On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game."
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent.
I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved.
Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that.
If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough.
Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players
On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote: If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.
Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing
Crazy how the criminal justice system can convict based solely on circumstantial evidence but esports has to have a much higher standard.
U are too naive to the criminal justice. LOL
what are you doing here mate. you r defending an obvious matchfixer with a TL account that was literally made today. smells funny.
Can I ask you to report this Reddit profile, since it's impersonating real Seventy. I know him, I've met him irl and I know him in SC2 for quite a while. Also since he's in China, he can't make Reddit profile anyway.
1. MacSed is no-longer a pro player. He is now a coach and streamer, and lives with proper income from it. A couple of hundred dollars is absolutely not enough to corrupt him.
2. MacSed plays a lot of other games every night till very late on streaming, auto chess and CSGO for example, and he is not trying to keep a good competitive state obviously. He could lose to anyone.
3. MacSed had pressure from his Chinese friends on site, to win that game quickly, since the opponent was not strong. So he chose an uncommon strategy, and messed it up quickly.
So, say hi to those pain in ass rep analyzers above. You are all wrong.
Lol interesting, from what I heard the chinese scene has improved with a lot of players that do well. They distinguish themselves well in WCS too but sadly there must be a misunderstanding.
If Macsed is the best china has to send to WESG (he took 2 place in the regional qualifier so obviously he is) but he is basically at the level of a diamond 2 on the european server. I guess the strongest professional chinese players are what, high master at best?
So your argument is basically that the chinese players are so shitty that this is the best they got, mid diamond level? Sounds like excuses to me but what do I know
In fact, yes. SC2 in China is struggling with fresh bloods. TIME is the only one playing world class games. iAsonu is retiring. Toodming and MacSed are probably 30 years old already.
Of course MacSed is just above KR 6000, which is the level most chinese pro players at. He should not to lose to a mid diamond player, and that made everybody ROFL. But he does not need that small amount of money, and he is not practicing hard as I said above.
Martha freaking Stewart committed insider trading to save $50k at a time when she was worth approximately $1 billion. People commit crimes all the time when they have money because you can never have too much money.
$50K is a large amount no matter how much you have.
Don't you all know that Scboy "said calculation" in China? It is unlikely there will be any investigation or convincing result in the future. Stop talking about this shit or developing so-called "arguments" in vain and look forward to Serral v.s. Maru in the Final are the wisest thing to do lol
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent.
I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved.
Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that.
If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough.
Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players
On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote: If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.
Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing
Hard evidence: something that can be proven. All these things I mentioned can be proven. These are pieces of hard evidence.
Seems like what you're actually looking for is hard proof of matchfixing like I said which is something pretty unrealistic like a picture of Macsed's transaction with a matchfixing agent.
So once again, your way sucks. The vast majority of the time you aren't going to get your hard, perfectly conclusive proof of matchfixing even when the person is truly guilty.
You can not prove something is blatant, you cannot prove something that you need to interpret. And its interesting that you call it "my way" and yet its literally the way all of SC esports has run ever nor have I actually shared my stance on whether I think its match fixing or not. No hard evidence, no ban. Its pretty simple
Let me be as specific as possible. You need hard evidence to impose a ban or punishment. You need a subjective amount of evidence to believe personally that he is a matchfixer.
You have hard evidence. His actions in game such as blatantly allowing the zealots to survive when they only had about 10 hp left, failing to complete his wall with a gateway instead of a gateway & cannon which would obviously allow the zealot to break through super quickly, fiddling around with his probes for literally no productive reason at all instead of cancelling his cannon, and many other examples. Then you have the hard evidence of the incredibly strange line move that can only mean one thing: someone bet a very large amount of money on his opponent.
I think the greatest failure in general of people who argue against jumping to the matchfixing conclusion is in realizing how devastatingly unlikely it is for a professional player to do all these things in the same game. And you can't tell me it's just a coincidence the very crazy line move happened at the same time. A line move like that is already 100% proof that someone placed big money on the opponent. No one would do that unless it was prearranged. All the individual things that have happened here are already unlikely by themselves. Place them all together into the same storm of events occurring over a single game and it's astronomically unlikely that they all happen together unless there is match fixing involved.
Just because you fail to interpret the evidence to the logical conclusion doesn't mean it isn't hard evidence. The only thing you'll accept is an undeniable photo of his transaction with the matchfixer or something like that.
If everyone thinks like you the matchfixers will just get away with it the vast majority of the time. Your way is not effective enough.
Please allow yourself to look up the definition of hard evidence and get back to me. Because circumstantial/subjective evidence is not equivalent to hard evidence. And you need hard evidence to ban or punish players
On March 14 2019 10:06 RPR_Tempest wrote: If this is true I feel bad for Seventy. Dude must have been SO excited to take a game, but it was a lie.
Kinda like how it actually, provably happened to DRGLing
Hard evidence: something that can be proven. All these things I mentioned can be proven. These are pieces of hard evidence.
Seems like what you're actually looking for is hard proof of matchfixing like I said which is something pretty unrealistic like a picture of Macsed's transaction with a matchfixing agent.
So once again, your way sucks. The vast majority of the time you aren't going to get your hard, perfectly conclusive proof of matchfixing even when the person is truly guilty.
You can not prove something is blatant, you cannot prove something that you need to interpret. And its interesting that you call it "my way" and yet its literally the way all of SC esports has run ever nor have I actually shared my stance on whether I think its match fixing or not. No hard evidence, no ban. Its pretty simple
I mean each piece of evidence is proven to have occurred. He stopped his attack on the 2 zealots with his probes when the zealots were about to die, for example.
Anyway fair enough if you're just stating how they do it.
On March 14 2019 10:41 ZenithM wrote: Mods should be able to lock the thread for new accounts with fewer than 10 posts or something. I get that Chinese fans want to defend the integrity of their scene, but coming in here without solid arguments and with such a clear bias isn't helping anything. We get it, you think homeboy is innocent.
？？？？？？？？？
i get it that you have your pride and prejudice.
everyone wants truth, chinois aussi.
from my perspect, some chinese fans defend his integrity because that he is Macsed, they know something about his story, his personality, and what he suffered this year. he is worth for respect, really.
of course virtue can't prove anything, we need proof and this event should be followed and investigated.
but... forbid chinese useless fans' freedom to express their thought will be helpful...... wow, Je ne crois pas ce soit un concept français.
I'm just really passionate about this because it's so clear that he made so many intentional mistakes.
The fact that a large part of the community continues to say "oh but its just subjective" in this case tells me I don't even have to try to hide the fact that I'm matchfixing. I can do all the stupid stuff I want to lose the game in a very obvious manner and no one will care because hey, it's subjective.
here is MacSed's reply： A simple translation（sorry for my poor english）： I was told Seventy91 much worse than me after first match.So I choose a cannon rush to finish quickly.When I see he bulid only a gateway I judge he will do a second base expansion.I think he played an unreasonable strategy in pro games.But the strategy actually was Rail told Seventy91,for Rail think I will do a misjudgment facing this unreasonable strategy.I really be tricked and have a lot of mistakes.After the match,Rail come over me and display that “It was my idea” .I feel ashamed by this loose.
"说下当时情况吧，第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜，当然所有人都和我这么说，我也觉得他很菜，然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢，但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿，我就封了他得气，一旦封了他拿什么打我低保？可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的，因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的，所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的，因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束，然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了，当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误，但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了，因为我家里已经挡不住了，他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我，太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game."
Believe it or not, I think everyone should take a look at this. And maybe you should call the police to check rail's bank account? Maybe he made the bet on 7091?
Sure, a professional protoss isn't aware of the possibility that the opponent could be proxying when he sees 1 very late gate and no gas in the main base. You can't believe this stuff if you've actually played Protoss up to a decent level on ladder. If he was trying he would certainly scout to make sure it isn't a proxy. He knows better. If the guy was expanding he'd have nothing to worry about. The only way he could lose is not defending a proxy zealot rush. When you have as much experience as Macsed this thought process is automatic.
As merely a masters protoss it's already completely automatic for me to search for a proxy when I see no gasses taken. That's so much more common than no gas nexus and a silly gateway in the main is not going to change anything. That's just a silly ruse to create doubt in peoples minds who don't know better.
If you look at the OP, there was very little mention of what even occurred during the game. The OP had solid evidence on the "suspicious line movements". I don't even care what happened during the game. Everyone who wants to defend MacSed should explain how those "line movements" could've occurred.
On March 14 2019 12:14 Azzur wrote: If you look at the OP, there was very little mention of what even occurred during the game. The OP had solid evidence on the "suspicious line movements". I don't even care what happened during the game. Everyone who wants to defend MacSed should explain how those "line movements" could've occurred.
Exactly this. What happened in-game is nearly irrelevant in terms of actual crimes taking place. Follow the money.
A textbook logical fallacy. Just because matchfixing is one possible explanation does not mean it is the only possible explanation.
Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps not, but this is not proof of either. Correlation does not imply causation.
It's the only explanation I can think of that perfectly fits the cirumstances. Where are your answers to those questions?
You combine these ridiculous things (that never happen to professional caliber players) all happening in one game with the extremely suspicious line movement and it very much does imply causation.
You're only needlessly confounding the issue by claiming this correlation does not imply causation bullshit.
This guy gave a good example:
On March 14 2019 08:03 chipmonklord17 wrote:
On March 14 2019 05:35 IshinShishi wrote: Here's a nice story. A dude comes back from a work trip and finds used condoms under his bed and a belt he is sure isnt his, the room reeks of sex. When he confronts his wife with what he has seen he sees a red mark on her neck, but she says she lent the room to her dear friend Laura, our dude then said that since he saw no definitive proof it didnt happen, then he kissed his wife and went to bed for some deserved peaceful sleep.
Yo I got one of my own.
A dude, a progamer, hell we'll call him Chinese for the sake of fun hypotheticals, is going on a work trip. He finds a diamond league player in his bracket in an MMR that isn't his. He tells his friend he's gonna fuck around because the dude can't possibly beat him anyway. In his match he finds out that he can in fact fuck around too hard and lose the game. He goes home and has his career destroyed because no one likes hard evidence.
Damn stories are fun
That's a terrible example. The game if you watched it goes beyond fucking around, but straight up trying to lose. It's on the level of killing your own units. Letting your opponent know you are cheesing and cheesing badly and not bothering to counter their cheese.
Show me the chat logs, show me the money moved, show me the smoking gun. That's evidence. That's how an actual legal system functions.
Vigilante convictions over suspicious behavior with hypothetical motives and possible reasons are exactly why laws and courts were created in the first place. Thankfully.
In the U.S., convictions based on circumstantial evidence happen all the time. In some instances, circumstantial evidence is better than certain types of direct evidence as it is significantly less fallible. (e.g. cell phone records placing someone in an area can be better than eye witness testimony)
If someone can be convicted of murder based solely upon circumstantial evidence, someone can and should be banned from an esport based on nothing but circumstantial evidence. If the betting pattern described is accurate, MacSed needs to be banned because there is no other reasonable explanation for what happened.
Of course. If the quantity of circumstantial evidence is sufficient to meet the standard of proof, then a guilty verdict is all but guaranteed.
So then, the relevant questions would be:
1. Does the evidence presented here meet that legal standard of proof?
2. Was said evidence presented in accordance with the laws of criminal prosecution?
3. What authority do TL forumgoers have to render judgement?
A smoking gun in the form of direct and incontrovertible evidence is very useful, because in that case even the most legally illiterate reader can add 2+2. Circumstantial evidence on the other hand is, well, circumstantial.
WESG admin here, still on-site as one of the two non-Chinese referees. I made a post in this topic before, but would like to add something in response to the latest posts. Seventy91 did do a strategy that was suggested to him by Rail in that second game. Immediately after game 2 he told me so, and Rail, separately, told me the same (that he had advised Seventy91 to do that build, and that he could win with it).
By the way: I'm not involved with any official investigation, but from what I can tell it's being handled well.
On March 14 2019 12:28 VanCaspel wrote: WESG admin here, still on-site as one of the two non-Chinese referees. I made a post in this topic before, but would like to add something in response to the latest posts. Seventy91 did do a strategy that was suggested to him by Rail in that second game. Immediately after game 2 he told me so, and Rail, separately, told me the same (that he had advised Seventy91 to do that build, and that he could win with it).
By the way: I'm not involved with any official investigation, but from what I can tell it's being handled well.
Thank you again, we appreciate the updates and it's great to hear about the investigation.
On March 14 2019 12:14 Azzur wrote: If you look at the OP, there was very little mention of what even occurred during the game. The OP had solid evidence on the "suspicious line movements". I don't even care what happened during the game. Everyone who wants to defend MacSed should explain how those "line movements" could've occurred.
Yeah people keep reverting back into the game, but the biggest thing is the betting! Something definitely happened.
On March 14 2019 12:14 Azzur wrote: If you look at the OP, there was very little mention of what even occurred during the game. The OP had solid evidence on the "suspicious line movements". I don't even care what happened during the game. Everyone who wants to defend MacSed should explain how those "line movements" could've occurred.
Yeah people keep reverting back into the game, but the biggest thing is the betting! Something definitely happened.
Both are very important. It's just that there's more to focus on in terms of the gameplay. On the betting side it's 100% sure that someone bet large money on Seventy causing a very crazy/rare line move. Now, the only reason someone would do that when he's against such a superior opponent is because the result is prearranged.
That's why I'm only focusing on the gameplay here. The betting side of the argument is super straightforward.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9hnKfzZ.png)
