not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
I think Serral looked stronger than Maru last year (he had higher winrate against Koreans) but Maru had the better tournament run. Serral's tournament run in 2018 is honestly comparable to Rogue's in late 2017-early 2018 (4 WCS + Blizzcon + GSL vs the World and some semifinals is around as impressive as winning IEM Shanghai, Super Tournamnent, IEM WC and Blizzcon). I bring this up since I think most people would agree Maru's run was more impressive than Rogue's (no one has ever even gotten close to winning 3 GSls in a row besides Nestea). Even though Maru's winrates weren't amazing in the process, I think he has the most impressive run in SC2 history.
You are not considering HSC; while not classified as Premier it was a notable tournament, the icing on Serral's cake.
Rogue's run took place across two different seasons; also, he didn't do well at his own regional competition(Code S), unlike Serral. I won't stop repeating that winning four separate tournaments is hard, and that WCS was a proper Premier in 2018 despite being still obviously easier than GSL.
To me, Serral's run is better than Rogue's.
Yeah, because Code S and WCS is so much comparable ><
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
That's true, but Inno couldn't be considered a top 3 Terran at the time considering his results.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
it would still be 25% because the possible finals are:
Scarlett vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Serral vs Inno Serral vs Maru 25% for Serral vs Maru
The Corresponding 3rd place matches would then be: Serral vs Maru Serral vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Scarlett vs Inno again 25% for Serral vs Maru
so Serral vs Maru is possible in 2 of out 8 matches, therefore, if I did my math correctly, is 25% for Serral vs Maru
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
yeah but Serral was also almost always playing vs Koreans in GSL vs the World
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
it would still be 25% because the possible finals are:
Scarlett vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Serral vs Inno Serral vs Maru 25% for Serral vs Maru
The Corresponding 3rd place matches would then be: Serral vs Maru Serral vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Scarlett vs Inno again 25% for Serral vs Maru
so Serral vs Maru is possible in 2 of out 8 matches, therefore, if I did my math correctly, is 25% for Serral vs Maru
The maths are really simple:
Serral w - Maru w : 1/4 good (1/4 because 1/2 * 1/2, good because Maru and Serral meet) Serral w - Maru l : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru w : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru l : 1/4 good
1/4+1/4 = 1/2
Basically your error comes from the fact that there are 4 possibilities not 8
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
At the time of GSL vs The World Gumiho clearly belonged int the top 3 terrans instead of Inno. Gumi made it to Ro8 of CodeS before and after GSL vs The World while Inno did not
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
To emphasize your point: May as starting point of Serral's dominance is a bold assumption since he only proved his capability of winning vs toughest competition in august. Also, since he wasn't playing Maru (nobody's fault) he wasn't solely dominant for quite some time with Maru dominating GSLs before and after GSL vs The World.
I had edited already as it was a wrong statement: Serral started dominating WCS in January and globally in August. As for Maru, his Code S domination could have not ended yet, but if we look at the global scene he was dethroned after GSL vs the World.
Well, I still don't think that Maru can be called dethroned internationally because of losing one match and going on to win GSL afterwards. You also didn't want to call Serral dethroned after losing to Inno and soO at IEM and I'd have supported your case if he hadn't lost vs Neeb in group stage. As the case for Serral being #1 after IEM is way shakier than calling Maru still globally dominant after his 3rd GSL win, I hardly can grasp your logic here.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
You're correct. This is why I'll keep on the discussion Also because I think that the case isn't nearly as settled as many think due to the TL 2018 awards, so it is my purpose to not let this impression stabilize ^^
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Hey, I never balance whined. The weird thing is: many are discussing Maru vs Serral as if this was a continuation for the competition of the title "best player in the world". But it's not. Maru lost to sOs in GSL Super Tournament and Blizzcon and Serral lost to Inno and soO at IEM and now vs Neeb in group stage. They perhaps can become the best again and winning WESG would be an important but not sufficient step to surely claim that title again. So most of the discussion is wether Serral or Maru was the greatest of 2018. Also, as others said: Maru, or Flash in BW are exceptions. Players that are ahead of many others. It can be misleading to judge balance by looking at the very best players. If one does this then mizenhower's famous patchzerg allegation becomes the default claim for any champion of any big tournament which would be just dumb.
I told you already and I'll say it again here.
Now, in 2019, I can say Maru was no the dominant force last year after GSL vs the World because it's history that he didn't win any international tournament after August; nobody thought he wasn't dominant anymore at the time as losing a single tournament might not be significant. However, Maru was eliminated at BlizzCon(and he didn't play at HSC), allowing me to retrospectively state GSL vs the World was indeed the turning point; Code S is a regional korean tournament, despite accepting foreigners in the qualifiers, as players are effectively forced to spend months in Korea in order to play their games, given the current schedule of the tournament.
If we could know that Serral wouldn't win tournaments for months after IEM, it would be right to say he's no more dominant now; we don't have foresight so we'll have to wait, our perspective is too narrow at the moment to judge appropriately.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
yeah but Serral was also almost always playing vs Koreans in GSL vs the World
Yes, that's why I wrote Serral plays Koreans in tournaments here and there, but not consistently because he's not playing in Korea. His fans need to deal with this situation, it's absolutely a fine choice for Serral but there will be doubts. That's how it is. That's why Zest wasn't so questioned.
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
EDIT: What does "is it though" even mean? It makes no sense reading over my initial post.
This was me poking fun at your attempt at snarkiness that spilled out instead as stupidity. You clearly dont understand the words you use and it is entertaining. Nice completely random reply about BW tho lol.
I am so sick of people saying Serral is “dodging” Koreans by playing in WCS. Last time I checked his region designation is Europe. OF COURSE HE IS PLAYING IN IT. It’s the league his country is assigned to. We may see him in a GSL down the line this year l, and I would love to see him try, but it is not something he is REQUIRED to do. I guarantee you that the Koreans would prefer he stayed out because if he does participate that’s a lot of WCS Korea points that won’t be going to their players.
The reason there are no foreigners in the first season (aside from Scarlett), was that Blizzard implemented a rule making them choose: GSL or Challenger and no one is wanting to give up their Circuit points for a chance at GSL glory (the rule has since been revoked).
What I’d like to see is any “Korea points” won by foreigners applied to their Circuit total instead. Scarlett made a Ro8 and missed out on BlizzCon last year because in the grand scheme it did nothing for her.
And do you think Afreeca doesn’t want Serral in their tournament? Their ratings go up whenever a foreigner does well. Serral himself has inferred that he doesn’t like the idea of taking slots provided for the Koreans (which is commendable), but I imagine you may get your wish in season 2 or 3 this year based on rumors circling through the community.
But to say Serral is “dodging” Koreans by playing in the Circuit which is designated for him instead - don’t make me laugh.
I think the problem is not people saying Serral is dodging koreans. It's fine depending on the timing of the people saying that.
For example, if incredibly biased viewers post things such as: "wow look at Serral invincibility streak, so long, best player of sc2 etcetc", it's perfectly fine to remind everyone that Serral's streak would probably have ended sooner was he playing in GSL.
Maybe he would have still kept winning in this setting but we can't know :o.
its not that serral is dodging koreans its that his stats were inflated by region lock. he was best player in 2018, but all his wcs wins don't really mean anything because there wasn't korean competition. reynor, scarlett, special and neeb are pretty good and can compete in GSL and there's no need for region locking, let's see how good serral really is
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
Yea I don't see how this can even be argued against...
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
I never said WCS is as hard as Code S; still, it's incredibly silly to think it is incomparably worse. Foreigner's skill level has become much closer to that of the koreans in LoTV as confirmed by Neeb's ro4, Scarlett's ro8, Reynor's ro16 runs(in 2018 only).
Now, you are the one who's deluded, evidently, since you call "undeniable truth" that Maru's achievements cannot be compared to Serral's(I'd agree if you were saying they are hard to compare since they play in different circuits but you mean that Maru's are incredibly ahead of Serral's); it's such a pity that the majority of the people on this forum and Team Liquid writers both seem to think that's not the case(guess who won Player of the Year?).
You make "concessions" on Serral's skill while every competent Sc2 follower could see the level he attained last year; being able to compare Maru and Serral's achievements is not something you'd have to concede as well and that we dare to do this in spite of one glaring truth.
Divergent opinions are welcome, your attitude is indeed laughable; may I use your statements for my signature?
EPT
