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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:
Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了"
My translation:
"The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." |
On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? 
This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here.
The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet.
Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread.
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On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread.
Agreed in all respects.
The real meat of this is what happened with the betting line, and that's what warrants investigation. A statement from the player is nice to have on record, but it's pretty weak evidence for anything. Just like the replay of the game, which certain people are so fixated on.
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On March 14 2019 12:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread. Agreed in all respects.
I don't understand why you'll go for that and not the equally suspicious in game evidence but whatever I'm glad you feel the same way about that.
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It's hilarious if Rail can actually coach some 4k MMR player to win a PvP against MacSed.
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On March 14 2019 12:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
It's hilarious if Rail can actually coach some 4k MMR player to win a PvP against MacSed.
Let alone coaching him to do so just by telling him to proxy a couple gates and leave 1 at home. LMAO
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On March 14 2019 12:44 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 12:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread. Agreed in all respects. I don't understand why you'll go for that and not the equally suspicious in game evidence but whatever I'm glad you feel the same way about that.
I added more detail after you replied.
If somebody accused Macsed of matchfixing based solely on his in-game actions and without any abnormal betting line, they'd be laughed out of here. The reason this is suspicious is because of the betting line–Macsed's in-game actions make little difference one way or another, and I take exception to the way people like you are jumping on it as though it were proof of anything.
As I said earlier, given what I've seen so far, I personally believe that Macsed was probably involved in matchfixing. Or, if not matchfixing, suspicious shenanigans of some sort. But it's a big leap to call for bans and fines and punishment based solely on the limited information that I (and most of the people on TL) know.
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On March 14 2019 12:49 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 12:44 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 12:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread. Agreed in all respects. I don't understand why you'll go for that and not the equally suspicious in game evidence but whatever I'm glad you feel the same way about that. I added more detail after you replied. If somebody accused Macsed of matchfixing based solely on his in-game actions and without any abnormal betting line, they'd be laughed out of here. The reason this is suspicious is because of the betting line–Macsed's in-game actions make little difference one way or another, and I take exception to the way people like you are jumping on it as though it were proof of anything. As I said earlier, given what I've seen so far, I personally believe that Macsed was involved in matchfixing. But it's a big leap to call for bans and fines and punishment based solely on the limited information that I know.
The problem with this approach is I can do pretty much anything I want to intentionally throw the game, I don't even need to bother to hide it and it's okay because in game actions make little difference one way or the other. It's such a silly concept to me. I'll never agree.
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On March 14 2019 12:53 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 12:49 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:44 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 12:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread. Agreed in all respects. I don't understand why you'll go for that and not the equally suspicious in game evidence but whatever I'm glad you feel the same way about that. I added more detail after you replied. If somebody accused Macsed of matchfixing based solely on his in-game actions and without any abnormal betting line, they'd be laughed out of here. The reason this is suspicious is because of the betting line–Macsed's in-game actions make little difference one way or another, and I take exception to the way people like you are jumping on it as though it were proof of anything. As I said earlier, given what I've seen so far, I personally believe that Macsed was involved in matchfixing. But it's a big leap to call for bans and fines and punishment based solely on the limited information that I know. The problem with this approach is I can do pretty much anything I want to intentionally throw the game, I don't even need to bother to hide it and it's okay because in game actions make little difference one way or the other. It's such a silly concept to me. I'll never agree.
Of course you can. Throwing a game isn't illegal, and even if it was, how could you ever prove it was a throw? How do you know the player wasn't just tired, or sick, or hungover, or whatever? People make dumb mistakes every day in every way.
What is an actual crime in places like Korea/China, is matchfixing by getting involved with illegal gambling rings. And if you're accusing people of crimes, you need hard evidence. Which is not going to be found by looking at replays, but rather by following the money. And fortunately for us forumgoers, it sounds like the people on the ground are doing just that.
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On March 14 2019 12:57 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 12:53 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 12:49 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:44 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 12:43 pvsnp wrote:On March 14 2019 12:41 Powerfoe wrote:On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote:Macsed's response: "说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091? This response really doesn't offer me any confidence that there wasn't any match fixing involved here. The betting line moved in such a way that it meant a person was extremely confident that Seventy91 would win a map. Nobody is going to put that much money on a sub-4000 MMR player to beat a 6000+ MMR player unless they know for sure a fix is going on. You're not going to just tell a Diamond player, "Hey go proxy gate" and then be that confident that you're going to win the bet. Also, as some posters have pointed out, my original post doesn't contain any details about what happened during the actual game. That is because I wrote and published the post without knowing that the game was even broadcasted; I felt that the MMR disparity as well as the betting trends was more than enough information to warrant a thread. Agreed in all respects. I don't understand why you'll go for that and not the equally suspicious in game evidence but whatever I'm glad you feel the same way about that. I added more detail after you replied. If somebody accused Macsed of matchfixing based solely on his in-game actions and without any abnormal betting line, they'd be laughed out of here. The reason this is suspicious is because of the betting line–Macsed's in-game actions make little difference one way or another, and I take exception to the way people like you are jumping on it as though it were proof of anything. As I said earlier, given what I've seen so far, I personally believe that Macsed was involved in matchfixing. But it's a big leap to call for bans and fines and punishment based solely on the limited information that I know. The problem with this approach is I can do pretty much anything I want to intentionally throw the game, I don't even need to bother to hide it and it's okay because in game actions make little difference one way or the other. It's such a silly concept to me. I'll never agree. Of course you can. Throwing a game isn't illegal, and even if it was, how could you ever prove it was a throw? How do you know the player wasn't just tired, or sick, or hungover, or whatever? People make dumb mistakes every day in every way. What is an actual crime in places like Korea/China, is matchfixing by getting involved with illegal gambling rings. And if you're accusing people of crimes, you need hard evidence. Which is not going to be found by looking at replays, but rather by following the money. And fortunately for us forumgoers, it sounds like the people on the ground are doing just that.
That's why you have to distinguish between situations like this
1) I have a full surround on 2 zealots and at the very last second when one more probe hit is going to kill both of them I pull away all my probes and never go back to kill them
2) I have a full surround on 2 zealots and at the very last second when one more probe hit is going to kill both of them I accidentally click somewhere else but I go back and kill them right away
There is no excuse at all for scenario 1. It can't qualify as a dumb mistake because he could've corrected the mistake after pulling the probes away. He was intentionally allowing the zealots to survive. Also the timing is very unlikely to be pulling away the probes at the very last second when they're 1 shot away from dying if you're innocent. There's way too many pieces of evidence and synchroncities occurring in this game that show beyond reasonable doubt he was actively trying to lose.
Sure throwing a game isn't illegal but this isn't simply throwing a game at some point. That happens all the time due to high level of difficulty in pro games. This is intentionally losing the game in every way against a very inferior player. The only possible incentive to do that is because you're being paid to lose.
Yes you want to have evidence of suspicious betting activity at the same time and that's exactly what we have here. Doesn't mean the in-game actions are irrelevant.
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I would love to know if we can find out if anyone bet for a 2-1 outcome on any other of seventy91’s series. I would also like to know if more than one bet was made or it was just one bet that changed the line so much. Like, giving his MMR disparity from everyone else in his group, you could have picked anyone he played against as it was a long shot he would win regardless.
Knowing this info would make things a lot clearer imo.
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tbh I think there is a chance that Macsed just played really badly that game but I do admit that it's hard to believe this was unintentional. I still think people should wait and see what the investigation says instead of declaring that he match-fixed, even though there is a high chance that he did.
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TLADT24920 Posts
This is an interesting situation. I think the community should ease up slightly on the accusations since they have been brought to light, and the tournament organizer is aware and investigating the situation. I can see both sides of it. If we go by the betting site, it's definitely suspicious, but more information on the amount needed to move the line that far would be really helpful here.
If we go by the rep, there were some unusual mistakes. I don't really follow the scene or watch the game much anymore, but from watching the game, I dunno why macsed revealed his probes. You could argue he fought with them to buy time for the cannon to wrap but then he also left one to die that he could've canceled I think? Aside from that, the block with a cannon rather than a gateway was the weirdest part to me. I'm pretty sure a gateway there fits. That would at least buy him time to get a cannon up, even if partially and he could continue making pylons and walling until that one cannon is done. Getting a cannon started when the zealot was that close was indeed bizzare. The probes should've just finished off the 2 red hp zealots and maybe he thought that he lost enough already but if he has no cannons, he had to fight with the probes even if he lost several more since he had no other choice.
Overall, there's always a chance that he was playing badly but some of these mistakes are definitely bizzare. Still, I believe that people should respect the final decision of the tournament organizer and waiting patiently for it. I remember when MKP had that weird game that he lost, and was found innocent after the investigation so who knows what they'll find here.
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On March 14 2019 12:28 VanCaspel wrote:
WESG admin here, still on-site as one of the two non-Chinese referees. I made a post in this topic before, but would like to add something in response to the latest posts. Seventy91 did do a strategy that was suggested to him by Rail in that second game. Immediately after game 2 he told me so, and Rail, separately, told me the same (that he had advised Seventy91 to do that build, and that he could win with it).
By the way: I'm not involved with any official investigation, but from what I can tell it's being handled well.
Just curious: is it common that after a match, players come over to the referee to tell them whose idea it was to run a certain strategy?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 14 2019 10:12 Boggyb wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 10:08 chipmonklord17 wrote:On March 14 2019 09:51 NinjaNight wrote:On March 14 2019 08:20 chipmonklord17 wrote:
You need hard. evidence. HARD evidence.
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent. I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved. Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that. If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough. Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote:If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.  Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing Crazy how the criminal justice system can convict based solely on circumstantial evidence but esports has to have a much higher standard.
In this case the authorities can access all the data they need, it's not hard. What's more interesting is, how all the "it's matchfixing" guys ignore the response from the referee and Pinnacle. Because they simply don't like it. That's the proper witchhunt. ONLY MY EVIDENCE IS WORTH IT, EVERYONE ELSE'S EVIDENCE IS IGNORED!@#!$!!!!!!!! HURR DURR!!!
Yeah, but even then the criminal system has more than "line moved, but we don't know how much money was involved"* and "he played suspiciously". This is ALL we have.
Hey, pvsnp, thanks for the fighting spirt  Sorry if I butchered your nick
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*btw you do realize that since this was a match of a very unknown player and underdog against a streamer, it could have had very high instability put in the algorithm and just few hundred bucks could have been responsible for all the movement? Because of how volatile the SC2 game is and because it's hard to predict for sure on BO1? (which is what this bet was about)
Edit>
But why am I surprised, even KeSPA standing behind MKP didn't help from some people simply saying - it was matchfixing, I know better than people who harshly punish typing into the chat and left this guy unpunished.
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Nice with so much new information about what is going on. Macseds reply is fishy as hell though, how could Rail "know" that Macsed would try to finish the game quickly? Maybe he could guess that but to design a BO around it for Seventy just seems off, a three gate proxy is that really strong against all kinds of early builds Macsed could try? I mean isn't that only a blind counter to cannon rush specifically? That is really really weird, somehow Rail knew Macsed would cheese, but not only that he would cheese but also what specific cheese?
Macsed even says he believes he would have lost even if he played perfectly? The diamond player is so bad he needs to amove his canon rush probes into the zealot for them to die and needed to activily micro his probes away to not kill the two zealots in his mineral line. We're talking diamond vs GM level here, of course if Macsed defends the all-in which he easily could have done without all those mistakes he should win that game.
He says its his fault and that it is embarassing but he also says it was nothing he could do, even with perfect play he would lose? So he is trying to say "don't look at all my mistakes, the loss has nothing to do with my mistakes it was simply an auto build order loss".
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I continue to dislike the "betting line movement" witchhunts. This is simply something out of control for the players. Someone can ruin their reputation by placing weird bets without them having any idea it's happening and no recourse. Finding "suspicious" ingame behavior to boost your confirmation bias will never be super hard.
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On March 14 2019 17:22 opisska wrote:
I continue to dislike the "betting line movement" witchhunts. This is simply something out of control for the players. Someone can ruin their reputation by placing weird bets without them having any idea it's happening and no recourse. Finding "suspicious" ingame behavior to boost your confirmation bias will never be super hard.
they could just place weird bets, but it would only get called out if the game happened to go exactly the way they bet.
interestingly, these odd betting patterns only occur when the games go in favor of the bets... bizarre
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On March 14 2019 17:25 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 17:22 opisska wrote:
I continue to dislike the "betting line movement" witchhunts. This is simply something out of control for the players. Someone can ruin their reputation by placing weird bets without them having any idea it's happening and no recourse. Finding "suspicious" ingame behavior to boost your confirmation bias will never be super hard. they could just place weird bets, but it would only get called out if the game happened to go exactly the way they bet. interestingly, these odd betting patterns only occur when the games go in favor of the bets... bizarre
Do they? Do you really have statistics on that, or just a vague feeling?
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On March 14 2019 17:22 opisska wrote:
I continue to dislike the "betting line movement" witchhunts. This is simply something out of control for the players. Someone can ruin their reputation by placing weird bets without them having any idea it's happening and no recourse. Finding "suspicious" ingame behavior to boost your confirmation bias will never be super hard.
I mean, sure, it's theoretically possible, but the chances are so minuscule for scenarios like that.
Someone maliciously wanted to target a mid-tier Chinese (semi-)pro player, by placing weird bets, risking his own money, and happens to nail the one game that it actually pans out?
There's a non-zero chance for that, sure, as there is a non-zero chance for someone just blindly picking out that map of that meaningless and low profile series, betting against the odds, and hitting the jackpot.
As it was said before, if only irrefutable and tangible proof paired with a confession would be enough basis for proving any sort of cheating, than pretty much all the cheaters would get away with everything.
I also agree, that those competent with investigating it should do so, but in the meantime, it's completely fine for the community to form an opinion based on what we do know.
If the actual investigation turns up other things, and arrives at a different conclusion (i really dont see it in this case), then sure, that has to be taken as the final ruling.
Until then....
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EPT
