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On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6.
Names do not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR.
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On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR.
and that's where you lost all credibility
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On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility
My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall.
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On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility
I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ...
It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place.
Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever.
I love TL
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On May 01 2019 19:31 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ... It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place. Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever. I love TL
Hard to argue with that guy. He pretty much dismissed and discredited Serral's results with every post he made throughout 2018, and when he just kept on winning and took Blizzcon he reverted to just passive aggressive sassy trolling in the LR threads, cuz there werent any arguments left to make against him, save for "dodging code S".
Now that Serral actually does lose things, it's no wonder he's like this. Just let him do his thing, nobody will ever convince him of anything.
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On May 01 2019 19:55 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ... It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place. Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever. I love TL Hard to argue with that guy. He pretty much dismissed and discredited Serral's results with every post he made throughout 2018, and when he just kept on winning and took Blizzcon he reverted to just passive aggressive sassy trolling in the LR threads, cuz there werent any arguments left to make against him, save for "dodging code S". Now that Serral actually does lose things, it's no wonder he's like this. Just let him do his thing, nobody will ever convince him of anything.
Right, I'm the the Serral hater and you guys are reasonable human beings who objectively measure results with no bias towards either koreans or foreigners...
How could I forget that?
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On May 01 2019 20:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:55 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 01 2019 19:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ... It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place. Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever. I love TL Hard to argue with that guy. He pretty much dismissed and discredited Serral's results with every post he made throughout 2018, and when he just kept on winning and took Blizzcon he reverted to just passive aggressive sassy trolling in the LR threads, cuz there werent any arguments left to make against him, save for "dodging code S". Now that Serral actually does lose things, it's no wonder he's like this. Just let him do his thing, nobody will ever convince him of anything. Right, I'm the the Serral hater and you guys are reasonable human beings who objectively measure results with no bias towards either koreans or foreigners... How could I forget that?
All people are biased to some degree, and the way sc2 data is generated is impossible to make 100% objectively correct analysis of the pro scene.
But you just take bias to the next level, and double down.
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On May 01 2019 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 20:29 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:55 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 01 2019 19:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ... It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place. Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever. I love TL Hard to argue with that guy. He pretty much dismissed and discredited Serral's results with every post he made throughout 2018, and when he just kept on winning and took Blizzcon he reverted to just passive aggressive sassy trolling in the LR threads, cuz there werent any arguments left to make against him, save for "dodging code S". Now that Serral actually does lose things, it's no wonder he's like this. Just let him do his thing, nobody will ever convince him of anything. Right, I'm the the Serral hater and you guys are reasonable human beings who objectively measure results with no bias towards either koreans or foreigners... How could I forget that? All people are biased to some degree, and the way sc2 data is generated is impossible to make 100% objectively correct analysis of the pro scene. But you just take bias to the next level, and double down.
nah, compared to your bias my bias is hardly noticably
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On May 01 2019 21:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:24 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 01 2019 20:29 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:55 Geo.Rion wrote:On May 01 2019 19:31 Dave4 wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility I dunno you seem to pick and choose a fair bit. Like "tournament places don't matter" but "who you beat does", but "taking close 2-3 series doesn't" ... It's very arbitrary to push your own position. E.g. you're probably the type who said "Serral can't be the best cause he never beat Maru" when it was Maru who faltered and didn't reach the finals in the first place. Maru just lost to Patience and Inno who are not on the list/10th... And by your own metric, how many top players did Maru even beat to win GSL in the first place? He had no namers then Trap, Dear and Classic from ro8... Not exactly the hardest run ever. I love TL Hard to argue with that guy. He pretty much dismissed and discredited Serral's results with every post he made throughout 2018, and when he just kept on winning and took Blizzcon he reverted to just passive aggressive sassy trolling in the LR threads, cuz there werent any arguments left to make against him, save for "dodging code S". Now that Serral actually does lose things, it's no wonder he's like this. Just let him do his thing, nobody will ever convince him of anything. Right, I'm the the Serral hater and you guys are reasonable human beings who objectively measure results with no bias towards either koreans or foreigners... How could I forget that? All people are biased to some degree, and the way sc2 data is generated is impossible to make 100% objectively correct analysis of the pro scene. But you just take bias to the next level, and double down. nah, compared to your bias my bias is hardly noticably
glad you keep showing how reasonable you are
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On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 05:52 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Serral was never given the benefit of the doubt: soO was skyrocketed at #1 from nowhere after Katowice, and the second place at WESG justified Serral not regressing any further in the following list; it's appropriate to scale him down after his losses this month, but I still see him in top5.
Dark's month was disappointing, I would have had him drop more than two places.
Inno got ranked #5, but now there is one more month of results in 2019 so it would be logical for Gumiho to enter the PR at least one step lower.
Maru's progression is fine, he was just ranked too high in the last PR(and Classic maybe too low). Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt. Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru. How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess  ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean.
I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that.
The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4).
On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall.
Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better.
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On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 11:48 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Now you're denying facts for the sake of your argument. Of course Serral was given the benefit of the doubt. He got ranked #2 in the march PR after finishing in the Ro8 at IEM and losing to Inno in group stage. And he still got ranked #3 after losing to Reynor and Heromarine in group stage of WCS Winter and being beaten by Neeb in group stage of WESG (where he also made a case for himself by finishing 2nd). There are good arguments for having Serral still ranked that high back then, which includes that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Dark month was disappointing, that's true. But after having rightfully earned a consistency #1 in the last PR it is consistent to give him the benefit of the doubt like it was done with Serral, Stats and Maru.
How does being one month more into the year affect the PR? Most recent results are still the highest valued factor in PRs. I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"? It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well). Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better.
Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons.
Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match.
What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen.
My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow.
I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL?
Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff?
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For what it is worth, on soO's stream after winning IEM, soO admitted he has been using Serral's mouse settings and game settings. Has been copying Serral's builds, and basically had been begging Serral for advice in certain matchups. Which means that the Korean pros greatly respect Serral. At least soO does.
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On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 18:43 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
I am not denying anything. Before IEM(with 2018 results being the only one considered), Serral was #1 despite never figuring as such on a PR(although he was crowned best player of the year) with Maru being #2 and Stats #3; then Serral loses one pointless bo3(he already was first in the group) then is narrowly eliminated by the eventual winner and he immediately drops at #2 in the power ranking released shortly after? Maru did worse than him, Stats reached the finals but his 2018 achievements were not comparable to Serral's so that he could not earn the first spot(he was not given, in fact) while soO, who had one irrelevant 2018, was placed first. Are you convinced this was giving Serral the "benefit of the doubt"?
It's true that most recent results are valued more heavily but unlike the first tournament in 2019 whose sole comparison were 2018's one(rated much less), we have now a notable amount of tournaments played this year to consider; Gumiho's 2019 was not exactly great before Super Tournament so the leap he has made into the Power Ranking seems a little disproportioned(Inno's was fine since only IEM and groupstages were played before that while soO's seemed to me exaggerated as well).
Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO. I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff?
I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene.
Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes.
Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all.
What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World.
@Amarillo Caballero
Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018.
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On May 02 2019 00:26 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO.
I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff? I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene. Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes. Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all. What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World. @Amarillo Caballero Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018.
I suggested long ago what a more objective way to compare victories in different tournaments would be: considering both for the average rating of their participants(Aligulac is great but it only looks at map won, you get the same rating by going 1-2(4-4) or 2-1(4-4); this should probably be mediated with some other kind of ranking based on series victories and ignoring maps) and the average rating of the opponents effectively faced during the path to the trophy(assuming Code S S1 2018 and 2019 approximately had the same average league rating, beating sOs, Dark and Stats was harder than taking down Dear, Trap and Classic).
I think a guy on Reddit(?) already did that for 2018 tournaments only, this process should be extended to every competition to obtain someway reliable datas to discuss on; until that, I'll still consider winning better than losing on average and you will still claim korean scene is so ahead this is not true.
Again, much more likely? Are you that convinced #9-#16 korean are so much stronger than #2-#8 foreigners?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 02 2019 00:26 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 18:54 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I'm convinced, because that's just an objectively measurable fact. A player that made it to the Ro8 got ranked 2nd in PR because of his prior achievements 3 months earlier. Without Serral performing that miraculously good in 2018 he wouldn't have been ranked that high. Not only soO but also Stats and Dark would've been ranked above him and it would've been a close call between Serral, Dear and herO.
I can somewhat understand the Gumi criticism but then again: I don't see, who should be ranked above him right now. Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 05:40 Dave4 wrote:
Would expect to see Marus ranking fall considerably next PR to maintain consistency with:
1) soO and Innos plummeted ranks after their wins
2)the fact that Serral's BlizzCon and HSC are seemingly not recent enough to be relevant anymore, therefore Marus first 3 GSLs are obviously out of scope for consideration as well, being well over 6 months ago.
3) Marus lackluster performance in every other non-GSL tournament.
It's obviously a bit early to call ranks without seeing how May progresses, but it'd be controversial to put Maru in top 5 based on the above I think. I guess there's fewer tournaments in May so he might hit 4th/5th.
Also given today's results are still in April it's a bit unfortunate that Marus fall from GSL wasn't considered in the May Power Rankings - Classic really was the ultimate April winner in my eyes.
Thanks for content TL writers. If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff? I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene. Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes. Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all. What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World. @Amarillo Caballero Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018.
ACtually not. Many players gave interviews, that getting the 2nd place and watching the celebrations and the joy hurts as hell, but later it gets better and once the emotions are over you actually realize that being the 2nd best is way better than winning the "loser" league (maybe too harsh translation but I like the term).
The same happens for the 3rd match. Nobody cares because both teams are mentally down, but later they woudl change their decision about "not caring"
Of course getting shiny cup is nice and stuff but if the question stands - getting 2nd place or winning lower competition, many would take the 2nd place. Just don't listen to their opinions after the match 
It also comes down to the size and skill of the team. I bet that Ajax is already celebrating and they are not even in the finals while United are in so deep depression they're doing reconnaissance at the Mariana Trench.
But hey, first price usually comes with shinies and more celebrations, so maybe they just want to drink as much as they can so they need any title 
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On May 02 2019 00:53 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 00:26 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:[quote] Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff? I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene. Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes. Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all. What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World. @Amarillo Caballero Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018. ACtually not. Many players gave interviews, that getting the 2nd place and watching the celebrations and the joy hurts as hell, but later it gets better and once the emotions are over you actually realize that being the 2nd best is way better than winning the "loser" league (maybe too harsh translation but I like the term). The same happens for the 3rd match. Nobody cares because both teams are mentally down, but later they woudl change their decision about "not caring" Of course getting shiny cup is nice and stuff but if the question stands - getting 2nd place or winning lower competition, many would take the 2nd place. Just don't listen to their opinions after the match It also comes down to the size and skill of the team. I bet that Ajax is already celebrating and they are not even in the finals while United are in so deep depression they're doing reconnaissance at the Mariana Trench. But hey, first price usually comes with shinies and more celebrations, so maybe they just want to drink as much as they can so they need any title
Not only prestige of victories is much superior, prize distribution in Sc2 is usually obscenely top heavy(in korean tournaments especially); I share your opinion about third places being more important than most of the people(and the athletes themselves) usually think they are.
Ah, let me point out(it's extremely off topic and I apologize for that, going to strictly stick to sc2 afterwards) Ajax AFC is in reality a more accomplished team than Manchester United in regards of international trophies(10 to 8); they haven't been winning anything for twenty years and their current team is young and hungry, but Ajax actually weights more than MU in the history of football(despite both being at the very top).
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On May 02 2019 00:44 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 00:26 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 29 2019 19:06 Xain0n wrote:[quote] Try to guess ! Gumiho did not even win the tournament, unlike Inno. If those new power rankings in 2019 didn't have the premise of (supposedly)valuing past results more than the previous ones I would share your point of view; some of the players in the first Power Ranking were rated for their monthly performance only, like soO. Serral had indeed to be given the benefit of the doubt and the first place; it did not happen. Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable. And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago. Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:On April 30 2019 17:07 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
If 2) would be true, Serral wouldn't be in the top 10. ?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff? I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene. Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes. Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all. What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World. @Amarillo Caballero Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018. I suggested long ago what a more objective way to compare victories in different tournaments would be: considering both for the average rating of their participants(Aligulac is great but it only looks at map won, you get the same rating by going 1-2(4-4) or 2-1(4-4); this should probably be mediated with some other kind of ranking based on series victories and ignoring maps) and the average rating of the opponents effectively faced during the path to the trophy(assuming Code S S1 2018 and 2019 approximately had the same average league rating, beating sOs, Dark and Stats was harder than taking down Dear, Trap and Classic). I think a guy on Reddit(?) already did that for 2018 tournaments only, this process should be extended to every competition to obtain someway reliable datas to discuss on; until that, I'll still consider winning better than losing on average and you will still claim korean scene is so ahead this is not true. Again, much more likely? Are you that convinced #9-#16 korean are so much stronger than #2-#8 foreigners?
Yes I am conviced. Just look at top 16 of IEM Katowice this and last year: only 3 foreigners in there. This year, of the foreigners capable of making matches close vs Serral or even beating him, only Neeb made it into Ro8 and only Special made it into the #9-#16 stage. The others like Lambo, Scarlett, Reynor, Heromarine all placed below or didn't even qualify.
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On May 02 2019 03:16 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2019 00:44 Xain0n wrote:On May 02 2019 00:26 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 22:50 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 21:50 fronkschnonk wrote:On May 01 2019 18:32 Anc13nt wrote:On April 30 2019 19:47 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 19:25 fronkschnonk wrote:On April 30 2019 18:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 17:28 fronkschnonk wrote:
[quote]
Yes, Gumiho didn't win unlike Inno but Inno didn't even qualify and also WESG had a much easier player pool and therefore their achievements are comparable.
And again regarding Serral in first PR this year: Serral was given the benefit of the doubt -just not as much as you would've liked it. Consistency is a factor, but it can't outmatch most recent results - especially if the consistency was proven 3 months ago.
Also soO wasn't only rated for his monthly performance. He also topped his GSL group before IEM and had very good online results since mid december. Online results are not as important of course but they can give a more solid picture when there is uncertainty about a ranking. Inno and Gumiho's achievements are not comparable, even admitting Super Tournament(all korean field, first prize being a meager 9k) is harder than WESG(more games agaist a weaker field but Inno had to face Serral in the finals and took home 150k), I would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory(as I already said, unless there is a huge difference between the tournaments said results were reached). Again, if the first PR of this year didn't have to take into consideration 2018's results I would have agreed on soO being #1, looking at his GSL and online results we could conclude he had strictly the best results in 2019; however, those alone should have been insufficient to make him leapfrog directly to the top of the ranking. I would like to add that, despite my posts may seem pretty critical towards Power Rankings, I am just sharing my point of view about the ranking itself; I am glad those articles are written and I thank TL's writers for them hoping many more will follow on a monthly basis. So you'd also say that winning a WCS tournament is a better feat than reaching the finals of GSL or IEM? I'm not comparing Gumihos loss to Innos victory btw but Gumihos 4 wins vs top opponents (including Qualifiers) on his road to the finals while Inno had to beat 2 top opponents in order to win WESG. And Serral isn't as much of a benchmark anymore since he proved his vulnerability multiple times now. Serral is still the best Zerg in the world, you cannot downgrade him because he started losing series instead of winning every single one of that; judging paths instead of results in tournaments brings us to a wholly different dimension, every placement should be reevaluated. I can tell you winning WCS might not be better than reaching a Code S final, but is also definitely not worse than losing in one(nowadays, it was very different in the past). Most top foreigners can compete well against Koreans but if you look at GSL vs World and Blizzcon, Koreans usually win close to 2/3 of the games. With that being said, I would say winning a WCS Circuit is a bit more difficult than making GSL ro8 and probably close to as difficult as making GSL ro4. I'll admit that if you're not Serral, winning WCS Circuit would be pretty damn hard, even for a strong Korean. I have to say this again: GSL vs The World and Blizzcon aren't good measurements for foreigner skill vs korean skill because the number of participating foreigners is artificially inflated while quite some top korean aren't participating. So we have all the best foreigners (because there aren't that much on such a high level) but not all the best koreans at those tournaments. GSL vs The World was filled by invites based on community votings on top of that. The only somewhat realistic picture is drawn by IEM katowice in which only two foreigners made it to the top12 (and also advanced to RO8. In 2018 only Serral made it to the top12 (and impressively made it to the Ro4). On May 01 2019 19:27 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 19:16 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2019 19:04 Xain0n wrote:On May 01 2019 17:20 Charoisaur wrote:On April 30 2019 20:28 Dave4 wrote:
[quote]
?? Serral is rank 6 because he has two silver premier medals so far this year though. Only other person above that is Classic. he beat 0 top 10 players at WCS and 1 top 10 player at WESG so no, that doesn't make him a top 10 player. I know all you do is open liquipedia and count the entries in the achievements category because it fits your narrative but that approach is just completely flawed. Replace Serral's ID with Elazer or Lambo and he wouldn't be at #6. Names does not count, results do! There is no way someone reaching WESG and WCS finals after a ro8 placenent in Katowice is not even top 10 on a PR. and that's where you lost all credibility My credibility is intact, I just evaluate tournaments and results in a less korean centric way than you do but I think I'm pretty coherent overall. Of course this is no factor for one's credibility. But I have to agree that your approach "names do not count, results do" is heavily flawed because it kind of ignores the difficulty of each event and of individual tournament paths of the players. Your statements that winning a WCS final is always better than losing a final of way harder competition shows that very well, because you're not acknowledging the fact that a GSL finalist probably won 2-3 matches (with bad luck in group seeding perhaps even more) as hard or harder than a WCS circuit final can be in order to reach the finals. Losing a final doesn't make the loser suddenly way worse than his prior wins in the same tournament indicated. It just means that there is someone in that tournament who is even better. Actually, WCS point system does not grant that all the best foreigners will be at BlizzCon; for example Scarlett, Reynor and Elazer were all missing last year due to different reasons. Not sharing a qualifier in no way affects the fact you will have to face and beat the best koreans to advance at or even win GSL vs the World and BlizzCon, if the difference in skill was as high as it was back in the days you'd be seeing no foreigner win a match. What I said about WCS and Code S finals is not what you are reporting here, reread my phrase; still, I heavily contest the belief there are two or three stages of Code S that are harder or as hard of a WCS final circuit, one must be really unlucky for that to happen. My heavily flawed approach is the one most traditional sports(and korean culture too:look at the prize for the second place or how devastated soO was because of his endless streak of second places) follow. I don't know if you follow football(I do; european football of course), we could try to compare WCS to Europa League and Code S to Champions League(or even better UEFA Cup and Champions League at the end of the '90 in terms of relative prizes, prestige and competitivity of the field): the first is for sure harder and most prestigious, but would you really want to lose a Champions final instead of winning EL? Moreover, if my approach is that wrong, how could it happen that Serral was crowned player of the year by TL's staff? I checked and you're right. You didn't say that winning WCS is better than losing in a finals of GSL or IEM. You basically said it's equal which is still a huge overestimation of the foreign scene. Right before that you stated that you "would never consider one loss to be on par with a victory" referring to Gumiho's 2nd and Inno's 1rst place at ST and WESG. That statement was made in such a generalising way that it sticked to my mind as being appliable to any premier event in your eyes. Your comparison to others sports is kind of pointless. Of course almost anybody will prefer being 1rst in a less prestigious/competetive tournament than being 2nd in a tougher one. But that doesn't say anything about the measurement of skill but just about the human nature to be emotionally drawn to win stuff. But this all-or-nothing-approach only tells us something about human emotions and is no objective criterion at all. What the non-shared qualifier does affect is the amount of high tier players you'll have to beat in a tournament. This is why it would be much more likely for Serral (or anyone) to be eliminated at Ro16 of ST than at Ro16 of GSL vs The World. @Amarillo Caballero Nobody questions that Serral is highly respected by Koreans. Of course he is, after beating many of 'em in 2018. I suggested long ago what a more objective way to compare victories in different tournaments would be: considering both for the average rating of their participants(Aligulac is great but it only looks at map won, you get the same rating by going 1-2(4-4) or 2-1(4-4); this should probably be mediated with some other kind of ranking based on series victories and ignoring maps) and the average rating of the opponents effectively faced during the path to the trophy(assuming Code S S1 2018 and 2019 approximately had the same average league rating, beating sOs, Dark and Stats was harder than taking down Dear, Trap and Classic). I think a guy on Reddit(?) already did that for 2018 tournaments only, this process should be extended to every competition to obtain someway reliable datas to discuss on; until that, I'll still consider winning better than losing on average and you will still claim korean scene is so ahead this is not true. Again, much more likely? Are you that convinced #9-#16 korean are so much stronger than #2-#8 foreigners? Yes I am conviced. Just look at top 16 of IEM Katowice this and last year: only 3 foreigners in there. This year, of the foreigners capable of making matches close vs Serral or even beating him, only Neeb made it into Ro8 and only Special made it into the #9-#16 stage. The others like Lambo, Scarlett, Reynor, Heromarine all placed below or didn't even qualify.
It's not like Katowice is the ultimate tournament, otherwise the Terran race would have gone exctinct already.
Thus said, even representation at BlizzCon probably is not the fairest system but I wouldn't skew it much in favor of koreans(probably the top 10 koreans and 6 foreigners would be the best at the moment).
You have not answered yet me on how could Serral be named best player of the year in 2018 if he achieved that on top of the equivalent of less than four consecutive ro8 placements in Code S(in addiction to his international successes, of course).
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the dave4 tears are delicious.
region lock inflates results. region lock killed the korean scene in an attempt to "close the gap" by eliminating the competition, not improving the foreigner skill. of course names count. lulz. too much delusion
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On May 02 2019 04:24 fishjie wrote:
the dave4 tears are delicious.
region lock inflates results. region lock killed the korean scene in an attempt to "close the gap" by eliminating the competition, not improving the foreigner skill. of course names count. lulz. too much delusion
Not improving foreigner skills? Have you watched Serral play last year? Delusion, you say...hmm.
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EPT
