EPT
It is obvious that the chinese player threw the game.
There is no way he could have lost to this diamond player.
I hope blizzard will do something about it.
Suspicious betting-odds changes at WESG 2018? - Page 21
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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." | ||
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Adnapsc2
47 Posts
It is obvious that the chinese player threw the game. There is no way he could have lost to this diamond player. I hope blizzard will do something about it. | ||
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Pilot912
20 Posts
I follow SC2 discussions in China and browse TL occasionally, but never felt the urge to register an account to join the conversation. But the ignorance and racism shown here made me feel that I need to provide some additional "circumstantial evidence" My argument is that it is very unlikely for MacSed to intentionally loose to Seventy91, considering: (1) how difficult it is for money flow-in and flow-out China, (2) such loss would be read by Chinese SC2 fans as an absolute joke and led to long-term online harassment, and (3) the game was playing on-site and broadcasted, and MacSed's dropping performance in recent games. Below are detailed explanations. (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China. A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do. Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this. So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this. (2) Of course, let's image someone did bother to go through all of the hurdles and to pay MacSed, then the question is, will he match-fix and LOOSE to an unknown Siberia player? It is hard to believe given the culture of SC2 esport in China. One notable feature about Chinese SC2 fans is that they tend to be very nationalistic (some of them are arguably as racist as Powerfoe and NinjaNight). For them, an established player loosing to a not well-regarded foreign player is simply unforgivable. The most representative case of such nationalistic tendency occurred to Toodming, around 2 years ago, iAsonu felt he hit his limit and could not win against Korean/Euro players, he posted his thought online. Then, echoing his argument, TooDming made a similar argument, and suggesting that "pro-players should not be bounded too much by nationalistic zeal" and "why should Chinese players cared so much about winning against Korean players". This immediately got backlash from the Chinese fan base, and TooDming got the humiliating nickname "何赢韩“ (why to win Koreans). Since then, TooDming has been cursed by a substantial number of Chinese SC2 fans (we are talking about thousands), and such online bullying lasted until today. So why did I mention TooDming's story. The point is, every Chinese player know that if he lost to an unknown foreign "chicken", he would be laughed at by Chinese SC2 fans FOREVER. Someone may argue that Chinese players involved in match-fix before, but if you think about the instances when foreign players involved. Most of the time, Chinese players cheated to "win", instead of "losing" a game. Go back to MacSed's perspective, how much you think is enough to make him accept being humiliated by thousands of fans? In fact, many SC2 fans on China's forum have already begun to make laugh at MacSed for "being regarded not as a Chicken" on TL. (3) This brings my third point: for people following SCBoy's streaming, MacSed had played with them for AutoChess and CS:Go for the last month, and earlier, he also thought to switch to be a streamer of Fortnite. His main income comes from streaming various games (not only SC2) and being part of the management team of the youth team sponsored by SCBoy. He is semi-retired. Most Chinese fans thought his entrance into WESG as "lucky", and he himself was perhaps wishing he can just finish WESG matches without losing face. So, if you are going to pay him to match-fix with Seventy91, considering that would put his real income at risk, and the granted round of humiliation by thousands of Chinese SC2 fans, the amount has to be substantial (of course, our poor Powerfoe think $300 is enough for someone to take such risk). But again, if it is substantial (thousands of $), it would trigger China's banking monitor system and I don't think MacSed is that stupid. To conclude, let's wait for the official investigation result. But again, what shocked me is how so many people jumped to conclusion so quickly, and just don't care about destroying MacSed's reputation. My proposal, if MacSed turned out to be innocent, these witch-hunters should make apology and compensation to MacSed, as well as being banned from TL for life. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: I was following the conversation here and it seems that the community members (Powerfoe, NinjaNight, etc.) rushed to a conclusion. What shocked me was how several members here were determined that this was a match-fix with only circumstantial evidence. I feel that I might add a counter-argument given my knowledge of SC2 in China. I follow SC2 discussions in China and browse TL occasionally, but never felt the urge to register an account to join the conversation. But the ignorance and racism shown here made me feel that I need to provide some additional "circumstantial evidence" My argument is that it is very unlikely for MacSed to intentionally loose to Seventy91, considering: (1) how difficult it is for money flow-in and flow-out China, (2) such loss would be read by Chinese SC2 fans as an absolute joke and led to long-term online harassment, and (3) the game was playing on-site and broadcasted, and MacSed's dropping performance in recent games. Below are detailed explanations. (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China. A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do. Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this. So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this. (2) Of course, let's image someone did bother to go through all of the hurdles and to pay MacSed, then the question is, will he match-fix and LOOSE to an unknown Siberia player? It is hard to believe given the culture of SC2 esport in China. One notable feature about Chinese SC2 fans is that they tend to be very nationalistic (some of them are arguably as racist as Powerfoe and NinjaNight). For them, an established player loosing to a not well-regarded foreign player is simply unforgivable. The most representative case of such nationalistic tendency occurred to Toodming, around 2 years ago, iAsonu felt he hit his limit and could not win against Korean/Euro players, he posted his thought online. Then, echoing his argument, TooDming made a similar argument, and suggesting that "pro-players should not be bounded too much by nationalistic zeal" and "why should Chinese players cared so much about winning against Korean players". This immediately got backlash from the Chinese fan base, and TooDming got the humiliating nickname "何赢韩“ (why to win Koreans). Since then, TooDming has been cursed by a substantial number of Chinese SC2 fans (we are talking about thousands), and such online bullying lasted until today. So why did I mention TooDming's story. The point is, every Chinese player know that if he lost to an unknown foreign "chicken", he would be laughed at by Chinese SC2 fans FOREVER. Someone may argue that Chinese players involved in match-fix before, but if you think about the instances when foreign players involved. Most of the time, Chinese players cheated to "win", instead of "losing" a game. Go back to MacSed's perspective, how much you think is enough to make him accept being humiliated by thousands of fans? In fact, many SC2 fans on China's forum have already begun to make laugh at MacSed for "being regarded not as a Chicken" on TL. (3) This brings my third point: for people following SCBoy's streaming, MacSed had played with them for AutoChess and CS:Go for the last month, and earlier, he also thought to switch to be a streamer of Fortnite. His main income comes from streaming various games (not only SC2) and being part of the management team of the youth team sponsored by SCBoy. He is semi-retired. Most Chinese fans thought his entrance into WESG as "lucky", and he himself was perhaps wishing he can just finish WESG matches without losing face. So, if you are going to pay him to match-fix with Seventy91, considering that would put his real income at risk, and the granted round of humiliation by thousands of Chinese SC2 fans, the amount has to be substantial (of course, our poor Powerfoe think $300 is enough for someone to take such risk). But again, if it is substantial (thousands of $), it would trigger China's banking monitor system and I don't think MacSed is that stupid. To conclude, let's wait for the official investigation result. But again, what shocked me is how so many people jumped to conclusion so quickly, and just don't care about destroying MacSed's reputation. My proposal, if MacSed turned out to be innocent, these witch-hunters should make apology and compensation to MacSed, as well as being banned from TL for life. lol? 1 post coming in here demanding people be banned for life for commenting on a pretty obviously(though not certainly) fixed game. Whats shocking is you can defend someone who looks like they've never touched SC2, read the strategy guide in the 2nd game, then play a perfect game the one before and the one after. like seriously? | ||
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RealityTheGreat
China564 Posts
On March 15 2019 03:09 Shuffleblade wrote: Beastyqt watched the game in question and reacted to it, its a really funny watch if anyone is interested. Really funny | ||
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JasonOfAeson
33 Posts
It seems unlikely that MacSed is too smart to accidentally make the mistakes he made, but also so dumb that he would intentionally make them, when trying to pull off a match fix. Losing the two probes to a zealot was likely enough to throw the game. The cannon wall was certainly game over, and even if he had killed the initial two zealots with the probes, he would still lose. So MacSed is smart enough to be a world class SC2 player, but so stupid that he can't lose in a less awkward fashion. I think you're forgetting that there becomes a point where (if MacSed isn't cheating) he knows he has lost. His position is unrecoverable before at least half of the mistakes people are pointing out. The betting line movement is far less significant if the bet attracted very little attention to begin with. And had MacSed won 2-0 you never would've heard of this. The primary motivator for the investigation is that a man gambled and lost. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 15 2019 11:57 pvsnp wrote: You do understand why laws and criminal justice systems exist right? Why convictions aren't decided by popular vote or sentences by vigilantism? Why the court of public opinion holds no legal authority? Did you watch how carefully Artosis, Incontrol, Feardragon, and Tempo treated this subject on the Pylon Show? "Ignorant" and "naive?" The irony is overwhelming. I personally agree, by the way, that what we've seen so far from Macsed looks like matchfixing. I understand you are very passionate about the justice system but in this case the ones that are likely to make a statement on this is not the actualy police but the WESG organization and thats fine. Great that you bring the pylon show into the discussion, and thanks for an easy link to follow too for those that hasn't seen it. Incontrol says a lot of things that I agree with and of course the bigger community figures takes greater care in how they position themselves in this situation than me for example. If I was on the pylon show as a known community figure I would not say the things I have posted in this thread. Here we discuss as smaller parts of a community, to think that everyone should tread with the same caution as community figures is unreasonable in my opinion. I think that it is obvious and clear cut that Macsed is matchfixing and I think that if a player can matchfix this blattantly and get away with then starcraft 2 is in trouble. Just like what happened with the kespa matfixing scandal in sc2 these things easily escalate, if memory servers it was Yoda that got convinced to matcfix once and then continually threatened to keep doing it because otherwise the criminals would release evidence of his first matchfix. The criminals gets to earn a lot of money and if both the criminals and players consider the crime safe and unprovable it will only get more prevalent. Also in regards to the pylon show, as I've posted before matchfixing does greater damage to the sport when it is known than if it is unknown. If the kespa controversy never got brought into light and no one got prosecuted maybe Kespa and proleague would still be with us today. These scandals hurt the sport and Artosis in particular has his entire income tied to the contiuation of starcraft 2 professional league contiuned existence. He has a personal interest in subduing these bad rumors and it would be safer for him if Macsed was freed no matter if he was actually guilty or not. Artosis himself said he wasn't comfortable taking about this and I understand why, he has a conflict of interest between his vested interesting starcraft 2 continued growth and succes and his role on the pylon show as a community figure speaking his mind. I really love Artosis, I mean nothing bad towards him I just think its important to consider when people whos income in tied to starcraft 2 that might also effect what they tell the community. Edit: On March 15 2019 17:57 JasonOfAeson wrote: I feel like there's a bit of a logical disconnect. It seems unlikely that MacSed is too smart to accidentally make the mistakes he made, but also so dumb that he would intentionally make them, when trying to pull off a match fix. Losing the two probes to a zealot was likely enough to throw the game. The cannon wall was certainly game over, and even if he had killed the initial two zealots with the probes, he would still lose. So MacSed is smart enough to be a world class SC2 player, but so stupid that he can't lose in a less awkward fashion. I think you're forgetting that there becomes a point where (if MacSed isn't cheating) he knows he has lost. His position is unrecoverable before at least half of the mistakes people are pointing out. The betting line movement is far less significant if the bet attracted very little attention to begin with. And had MacSed won 2-0 you never would've heard of this. The primary motivator for the investigation is that a man gambled and lost. You are right if Macsed was playing a player on the GM level, actually if I was Macsed I would be worried if I could even throw the game. The player is diamond Macsed should eaily be able to win the game even if both his cannon rushing probes die. | ||
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JasonOfAeson
33 Posts
On March 15 2019 17:11 arb wrote: lol? 1 post coming in here demanding people be banned for life for commenting on a pretty obviously(though not certainly) fixed game. Whats shocking is you can defend someone who looks like they've never touched SC2, read the strategy guide in the 2nd game, then play a perfect game the one before and the one after. like seriously? Cause you've never played, or seen anyone else play, drastically below their skill ceiling? Also he explains why he only has one post and why he doesn't post on her usually, so why bother pointing it out? "Pretty obviously" vs. "Not certainly" -- which is it, pal. Is it obvious or uncertain? You literally ignored nine tenths of the man's post, that gave some context into MacSed's situation. | ||
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Pilot912
20 Posts
On March 15 2019 17:11 arb wrote: lol? 1 post coming in here demanding people be banned for life for commenting on a pretty obviously(though not certainly) fixed game. Whats shocking is you can defend someone who looks like they've never touched SC2, read the strategy guide in the 2nd game, then play a perfect game the one before and the one after. like seriously? If someone with only 1 post cannot made demand for "banning someone from TL for life". Then why a bunch of dudes with only the VOD to make the conclusion that someone is "match-fix" and destroying a semi-retired player's reputation, and call him to be banned for life? The accusations in the thread are beyond decent discussions, and basically harsh blames. You may argue that the game is weird and as far as we know, it is investigated. My point, again, is that some many people here rush to the conclusion too quickly, which at least shows arrogance. Again, my main argument is, let's wait for the result from the formal investigation. But my sense told me that MacSed would be too stupid to intentionally lose to an unknown foreign player, given the humiliation and online harassment he knew would come with such consequence. One of the "punishment" that Chinese SC2 fans like to make laugh on someone who lose to unknown foreign players (it could be MacSed versus Seventy91, or Cloudy versus unknown players from Southeast Asia) is to demand them do "drag queen" dance, consider that... I simply don't believe that MacSed would bother to do match-fix for hundreds of dollars... Also, Larger amount of transition would be caught by the bank monitoring system too... | ||
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bewd85
7 Posts
then look at 3rd game and just WOW.....we all will say "who is this guy? nice micro and nice defend. totally different person compare game 2 | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 15 2019 12:19 NinjaNight wrote: That's the mindset that will get us nowhere toward solving the matchfixing problem. Do you know the reason Life was found guilty? It was only because the Korean police launched a huge investigation and eventually finally found some answers that allowed them to bust him. As I recall it took quite a while. There will be no such thing here so I'm sure they will find nothing and proclaim his innocence despite being guilty. They don't have the power or the persistence that the Korean police possessed, what are they going to do? The matchfixers can just run free. On top of that it's a Chinese tournament so I wouldn't even trust them to be willing to claim his guilt even if they were aware of it. They aren't like the Koreans who would likely be quick to shun matchfixers. It's time to move beyond these silly ways and go with something that is actually effective. DUDE, stop fucking ignore the referee from WESG. It was posted here Chinese officials started the investigation. As far as I know it should be illegal in CHina to match fix and thus if there's a suspicion the investigation will start. Mob justice rarely works, most of the time they kill innocent. That's why we have officials with the autority to do more than just look at a stream and say, it's suspicious as hell, let's burn the witch. They can get the background information you can't. Also this is quite offensive towards China. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: It doesn't matter how unlikely it is for Macsed to intentionally lose to Seventy91, if he has so obviously chosen to do so. From an SC2 perspective Macsed chose to lose as obviously as if he decided to just probe rush with no micro. ... My argument is that it is very unlikely for MacSed to intentionally loose to Seventy91, considering: (1) how difficult it is for money flow-in and flow-out China, (2) such loss would be read by Chinese SC2 fans as an absolute joke and led to long-term online harassment, and (3) the game was playing on-site and broadcasted, and MacSed's dropping performance in recent games. Below are detailed explanations.... | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
If it was a few large bets, it is consistent with match fixing (although not definite proof). If it's many small bets by various accounts, then it is unlikely to be match fixing. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
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Majick
416 Posts
On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: (1) one thing unknown to many people living in the West is how closely the Chinese government is monitoring cash transitions involving a foreign account. China has been really tight to censorship its citizens, to avoid capital escaping China. A good example of how this influence esports is “Master's Coliseum” organized by Xiaose and F91. When Zest won 2018 Master's Coliseum, it took Xiaose and F91 more than 6 months to sent Zest the full cash prize, since a lump sum payment had to go through a very complicated application to China's Bank system and was effectively impossible to do. Similarly, if a noticeable amount (more than $300) was sent from a foreign account to a Chinese domestic account, it would be flagged by the Chinese bank system. For any Chinese who ever travel oversea, they know this. So the issue is, if we assume someone from an oversea website paid MacSed, then it is almost impossible to leave no trace, and I don't believe MacSed would be so stupid to ignore this. Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. | ||
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Kaolla
China2999 Posts
On March 15 2019 22:27 Majick wrote: Regarding your first argument, I quickly checked and Pinnacle allows Bitcoin deposits and withdrawals, so theoretically he could make so that nothing goes through a Chinese bank and he probably wouldn't need anybody's help with that. Just saying. It's also not nearly as hard as he makes it seem. I've received US dollar payments quite a few times here in China (on a Chinese bank account) and I've never had any issues with them or it has never taken me more than a few minutes to convert the foreign currency to Chinese currency. I think anyone who has actually seen the game knows this doesn't matter anyway as it's obvious the game was fixed. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: One notable feature about Chinese SC2 fans is that they tend to be very nationalistic (some of them are arguably as racist as Powerfoe and NinjaNight). For them, an established player loosing to a not well-regarded foreign player is simply unforgivable. Hahaha! I can't take you seriously after this. Talk about "jumping to conclusions." I'm not racist at all. I'd be defending Macsed if I didn't feel the evidence was so overwhelmingly against him that there's little chance he didn't matchfix. On the contrary I hope the Chinese scene does well and stays honest. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On March 15 2019 19:38 deacon.frost wrote: DUDE, stop fucking ignore the referee from WESG. It was posted here Chinese officials started the investigation. As far as I know it should be illegal in CHina to match fix and thus if there's a suspicion the investigation will start. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of investigating this further before making a final decision. There's no reason why we shouldn't look even deeper and make sure we're not missing something. I was just attempting to make it as clear as I can using my huge amount of SC2 experience how incredibly suspicious these events are. I think I've said enough now. | ||
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PaulB1337
15 Posts
On March 15 2019 16:50 Pilot912 wrote: One notable feature about Chinese SC2 fans is that they tend to be very nationalistic (some of them are arguably as racist as Powerfoe and NinjaNight). For them, an established player loosing to a not well-regarded foreign player is simply unforgivable. What a madness you wrote there, Seventy91 is can't be even assumed as a player, he is just casual SC2 user, who is playing 1-5 games in a month , with 0-30 games played in a whole season. "not well-regarded" rofl | ||
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DSh1
292 Posts
Though his statement doesn't help his case. | ||
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