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Community Feedback Update - Jan 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
227 CommentsPost a Reply
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SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
January 16 2019 18:27 GMT
#1
[image loading]

Source


Greetings! It’s been almost two months since the 2018 end-of-year balance patch and we’ve already seen a ton of interesting metagame developments. Special shoutouts to Onpoong for putting on such awesome Ultimate Battle showmatches in the offseason and to Dark for showing especially great games. Now that we’ve had some time to gather feedback, reflect, and witness the changes in action, we think we’re ready to make some adjustments. In addition to tweaking some of the units we’ve changed in the 4.8 patch, we’d also like to reinforce some of the initial stated goals of the end-of-year patch. These include, but are not limited to, bringing more parity to the late game of various matchups and increasing opening and composition diversity in PvZ.

Terran

Cyclone

*Mag-field Accelerator research time increased from 79 seconds to 100 seconds.


We’ve gotten a lot of varied feedback on the strength of Cyclones in TvZ, but as we feel counterstrategies against Cyclones are still developing, we think it’s too early to hit this matchup too heavily. At the same time, we do feel the Mag-field Accelerator upgrade comes online a bit too quickly, and we’d like to more directly target the initial strength of Cyclones when used as part of TvP proxy all-ins.

Thor

*High Impact Payload weapon range increased from 10 to 11.


We’ve received feedback that TvP late-game still feels Protoss-favored. We believe that by further pushing the Thor’s anti-Massive role, we can open up other late-game TvP options, such as ranged Liberators and Battlecruisers.

Additionally, we’d like for Thors to be slightly more powerful at dislodging enemy Liberators, which we believe will reduce the importance of air control in TvT and promote mid/late-game interaction.

As range adjustments have historically been very impactful, we’ll be keeping an especially close eye on this change.


Battlecruiser

*Weapon Refit research time increased from 43 seconds to 100 seconds.


The Weapon Refit upgrade was not initially designed with early-game Battlecruiser rushes in mind, and we feel these rushes in TvZ come online with full power a bit too quickly. Thus, we'd like to delay the full might of the rush without completely removing the build from the game.
As with Cyclones, we believe Battlecruiser strategies and counterstrategies are still being developed and would like to see how this plays out.


Zerg

Ultralisk

*Anabolic Synthesis upgrade now increases Ultralisk movement speed off creep by 0.82, up from 0.41.


We’ve received feedback that this upgrade isn’t as impactful or as noticeable as we’d like, so we’ve doubled its effectiveness from 10% of the unit’s base speed to 20%. This new speed off-creep will allow Ultralisks to slightly outpace Stimmed Bio even when they aren't kiting.

Nydus Network/Nydus Worm

*Nydus Worm health increased from 200 to 300.
*Nydus Worm armor while emerging decreased from 6 to 5.


We haven't seen many Nydus Networks used so we'd like to make a few changes to remedy this. First, we believe Nydus all-ins are significantly less powerful than we initially intended due to a combination of the Transfuse nerf and the ability to pre-target them before they pop. Increasing the health is intended to allow Nydus Worms to be more resilient against low numbers of units with moderate damage, such as Stalkers and Roaches. This could be especially useful for Zerg players who are trying to be offensive against Cannon contains. At the same time, we’d like to reduce the Nydus’ armor to maintain its relative durability against Terran and Marines.

*Nydus Network and Nydus Worm initial unload delay period decreased from 0.36 to 0.18.
*Nydus Network and Nydus Worm unload period decreased from 0.36 to 0.18.
*Nydus Network and Nydus Worm load period decreased from 0.18 to 0.09.


By changing load and unload periods, we hope to improve how fluid the Nydus feels when used as a mobility tool. Our intent is to make the Nydus Worm more useful in its mobility role without returning its all-in role to the full power of its invulnerability days.

Protoss

Adept

*Gateway build time increased from 27 seconds to 30 seconds. Warp Gate cooldown remains unchanged.


In patch 4.0, we changed Chrono Boost from a persistent effect to a more concentrated charged effect. In practice, this had a large effect on the first units that were built from key structures, such as the first Adept, Oracle, or Warp Prism. Since this change, we’ve been hearing feedback that it’s difficult for Terrans to expand to a low-ground natural, because a Chrono Boosted Adept would cancel it too easily on smaller maps. This interaction is often cited by Terran pros for why TvP macro play feels at a bigger disadvantage than before. We’d like to address this by adding a slight delay to how long it takes an Adept to show up at an enemy base.

Cybernetics Core

*Warp Gate research time decreased from 114 seconds to 100 seconds.


We’d like to revisit the research time of Warp Gate for a variety of reasons across all three affected matchups. In PvT, most offensive options are currently not limited by Warp Gate timing, so we don’t believe this change will have the most significant effect in this matchup. In PvZ, this change could allow Gateway units to more easily fulfill a defensive role that the Oracle currently partially fulfills. That is, Protoss would be able to more easily defend against Baneling busts and more easily expand to a third, either with the support of an Oracle or in lieu of an Oracle. In PvP, strengthening Warp Gate would hopefully disincentivize the Stargate tech path, one that has traditionally been weak against Gateway pushes.

Stalker

*Blink research cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100.


While we’re certainly seeing more Robotics Bay experimentation in PvZ, we’re still not completely satisfied with the amount we’re seeing. As such, the next few changes are partially designed to push Robotics Bay play just a bit more.

For this purpose, we’d like to decrease the research cost of Blink, an ability that has traditionally synergized very well with Robotics Bay tech.

In PvP, we believe this change would allow for an easier counter to Stargate openers and a smoother transition to Disruptors.


Robotics Facility

*Cost decreased from 200/100 to 150/100.


We previously proposed and tested this change with the goal of promoting Robotics openings and mid-game Robotics Bay play in PvZ. However, we eventually decided against it, because it would both reinforce the popularity of Immortals in PvZ and the strength of proxy-Robotics Facility in the context of Cannon rushes. After some additional thought, we’d like to reintroduce this change and pair it with the Immortal change below.

Immortal

*Cost increased from 250/100 to 275/100.


In combination with a Robotics Facility cost reduction, we believe this change would achieve our initial goals without overly strengthening Immortals and proxy-Robotics Facility.

Observer

*Movement speed increased from 2.63 to 3.01.
*Gravitic Boosters upgrade now increases movement speed by 1.51, up from 1.31.


We’d like the Observer to be more able to compete with scouting options from the Stargate.

Oracle

*Removed the Light attribute.
*Added the Armored attribute.


In our previous community update, we talked about Stargate mirrors becoming more popular with the new patch. We believe this is partly because Oracle openings are so powerful against an opponent who doesn’t respond with Phoenix. With this change, we’d like to allow for smaller numbers of Stalkers to be able to defend Oracles. We’ll also be monitoring how this change impacts PvT.
Partially because we’d like to observe the results of this and the Warp Gate change, we will not be changing the behavior of beam weapons in the upcoming patch.


Tempest

*Movement speed decreased from 3.5 to 3.15.
*Acceleration decreased from 2.8 to 2.1.


We received feedback that Tempests may be a bit too mobile, especially against Terran. We’re looking to especially focus on changing the unit’s acceleration, as it would more directly affect its ability to kite and disengage from fights. After these changes, we’ll be paying close attention to how effective Vikings and the new Thors will be at warding off Tempests.

Closing

Our current plan is to release this update, along with the new ladder season, on January 22nd, but this is subject to change. As always, let us know your thoughts, and here’s to another exciting year of StarCraft!
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Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
January 16 2019 18:36 GMT
#2
Nice, now Terran will get buttfucked by Protoss before a fleet beacon is even made.

User was temp banned for this post.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Mlord
Profile Joined February 2013
France135 Posts
January 16 2019 18:49 GMT
#3
Immortal

*Cost increased from 250/100 to 275/100.


Nice lets go mech
Progamer
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15063 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 18:56:52
January 16 2019 18:53 GMT
#4
Wtf is this I thought a big redesign only happens once a year??
Extremely disappointed they apparently adopted the LoL patch philosophy..


I have no idea why they want to push robotics bay play - that kind of playstyle is so boring compared to Gateway-Immortal styles.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
January 16 2019 18:56 GMT
#5
I'm surprised they would bother to patch the game at all before any major tournament results have come in. I wouldn't think that IEM quals are the best indicator of where a balance patch is, unless something extremely big happened that I missed.
kiss kiss fall in love
K5
Profile Joined November 2014
Slovenia22 Posts
January 16 2019 18:58 GMT
#6
Is this an out of season april fools joke?

On a serious note, the only sensible change I see is the oracle tag change.
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 19:12:23
January 16 2019 19:01 GMT
#7
The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3141 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 19:09:51
January 16 2019 19:07 GMT
#8
3 years later : https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/505739-a-change-to-the-oracle

I wonder why they feel the need to strengthen protoss in a matchup they are doing well in, and weaken them in a matchup they aren't...

And nydus for mobility? Still trying to push for that when zergs already have the most mobile units and creep?

One of the most non-sensical patches imo
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
2514 Posts
January 16 2019 19:08 GMT
#9
wait ultras will be able to run faster than stimmed bio off creep now? Does that even make sense? Feels silly, and i'm a zerg player.
@wilted_kale
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15063 Posts
January 16 2019 19:09 GMT
#10
On January 17 2019 04:07 ArtyK wrote:
3 years later : https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/505739-a-change-to-the-oracle

I wonder why they feel the need to strengthen protoss in a matchup they are doing well in, and weaken them in a matchup they aren't...

Hey! Blizzard listens
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
terribleplayer1
Profile Joined July 2018
95 Posts
January 16 2019 19:12 GMT
#11
Sort of what I expected, T nerfs, Z/P buffs.

Zerg is just doing really poorly even in WCS that usually is Z infested, Z is getting btfod.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55356 Posts
January 16 2019 19:12 GMT
#12
I was unaware Terran was overperforming to the degree that it had to get nerfed while Protoss and Zerg got buffed against it as well.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 19:16:58
January 16 2019 19:12 GMT
#13
This is certainly not something I was expecting this quickly. I'm surprised they are doing this many changes without any tournaments to even test out their previous changes. The tempest change makes sense and is certainly what I was expecting would happen at some point. The blink change seems kinda questionable when combined with the shorter warpgate research time. The Mag-Field Accelerator change is understandable though that Weapon Refit time increase seems like it might be a bit... much.

The observer change is actually pretty good since currently opening stargate is so much better from a scouting perspective. Anything to prevent the meta being protoss just opening stargate in a 3 matchups is welcomed by me.

It must be telling how big of an issue they view the mass phoenix stuff in PvP is they're willing to do this many changes to try and fix it. I mean, to be fair, it does really suck, but I still think giving stalkers bonus damage versus light air units would solve both the phoenix stuff and protoss having to open stargate in case zerg goes/switches to mutas in ZvP.

But yeah, as others have said, these changes seem a bit weird and like they may have unintended consequences. I'm all for solving the mass phoenix issue, but this may end up turning PvP into a 3gate warp prism all-in fest.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Ctone23
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States1839 Posts
January 16 2019 19:18 GMT
#14
Cost decrease for Blink and reduced WG timing?? Seems odd to couple those changes. Tempest and Thor changes make a lot of sense. Overall I like the direction, other than my fear of incoming 2 base blink all ins.
TL+ Member
Vision_
Profile Joined September 2018
592 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 19:22:35
January 16 2019 19:18 GMT
#15
Terran adjustement seems very legit from what i ve heard of pro..

Then i agree with you, RogerChillingworth
On January 17 2019 04:08 RogerChillingworth wrote:
wait ultras will be able to run faster than stimmed bio off creep now? Does that even make sense? Feels silly, and i'm a zerg player.


But.. It s funny how fiction can transcend reality.. I was guessing when Ultralisk could surf on skateboard cause they were the only units which doesn t benefit of speed on creep.. Well.. It was just a joke for me.. And as i m not a pro i can t complain on Ultralisk strenght but the units is already strong for diamond / mid master player who come back since two months.

I ll not complaining cause i do all in against every match up, but a solution could be to reduce the Ultralisk size collision box. Like that the zerg can be punished if he s moving to far from his creep, and Ultralisks will benefit of a faster positionning.
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
January 16 2019 19:20 GMT
#16
Yes PvT was unplayable, buffs are legit, poor toss, they have to endure it for one more week ...
TL+ Member
RIPTerran2019
Profile Joined January 2019
1 Post
January 16 2019 19:23 GMT
#17
Blizzard *hits blunt*
yeee man lets buff protoss and nerf terran

User was warned for this post.
Spirit_HUN
Profile Joined March 2018
24 Posts
January 16 2019 19:41 GMT
#18
Cyclone

I dont understand why they do 400/800 damage with a single lock on. Thats too much. Also you should increase their cooldown. Nerfing the upgrade time will have no impact, you should rather wait to see how this strategy develops and nerf later the damage or the cooldown.

Thor

I dont understand why this unit have anti-light aoe air attack and why it has a high damage single target air attack. I think you should remove one of them, and make other attack better. Terrans still wont use mass thors to counter tempest because the unit is too clunky and immobile. Also they are already too good vs brood lords. So i think you already want to nerf tempests so you should not buff thors at the same time.

Battlecruisers

Tell me when a protoss can make a carrier or a zerg can make a brood lord safely at 4:20. This is a bad joke. Fusion core should costs more, take more time to build. The yamato should be built in, the magic teleport should be removed or be an upgrade for 200/200 and for a long research time.

Ultralisk

Yes, this upgrade was a joke. It will be too strong vs normal bio + tank, but there are still many hard counter to ultras so i think this change is fine.

Nydus

Changing armor/health will do no impact. Changing the unload/load period is a good change. I think you should decrease the cost of the network, and increase to worm cost to 100/100 to prevent spamming this ability.

Adept

Seems okay.

Warpgate

This is not okay. Chargelot allin / blink stalker timings will be even more stronger.

Blink/Stalker

Seems okay. Stalkers are a bit underused i think. But 100/100 upgrade on a charged zealot is too good. Pls look after the charged zealots.

Robotics

No. Never.

Winmoretall

You complained previously that hydras are too much of a core unit. Please look after immortals. They are heavily used in all 3 mu-s. In PvZ (im zerg) toss makes them vs everything. Hydra-bane-ling, roach/ravager/sh/, they make them vs mutas, brood lords, ultras. So immortals are too much of a core unit. It supposed to have an anti armored role.

Observer

Good. They were too fragile.

Oracle

Interesting. Seems fine.

Tempest

I feel like you failed with this unit once more. Nerf is okay, but i think you should decrease supply cost to 4 and make their weapon speed slower. Maybe nerf the speed even more.
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
January 16 2019 19:41 GMT
#19
Oracle change is the only decent idea. It will improve pvp (i hope so).
All other protoss changes are BS.
also reintroduce a siege upgrade for tanks. Those early terran pushes are a fucking joke.
Less is more.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55356 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-16 19:48:19
January 16 2019 19:48 GMT
#20
On January 17 2019 04:41 insitelol wrote:
also reintroduce a siege upgrade for tanks. Those early terran pushes are a fucking joke.

This patch already does its very best to shaft Terran before any major tournaments have been played on the current one. I think we can hold off on this particular idea for a bit more. Say, a few more decades?
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