The $240,000 WESG tournament is headed towards its grand finale with just four players remaining after two rounds of playoff matches. In the first semifinal match, reigning Global Champion Serral faces off against Scarlett, one of the few Zerg players to defeat the Finnish Phenom in a BO5 during his dominant 2018 campaign. In the opposite side of the bracket, defending WESG champion Maru takes on INnoVation in a battle between two of the greatest Terran players in StarCraft II's history.
The semifinals are set to begin on Saturday, Mar 16 7:00am GMT (GMT+00:00) with Scarlett vs Serral. The grand finals are scheduled for March 17th.
that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
Maru and Serral are two of the three elite players left at this event (compared to the 10 ish of blizzcon and 15 ish at katowice) and I still feel like we won't actually see them play eachother.
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
If Serral and Maru meet in 3rd place match then either of the losing will be explained by "not caring for 3rd place"
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
If Serral and Maru meet in 3rd place match then either of the losing will be explained by "not caring for 3rd place"
true, though it's still 10k$ difference in prize money. then again, considering their total earnings both maru and serral might not see it as a big sum of money.
saying "Maru defends title in final four" implies he has already defended his title he won the tournament. it would be more appropriate to say "Maru to defend title in final four". JUST SAYAN
On March 14 2019 23:18 rave[wcr] wrote: saying "Maru defends title in final four" implies he has already defended his title he won the tournament. it would be more appropriate to say "Maru to defend title in final four". JUST SAYAN
We all know Maru's already won. If he loses, it's because of TvT imbalance and jet lag.
I honestly don’t remember the last time there was quite THIS much potential epicness. ZvZ is currently a great matchup to watch, same with TvT, and we’re guaranteed a TvZ Korean vs foreigner, with a possibility of Maru vs Serral.
Super stoked to see the best Korean Terran vs. the best foreign Zerg. Hopefully it's not too late for the phenomenal Serral v. Maru that Stats ruined at BlizzCon.
Scarlett seems to be one of the few Zergs that have Serral's number (including soO of course), but I'm not sure I see Scarlett beating the Terran.
The cool thing though is that Serral can't avoid ZvT this time. Either in 3rd place match or finals, he'll have to face either Maru / INno and there won't be excuse of meaningless match for either of the participants.
Will he finally get exposed? Or will he finally cement himself as the best zerg in all three matchups?
I like this Top4 a lot, i think the best and most expected outcome will be Serral vs Maru with either of them winning, i prefer Serral. But if Scarlett beats Innovation in the final i can see riots breaking out and i would love it.
On March 14 2019 23:45 Astrapto wrote: Super stoked to see the best Korean Terran vs. the best foreign Zerg. Hopefully it's not too late for the phenomenal Serral v. Maru that Stats ruined at BlizzCon.
Scarlett seems to be one of the few Zergs that have Serral's number (including soO of course), but I'm not sure I see Scarlett beating the Terran.
her form against terran looks quite twisted as she went 1-2 in this match-up at IEM lost to TY and uThermal but beat Special twice in a row including on this tournament
maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
So if we get a Maru-Serral finals there is gonna be some interesting voices from the community:
Maru/Serral fanboys: "you know what, WESG is not such a bad tournament after all"
Kinda reminds me of TL fans after that IBP Masters shitshow in CSGO earlier this year. (but tbf WESG actually looks pretty decent compared to that event)
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Nobody said Maru didn't care about BlizzCon without trolling. Where did you see that?
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Nobody said Maru didn't care about BlizzCon without trolling. Where did you see that?
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
Nah he does not care about money. He only cares about the prestige of GSL. Ask his fanbois, they will explain it to you
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
Although I am INnoVation fan, I don't think you need to be one to think INnoVation is the GOAT. That said, I think the whoever wins the semifinal matches, the final will be epic.
On March 14 2019 22:37 Fango wrote: Maru and Serral are two of the three elite players left at this event (compared to the 10 ish of blizzcon and 15 ish at katowice) and I still feel like we won't actually see them play eachother.
I think you are underrating Innovation tbh, even though his results have not been amazing lately I would still rate him as an elite player!
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
That's the reason I hope Serral will win: cause otherwise the insufferable Maru fan boys will be popping off.
Also I'm ok (and I root for him) that Innovation will beat Maru. Because there are no insufferable Inno fanboys and he's a better player than Maru anyway.
On March 14 2019 23:45 Astrapto wrote: Super stoked to see the best Korean Terran vs. the best foreign Zerg. Hopefully it's not too late for the phenomenal Serral v. Maru that Stats ruined at BlizzCon.
Scarlett seems to be one of the few Zergs that have Serral's number (including soO of course), but I'm not sure I see Scarlett beating the Terran.
that's what I'm worrying about yea Serral is overall the better bet in his match against Scarlett but its not a sure win but if Scarlett wins her zvt isn't looking so good right even though she herself looks to be in a very calm and peaceful place. so if she makes it to the final while she has always chance just a very very uphill to climb should that happen.
I wish they had better casters. Rotti and Lowko are great but Rapid and Wardi cannot be worse. A lot of times I don't even know what they are talking about and all the awkward moments they made with the other cast. Where are Tastosis???
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
Inno vs Serral could be fun to watch. The rematch of HSC final and the fisrt loose of the year for Serral at IEM stage groupe. Could Inno be the nemesis of Serral ?! Will he be the avenger of his former team mate Dark ?
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
On March 13 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: The amount of excuses made up for Maru's loses is now officially higher than Mount Everest
Do you think its even higher then the amount of bullcrap with which serral fans try to justify serral loses?
Yes, much much higher. I have never once seen anyone claim that "Serral doesn't try in xxx games"
People were literally saying that when he lost to INno at IEM the other week.
And it's not just Maru's fans saying it either. It started because Maru himself said he didn't practice for the smaller events and took them as a break.
BlizzCon and IEM, those irrelevant tournaments!
The only loss Serral suffered that might be due to him actually not trying is the online 0-3 against Neeb right before BlizzCon, his level of play in that tournament was really weird considering the godlike Starcraft he played shortly after; Serral had two korean Protoss in his group…
As for Serral's loss against Inno, I wouldn't say he did not try but it's a fact that the match became irrelevant after Serral won the first map; what I strongly adversed was the idea those losses necessarily implied Serral's lategame ZvT being bad and Inno being favored once the games reach this stage. Inno played better those last two maps and rightfully won ; it's to be seen if he can manage to do it on a regular basis.
Speaking of soO vs Serral, I said Serral might have even looked a little better than soO mechanically on average during the series(very onesided victories and one incredibly hard comeback almost taken home in g3); however, soO's decision making was better and he committed less errors, let alone devastating ones like Serral's utter fail into gg in g2, totally deserving his victory. I don't see how this opinion can be summarized into "Serral played better and no one knows how he lost".
The last one at WESG is pretty self explanatory: Serral might have been sick but that's not unlike not being in shape, Neeb won convincingly, gg to him.
Don't force your view on Maru. Winning a home tournament where everyone has the time to prepare may be more important than Blizzcon for him. Similarly to the Proleague title(which was valued very highly).
Edit> Also moar excuses about Serral loses
Apparently, Maru lost at Blizzcon, which he had 5 weeks to prep for, because he cares about the GSL more, which had already concluded.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
On March 13 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: The amount of excuses made up for Maru's loses is now officially higher than Mount Everest
Do you think its even higher then the amount of bullcrap with which serral fans try to justify serral loses?
Yes, much much higher. I have never once seen anyone claim that "Serral doesn't try in xxx games"
People were literally saying that when he lost to INno at IEM the other week.
And it's not just Maru's fans saying it either. It started because Maru himself said he didn't practice for the smaller events and took them as a break.
BlizzCon and IEM, those irrelevant tournaments!
The only loss Serral suffered that might be due to him actually not trying is the online 0-3 against Neeb right before BlizzCon, his level of play in that tournament was really weird considering the godlike Starcraft he played shortly after; Serral had two korean Protoss in his group…
As for Serral's loss against Inno, I wouldn't say he did not try but it's a fact that the match became irrelevant after Serral won the first map; what I strongly adversed was the idea those losses necessarily implied Serral's lategame ZvT being bad and Inno being favored once the games reach this stage. Inno played better those last two maps and rightfully won ; it's to be seen if he can manage to do it on a regular basis.
Speaking of soO vs Serral, I said Serral might have even looked a little better than soO mechanically on average during the series(very onesided victories and one incredibly hard comeback almost taken home in g3); however, soO's decision making was better and he committed less errors, let alone devastating ones like Serral's utter fail into gg in g2, totally deserving his victory. I don't see how this opinion can be summarized into "Serral played better and no one knows how he lost".
The last one at WESG is pretty self explanatory: Serral might have been sick but that's not unlike not being in shape, Neeb won convincingly, gg to him.
Don't force your view on Maru. Winning a home tournament where everyone has the time to prepare may be more important than Blizzcon for him. Similarly to the Proleague title(which was valued very highly).
Edit> Also moar excuses about Serral loses
Apparently, Maru lost at Blizzcon, which he had 5 weeks to prep for, because he cares about the GSL more, which had already concluded.
Well the smiley from his post doesn't help your case, he is blatantly trolling/baiting.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
Although I am INnoVation fan, I don't think you need to be one to think INnoVation is the GOAT. That said, I think the whoever wins the semifinal matches, the final will be epic.
There is no clear GOAT in Sc2, Inno is surely in contention for the title but I see at least two other candidates for this title. Another Premier in 2019 would make everyone scream for GOAT more convincingly; I have to say I'm not strongly against that but I would clearly prefer another outcome. Inno as well has a couple of insufferable fanboys, by the way.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
This was said just the other day
On March 14 2019 00:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:01 Fango wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:42 Amarillo Caballero wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
On March 13 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: The amount of excuses made up for Maru's loses is now officially higher than Mount Everest
Do you think its even higher then the amount of bullcrap with which serral fans try to justify serral loses?
Yes, much much higher. I have never once seen anyone claim that "Serral doesn't try in xxx games"
People were literally saying that when he lost to INno at IEM the other week.
And it's not just Maru's fans saying it either. It started because Maru himself said he didn't practice for the smaller events and took them as a break.
BlizzCon and IEM, those irrelevant tournaments!
The only loss Serral suffered that might be due to him actually not trying is the online 0-3 against Neeb right before BlizzCon, his level of play in that tournament was really weird considering the godlike Starcraft he played shortly after; Serral had two korean Protoss in his group…
As for Serral's loss against Inno, I wouldn't say he did not try but it's a fact that the match became irrelevant after Serral won the first map; what I strongly adversed was the idea those losses necessarily implied Serral's lategame ZvT being bad and Inno being favored once the games reach this stage. Inno played better those last two maps and rightfully won ; it's to be seen if he can manage to do it on a regular basis.
Speaking of soO vs Serral, I said Serral might have even looked a little better than soO mechanically on average during the series(very onesided victories and one incredibly hard comeback almost taken home in g3); however, soO's decision making was better and he committed less errors, let alone devastating ones like Serral's utter fail into gg in g2, totally deserving his victory. I don't see how this opinion can be summarized into "Serral played better and no one knows how he lost".
The last one at WESG is pretty self explanatory: Serral might have been sick but that's not unlike not being in shape, Neeb won convincingly, gg to him.
Don't force your view on Maru. Winning a home tournament where everyone has the time to prepare may be more important than Blizzcon for him. Similarly to the Proleague title(which was valued very highly).
Edit> Also moar excuses about Serral loses
Apparently, Maru lost at Blizzcon, which he had 5 weeks to prep for, because he cares about the GSL more, which had already concluded.
Well the smiley from his post doesn't help your case, he is blatantly trolling/baiting.
Oh, he's clearly baiting/trolling about the Serral excuses because he knows it'll make Serral fanboys mad, as it did, but his other statement seemed pretty genuine imo
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
This was said just the other day
On March 14 2019 00:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:01 Fango wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:42 Amarillo Caballero wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
On March 13 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: The amount of excuses made up for Maru's loses is now officially higher than Mount Everest
Do you think its even higher then the amount of bullcrap with which serral fans try to justify serral loses?
Yes, much much higher. I have never once seen anyone claim that "Serral doesn't try in xxx games"
People were literally saying that when he lost to INno at IEM the other week.
And it's not just Maru's fans saying it either. It started because Maru himself said he didn't practice for the smaller events and took them as a break.
BlizzCon and IEM, those irrelevant tournaments!
The only loss Serral suffered that might be due to him actually not trying is the online 0-3 against Neeb right before BlizzCon, his level of play in that tournament was really weird considering the godlike Starcraft he played shortly after; Serral had two korean Protoss in his group…
As for Serral's loss against Inno, I wouldn't say he did not try but it's a fact that the match became irrelevant after Serral won the first map; what I strongly adversed was the idea those losses necessarily implied Serral's lategame ZvT being bad and Inno being favored once the games reach this stage. Inno played better those last two maps and rightfully won ; it's to be seen if he can manage to do it on a regular basis.
Speaking of soO vs Serral, I said Serral might have even looked a little better than soO mechanically on average during the series(very onesided victories and one incredibly hard comeback almost taken home in g3); however, soO's decision making was better and he committed less errors, let alone devastating ones like Serral's utter fail into gg in g2, totally deserving his victory. I don't see how this opinion can be summarized into "Serral played better and no one knows how he lost".
The last one at WESG is pretty self explanatory: Serral might have been sick but that's not unlike not being in shape, Neeb won convincingly, gg to him.
Don't force your view on Maru. Winning a home tournament where everyone has the time to prepare may be more important than Blizzcon for him. Similarly to the Proleague title(which was valued very highly).
Edit> Also moar excuses about Serral loses
Apparently, Maru lost at Blizzcon, which he had 5 weeks to prep for, because he cares about the GSL more, which had already concluded.
Well the smiley from his post doesn't help your case, he is blatantly trolling/baiting.
The smiley is at the end of another phrase, the one regarding my "excuses" for Serral's recent defeats.
HSC XVIII wasn't technically a Premier because the first place was rewarded with 8k instead of 10k; Inno reaching the finals should be of some relevance nevertheless. Excluding Code S and WESG doesn't seem like cherrypicking a little? There were no Terran in the finals at GSL the World, BlizzCon and IEM, ok; Terran seems fine overall.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
I agree, it is unlikely, but don't expect he'd have had a much worse record, his streak against koreans was still the longest ever seen; it would have probably ended sooner but not necessarily ran shorter considering Code S qualifiers and non top koreans in the groupstage.
In a wholly open Sc2 in one ideal world in which everyone takes part(or try to) to the every event without limitations, Serral wouldn't have gone undefeated and almost certainly wouldn't have won his 4 consecutive WCS; still, Serral's peak form would have been too much for anyone to handle and I think he might have won at least Code S S3(he had already ascended and Maru struggled a little to win his last title).
On March 15 2019 02:52 Waxangel wrote: If we could make a Rodya-signal to shine into the sky, what do you think the image should be of? Maybe the Korean flag?
Regardless, a truly sick top four card, and a hyped finals guaranteed whichever way it goes.
it should be a joker card with mirrors on both side, on one side is rodya, and the other side is dave
On March 15 2019 02:52 Waxangel wrote: If we could make a Rodya-signal to shine into the sky, what do you think the image should be of? Maybe the Korean flag?
Regardless, a truly sick top four card, and a hyped finals guaranteed whichever way it goes.
Amazing idea! I think there must be an eagle involved as it is the Terran race icon, maybe painted as the Korean flag. I like Fishije's suggestion, Dave's side would have the Zerg icon with USA's flag(?) colours.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
As a Maru fan I hope he wins it all, but he has been looking shaky, especially against zerg. He was playing on ladder against Soo a day ago, and he felt frustrated that he could not do anything but defend. Also innovation has a good shot against him.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Hoping for a Scarlett vs Innovation finals, since they are two of my favourite players, and then we get that Maru-Serral for third! More seriously, I can see Scarlett upsetting Serral in a close 3-2, but I think beating Maru/Inno might be too much, though everything is possible. So imo: Serral >= Maru > Inno > Scarlett.
I Like these 4 players, so whatever its the outcome it will be good.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
That's true, but Inno couldn't be considered a top 3 Terran at the time considering his results.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating the global scene after GSL vs the World.
The funny thing is, even if Maru or Serral 4-0s the other literally nobody's mind will change about anything, and goalpost-moving and rationalizing will still be going on strong.
EDIT: On a different note, are we getting player interviews at the semis or grand finals? It'd truly be a shame if once the games end it just goes back to the casters saying "thanks for watching!"
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year.
Respect ur opinion and the TL writers as well but obviously disagree. Implying that its not debatable would be foolish on either end.
btw if you didn't realize yet, soO is still a Kong, because his win at IEM wasn't a Korean league.
Even if he does not care for non Korean events I'm pretty sure Maru likes money, so that would be a very bad argument if he were to lose a hypothetical grand final vs Serral.
BlizzCon was almost twice IEM's prize and people still said Maru didn't care.
Can you find an actual post of someone saying Maru didn't care about blizzcon? He literally said at the start of last year his goal was to win 3xCode S and blizzcon
money shouldnt be the reason a tourment is a premier its the quailtie of the players that should count more the title of a premier event.
This was said just the other day
On March 14 2019 00:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:24 Xain0n wrote:
On March 14 2019 00:01 Fango wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:42 Amarillo Caballero wrote:
On March 13 2019 23:32 MarianoSC2 wrote:
On March 13 2019 22:58 Harris1st wrote: The amount of excuses made up for Maru's loses is now officially higher than Mount Everest
Do you think its even higher then the amount of bullcrap with which serral fans try to justify serral loses?
Yes, much much higher. I have never once seen anyone claim that "Serral doesn't try in xxx games"
People were literally saying that when he lost to INno at IEM the other week.
And it's not just Maru's fans saying it either. It started because Maru himself said he didn't practice for the smaller events and took them as a break.
BlizzCon and IEM, those irrelevant tournaments!
The only loss Serral suffered that might be due to him actually not trying is the online 0-3 against Neeb right before BlizzCon, his level of play in that tournament was really weird considering the godlike Starcraft he played shortly after; Serral had two korean Protoss in his group…
As for Serral's loss against Inno, I wouldn't say he did not try but it's a fact that the match became irrelevant after Serral won the first map; what I strongly adversed was the idea those losses necessarily implied Serral's lategame ZvT being bad and Inno being favored once the games reach this stage. Inno played better those last two maps and rightfully won ; it's to be seen if he can manage to do it on a regular basis.
Speaking of soO vs Serral, I said Serral might have even looked a little better than soO mechanically on average during the series(very onesided victories and one incredibly hard comeback almost taken home in g3); however, soO's decision making was better and he committed less errors, let alone devastating ones like Serral's utter fail into gg in g2, totally deserving his victory. I don't see how this opinion can be summarized into "Serral played better and no one knows how he lost".
The last one at WESG is pretty self explanatory: Serral might have been sick but that's not unlike not being in shape, Neeb won convincingly, gg to him.
Don't force your view on Maru. Winning a home tournament where everyone has the time to prepare may be more important than Blizzcon for him. Similarly to the Proleague title(which was valued very highly).
Edit> Also moar excuses about Serral loses
Apparently, Maru lost at Blizzcon, which he had 5 weeks to prep for, because he cares about the GSL more, which had already concluded.
Well the smiley from his post doesn't help your case, he is blatantly trolling/baiting.
The smiley is at the end of another phrase, the one regarding my "excuses" for Serral's recent defeats.
HSC XVIII wasn't technically a Premier because the first place was rewarded with 8k instead of 10k; Inno reaching the finals should be of some relevance nevertheless. Excluding Code S and WESG doesn't seem like cherrypicking a little? There were no Terran in the finals at GSL the World, BlizzCon and IEM, ok; Terran seems fine overall.
a premier shouldnt be the size of the prize pool should be teh quailtie of the players
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
To emphasize your point: May as starting point of Serral's dominance is a bold assumption since he only proved his capability of winning vs toughest competition in august. Also, since he wasn't playing Maru (nobody's fault) he wasn't solely dominant for quite some time with Maru dominating GSLs before and after GSL vs The World.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
To emphasize your point: May as starting point of Serral's dominance is a bold assumption since he only proved his capability of winning vs toughest competition in august. Also, since he wasn't playing Maru (nobody's fault) he wasn't solely dominant for quite some time with Maru dominating GSLs before and after GSL vs The World.
I had edited already as it was a wrong statement: Serral started dominating WCS in January and globally in August. As for Maru, his Code S domination could have not ended yet, but if we look at the global scene he was dethroned after GSL vs the World.
On March 15 2019 04:30 Solar424 wrote: Scarlett was the only player who managed to consistently make Serral look mortal last year, should be a fun match.
On March 15 2019 04:30 Solar424 wrote: Scarlett was the only player who managed to consistently make Serral look mortal last year, should be a fun match.
Exactly, can we root for both o them?
no sorry you have to pick a side there is no middle ground here this is TL
I really hope Innovation doesn't TvT Maru out and then lose to Serral. That would be the worst possible ending to this tournament. I feel like Innovation vs Serral is 50-50 while Maru would be favored. I don't believe Serral has ever been favored over either TY or Maru and he has gotten pretty lucky with brackets. His ZvT has always looked weak relative to his other match-ups. He almost lost to Taeja.
On March 15 2019 04:40 JJH777 wrote: I really hope Innovation doesn't TvT Maru out and then lose to Serral. That would be the worst possible ending to this tournament. I feel like Innovation vs Serral is 50-50 while Maru would be favored. I don't believe Serral has ever been favored over either TY or Maru and he has gotten pretty lucky with brackets. His ZvT has always looked weak relative to his other match-ups. He almost lost to Taeja.
That happened in a tournament where all the Zerg consistently lost to Terran, except for Serral. TY's TvZ never looked incredibly deadly last year; as for Maru, Serral was at least capable of going toe to toe against him at GSL vs the World, I think an official extended series would have been a true clash of titans. Not to mention Serral's BlizzCon form, that I believe(no arguments based on facts for or against this can be made, only opinions) would have proven too much for anyone.
The ending you are imagining is a very nice one, if you ask me
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
I think Serral looked stronger than Maru last year (he had higher winrate against Koreans) but Maru had the better tournament run. Serral's tournament run in 2018 is honestly comparable to Rogue's in late 2017-early 2018 (4 WCS + Blizzcon + GSL vs the World and some semifinals is around as impressive as winning IEM Shanghai, Super Tournamnent, IEM WC and Blizzcon). I bring this up since I think most people would agree Maru's run was more impressive than Rogue's (no one has ever even gotten close to winning 3 GSls in a row besides Nestea). Even though Maru's winrates weren't amazing in the process, I think he has the most impressive run in SC2 history.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
I think Serral looked stronger than Maru last year (he had higher winrate against Koreans) but Maru had the better tournament run. Serral's tournament run in 2018 is honestly comparable to Rogue's in late 2017-early 2018 (4 WCS + Blizzcon + GSL vs the World and some semifinals is around as impressive as winning IEM Shanghai, Super Tournamnent, IEM WC and Blizzcon). I bring this up since I think most people would agree Maru's run was more impressive than Rogue's (no one has ever even gotten close to winning 3 GSls in a row besides Nestea). Even though Maru's winrates weren't amazing in the process, I think he has the most impressive run in SC2 history.
Serral played less Koreans, so he couldn't fuck up his winrate. I don't wanna downplay hium, he's very good, but the more you play, the more chance to lose against them.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
To be fair Gumiho was better than INno in 2018, he did better in all three GSL seasons as well as Katowice, and almost made it to blizzcon (got the 9th spot in korea standings)
In season 2 (around the time of GSL vs The World) I'd say ByuN was better than INno as well. He looked really sharp that season (beating Stats 4-1 for example).
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
What were you watching in 2018? Because Innovation was terrible that year. Maru, Ty > Gumiho and at some point Byun >> Innovation. He was really bad at 2018. Just check the results and rewatch some vods.
To be honest I dont think serral ever looked great in ZvT. Almost lost to both innovation, who really wasnt in shape, and taeja at homestory cup and lost to innovation and almost to gumiho at IEM where terrans were otherwise performing atrociously.
On March 15 2019 06:37 Jerom wrote: To be honest I dont think serral ever looked great in ZvT. Almost lost to both innovation, who really wasnt in shape, and taeja at homestory cup and lost to innovation and almost to gumiho at IEM where terrans were otherwise performing atrociously.
Serral looked very impressive in ZvT at GSL vs the World.
Innovation was in shape at HSC, unlike most of 2018, and Terran dominated that tournament: I want to remind you that soO and Rogue didn't even make it to the playoffs.
At IEM Serral dropped one map to Gumiho but didn't really come close to lose the series; Terran were eliminated en masse but they didn't exactly perform terribly, especially in TvZ: TY beat soO, Maru beat Dark, Gumiho beat Rogue, UThermal beat Scarlett, Inno beat Serral.
Thus said, ZvT is historically Serral's worst matchup, not even taking into account almost every foreigner is relatively struggling against T due to the lack of world class Terran in WCS.
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
I think Serral looked stronger than Maru last year (he had higher winrate against Koreans) but Maru had the better tournament run. Serral's tournament run in 2018 is honestly comparable to Rogue's in late 2017-early 2018 (4 WCS + Blizzcon + GSL vs the World and some semifinals is around as impressive as winning IEM Shanghai, Super Tournamnent, IEM WC and Blizzcon). I bring this up since I think most people would agree Maru's run was more impressive than Rogue's (no one has ever even gotten close to winning 3 GSls in a row besides Nestea). Even though Maru's winrates weren't amazing in the process, I think he has the most impressive run in SC2 history.
You are not considering HSC; while not classified as Premier it was a notable tournament, the icing on Serral's cake.
Rogue's run took place across two different seasons; also, he didn't do well at his own regional competition(Code S), unlike Serral. I won't stop repeating that winning four separate tournaments is hard, and that WCS was a proper Premier in 2018 despite being still obviously easier than GSL.
I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
Innovation didn't make the ro8 in any GSL last year. That's not very impressive. GuMiho made it twice.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
EDIT: What does "is it though" even mean? It makes no sense reading over my initial post.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
But there too, the question is: Is Terran OP, or is Flash OP?
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
But there too, the question is: Is Terran OP, or is Flash OP?
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
But there too, the question is: Is Terran OP, or is Flash OP?
There's no question. Flash plays Terran, and if Flash is OP then Terran is OP. Others need to "get good", otherwise we are balancing based on lower level players. If "getting good" isn't an option then Terran is indeed OP in BW. The same logic applies here in SC2.
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
But there too, the question is: Is Terran OP, or is Flash OP?
There's no question. Flash plays Terran, and if Flash is OP then Terran is OP. Others need to "get good", otherwise we are balancing based on lower level players. If "getting good" isn't an option then Terran is indeed OP in BW. The same logic applies here in SC2.
It wasnt even just flash either. all the bonjwas but one were terran
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
At the time of GSL vs The World Gumiho clearly belonged int the top 3 terrans instead of Inno. Gumi made it to Ro8 of CodeS before and after GSL vs The World while Inno did not
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
To emphasize your point: May as starting point of Serral's dominance is a bold assumption since he only proved his capability of winning vs toughest competition in august. Also, since he wasn't playing Maru (nobody's fault) he wasn't solely dominant for quite some time with Maru dominating GSLs before and after GSL vs The World.
I had edited already as it was a wrong statement: Serral started dominating WCS in January and globally in August. As for Maru, his Code S domination could have not ended yet, but if we look at the global scene he was dethroned after GSL vs the World.
Well, I still don't think that Maru can be called dethroned internationally because of losing one match and going on to win GSL afterwards. You also didn't want to call Serral dethroned after losing to Inno and soO at IEM and I'd have supported your case if he hadn't lost vs Neeb in group stage. As the case for Serral being #1 after IEM is way shakier than calling Maru still globally dominant after his 3rd GSL win, I hardly can grasp your logic here.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
You're correct. This is why I'll keep on the discussion Also because I think that the case isn't nearly as settled as many think due to the TL 2018 awards, so it is my purpose to not let this impression stabilize ^^
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Hey, I never balance whined. The weird thing is: many are discussing Maru vs Serral as if this was a continuation for the competition of the title "best player in the world". But it's not. Maru lost to sOs in GSL Super Tournament and Blizzcon and Serral lost to Inno and soO at IEM and now vs Neeb in group stage. They perhaps can become the best again and winning WESG would be an important but not sufficient step to surely claim that title again. So most of the discussion is wether Serral or Maru was the greatest of 2018. Also, as others said: Maru, or Flash in BW are exceptions. Players that are ahead of many others. It can be misleading to judge balance by looking at the very best players. If one does this then mizenhower's famous patchzerg allegation becomes the default claim for any champion of any big tournament which would be just dumb.
The stars aligned for gumiho that year and he won a championship, much like soo did this year. but he reverted back to the mean. gumiho didn't qualify for super tournament 2 after losing to ??? i don't remember but it wasn't a top tier player
gumiho, byun, and innovation didn't qualify for super tournament 2 , and none of them made it to blizzcon either. so between those 3, inno has won more championships, he might have performed under his true ability that year, but he's still innovation. how is he not in the top 3 terran, and gumiho or byun be above him? an argument can be made in tvt that gumiho or even alive can beat innovation from time to time, but as a whole innovation is still stronger.
and serral beat innovation. actually, looking at the brackets (EDIT: for blizzcon) again, serral went 4-0 in his group, and TY was in his group, and iirc he played TY. TY was #2 at the time, ahead of innovation. serral already proved himself against inno and TY. you can argue inno wasn't top 3 terran at that time, but TY was definitely #2, and serral won. soooooo
On March 15 2019 13:38 fishjie wrote: The stars aligned for gumiho that year and he won a championship, much like soo did this year. but he reverted back to the mean. gumiho didn't qualify for super tournament 2 after losing to ??? i don't remember but it wasn't a top tier player
gumiho, byun, and innovation didn't qualify for super tournament 2 , and none of them made it to blizzcon either. so between those 3, inno has won more championships, he might have performed under his true ability that year, but he's still innovation. how is he not in the top 3 terran, and gumiho or byun be above him? an argument can be made in tvt that gumiho or even alive can beat innovation from time to time, but as a whole innovation is still stronger.
and serral beat innovation. actually, looking at the brackets again, serral went 4-0 in his group, and TY was in his group, and iirc he played TY. TY was #2 at the time, ahead of innovation. serral already proved himself against inno and TY. you can argue inno wasn't top 3 terran at that time, but TY was definitely #2, and serral won. soooooo
For what tournament was Serral in a group with TY? If you're talking about blizzcon that is not correct. Nor did they play at IEM or GSL vs the World. TY also wasn't at the homestory cup Serral won. I think you're confused.
On March 15 2019 13:38 fishjie wrote: The stars aligned for gumiho that year and he won a championship, much like soo did this year. but he reverted back to the mean. gumiho didn't qualify for super tournament 2 after losing to ??? i don't remember but it wasn't a top tier player
gumiho, byun, and innovation didn't qualify for super tournament 2 , and none of them made it to blizzcon either. so between those 3, inno has won more championships, he might have performed under his true ability that year, but he's still innovation. how is he not in the top 3 terran, and gumiho or byun be above him? an argument can be made in tvt that gumiho or even alive can beat innovation from time to time, but as a whole innovation is still stronger.
and serral beat innovation. actually, looking at the brackets again, serral went 4-0 in his group, and TY was in his group, and iirc he played TY. TY was #2 at the time, ahead of innovation. serral already proved himself against inno and TY. you can argue inno wasn't top 3 terran at that time, but TY was definitely #2, and serral won. soooooo
For what tournament was Serral in a group with TY? If you're talking about blizzcon that is not correct. Nor did they play at IEM or GSL vs the World. TY also wasn't at the homestory cup Serral won. I think you're confused.
On March 15 2019 13:38 fishjie wrote: The stars aligned for gumiho that year and he won a championship, much like soo did this year. but he reverted back to the mean. gumiho didn't qualify for super tournament 2 after losing to ??? i don't remember but it wasn't a top tier player
gumiho, byun, and innovation didn't qualify for super tournament 2 , and none of them made it to blizzcon either. so between those 3, inno has won more championships, he might have performed under his true ability that year, but he's still innovation. how is he not in the top 3 terran, and gumiho or byun be above him? an argument can be made in tvt that gumiho or even alive can beat innovation from time to time, but as a whole innovation is still stronger.
and serral beat innovation. actually, looking at the brackets again, serral went 4-0 in his group, and TY was in his group, and iirc he played TY. TY was #2 at the time, ahead of innovation. serral already proved himself against inno and TY. you can argue inno wasn't top 3 terran at that time, but TY was definitely #2, and serral won. soooooo
For what tournament was Serral in a group with TY? If you're talking about blizzcon that is not correct. Nor did they play at IEM or GSL vs the World. TY also wasn't at the homestory cup Serral won. I think you're confused.
Err he wasn't though. Look at the groups again. sOs and Zest were in his group. I'm pretty sure TY and Serral have never played a tournament match against each other.
Best case scenario: Scarlett beats Maru in the finals, Serral beats Inno for third place, and the Serral/Maru fan boys continue to argue forever about who's better.
On March 15 2019 14:52 Kitai wrote: Best case scenario: Scarlett beats Maru in the finals, Serral beats Inno for third place, and the Serral/Maru fan boys continue to argue forever about who's better.
I’m going to hop in on this hype train, imo this is what I’m cheering for because of my favorite players and the hilarious community reaction
On March 15 2019 14:52 Kitai wrote: Best case scenario: Scarlett beats Maru in the finals, Serral beats Inno for third place, and the Serral/Maru fan boys continue to argue forever about who's better.
Please god no.
I can't take anymore. WE NEED ANSWERS. Next opportunity won't be until GSL vs The World again...
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
It's the opinion of many(mine and TL writers' too, most likely of the majority of the people on this site according to the polls) that after weighting all the respective accomplishments, Serral had the best year; you are forgetting both GSL vs the World and HSC, how to rate WCS compared to Code S is the key and it's hard to agree on that. Serral's advantage is slight in any of case, Maru's year was definitely one of the best in sc2's history.
I think Serral looked stronger than Maru last year (he had higher winrate against Koreans) but Maru had the better tournament run. Serral's tournament run in 2018 is honestly comparable to Rogue's in late 2017-early 2018 (4 WCS + Blizzcon + GSL vs the World and some semifinals is around as impressive as winning IEM Shanghai, Super Tournamnent, IEM WC and Blizzcon). I bring this up since I think most people would agree Maru's run was more impressive than Rogue's (no one has ever even gotten close to winning 3 GSls in a row besides Nestea). Even though Maru's winrates weren't amazing in the process, I think he has the most impressive run in SC2 history.
You are not considering HSC; while not classified as Premier it was a notable tournament, the icing on Serral's cake.
Rogue's run took place across two different seasons; also, he didn't do well at his own regional competition(Code S), unlike Serral. I won't stop repeating that winning four separate tournaments is hard, and that WCS was a proper Premier in 2018 despite being still obviously easier than GSL.
To me, Serral's run is better than Rogue's.
Yeah, because Code S and WCS is so much comparable ><
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
That's true, but Inno couldn't be considered a top 3 Terran at the time considering his results.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
it would still be 25% because the possible finals are:
Scarlett vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Serral vs Inno Serral vs Maru 25% for Serral vs Maru
The Corresponding 3rd place matches would then be: Serral vs Maru Serral vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Scarlett vs Inno again 25% for Serral vs Maru
so Serral vs Maru is possible in 2 of out 8 matches, therefore, if I did my math correctly, is 25% for Serral vs Maru
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
yeah but Serral was also almost always playing vs Koreans in GSL vs the World
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
it would still be 25% because the possible finals are:
Scarlett vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Serral vs Inno Serral vs Maru 25% for Serral vs Maru
The Corresponding 3rd place matches would then be: Serral vs Maru Serral vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Scarlett vs Inno again 25% for Serral vs Maru
so Serral vs Maru is possible in 2 of out 8 matches, therefore, if I did my math correctly, is 25% for Serral vs Maru
The maths are really simple:
Serral w - Maru w : 1/4 good (1/4 because 1/2 * 1/2, good because Maru and Serral meet) Serral w - Maru l : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru w : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru l : 1/4 good
1/4+1/4 = 1/2
Basically your error comes from the fact that there are 4 possibilities not 8
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
exactly. serral beat inno multiple times, and i think at HSC as well?
and LOL at anyone saying inno wasn't a top 3 terran at the time. Maru, TY, and innovation are top 3. who else belongs there? Gumiho? Alive (LOL). cmon now
At the time of GSL vs The World Gumiho clearly belonged int the top 3 terrans instead of Inno. Gumi made it to Ro8 of CodeS before and after GSL vs The World while Inno did not
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
He beat Inno at GSL vs the World 3-0.
He also lost to Maru 0-3 at Wesg which everyone seems to convienantly forget.
Nobody forgets. Maru was the best when it happened while Serral wasn't at his best yet, it's easy; everything I have been discussing of takes into consideration that Serral became a player capable of beating top koreans in Premier tournament finals at a certain point between April and August and he started dominating after GSL vs the World.
Ok but the assertion that was made was that Serral was hands down the best player of 2018..not May to December. When u line up achievements on both sides to me it still seems that has to be Maru and by a good margin. Not ignoring 4 wcs not ignoring blizzcon..3 gsls is still more difficult forget about wesg and even the 3 to 1 head to head mapscore.
To emphasize your point: May as starting point of Serral's dominance is a bold assumption since he only proved his capability of winning vs toughest competition in august. Also, since he wasn't playing Maru (nobody's fault) he wasn't solely dominant for quite some time with Maru dominating GSLs before and after GSL vs The World.
I had edited already as it was a wrong statement: Serral started dominating WCS in January and globally in August. As for Maru, his Code S domination could have not ended yet, but if we look at the global scene he was dethroned after GSL vs the World.
Well, I still don't think that Maru can be called dethroned internationally because of losing one match and going on to win GSL afterwards. You also didn't want to call Serral dethroned after losing to Inno and soO at IEM and I'd have supported your case if he hadn't lost vs Neeb in group stage. As the case for Serral being #1 after IEM is way shakier than calling Maru still globally dominant after his 3rd GSL win, I hardly can grasp your logic here.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
You're correct. This is why I'll keep on the discussion Also because I think that the case isn't nearly as settled as many think due to the TL 2018 awards, so it is my purpose to not let this impression stabilize ^^
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Hey, I never balance whined. The weird thing is: many are discussing Maru vs Serral as if this was a continuation for the competition of the title "best player in the world". But it's not. Maru lost to sOs in GSL Super Tournament and Blizzcon and Serral lost to Inno and soO at IEM and now vs Neeb in group stage. They perhaps can become the best again and winning WESG would be an important but not sufficient step to surely claim that title again. So most of the discussion is wether Serral or Maru was the greatest of 2018. Also, as others said: Maru, or Flash in BW are exceptions. Players that are ahead of many others. It can be misleading to judge balance by looking at the very best players. If one does this then mizenhower's famous patchzerg allegation becomes the default claim for any champion of any big tournament which would be just dumb.
I told you already and I'll say it again here.
Now, in 2019, I can say Maru was no the dominant force last year after GSL vs the World because it's history that he didn't win any international tournament after August; nobody thought he wasn't dominant anymore at the time as losing a single tournament might not be significant. However, Maru was eliminated at BlizzCon(and he didn't play at HSC), allowing me to retrospectively state GSL vs the World was indeed the turning point; Code S is a regional korean tournament, despite accepting foreigners in the qualifiers, as players are effectively forced to spend months in Korea in order to play their games, given the current schedule of the tournament.
If we could know that Serral wouldn't win tournaments for months after IEM, it would be right to say he's no more dominant now; we don't have foresight so we'll have to wait, our perspective is too narrow at the moment to judge appropriately.
On March 15 2019 00:39 fishjie wrote: maru vs serral will be sick. hope maru will win, cause otherwise the insufferable serral fans boys like dave will be popping off and demanding that the bullying of serral stop (see power rank thread). i'm also ok with scarlett winning that'd be awesome too, there are no insufferable scarlett fan boys
Noo, not really. Maru winning would result in Maru being canonized with every single Serral's accomplishment being diminished("you see? He only won because he dodged Maru, that foreigner scrub"); Inno winning is somehow better even if that would crown him GOAT in the eyes of his fans.
not really, serral already proved himself best player in 2018 period, and i hate serral fanboys with a passion. its pretty much not open for debate. GSL vs the world, and then at blizzcon - he murdered all the korean competition. what i'm annoyed with is the hyperbole. serrals stats are inflated by being protected from region lock. he'd still have been best in 2018, but have that kind of record if no region lock? nah.
No he didn't. He didn't beat a single top 3 Terran. He also didn't have a single series win while playing on the wrong side of an imbalanced match up.
This is exactly what I meant.
Let me inform you, Boggyb, that Serral didn't beat any top 3 Terran(a statement that could be contested as Gumiho being ahead of Innovation at the time HSC XVIII happened is a very dubious claim) because he did not face them; we are obviously speaking of what happened AFTER 4.30 BU, when Serral rose to prominence. Serral didn't actively dodge Terran, he just only got to play a bo1 against Maru at GSL vs the World, which he won.
Zest won his first GSL way back in 2014 by dodging all terrans too, the only game he played was vs Maru which he lost 1-2. Do you see other people diminishing his GSL win?
The difference is that Zest wasn't playing abroad and avoiding other Koreans. He was playing against Koreans all the time. While Serral is playing weekender here and there but actively dodges Koreans by playing in WCS. Which is fine by me, but then people will use this against his fans, which is what's happening.
yeah but Serral was also almost always playing vs Koreans in GSL vs the World
Yes, that's why I wrote Serral plays Koreans in tournaments here and there, but not consistently because he's not playing in Korea. His fans need to deal with this situation, it's absolutely a fine choice for Serral but there will be doubts. That's how it is. That's why Zest wasn't so questioned.
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
On March 15 2019 08:08 frazzle wrote: I feel like this obsession with Maru v Serral is getting nowhere, which is part of the fun I suppose.
If you are a Serral fanboy you have to admit that 4 GSLs in a row is amazing. Imagine getting through IEM Katowice 4 times in a row to win it, but with your opponents having a week or two to prepare for you. On the other hand, After WESG last year, Serral did win everything except Nation Wars and Maru had chances to face him but crumbled early. Serral's ZvT against Koreans is suspect a bit yes, but Innovation was on point in HSC and beat Rogue in Blizzcon. Serral didn't totally get a pass like Neeb did winning Kespa Cup.
It seems to me that Serral vs Maru comparisons feel like the old NCAA College football issues when you had unbeaten teams that were juggernauts but played weak schedules vs SEC teams who have a few losses and they never meet in the bowl games. Who was better? You never get to decide for sure.
I don't think we are going anywhere, in fact. Also, I don't think anyone said Maru's year wasn't amazing but he "only" won 3 consecutive Code S.
Great point. Honestly I feel like the "best player in the world" debate shouldn't even be happening right now. If Maru won Blizzcon, or advanced significantly further than Serral, then yes he would be the indisputable "best player in the world". However now I think there are two branches...Serral is the "best short term tournament player in the world" while Maru is the "best preparation tournament player in the world" and they both can be safely classified as "the two best players in the world."
Also, the people crying the loudest about Terran being underpowered are also the ones championing Maru as the best player in the world...cognitive dissonance.
Is it though? It seems logical to me..that if they think hes playing from a disadvantage it strengthens his claim? Care to elaborate? I'm anxious to learn what you think cognitive dissonance is.
Yes. In Brood War, Terran was so overpowered that the ASL had to engineer maps so that someone other than Flash could win. I don't think we're in that stage here in SC2.
EDIT: What does "is it though" even mean? It makes no sense reading over my initial post.
This was me poking fun at your attempt at snarkiness that spilled out instead as stupidity. You clearly dont understand the words you use and it is entertaining. Nice completely random reply about BW tho lol.
I am so sick of people saying Serral is “dodging” Koreans by playing in WCS. Last time I checked his region designation is Europe. OF COURSE HE IS PLAYING IN IT. It’s the league his country is assigned to. We may see him in a GSL down the line this year l, and I would love to see him try, but it is not something he is REQUIRED to do. I guarantee you that the Koreans would prefer he stayed out because if he does participate that’s a lot of WCS Korea points that won’t be going to their players.
The reason there are no foreigners in the first season (aside from Scarlett), was that Blizzard implemented a rule making them choose: GSL or Challenger and no one is wanting to give up their Circuit points for a chance at GSL glory (the rule has since been revoked).
What I’d like to see is any “Korea points” won by foreigners applied to their Circuit total instead. Scarlett made a Ro8 and missed out on BlizzCon last year because in the grand scheme it did nothing for her.
And do you think Afreeca doesn’t want Serral in their tournament? Their ratings go up whenever a foreigner does well. Serral himself has inferred that he doesn’t like the idea of taking slots provided for the Koreans (which is commendable), but I imagine you may get your wish in season 2 or 3 this year based on rumors circling through the community.
But to say Serral is “dodging” Koreans by playing in the Circuit which is designated for him instead - don’t make me laugh.
I think the problem is not people saying Serral is dodging koreans. It's fine depending on the timing of the people saying that.
For example, if incredibly biased viewers post things such as: "wow look at Serral invincibility streak, so long, best player of sc2 etcetc", it's perfectly fine to remind everyone that Serral's streak would probably have ended sooner was he playing in GSL.
Maybe he would have still kept winning in this setting but we can't know :o.
its not that serral is dodging koreans its that his stats were inflated by region lock. he was best player in 2018, but all his wcs wins don't really mean anything because there wasn't korean competition. reynor, scarlett, special and neeb are pretty good and can compete in GSL and there's no need for region locking, let's see how good serral really is
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
Yea I don't see how this can even be argued against...
On March 15 2019 19:20 MarianoSC2 wrote: Oh gosh for once and for all... No one cares about Serrals WCS wins. They have even less value then freakin Olimoleagues in terms of the quality of players you are facing. I think Serral looked stronger overall than Maru last year but in terms of achievments, they are non-comparable.
Serral notable achievments: GSL vs the World, Blizzcon Maru notable achievments: GSL x 3 !
This is very obvious. HSC is a chill tournament which was only ever used to promote Taeja as top 3 player of all time on this Site. And WCS? I mean for a foreigner its surely impressive to win 4x in a row, but in the Korean world, its nothing. Unless top Koreans start competing there, it has zero value and even 10 WCS cannot be compared to 1 GSL
This comment is so spot in revealing the average "korean elitist" view on WCS I'd almost call it a meme(thanks, Mariano): WCS is just a foreigner Olimoleague, every top korean would win it multiple times, HSC is pointless(I'm surprised you even gave some relevance to GSL vs the World, that's notoriously another holiday tournament).
This borderline offensive point of view could have been about right during the utter korean domination in HoTS, that's not the case anymore(not even involving Serral, do Neeb's KeSpa cup and top 4 at Code S tell you anything?).
Comparing WCS to korean tournaments IS precisely where we will never agree and that's why you think Maru's achievements are vastly superior.
No answers will be found in the finals Maru and Serral will play at WESG(either first or third place ones) other than their current shape: they are not at their apex and they are not as dominating as they were in 2018; it would be one exciting match but not as meaningful as it would have been if it happened last BlizzCon.
Call it what you will, its not a subjective view, its reality, undeniable truth. And no mater how hard you will try to deny it and justify your wrong point of view, it wont change anything.
GSL has all the top Korean competition. WCS has Serral, only player on that level, and then occasional glimpses of quality from other 2-3 players. And I emphasize occasional (Scarlett, Neeb, Special). Anyone who thinks that a universe exists in which winning a WCS and a GSL as an equal achievment is massively deluded and cant be taken seriously.
Its even worse that you Serral fanboys, even if someone admits that Serral looked better/stronger than anyone else (and was the most successful foreigner in history), but then points out the fact that in term of achievment its uncomparable, you guys cant even admit that. Its laughable really.
I never said WCS is as hard as Code S; still, it's incredibly silly to think it is incomparably worse. Foreigner's skill level has become much closer to that of the koreans in LoTV as confirmed by Neeb's ro4, Scarlett's ro8, Reynor's ro16 runs(in 2018 only).
Now, you are the one who's deluded, evidently, since you call "undeniable truth" that Maru's achievements cannot be compared to Serral's(I'd agree if you were saying they are hard to compare since they play in different circuits but you mean that Maru's are incredibly ahead of Serral's); it's such a pity that the majority of the people on this forum and Team Liquid writers both seem to think that's not the case(guess who won Player of the Year?).
You make "concessions" on Serral's skill while every competent Sc2 follower could see the level he attained last year; being able to compare Maru and Serral's achievements is not something you'd have to concede as well and that we dare to do this in spite of one glaring truth.
Divergent opinions are welcome, your attitude is indeed laughable; may I use your statements for my signature?
One thing I will say - not to derail the sick nearly solved debate - is that I think both Scarlett and Serral have a good chance to beat either Innovation or Maru based on what I watched on soO's stream last night - he was beating both Maru and Inno for like 4 hours back and forth with some random Protoss in between - I think I saw him drop one map between the 2 of them I think to Maru vs a proxy 2 rax reaper lol. Unless soO is just now super saiyan soO godmode now that the Kong is dead - I think whoever plays in the finals it's going to be a sick series.
On March 14 2019 22:36 Mike L wrote: that`s gotta be sick... will be funny if Scarlett manage to destroy the dream of many who waiting final Serral - Maru clash of the best players of 2018
If INno beats Maru we'll get that as third place match
So if each series was 50-50, we'd have 50% chances of seeing Serral vs Maru
You do realize that it would be 25% for the Maru vs Serral MU if the preceeding series are both 50% right? :D
You do realize that it would be 50% because Serral vs Maru can happen in either the finals or the third place match, right?
it would still be 25% because the possible finals are:
Scarlett vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Serral vs Inno Serral vs Maru 25% for Serral vs Maru
The Corresponding 3rd place matches would then be: Serral vs Maru Serral vs Inno Scarlett vs Maru Scarlett vs Inno again 25% for Serral vs Maru
so Serral vs Maru is possible in 2 of out 8 matches, therefore, if I did my math correctly, is 25% for Serral vs Maru
The maths are really simple:
Serral w - Maru w : 1/4 good (1/4 because 1/2 * 1/2, good because Maru and Serral meet) Serral w - Maru l : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru w : 1/4 bad Serral l - Maru l : 1/4 good
1/4+1/4 = 1/2
Basically your error comes from the fact that there are 4 possibilities not 8
This.
The sets of possible matches for third place and first place are complementary; if Serral wins then Scarlett must lose and vice versa. Thus your list of eight "possibilities" is actually only four real possibilities.
Serral vs Maru (means Scarlett vs Inno) Serral vs Inno (means Scarlett vs Maru) Scarlett vs Maru (means Serral vs Inno) Scarlett vs Inno (means Serral vs Maru)
You are double-counting the possible matches, so you got half the actual probability as your result.
I am as interested as the rest of you in seeing Maru vs Serral albeit it’s a few months later than the situation I wanted it to be in.
However, and, yes, I stopped before I said this... I can make a pretty decent case that INnoVation is in better shape than Maru is at the moment and he is more than capable of ruining everyone’s dream matchup for (how many times now?).
On the other side, I think, if I’m not mistaken, that Scarlett was the last non Korean to take down Serral in an offline match. (IEM PyeongChang). She certainly had her chance at Valencia as well so Serral advancing is not a gimme.
I’m hoping we finally get what we want, but I’m just as eager to avoid a Maru vs Scarlett match because I fear that would look ridiculously one sided - Scarlett herself has mentioned she is quite fearful of him, which, to be fair, is an intelligent response.
(Would’ve liked to see more from Neeb against him but I think after that Game 2 loss I think he mentally folded - and yes I plead 🇺🇸 😏).
In a side note, maybe we should just automatically make Year Zero map 7 based on recent performances on it? It seems to have the best games but is the quickest to exhaust the players. 🤔
On March 16 2019 05:37 StarcraftSquall wrote: I am as interested as the rest of you in seeing Maru vs Serral albeit it’s a few months later than the situation I wanted it to be in.
However, and, yes, I stopped before I said this... I can make a pretty decent case that INnoVation is in better shape than Maru is at the moment and he is more than capable of ruining everyone’s dream matchup for (how many times now?).
On the other side, I think, if I’m not mistaken, that Scarlett was the last non Korean to take down Serral in an offline match. (IEM PyeongChang). She certainly had her chance at Valencia as well so Serral advancing is not a gimme.
I’m hoping we finally get what we want, but I’m just as eager to avoid a Maru vs Scarlett match because I fear that would look ridiculously one sided - Scarlett herself has mentioned she is quite fearful of him, which, to be fair, is an intelligent response.
(Would’ve liked to see more from Neeb against him but I think after that Game 2 loss I think he mentally folded - and yes I plead 🇺🇸 😏).
In a side note, maybe we should just automatically make Year Zero map 7 based on recent performances on it? It seems to have the best games but is the quickest to exhaust the players. 🤔
I dont want to nitpick, but Im pretty sure neeb was the last non korean to defeat serral in an offline match, as he did so in the group stages of thie very tournament.
Ah yup you’re right. I’m just so used to Serral still being on his streak that I completely forgot about that (partially because no one got to SEE the match live - thanks WESG production).
Considering how big this tournament is you’d think they’d do a better job producing the thing. I mean, the casters are remote casting from Kiev. Since when is that a thing?
On March 16 2019 12:08 StarcraftSquall wrote: Ah yup you’re right. I’m just so used to Serral still being on his streak that I completely forgot about that (partially because no one got to SEE the match live - thanks WESG production).
Considering how big this tournament is you’d think they’d do a better job producing the thing. I mean, the casters are remote casting from Kiev. Since when is that a thing?
Yeah, that is really weird. Maybe it was easier to have them cast from Kiev than trying to get them VISAs in time? Based on how WESG has been going thus far, I wouldn't be surprised if the talent was hired too close to the tournament's start date to reliably get VISAs in time.
I'm more excited about this final 4 than any I've seen in a long time. I'd be happy to see any of these players win.
I think a huge Serral vs Innovation finals, with all the nucs and endgame the displayed in their series at IEM would probably bee the most epic possibility...
Though, if I could create the storyline, I'd like to see Scarlett just crush everyone and really take a big championship like she deserves. Showing the wide range of strategies like nydus and large macro games and early 1 base attacks. She's got this sort of ethereal greatness to her play, that I would just love to see fully actualized. I think she could do it if conditions are right.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/WESG/wesg734.jpg)
Serral faces off against ![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/wesg/wesgbracket2.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.thiakx.com/misc/Serral_Maru.jpg)
