll and i rather not waste my time on that more than necessary. Everything which had to be said was said i think, bye
Thank you for proving my point that you can't read and delusional. Another poster who can't make a valid fact or statement.
Feel free to stay delusional like the rest of your Serral hating crew.
Grats you just made my ignore list as well. Bye and GL kiddo
Thanks for the replies though, your posts all made me chuckle and had a nice laugh
User was banned for this post.
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serral is the goat hands down
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If Serral is the GOAT, does that make his undying fans sheeps?
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This thread is pretty amusing. For me Serral is the most dominating player in history of SC2, but not the GOAT by a long shot. Arguably (and I agree) there have been tougher periods with a lot more competitive players where such domination would have been crazy and as such I value how crazy good Mvp was early on. If he wins Blizzcon twice in a row that would be sick, but not make him GOAT either, that's just not possible since he only started to do crazy well in 2018. Thankfully everyone can have their own opinions.
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On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view.
GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion.
Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
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On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI.
You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S.
This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky.
Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case.
Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
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On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Nah, winning a WCS is like ro8-ro4 GSL
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This assumption that bigger competitive scene = higher skill level competitors is just that, an assumption. Looking at Stephano's games in the early days, he was actually pretty bad compared to Serral. Now, that wasn't as much his fault as it was merely the fact that the game was too undeveloped at that time. The days of stupid roaches smashing their faces into each other, with hardly any micro and multi-prong attacks, are long gone. These days, army control is more complex. Double-prong attacks and counter attacks/run-bys aren't really too impressive anymore—they're the standard. Creep is now much more widely regarded as critical than it used to be. There are many other things that can be listed. I'm sorry, but to say that the OG players were better because prize pools and contestant pools were larger, is like saying chess player of the 60s-80s were better than current generation players. It couldn't be more false.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World).
Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things.
On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era?
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
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Tennis: Roger is the GOAT. Every other player/ manager/ commentator says so. And even if Nadal can out Grand Slam him.
Football: Messi and CR have each other. In every other era they would be goat. Now they did just push each other to higher heights.
Starcraft: I think it's fair to say that Serral is top 5 alltime. I think even deacon and charo have accepted that by now 
Let's leave it at that and talk again at the end of the year
GSL is still above the circuit by a mile. The recent GSLvWorld was rather abnormal. Reynor has the means to get into the PR, but hasn't yet shown he belongs for good.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 20 2019 16:41 Harris1st wrote:Tennis: Roger is the GOAT. Every other player/ manager/ commentator says so. And even if Nadal can out Grand Slam him. Football: Messi and CR have each other. In every other era they would be goat. Now they did just push each other to higher heights. Starcraft: I think it's fair to say that Serral is top 5 alltime. I think even deacon and charo have accepted that by now Let's leave it at that and talk again at the end of the year GSL is still above the circuit by a mile. The recent GSLvWorld was rather abnormal. Reynor has the means to get into the PR, but hasn't yet shown he belongs for good.
Mvp, Maru, Innovation, Stats, Taeja, Rain, soO, sOs, Rogue, Life(ha!) and probably then Serral. Not guaranteed, I'm at work in a hurry so I may have forgotten somebody. (Koreans are not listing in any specific order)
Certainly top16, probably around the 10th place. Nowhere near top5 ATM considering the names. Serral has big names to fight against.
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EPT
