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On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 01:10 Xain0n wrote:On April 28 2019 22:47 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 28 2019 20:31 MockHamill wrote:
If Blizzcon was right now who would you put your money on?
It still comes down to Maru or Serral.
So this powerrank is clearly wrong, Serral should at least be number 2. Also Reynor is better than most Koreans on that list. Serral clearly can't be that high on the list. He didn't win anything this year. He made two finals appearances only in mediocre tournaments (WCS and WESG). He lost to soO Neeb, Inno twice, Reynor twice and big Gabe, showing weaknesses in all matchups. Is he bad? Certainly not. But his lack of results can't be tarnished by his 2018 success anymore. The idea of ranking Reynor as high as many are demanding is kind of weird. He has shown that he is excellent in ZvZ but he lost vs Creator and Gumiho in offline qualifiers at IEM, lost vs Neeb in Ro16 of WESG, lost vs Heromarine in groupstage of WCS Winter and lost his first match vs Marinelord (!) in WCS Spring. I really like Reynor and I think he can rise to the very top but he still hasn't proven his excellence vs. thoughest competition this year so far. On April 28 2019 21:47 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Katowice(and Stats' results in 2018) explains why he already was in the list, the point here is why he didn't drop positions this month.
Well, I'm not arguing exactly for Stats being ranked that high but I can understand the logic and don't think it's wrong per se. The only result of Stats since his great performance at IEM is GSL ST. The question would be: did he look bad enough at this tournament that one should think he's gotten worse? His win vs Maru who recently won vs all the top Protosses and threw a very effective and surprising mech style against him was really impressive. Not only because of the bare result but also because of his demonstrated skill ingame. He just played incredibly good and adjusted to Maru very well. Then he lost to Gumiho who made it to the finals. Can we say he's gotten worse because of this performance? Or isn't a Ro8 finish what you'd expect from a top4-player facing a really strong opponent in a tourney where almost all top10-players are participating? Serral got the benefit of the doubt in earlier PRs this year, Maru as well. It's just reasonable to do the same with Stats now. I would not necessarily have made Stats drop positions(most likely, especially because Gumiho 3-0d him while he was clearly favored), but it's weird that he didn't because it doesn't seem consistent with the criteria applied to other people on this list. Also, Gumiho jumping in at #5 seems excessive to me just as it is to leave Neeb out of this list(he'd deserve it over Dear, even at #10). I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark. I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around. Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too. Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess  ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking.
Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached).
Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking.
I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis.
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On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 01:10 Xain0n wrote:On April 28 2019 22:47 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Serral clearly can't be that high on the list. He didn't win anything this year. He made two finals appearances only in mediocre tournaments (WCS and WESG). He lost to soO Neeb, Inno twice, Reynor twice and big Gabe, showing weaknesses in all matchups. Is he bad? Certainly not. But his lack of results can't be tarnished by his 2018 success anymore.
The idea of ranking Reynor as high as many are demanding is kind of weird. He has shown that he is excellent in ZvZ but he lost vs Creator and Gumiho in offline qualifiers at IEM, lost vs Neeb in Ro16 of WESG, lost vs Heromarine in groupstage of WCS Winter and lost his first match vs Marinelord (!) in WCS Spring. I really like Reynor and I think he can rise to the very top but he still hasn't proven his excellence vs. thoughest competition this year so far.
[quote]
Well, I'm not arguing exactly for Stats being ranked that high but I can understand the logic and don't think it's wrong per se. The only result of Stats since his great performance at IEM is GSL ST. The question would be: did he look bad enough at this tournament that one should think he's gotten worse? His win vs Maru who recently won vs all the top Protosses and threw a very effective and surprising mech style against him was really impressive. Not only because of the bare result but also because of his demonstrated skill ingame. He just played incredibly good and adjusted to Maru very well. Then he lost to Gumiho who made it to the finals. Can we say he's gotten worse because of this performance? Or isn't a Ro8 finish what you'd expect from a top4-player facing a really strong opponent in a tourney where almost all top10-players are participating? Serral got the benefit of the doubt in earlier PRs this year, Maru as well. It's just reasonable to do the same with Stats now. I would not necessarily have made Stats drop positions(most likely, especially because Gumiho 3-0d him while he was clearly favored), but it's weird that he didn't because it doesn't seem consistent with the criteria applied to other people on this list. Also, Gumiho jumping in at #5 seems excessive to me just as it is to leave Neeb out of this list(he'd deserve it over Dear, even at #10). I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark. I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around. Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too. Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis.
So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now.
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On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 01:10 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
I would not necessarily have made Stats drop positions(most likely, especially because Gumiho 3-0d him while he was clearly favored), but it's weird that he didn't because it doesn't seem consistent with the criteria applied to other people on this list.
Also, Gumiho jumping in at #5 seems excessive to me just as it is to leave Neeb out of this list(he'd deserve it over Dear, even at #10).
I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark. I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around. Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too. Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now.
Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated.
I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past).
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On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 01:10 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
I would not necessarily have made Stats drop positions(most likely, especially because Gumiho 3-0d him while he was clearly favored), but it's weird that he didn't because it doesn't seem consistent with the criteria applied to other people on this list.
Also, Gumiho jumping in at #5 seems excessive to me just as it is to leave Neeb out of this list(he'd deserve it over Dear, even at #10).
I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark. I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around. Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too. Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now.
By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think?
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On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10.
?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic.
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On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark.
I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around.
Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too.
Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think?
I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day.
@xain0n
I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year.
@Dave
How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year.
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On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5.
Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places.
Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower.
Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year.
Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once.
Much more consistent at high level? Debatable.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic.
A silver from foreigner only tourney(where the top NA playesr aren't allowed) is better than Code S title? Or IEM title? Really? Is this some form of trolling account with 3 already banned? Am I missing some meme?
So many questions.
Edit> This is what happens when you treat WCS EU the same way as Code S... ><
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On April 30 2019 23:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. A silver from foreigner only tourney(where the top NA playesr aren't allowed) is better than Code S title? Or IEM title? Really? Is this some form of trolling account with 3 already banned? Am I missing some meme? So many questions. Edit> This is what happens when you treat WCS EU the same way as Code S... ><
You are missing the point, I guess. If he thought WCS Winter Silver to be better than Code S he'd be arguing for Serral to be #2 on the list; that was meant as an answer to Charoisaur's post stating Serral wouldn't even be top 10 if we would exclude 2018.
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On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru.
How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable.
"much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say.
What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS.
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On April 30 2019 23:57 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"?
It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well).
Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable. "much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say. What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS.
I don't think there is a single tournament where Serral's elimination in ro16 is very likely; Dark, too, was expected to beat Gumiho(in his most dominant matchup, nevertheless) so that's why I am treating his ro16 placement as a bad result: it counts as -1 for Dark in my opinion, in terms of overall consistency.
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On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:
Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached).
I keep hearing this, but how is WESG easier than other tournaments when you have to go through the Korean qualifier?
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On May 01 2019 00:02 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 23:57 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO.
I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable. "much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say. What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS. I don't think there is a single tournament where Serral's elimination in ro16 is very likely; Dark, too, was expected to beat Gumiho(in his most dominant matchup, nevertheless) so that's why I am treating his ro16 placement as a bad result: it counts as -1 for Dark in my opinion, in terms of overall consistency.
I'm not saying that it is likely that Serral would be eliminated in a Ro16 of, let's say Super Tournament. But it happens to every great player every now and then as history shows. But it's almost impossible to happen to Serral as long as he doesn't enter Tournaments with very stacked first rounds like Super Tournament.
Here is a thought experiment: imagine Serral would've faced Inno in Ro16 at WESG. Or Reynor in he Ro4-match in WCS instead of PtitDrogo. Also you make it sound as if Serral losing in Ro16 of Super Tournament would be an insane surprise right now. That really depends on who he faces. If he'd participated and faced Classic, Maru, Stats, soO or Gumiho I totally could see him being eliminated in the first round (as in he wouldn't be favored in my book). And almost any other player in the ST-bracket would have a shot on a good day as it is in the nature of SC2 that very good players can make upsets vs favored opponents.
This is why I don't think that Dark's loss vs Gumiho sais very much about his level. It's not to be taken in his favor of course but if this is a slipup or the beginning of a downwards trend can't be decided yet, especially since he only lost very close to Gumiho who overall impressed at ST.
@DSh1
Qualifying for WESG via the korean qualifier is a feat in itself, indeed. But it is only an online qualifier in the end which normally doesn't get valued as high. Also the qualifiers of WESG are way before the actual event (in this case even on another patch). So I think only the performances right at WESG can be taken into acount for measurement of the current skilllevel.
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On May 01 2019 00:34 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 00:02 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:57 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:[quote] Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable. "much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say. What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS. I don't think there is a single tournament where Serral's elimination in ro16 is very likely; Dark, too, was expected to beat Gumiho(in his most dominant matchup, nevertheless) so that's why I am treating his ro16 placement as a bad result: it counts as -1 for Dark in my opinion, in terms of overall consistency. I'm not saying that it is likely that Serral would be eliminated in a Ro16 of, let's say Super Tournament. But it happens to every great player every now and then as history shows. But it's almost impossible to happen to Serral as long as he doesn't enter Tournaments with very stacked first rounds like Super Tournament. Here is a thought experiment: imagine Serral would've faced Inno in Ro16 at WESG. Or Reynor in he Ro4-match in WCS instead of PtitDrogo. Also you make it sound as if Serral losing in Ro16 of Super Tournament would be an insane surprise right now. That really depends on who he faces. If he'd participated and faced Classic, Maru, Stats, soO or Gumiho I totally could see him being eliminated in the first round (as in he wouldn't be favored in my book). And almost any other player in the ST-bracket would have a shot on a good day as it is in the nature of SC2 that very good players can make upsets vs favored opponents. This is why I don't think that Dark's loss vs Gumiho sais very much about his level. It's not to be taken in his favor of course but if this is a slipup or the beginning of a downwards trend can't be decided yet, especially since he only lost very close to Gumiho who overall impressed at ST. @DSh1 Qualifying for WESG via the korean qualifier is a feat in itself, indeed. But it is only an online qualifier in the end which normally doesn't get valued as high. Also the qualifiers of WESG are way before the actual event (in this case even on another patch). So I think only the performances right at WESG can be taken into acount for measurement of the current skilllevel.
Serral losing in ro16 of the Super Tournament would indeed be one insane surprise right now(at the end of 2018 the surprise would have simply been Serral dropping one series) and I do not think he would be the underdog against all of these players. Sc2 seems volatile again in 2019, no one is unbeatable but it's not like everyone is at the same level at once; i am sure Dark is not slumping, that ro16 placement is still kind of bad and goes against the "high level consistency" you are waving.
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All of the writers are just Artosis using different pen names.
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On April 30 2019 23:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. A silver from foreigner only tourney(where the top NA playesr aren't allowed) is better than Code S title? Or IEM title? Really? Is this some form of trolling account with 3 already banned? Am I missing some meme? So many questions. Edit> This is what happens when you treat WCS EU the same way as Code S... ><
I think maybe U misunderstood I said that's why he is 6 on the list, it's not because he is BlizzCon champ or he would surely be higher. I made no such statement that that was better than GSL in fact I had been saying previously Serral is well placed at 6 and Maru should be 2... You should read context before lashing out please let's build a healthy and loving community.
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On May 01 2019 01:06 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 00:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 00:02 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:57 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable.
And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago.
Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable. "much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say. What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS. I don't think there is a single tournament where Serral's elimination in ro16 is very likely; Dark, too, was expected to beat Gumiho(in his most dominant matchup, nevertheless) so that's why I am treating his ro16 placement as a bad result: it counts as -1 for Dark in my opinion, in terms of overall consistency. I'm not saying that it is likely that Serral would be eliminated in a Ro16 of, let's say Super Tournament. But it happens to every great player every now and then as history shows. But it's almost impossible to happen to Serral as long as he doesn't enter Tournaments with very stacked first rounds like Super Tournament. Here is a thought experiment: imagine Serral would've faced Inno in Ro16 at WESG. Or Reynor in he Ro4-match in WCS instead of PtitDrogo. Also you make it sound as if Serral losing in Ro16 of Super Tournament would be an insane surprise right now. That really depends on who he faces. If he'd participated and faced Classic, Maru, Stats, soO or Gumiho I totally could see him being eliminated in the first round (as in he wouldn't be favored in my book). And almost any other player in the ST-bracket would have a shot on a good day as it is in the nature of SC2 that very good players can make upsets vs favored opponents. This is why I don't think that Dark's loss vs Gumiho sais very much about his level. It's not to be taken in his favor of course but if this is a slipup or the beginning of a downwards trend can't be decided yet, especially since he only lost very close to Gumiho who overall impressed at ST. @DSh1 Qualifying for WESG via the korean qualifier is a feat in itself, indeed. But it is only an online qualifier in the end which normally doesn't get valued as high. Also the qualifiers of WESG are way before the actual event (in this case even on another patch). So I think only the performances right at WESG can be taken into acount for measurement of the current skilllevel. Serral losing in ro16 of the Super Tournament would indeed be one insane surprise right now(at the end of 2018 the surprise would have simply been Serral dropping one series) and I do not think he would be the underdog against all of these players. Sc2 seems volatile again in 2019, no one is unbeatable but it's not like everyone is at the same level at once; i am sure Dark is not slumping, that ro16 placement is still kind of bad and goes against the "high level consistency" you are waving.
Somehow you're understanding my statements in a black-white manner today. I didn't say that Serral would be the underdog. I just said that he wouldn't be favored vs quite some of the ST Ro16 players. As in it could go either way while I actually do think that soO, Classic and Inno should be considered favored vs Serral right now as soO demonstrated high class ZvZ, Classic demonstrated overall greatness and Inno demonstrated being superior to Serral in a direct match twice this year. Thinking of a loss of Serral against those players as a surprise is kind of ignoring this year's data. But "underdog" is a too strong word in this case for my taste. I consider underdogs as clearly unfavored players which obviously doesn't apply to Serral here.
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On May 01 2019 04:10 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 01:06 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 00:34 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 00:02 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:57 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 23:31 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 19:58 Harris1st wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached).
Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking.
I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. By your logic Maru isn't a "benchmark" either. Or any other player for that matter. Seems a bit over the top don't you think? I didn't say that Serral is no benchmark, just that he isn't as high of a benchmark as he used to be, after it has been demonstrated that he can be beaten by many players who aren't at the very top. I still would rate Serral above Heromarine and Neeb, for example, but players on that level obviously can beat him on a good day. @xain0n I'm not quite sure, if "best zerg in the world" is justified for Serral anymore. He obviously is a contender but Dark has shown much more consistency on a high level apart from Super Tournament and Reynor and soO were able to beat him and many other good players. Sad thing is that Serral will be hard to compare again until probably GSL vs The World and his success or non-success will probably projected back on the time inbetween by you again, like last year. @Dave How convenient. You're concealing the fact that Serral just managed to get 2nd in the two weakest premiers we had this year. Dark this year reached two ro4, one ro8(at WESG where he was eliminated by Serral himself) and one ro16; weaker tournaments or not, Serral lost two finals and went out in ro8 once. Much more consistent at high level? Debatable. "much" more is exaggerated, that's true. But I don't think that 2nd place in half WCS can be measured very high, especially considering that Reynor hasn't had good showings elsewhere. Dark finished better in IEM. Dark finished in Ro4 in GSL which outclasses Serral's 2nd place at WCS by far. And Dark lost a match to Serral at WESG. 2:1 for Dark in terms of overall consistency, I'd say. What kind of tilts those discussions in favor of Serral is, that he barely enters any tournaments where as elimination in early rounds is very likely for a player of his calibre. For a very good player it's more likely to get kicked out of ST in the first round than not making it out of group stage at IEM/WESG/WCS. I don't think there is a single tournament where Serral's elimination in ro16 is very likely; Dark, too, was expected to beat Gumiho(in his most dominant matchup, nevertheless) so that's why I am treating his ro16 placement as a bad result: it counts as -1 for Dark in my opinion, in terms of overall consistency. I'm not saying that it is likely that Serral would be eliminated in a Ro16 of, let's say Super Tournament. But it happens to every great player every now and then as history shows. But it's almost impossible to happen to Serral as long as he doesn't enter Tournaments with very stacked first rounds like Super Tournament. Here is a thought experiment: imagine Serral would've faced Inno in Ro16 at WESG. Or Reynor in he Ro4-match in WCS instead of PtitDrogo. Also you make it sound as if Serral losing in Ro16 of Super Tournament would be an insane surprise right now. That really depends on who he faces. If he'd participated and faced Classic, Maru, Stats, soO or Gumiho I totally could see him being eliminated in the first round (as in he wouldn't be favored in my book). And almost any other player in the ST-bracket would have a shot on a good day as it is in the nature of SC2 that very good players can make upsets vs favored opponents. This is why I don't think that Dark's loss vs Gumiho sais very much about his level. It's not to be taken in his favor of course but if this is a slipup or the beginning of a downwards trend can't be decided yet, especially since he only lost very close to Gumiho who overall impressed at ST. @DSh1 Qualifying for WESG via the korean qualifier is a feat in itself, indeed. But it is only an online qualifier in the end which normally doesn't get valued as high. Also the qualifiers of WESG are way before the actual event (in this case even on another patch). So I think only the performances right at WESG can be taken into acount for measurement of the current skilllevel. Serral losing in ro16 of the Super Tournament would indeed be one insane surprise right now(at the end of 2018 the surprise would have simply been Serral dropping one series) and I do not think he would be the underdog against all of these players. Sc2 seems volatile again in 2019, no one is unbeatable but it's not like everyone is at the same level at once; i am sure Dark is not slumping, that ro16 placement is still kind of bad and goes against the "high level consistency" you are waving. Somehow you're understanding my statements in a black-white manner today. I didn't say that Serral would be the underdog. I just said that he wouldn't be favored vs quite some of the ST Ro16 players. As in it could go either way while I actually do think that soO, Classic and Inno should be considered favored vs Serral right now as soO demonstrated high class ZvZ, Classic demonstrated overall greatness and Inno demonstrated being superior to Serral in a direct match twice this year. Thinking of a loss of Serral against those players as a surprise is kind of ignoring this year's data. But "underdog" is a too strong word in this case for my taste. I consider underdogs as clearly unfavored players which obviously doesn't apply to Serral here.
Mmm I got your statement right, I just chose my words inappropriately. I don't think there is someone clearly favored against Serral at the moment(soO's series was super close, Inno won twice with a mere two maps advantage overall, Classic did not really seem impressive in standard games); Serral is not favored against everyone anymore, that's true.
Theorically Serral could go out with at worst a 50:50 ratio against chosen few but it would even be unlikely for him to face those players.
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On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic.
he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player.
I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed.
Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6.
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On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 04:19 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
I don't see the inconsistency: Serral had his chance to make a point for his case but he didn't and thus he got ranked lower after two PRs in which he was credited with the benefit of the doubt. Stats just made his point for the last PR and thus he also gets the benefit of the doubt now like Serral did. Same goes for Dark.
I think that Dear over Neeb is reasonable, considering that Dear made it to Ro8 in both IEM and GSL after topping his tough groups while Neeb struggled to do so in IEM and WESG (which was the easier tournament). Losing to Zest in PvP in a Ro16 isn't enough information to instantly kick Dear down while Neeb did what he has to do at least to be considered somewhere near the top 10: win WCS winter NA. But yeah - Neeb, Dear, Inno and soO probably could be shuffled around.
Gumiho being ranked 5th is a bold statement but it fits well in the recent PRs with soO instantly getting #1 after IEM and Maru now being 1# because of GSL. Also Inno got ranked #5 after his WESG victory, too.
Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5. Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places. Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower. Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past).
Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean.
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EPT
