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On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating?
Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided?
Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by.
Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
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On September 20 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever.
By what metric? I already showed that Maru and Rogue had a better streak in korean tournaments.
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On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans  but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once.
Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World?
I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists.
Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise.
Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS.
To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
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On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing.
Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year.
GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases.
It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
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On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower).
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On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS
can't tell if you are trolling or not
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On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not
The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
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On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7. Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower).
Hm, no, I double the points each round too(I can roughly agree Red Viper's point system is acceptable even if I rate tournaments in a slightly different way) but I ignore anything lower than a semifinal(In my opinion, amassing lower results shouldn't net you more points than one big win career wise) and I value Major victories instead(we can take qualifiers out).
Also, there are things that can't be quantified precisely(you could add extra point for them to the overall rating, but how much really?), like Serral's winstreak or his extreme consistency in the last year and half.
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On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree?
yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
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On September 20 2019 21:16 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7. Can you go over why you think he beats Stats and sOs? I feel like I don't often see you actually make direct comparison between player's achievements. I prefer to compare using a point system because that is more transparent method in my opinion but I am aware that it has big flaws (I double the points each round whereas I am under impression that you weigh tournament wins and WCS a lot higher than I do and finals/semis a lot lower). Hm, no, I double the points each round too(I can roughly agree Red Viper's point system is acceptable even if I rate tournaments in a slightly different way) but I ignore anything lower than a semifinal(In my opinion, amassing lower results shouldn't net you more points than one big win career wise) and I value Major victories instead(we can take qualifiers out). Also, there are things that can't be quantified precisely(you could add extra point for them to the overall rating, but how much really?), like Serral's winstreak or his extreme consistency in the last year and half.
Ok that sounds fair. I guess now I am just wondering how many points you would give depending on the tournament.
Also, the thing with Serral's consistency and streak is that some people think it doesn't matter very much when discussing achievements while some say it matters a lot. It's hard to compare the value of tournaments but I would say it's even harder to compare the value of dominance to tournaments. Because of that, I think they should mainly be used if you two players are pretty close in points as a sort of tie breaker (although the players don't necessarily need to have the same amount of points). It's more clear cut with tournaments because one can't just say Blizzcon is like 3 times as important as GSL or WCS > GSL. I don't think anyone actually believes that
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7.
The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name...
On September 20 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating? Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided? Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever. Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by. Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere
The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games.
Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either)
Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player.
But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc.
Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
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Northern Ireland25010 Posts
On September 20 2019 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7. The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name... Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating? Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided? Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever. Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by. Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games. Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either) Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player. But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc. Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
He has been pretty dominant in recent runs though, or older ones.
For the record I don’t dislike Serral, but I tend to root for his opponents a lot of times just for some variety.
GSLvstW he stomped all of TY, Trap and Classic really convincingly 3-1, none of those guys played particularly badly either. Or last year’s where he 3-0ed Inno, 3-1 vs Dark and went to the rubber in a 4-3 with Stats.
Where are all these tight final set matches that could have gone either way that Serral is having? TY at HSC was one for sure, Blizzcon and 2018 GSLvstW also.
Maru smacks Protoss players in the playoffs of GSL sure, he’s not a dominant player either given who and when he has lost in some tournaments to.
The dominant player is a baseline of consistency. In most sports and how these are judged it’s the dude who relentlessly wins, or doesn’t lose often and if they do then not early and not too often. Absolutely spanking your opponents is a cherry on top IMO.
Early Tiger Woods springs to mind, he was a winning machine anyway, but he’d occasionally blow away a field by a crazy lead. A guy like Rory McIlroy can blow away a field if his game clicks, but he’s too inconsistent for anyone to call him a dominant player, he’s filed in the ‘nobody can stop him when he’s on his game’ category.
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On September 19 2019 22:16 nimdil wrote:
I just took a look at Aligulac - is Serral's margin biggest ever? He is almost 200 point - 181 exactly - points ahead of number 2. I did random peeking into historical listings and there's nothing like this. Closest I've seen was ~100.
This IS unprecedented.
But Reynor should still make the list - maybe No. 10. Koreans have failed in this GSL vs. The World in general so maybe it's time to reduce the significance of recent not best results against them.
If you go back to 2016, ByuN had many lists like this but his online games helped him a lot
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On September 20 2019 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 19:34 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Don't make me me laugh, you ignore me because I write things you don't like and that you don't want to read; most of the times I am the one bringing datas as opposed to bold claims. Now, you'll excuse me if I don't have any desire of checking thousands of posts to find out where one or more of "you guys" specifically said that winning WCS is like reaching ro16 in Code S; I can tell you for sure WCS has been compared to Olimoleague by Mariano multiple times and by Charoisaur at least once. Serral is a favourite against koreans not being in top shape, really? That's how we won BlizzCon and the last GSL vs the World? I don't think there has ever been a player as solid as Serral, he is at least even in every matchup against the best specialists. Serral usually drop maps in a series when other dominant players in the past swept their opponents more often but lost more series; this should make him appear less dominant? His 80% win ration in series against koreans since 2018 says otherwise. Serral's ranking in a GOAT list depends entirely on how highly you rate WCS. To me, only Mvp, Life, Inno, Maru and TaeJa have better achievements; at worst, you can rank Serral #7. The point is that you accused ME while I didn't write that and you outright lied about that. The rest is just you hiding behind the wall of text. It's hard to say sorry for a mistake, isn't it? You can remember one name(because I'm pretty confident both Chairosaur and Me were on the RO8/RO4 thing) but you insisted on YOU GUYS and got us mixed into the one name... Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 17:23 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:
The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite.
Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. I don't really follow your logic, so if one player won all GSLs and all premier tournaments in between with korean presence for a whole year yet won 4-3 in every finals that player wouldn't be dominating? Because his matchscore isn't totally one sided? Serral has posted the most consistent result in korean tournaments of any player in history, you might not think he is dominant but looking at the facts he is the most dominant player ever. Its not even like his matchscore is bad and he barely trudges past, Serrals aligulac rating and his score until the end 2018 also points to him being dominant, not just scraping by. Edit: Agree with you about the goat placement 10-16 somewhere The score part - somebody mentioned he's dominating Koreans - when he wins with 1 game advantage, it was to me a fair equal game where the better(sometimes luckier ) player won. That wasn't any form of domination, that was an equal game where both sides had chance and one won. Domination is Maru v Zest GSL Code S finals. Maru won quickly and decisevily, 1 game was "close" out of 4. That's domination both in the score and in the games. Also Serral isn't dominating the tourneys either. His domination was interrupted by IEM, ROG and WESG. Similar 2018. That's not how domination (at least for me) looks. Especially when we're talking about IEM World Championship title. (doesn't help there's a big break between Blizzcon/HSC and IEM which makes the domination seems less valid either) Well the issue with the most dominant player in the history for me is that he's missing out tournaments, that's like cherry picking statistics. He's one of the most consistent, that's true. But I still wouldn't rate him as a dominant player. But that may be a difference between our definition of dominance/dominatnt etc. Edit> TO be fair he reminds me more Taeja in this regard. We were waiting for the Summer Taeja and nowadays people are waiting for the 2nd part of the year Serral(as he lost all the open tourneys in the first part of the year) - for both 2018 and 2019
It's not like I am afraid to call people out, if I wanted to personally address you, deacon.frost, I'd have written to you directly; "you guys" is not limited to you and Charoisaur who are answering right now, but the whole faction who pretty much still are total and radical korean suprematists in Sc2. Your post was suitable for me to answer that way but the ro16 thing wasn't something I affirmed you have said: some of you believe in WCS being worth a ro4/ro8 in Code S, some other in the Olimoleague=almost nothing equivalence. It's needless to say I don't agree with any of those opinions.
Your idea of dominance(winning everything, every time) never existed in SC2; no player ever did, Serral is actually the one who went closer with a huge streak of offline series. Dropping maps makes him less dominant? Would you say someone winning 3-0, 3-0, 3-0 then losing 2-3 is more dominant than someone winning every series 3-1/3-2?
Serral's BlizzCon's run is the most dominant in history, he went 14-3 by beating sOs and Zest 2-0, Dark 3-0, Rogue 3-1, Stats 4-2 and none of these was a close series.
Serral does not play Code S, we don't pretend he wins them but you can't make it seem like Serral played them and lost; his results in the tournaments he plays are both the most dominant(or close to) and the most consistent.
Serral has the best Premier tournament streak ever(six consecutively, including WCS) and the best, tied with Rogue(three) if we only consider international tournaments; if you extend the number of international tournaments taken into consideration, there are a handful of super dominant players in the past who had results similar to Serral's(Rogue, Maru, Mvp, Life and so on), but none of them placed consistently as high as Serral in the tournaments they didn't win(not to mention only losing to the eventual winner).
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On September 20 2019 21:21 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:On September 19 2019 11:59 IshinShishi wrote:
Its unfortunate for Serral, but I dont think GOAT status is even attainable for him at sc2's current " nearly dead" state, I believe it's quite desingenuous to try to compare any achievement these days to the golden days of sc2 when there were so many high level motivated players backed up by good infrastructure. I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree? yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol
Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World.
Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16.
Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
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On September 19 2019 02:52 hh1009 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:42 Fango wrote:On September 19 2019 02:31 hh1009 wrote:On September 19 2019 02:26 Moonerz wrote:On September 19 2019 02:17 hh1009 wrote:On September 19 2019 02:10 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I didn't disregard I mentioned it, thats the 1 tournament he won and did better than Serral.
Score is Serral 7, Maru 1
It's even possible Maru beats Serral on the h2h, but looking at Maru vs Ragnarok I don't think so.
(Serral did dumpster Maru in a bo1 in GSL v World as well) 01/22/2018 IEM Season XII World Championship Serral dumpstered Maru 2-0 as well. The online eu server qualifier? Come on lol yeah, the version Terran with imba seeker missles, come on. So much is wrong here. A) The match was played a whole week before the seeker missile patch came out B) Terran was the worst performing race by a large margin on that patch anyway C) It was played on EU server, claiming it to be some kind of important win is nonsense A) the seeker missile nerf Patch 4.3.0 came out on 2018.05.15 (before that, it is the imba version) B) With a 51% tvz winrate on 2018 Jan from Aligualc? C) I didn't say it is offline, I just want to remind him Serral had won Maru twice.
A) The seeker missile BUFF came out on 29/01/2018. A week AFTER the series you mentioned. They weren't imba before that patch.
B) TvZ was at 51% in januray (before the raven buff), yet out of the four tournaments played on the "raven" patch, terran only had one player in the ro8 of three of them (IEM, WeSG, GSL), and only two players in the ro12 of the other (Katowice). Terran was objectively the worst performing race.
C) Convenient you didn't mention that the match was actually completely irrelevent due to one of the players having unplayable latency.
For the love of god look up the actual statistics on something before trying to claim them.
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On September 20 2019 23:40 IamGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 21:21 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
[quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
[quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree? yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World. Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16. Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
So how many new accounts are you going to make to dodge your ban?
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France12785 Posts
On September 20 2019 23:40 IamGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 21:21 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
[quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 22:26 stilt wrote:
[quote]
I agree, the same can be said to Maru while Serral is even more complex because he doesn't participate to gsl. The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak. But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will. So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done? Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up. Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does. If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree? yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World. Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16. Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS
There we agree, koreans got nothing on Big Gabe, for sure.
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On September 20 2019 23:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 23:40 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 21:21 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
[quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
[quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree? yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World. Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16. Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS So how many new accounts are you going to make to dodge your ban?
Who's living rent free in your head?
I just present facts, don't hate on truth
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On September 20 2019 23:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 23:40 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 21:21 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:46 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 20:25 Anc13nt wrote:On September 20 2019 20:20 IamGoat wrote:On September 20 2019 16:38 deacon.frost wrote:On September 20 2019 07:51 Xain0n wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
[quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You guys do indeed overestimate GSL judging by all the times I read that winning a WCS is barely comparable to reaching a ro16 in Code S. This doesn't mean that foreigners are better than koreans, GSL vs The World was an exception hence why Serral said they were lucky. Let's be clear, foreigners were lucky to outperform koreans but they are meant to be competitive nowadays; according to your ideas, this would sound "lucky to steal some map from the ubeatable korean gods, that's definitely not the case. Serral is the best player in the world and ZvZ is not a matchup for koreans anymore(Elazer beating Dark wasn't really that unthinkable) but, apart from that, you should expect to see koreans beat foreigners more often than not; the variance is high from tournament to tournament, sometimes koreans dominate(Katowice), sometimes foreigners perform very well(GSL vs The World). Let's make an exception. I've never said that. I specifically said that winning WCS is around RO8/4 level of Code S(depending on the current form of the players). So that "you guys", it's not me and I would appreciate if you would name the people who said that winning wcs is a RO16 Code S. That's why I ignore you 99 % of the time, because you write ... these things. On September 20 2019 05:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 20 2019 00:01 deacon.frost wrote:On September 19 2019 23:14 MockHamill wrote:
[quote]
The level of gameplay is higher than ever. Serral now is more skilled then Life, MVP or Innovation were at their peak.
But some would argue that is is an unfair comparison since any sport is typically at a higher level now then it was previously. For instance, even though Messi is more skilled compared to Maradona, Maradona dominated his time period more than Messi ever will.
So even if we compare players to their own time time I would say Serral dominates more than Life, MVP or Innovation did. Did any of those player reach and hold peak skill as long as Serral has done?
Also people overestimate the GSL. GSL vs the World had a foreigner vs foreigner final so being the best in Korea does not mean as much now when foreigners have catched up.
Serral dominates both WCS and most tournaments with koreans, which is more than what Maru or any other korean does.
If GSL is so overestimated why are there so few foreigners in the open tournaments like IEM? Why no foreigner won WESG where the starting ratio is so shifted towards foreigners it's not even funny? Closest was Serral and yet he did not. If there are so many KOreans in the top and at the same time saying GSL is overrated ... explain why are foreigners not competing in the other tournaments properly? Asus ROG? Katowice had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? Asus ROG had what, 2:6 ratio in the RO8? WESG is the exception because you cannot have there 6 Koreans but hey out of 3 Koreans 2 made it to the RO4 One GSL vs TW makes the GSL overrated? Seriously? The last Blizzcon with Serral winning have seen what ratio? 2:6 SO if out of the top 8 players 6 are Koreans how can GSL victory be overrated when you have to beat 6 of the top 8 players to get it? Explain this to me, please. Edit> Even Serral himself said foreigners were lucky, FYI. You make great points here, it really helps to broaden the view. GSL is clearly still the hardest tournament since that is were most of the best players in the world compete. Your statistics also makes that clear. I don't believe Serral is close to GOAT but if we are discussing dominating streak I don't think the lack of a pure starleague championship should disqualify Serral from that discussion. Regarding the "era" argument and how no one could ever get GOAT based on results of the modern era because it is less competetive. That is just pure bullshit, the game is not dead or even close to it. It might not have as many active players as it did during its peak but that doesn't mean winning is easy. "winning is easy nowadays I could probably win GSL if I tried" is that seriously what some of you are thinking? That winning is easy in this era? The issue I have is the domination thing. Serral isn't dominating the Koreans, he's not winning 3:0, he's not the clear favorite when facing the top vZ players(e.g. Stats, soO, Innovation, Maru). He's a favorite against Koreans who are not in the top shape. And I don't think there's a person who's stating Serral isn't that good to be in the top4 players of the world. But that's no domination! If we have a top4 player facing anyone below him he's the favorite and the lower the other player is the bigger the favorite. Serral is dominating WCS. That's how domination looks, the closest last open tourney(except the GSLvTW) looking like this was WESG and that's because how the open spots are selected. He didn't even dominate the Katowice group, the map score was 9:5 IIRC, ROG play off is similar thing. Serral dominates your favorite koreans easy pz for one year. GSL is actually not the hardest anymore. It is B tier with the better players. WCS is A tier since that's why the goat and best player in the world is at. Too bad we won't see more Korean vs Serral on a constantly bases. It's safer and easier to win money for koreans to say in GSL rather than risk losing and facing Serral early in WCS can't tell if you are trolling or not The current Best player in the world plays in WCS. agree? yeah but then everything else you said sounds like trolling lol Nah, It's just an unpopular opinion. But it's starting to be proven correctly as shown in GSL vs World. Tier A WCS came out on top. GSL winners couldn't even get out of the RO16. Blizzcon will once again show and proof that Tier 2 GSL just can't hang with the big boys of WCS There we agree, koreans got nothing on Big Gabe, for sure.
Amen, they dont got the good looks or charm on BIg Gabby as well
User was banned for this post.
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EPT
