Greetings! It’s been almost two months since the 2018 end-of-year balance patch and we’ve already seen a ton of interesting metagame developments. Special shoutouts to Onpoong for putting on such awesome Ultimate Battle showmatches in the offseason and to Dark for showing especially great games. Now that we’ve had some time to gather feedback, reflect, and witness the changes in action, we think we’re ready to make some adjustments. In addition to tweaking some of the units we’ve changed in the 4.8 patch, we’d also like to reinforce some of the initial stated goals of the end-of-year patch. These include, but are not limited to, bringing more parity to the late game of various matchups and increasing opening and composition diversity in PvZ.
Terran
Cyclone
*Mag-field Accelerator research time increased from 79 seconds to 100 seconds.
We’ve gotten a lot of varied feedback on the strength of Cyclones in TvZ, but as we feel counterstrategies against Cyclones are still developing, we think it’s too early to hit this matchup too heavily. At the same time, we do feel the Mag-field Accelerator upgrade comes online a bit too quickly, and we’d like to more directly target the initial strength of Cyclones when used as part of TvP proxy all-ins.
Thor
*High Impact Payload weapon range increased from 10 to 11.
We’ve received feedback that TvP late-game still feels Protoss-favored. We believe that by further pushing the Thor’s anti-Massive role, we can open up other late-game TvP options, such as ranged Liberators and Battlecruisers.
Additionally, we’d like for Thors to be slightly more powerful at dislodging enemy Liberators, which we believe will reduce the importance of air control in TvT and promote mid/late-game interaction.
As range adjustments have historically been very impactful, we’ll be keeping an especially close eye on this change.
Battlecruiser
*Weapon Refit research time increased from 43 seconds to 100 seconds.
The Weapon Refit upgrade was not initially designed with early-game Battlecruiser rushes in mind, and we feel these rushes in TvZ come online with full power a bit too quickly. Thus, we'd like to delay the full might of the rush without completely removing the build from the game. As with Cyclones, we believe Battlecruiser strategies and counterstrategies are still being developed and would like to see how this plays out.
Zerg
Ultralisk
*Anabolic Synthesis upgrade now increases Ultralisk movement speed off creep by 0.82, up from 0.41.
We’ve received feedback that this upgrade isn’t as impactful or as noticeable as we’d like, so we’ve doubled its effectiveness from 10% of the unit’s base speed to 20%. This new speed off-creep will allow Ultralisks to slightly outpace Stimmed Bio even when they aren't kiting.
Nydus Network/Nydus Worm
*Nydus Worm health increased from 200 to 300. *Nydus Worm armor while emerging decreased from 6 to 5.
We haven't seen many Nydus Networks used so we'd like to make a few changes to remedy this. First, we believe Nydus all-ins are significantly less powerful than we initially intended due to a combination of the Transfuse nerf and the ability to pre-target them before they pop. Increasing the health is intended to allow Nydus Worms to be more resilient against low numbers of units with moderate damage, such as Stalkers and Roaches. This could be especially useful for Zerg players who are trying to be offensive against Cannon contains. At the same time, we’d like to reduce the Nydus’ armor to maintain its relative durability against Terran and Marines.
*Nydus Network and Nydus Worm initial unload delay period decreased from 0.36 to 0.18. *Nydus Network and Nydus Worm unload period decreased from 0.36 to 0.18. *Nydus Network and Nydus Worm load period decreased from 0.18 to 0.09.
By changing load and unload periods, we hope to improve how fluid the Nydus feels when used as a mobility tool. Our intent is to make the Nydus Worm more useful in its mobility role without returning its all-in role to the full power of its invulnerability days.
Protoss
Adept
*Gateway build time increased from 27 seconds to 30 seconds. Warp Gate cooldown remains unchanged.
In patch 4.0, we changed Chrono Boost from a persistent effect to a more concentrated charged effect. In practice, this had a large effect on the first units that were built from key structures, such as the first Adept, Oracle, or Warp Prism. Since this change, we’ve been hearing feedback that it’s difficult for Terrans to expand to a low-ground natural, because a Chrono Boosted Adept would cancel it too easily on smaller maps. This interaction is often cited by Terran pros for why TvP macro play feels at a bigger disadvantage than before. We’d like to address this by adding a slight delay to how long it takes an Adept to show up at an enemy base.
Cybernetics Core
*Warp Gate research time decreased from 114 seconds to 100 seconds.
We’d like to revisit the research time of Warp Gate for a variety of reasons across all three affected matchups. In PvT, most offensive options are currently not limited by Warp Gate timing, so we don’t believe this change will have the most significant effect in this matchup. In PvZ, this change could allow Gateway units to more easily fulfill a defensive role that the Oracle currently partially fulfills. That is, Protoss would be able to more easily defend against Baneling busts and more easily expand to a third, either with the support of an Oracle or in lieu of an Oracle. In PvP, strengthening Warp Gate would hopefully disincentivize the Stargate tech path, one that has traditionally been weak against Gateway pushes.
Stalker
*Blink research cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100.
While we’re certainly seeing more Robotics Bay experimentation in PvZ, we’re still not completely satisfied with the amount we’re seeing. As such, the next few changes are partially designed to push Robotics Bay play just a bit more.
For this purpose, we’d like to decrease the research cost of Blink, an ability that has traditionally synergized very well with Robotics Bay tech.
In PvP, we believe this change would allow for an easier counter to Stargate openers and a smoother transition to Disruptors.
Robotics Facility
*Cost decreased from 200/100 to 150/100.
We previously proposed and tested this change with the goal of promoting Robotics openings and mid-game Robotics Bay play in PvZ. However, we eventually decided against it, because it would both reinforce the popularity of Immortals in PvZ and the strength of proxy-Robotics Facility in the context of Cannon rushes. After some additional thought, we’d like to reintroduce this change and pair it with the Immortal change below.
Immortal
*Cost increased from 250/100 to 275/100.
In combination with a Robotics Facility cost reduction, we believe this change would achieve our initial goals without overly strengthening Immortals and proxy-Robotics Facility.
Observer
*Movement speed increased from 2.63 to 3.01. *Gravitic Boosters upgrade now increases movement speed by 1.51, up from 1.31.
We’d like the Observer to be more able to compete with scouting options from the Stargate.
Oracle
*Removed the Light attribute. *Added the Armored attribute.
In our previous community update, we talked about Stargate mirrors becoming more popular with the new patch. We believe this is partly because Oracle openings are so powerful against an opponent who doesn’t respond with Phoenix. With this change, we’d like to allow for smaller numbers of Stalkers to be able to defend Oracles. We’ll also be monitoring how this change impacts PvT. Partially because we’d like to observe the results of this and the Warp Gate change, we will not be changing the behavior of beam weapons in the upcoming patch.
Tempest
*Movement speed decreased from 3.5 to 3.15. *Acceleration decreased from 2.8 to 2.1.
We received feedback that Tempests may be a bit too mobile, especially against Terran. We’re looking to especially focus on changing the unit’s acceleration, as it would more directly affect its ability to kite and disengage from fights. After these changes, we’ll be paying close attention to how effective Vikings and the new Thors will be at warding off Tempests.
Closing
Our current plan is to release this update, along with the new ladder season, on January 22nd, but this is subject to change. As always, let us know your thoughts, and here’s to another exciting year of StarCraft!
I'm surprised they would bother to patch the game at all before any major tournament results have come in. I wouldn't think that IEM quals are the best indicator of where a balance patch is, unless something extremely big happened that I missed.
The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
This is certainly not something I was expecting this quickly. I'm surprised they are doing this many changes without any tournaments to even test out their previous changes. The tempest change makes sense and is certainly what I was expecting would happen at some point. The blink change seems kinda questionable when combined with the shorter warpgate research time. The Mag-Field Accelerator change is understandable though that Weapon Refit time increase seems like it might be a bit... much.
The observer change is actually pretty good since currently opening stargate is so much better from a scouting perspective. Anything to prevent the meta being protoss just opening stargate in a 3 matchups is welcomed by me.
It must be telling how big of an issue they view the mass phoenix stuff in PvP is they're willing to do this many changes to try and fix it. I mean, to be fair, it does really suck, but I still think giving stalkers bonus damage versus light air units would solve both the phoenix stuff and protoss having to open stargate in case zerg goes/switches to mutas in ZvP.
But yeah, as others have said, these changes seem a bit weird and like they may have unintended consequences. I'm all for solving the mass phoenix issue, but this may end up turning PvP into a 3gate warp prism all-in fest.
Cost decrease for Blink and reduced WG timing?? Seems odd to couple those changes. Tempest and Thor changes make a lot of sense. Overall I like the direction, other than my fear of incoming 2 base blink all ins.
Terran adjustement seems very legit from what i ve heard of pro..
Then i agree with you, RogerChillingworth
On January 17 2019 04:08 RogerChillingworth wrote: wait ultras will be able to run faster than stimmed bio off creep now? Does that even make sense? Feels silly, and i'm a zerg player.
But.. It s funny how fiction can transcend reality.. I was guessing when Ultralisk could surf on skateboard cause they were the only units which doesn t benefit of speed on creep.. Well.. It was just a joke for me.. And as i m not a pro i can t complain on Ultralisk strenght but the units is already strong for diamond / mid master player who come back since two months.
I ll not complaining cause i do all in against every match up, but a solution could be to reduce the Ultralisk size collision box. Like that the zerg can be punished if he s moving to far from his creep, and Ultralisks will benefit of a faster positionning.
I dont understand why they do 400/800 damage with a single lock on. Thats too much. Also you should increase their cooldown. Nerfing the upgrade time will have no impact, you should rather wait to see how this strategy develops and nerf later the damage or the cooldown.
Thor
I dont understand why this unit have anti-light aoe air attack and why it has a high damage single target air attack. I think you should remove one of them, and make other attack better. Terrans still wont use mass thors to counter tempest because the unit is too clunky and immobile. Also they are already too good vs brood lords. So i think you already want to nerf tempests so you should not buff thors at the same time.
Battlecruisers
Tell me when a protoss can make a carrier or a zerg can make a brood lord safely at 4:20. This is a bad joke. Fusion core should costs more, take more time to build. The yamato should be built in, the magic teleport should be removed or be an upgrade for 200/200 and for a long research time.
Ultralisk
Yes, this upgrade was a joke. It will be too strong vs normal bio + tank, but there are still many hard counter to ultras so i think this change is fine.
Nydus
Changing armor/health will do no impact. Changing the unload/load period is a good change. I think you should decrease the cost of the network, and increase to worm cost to 100/100 to prevent spamming this ability.
Adept
Seems okay.
Warpgate
This is not okay. Chargelot allin / blink stalker timings will be even more stronger.
Blink/Stalker
Seems okay. Stalkers are a bit underused i think. But 100/100 upgrade on a charged zealot is too good. Pls look after the charged zealots.
Robotics
No. Never.
Winmoretall
You complained previously that hydras are too much of a core unit. Please look after immortals. They are heavily used in all 3 mu-s. In PvZ (im zerg) toss makes them vs everything. Hydra-bane-ling, roach/ravager/sh/, they make them vs mutas, brood lords, ultras. So immortals are too much of a core unit. It supposed to have an anti armored role.
Observer
Good. They were too fragile.
Oracle
Interesting. Seems fine.
Tempest
I feel like you failed with this unit once more. Nerf is okay, but i think you should decrease supply cost to 4 and make their weapon speed slower. Maybe nerf the speed even more.
Oracle change is the only decent idea. It will improve pvp (i hope so). All other protoss changes are BS. also reintroduce a siege upgrade for tanks. Those early terran pushes are a fucking joke.
On January 17 2019 04:41 insitelol wrote: also reintroduce a siege upgrade for tanks. Those early terran pushes are a fucking joke.
This patch already does its very best to shaft Terran before any major tournaments have been played on the current one. I think we can hold off on this particular idea for a bit more. Say, a few more decades?
On January 17 2019 04:01 DomeGetta wrote: The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
GUYS. Pls? No one notice this yet? Explain pls if ive misunderstood or is the intent to force Z to go fast lair everygame?
I wanna ask about this patch's one thing . Why nobody mention PvZ's swarm-hosts issue ? Or it's not problems for protoss ? Is balance team so low-skilled that dont see protoss has to play double-stargate to prevent powerfulness of roach-hosts openning and delay zergs swarm-host transition . However there is still no realy counter for swarmhosts in normal game situation , if you play normally without gamble/all-in opennings , most likely zerg will kill you with first wave of locusts . 2nd issue is rapid-fire-ability in case of ravagers . Coldown of bails is too short , and with the help of rapid-fire ability comes too strong i believe . Ravagers and roach's still can be strong as all-in units , but they shouldn't be strong enough to keep 160 army of protoss on distance as much time as you want , by using only one click . I think not about nerf ability of corrosive bail directly , but as u nerfed bug with oracle-attack switch , u should think about change this auto-20-bails-lines each few seconds , which good zergs demonstrate all the time . Its same direction as oracle-nerf .
I hope blizzard read this post .
Protoss players are too modest and never ever try speak about position on pro-level . But what i told in this post - it's really problem for all the protoss's , since so many nerfs done . Ur new tempests cant beat brood , and u even nerf it more . Nothing of protoss can beat infestor in current patch . But okay , it's very late game and we can play mid-game like most pro-games looking atm - we play mid games i fine . But pls make at least mid-game balanced , unbeatable swarm-hosts is kinda joke
For TvZ i think the BC nerf is good, the cyclone nerf is a little bit ?? as its gonna affect way more TvP cyclone cheese than anything For TvP i'm kinda surprised, they are trying to fix what they see, AKA early game problem, but don't deal with the major imbalance that there is in mid/lategame in the matchup, if nobody try to macro in TvP it isn't because terran cheese are too strong but because of the amount of powerfull option protoss keeps adding to their army the longer the game goes, HT+colossus+disruptor, + eventually tempest makes it incredibly unfair, as terran have literally 0 army composition to deal with this kind of army, and that harassing in TvP is way weaker than it used to be thanks to recall being extremely low cooldown, battery shield, and most of the time protoss having huge upgrade advantage thanks to chronoboost, what can you do if you can't harass and can't fight straight up once there is more than 1 high tech unit in your opponent's army . Also note that TvP used to be very map dependant in macro game, but nowadays thanks to the anti-drop/harass option they got, it makes the match up heavily protoss favored no matter what map you play (macrowise obviously). TvP Feels like a clownfiesta to play, and not a single terran or protoss will be able to show greatness in the match up until the randomness in it is fixed, and until terran is allowed to play on even foot a macro game Innovation and Maru don't want to spam all ins and risky push everygame that gives them inconsistency , they are forced to
Is it an April fool joke? Ultra run faster than the stimed bio is insane. it means as bio army can't even push out any more. liberator? run through it, tank? crush it, ghost? charge to it. is it another way that blizzard trying to force terran to play mech? and control/ telling the players to play what the blizzard want
what a bunch of random changes. never thought id say this but can we have david kim back please? what a bunch of incompetent and out of touch people we have now is unheard of. you keep pushing and pushing the game in a non-fun to play AND observe direction and then keep making nonsensical balance changes around it.
On January 17 2019 05:46 freelifeffs wrote: what a bunch of random changes. never thought id say this but can we have david kim back please? what a bunch of incompetent and out of touch people we have now is unheard of. you keep pushing and pushing the game in a non-fun to play AND observe direction and then keep making nonsensical balance changes around it.
As always we only notice how good things are once they're gone. DK may have been a bit stubborn sometimes but at least he had a clear vision for the game which was recognizable in every balance update. Current balance team seems to be going back and forth with their goals with no direction at all.
On January 17 2019 05:46 freelifeffs wrote: what a bunch of random changes. never thought id say this but can we have david kim back please? what a bunch of incompetent and out of touch people we have now is unheard of. you keep pushing and pushing the game in a non-fun to play AND observe direction and then keep making nonsensical balance changes around it.
As always we only notice how good things are once they're gone. DK may have been a bit stubborn sometimes but at least he had a clear vision for the game which was recognizable in every balance update. Current balance team seems to be going back and forth with their goals with no direction at all.
What are you talking about? For the longest time the old balance team's only guiding principle seemed to be "make the smallest possible numerical adjustment to even out winrates".
The new team has been great about focusing on the actual design of game (does this change promote interesting gameplay) rather than balance minutiae. They've also been way more communicative and transparent about their reasoning than the old team ever was.
Huge nerfs to two Terran rushes that were at least fun to watch. Tempests retaining the ability to kill air units from a couple miles away. A thor buff that doesn't adress the fundamental issues with the unit vT/vP, and is pretty much inconsequential vZ. Massive ultra buff. WP & stalker buff.
It feels like they're just randomly changing stuff and hoping the pieces will fall in the right spots, and not even pretending to pay attention to either the community, high level players, or the ideas behind the game itself.
An interesting approach that in the past months (year?) made macro TvP a rare sight, and TvT a race to lib range, but at least TvZ was still all right until now.
Blizz should change spine crawler burrow time to the same time spore crawlers have. 1 base ling/bling, cannon rushes, proxy raxes are very hard to hold and spine crawlers cant burrow in time.
Also dont mention David Kim, it was the best day of sc2 when he left. Never ending locust waves, droppable siege tanks, kill everything with adepts, unholdable reaper rushes etc etc ... Also "lets wait and see" when something was completely broken, he also lied when he said he talked with korean pros. He made a ton of random changes too ...
The thor range buff is actually insanely good and I hope pros give it a real chance, means thors that get stuck behind other thors/units or can't advance cause of broodlings can get shots off vs tempests and broods.
On January 17 2019 05:46 freelifeffs wrote: what a bunch of random changes. never thought id say this but can we have david kim back please? what a bunch of incompetent and out of touch people we have now is unheard of. you keep pushing and pushing the game in a non-fun to play AND observe direction and then keep making nonsensical balance changes around it.
As always we only notice how good things are once they're gone. DK may have been a bit stubborn sometimes but at least he had a clear vision for the game which was recognizable in every balance update. Current balance team seems to be going back and forth with their goals with no direction at all.
What are you talking about? For the longest time the old balance team's only guiding principle seemed to be "make the smallest possible numerical adjustment to even out winrates".
The new team has been great about focusing on the actual design of game (does this change promote interesting gameplay) rather than balance minutiae. They've also been way more communicative and transparent about their reasoning than the old team ever was.
"Way more communicative and transparent" yeah lol - all they do is suggesting random changes and implement the least complained about ones. they have no vision at all for the game unlike David Kim.
And the endless tinkering with balance continues just so they can realize the balance has not improved... again. This constant (and kinda random) numbers-juggling is just stupid at this point.
On January 17 2019 05:46 freelifeffs wrote: what a bunch of random changes. never thought id say this but can we have david kim back please? what a bunch of incompetent and out of touch people we have now is unheard of. you keep pushing and pushing the game in a non-fun to play AND observe direction and then keep making nonsensical balance changes around it.
As always we only notice how good things are once they're gone. DK may have been a bit stubborn sometimes but at least he had a clear vision for the game which was recognizable in every balance update. Current balance team seems to be going back and forth with their goals with no direction at all.
What are you talking about? For the longest time the old balance team's only guiding principle seemed to be "make the smallest possible numerical adjustment to even out winrates".
The new team has been great about focusing on the actual design of game (does this change promote interesting gameplay) rather than balance minutiae. They've also been way more communicative and transparent about their reasoning than the old team ever was.
"Way more communicative and transparent" yeah lol - all they do is suggesting random changes and implement the least complained about ones. they have no vision at all for the game unlike David Kim.
These are too many changes at once. I don't think that balance numbers are so bad that justify this in the middle of the season, especially those changes on warpgate and blink, which are used every-single-game. I agree with the goals but keep calm and try the incremental approach.
I feel this patch was made with the best intentions but I am not sure the results will be the ones Blizzard was hoping for.
Immortals were everywhere, Tempests too effective, Thor almost always overlooked, Cyclones very annoying. Battlecruisers were coming online too early but they weren't too effective, this delay might render BC opening not viable ; Ultras on the other hand were not performing well but now they will steamroll Bio, they shouldn't be able to outpace stim.
As for TvP, the point is that while it's true and undeniable that Protoss has the advantage later in the game, recently Terran midgame pushes were too strong(at least if we take a look at IEM qualifiers); they tried to limit that, but they didn't address the lategame appropriately.
Moreover, this patch feels a little rushed as no real relevant event was played in the current one(HSC was played too early to understand anything balance wise).
I just don't understand why they refuse to mention swarmhosts in any of their updates. The unit is so bad designed, it's really one of the most unfun game mechanics in my opinion and besides terrible design, it's also pretty imbalanced against certain playstyles.
Swarmhosts have only brought problems to the game (for obvious reasons) since it got introduced back in hots and all those redesign attempts just didn't fix it. The core issues remain and it just hurts as a hardcore starcraft fan and player and very passionate RTS player that a unit like that still remains in such a such a beautfiful game like starcraft 2 after all this time.
Im sure that swarmhosts could be replaced with a much more interesting unit for zerg.
really blizzard?:/ look at T V Z how nice match up. and p v z... and then T V P. wtf.. come on how much time will take you to make t v p a long macro game. i wish we could watch some t v p games of 20-30 min,, its like a dream... i'm not saying that its easy, just wondering how many years its will take.. you need to do a big changes i think between protoss and terran. even think of new units .. i don't know....... its far away from balance or a good match up... before legacy of the void tvp was more balanced but it also was so bad.. stim bio vikings / ghosts against mass colossus stalkers .. the battle end in a few seconds...-_- this is so bad without comparing it to sc bw tvp lol.... i think terran need new units against protoss or,, i don't fking know :D.
On January 17 2019 03:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: This interaction is often cited by Terran pros for why TvP macro play feels at a bigger disadvantage than before. We’d like to address this by adding a slight delay to how long it takes an Adept to show up at an enemy base.
I'm glad to hear Blizzard is making balance tweaks revolving around the top level of the game.
Its nice that Blizzard still has a team actively watching and analyzing RTS games several years after that game's big revenue intake has ended.
Maybe things ain't at the absolute greatest levels at Blizzard but the sky ain't fallin' either.
After a fantastic 2018 year of StarCraft 2, I'm really losing confidence in Bliz dev teams and changes like these are making me not want to play. Not really understanding their rationale for these decisions
I had read blizzard forum, reddit and twitter on this matter and I'm laughing so hard right now. It's just a meme bro. Team Balance is a meme. Crazy stuff. Looks like we are going down. All-ins and cheese games for life.
Well this should be a blast! Can't wait for every ZvT Zerg rushing straight to mass Ultra then sending them out in waves vs Terran. No creep? Don't worry, don't need it!
I will be very amused as a low master Terran player by all the players who memorized their build orders to get an adept out exactly when the scouting reaper arrives have 3 seconds of terror before they figure out they need to adjust.
On January 17 2019 04:01 DomeGetta wrote: The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
Or maybe zergs could, you know, come up with a new strategy.
On January 17 2019 04:01 DomeGetta wrote: The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
Or maybe zergs could, you know, come up with a new strategy.
Astounding. You'd think after multiple years in Lotv pro gamers might have done that if there was another way to hold...but look at that some shitter on TL just cracked the code.
On January 17 2019 04:01 DomeGetta wrote: The warpgate change is HUGE in ZvP. Doesnt look like they considered this at all but scouting when it starts is basically the only sure way to be able to scout for the DT drop/twilight aggro timing. If they can start it 14 seconds later anyway that means the Zerg cannot know whether its SG first or not and will have to go fast lair every game no matter what. They need to make an adjustment to account for that for sure.
Or maybe zergs could, you know, come up with a new strategy.
Astounding. You'd think after multiple years in Lotv pro gamers might have done that if there was another way to hold...but look at that some shitter on TL just cracked the code.
There's this game called Starcraft: Brood War, you should maybe play it or read about it... anyway I don't think that any of these changes should have been made except maybe the BC nerf (and perhaps the tempest nerf).
I don't know why Blizzard doesn't just revert all the changes made in the last year, possibly remove swarm hosts, and then fire the balance team and don't replace them. It would save them some money.
On January 17 2019 12:19 Thaniri wrote: Adept build time increased by 3 seconds.
I will be very amused as a low master Terran player by all the players who memorized their build orders to get an adept out exactly when the scouting reaper arrives have 3 seconds of terror before they figure out they need to adjust.
it would be the same build time as a stalker, and you can already open stalker in pvt currently. also there is no build for "exactly when the reaper arrives" because maps are different sizes - if you're doing map specific builds on ladder then you're probably paying attention to the patches as well. so i don't really know what problem you think toss is going to have or what's amusing? when patches hit some people won't know and they'll continue doing outdated builds - doesn't that apply to all races and all patches? even in the current patch protoss generally knows how to micro probes against things like proxy reaper, which is the same exact situation ("uh oh, the reaper is early for my defense")
Wait Oracles being armoured means we're going to need more Marines to kill them right?
Either way, I liked the changes in the beginning of the post. But as I read more and more, I went what the fuck. Clearly they have no idea what they're doing.
On January 17 2019 13:17 geokilla wrote: Wait Oracles being armoured means we're going to need more Marines to kill them right?
Either way, I liked the changes in the beginning of the post. But as I read more and more, I went what the fuck. Clearly they have no idea what they're doing.
its not additional armor, it is armored tag. it means stalkers will be able to kill them easier.
On January 17 2019 13:17 geokilla wrote: Wait Oracles being armoured means we're going to need more Marines to kill them right?
Either way, I liked the changes in the beginning of the post. But as I read more and more, I went what the fuck. Clearly they have no idea what they're doing.
its not additional armor, it is armored tag. it means stalkers will be able to kill them easier.
it also means vikings will strip oracle shields by 3rd shot instead of 4th and kill it by 6th shot instead of 8th, and no terrans have mentioned that at all. it's kind of bizarre how few people seem interested in analyzing and admitting things that benefit them? idk, it's a strange mindset.
People needs to chill for a second. This is a Community update. None of these changes are final. Updates are frequent and you can give feedback and the changes will be adjusted.
There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
On January 17 2019 04:08 RogerChillingworth wrote: wait ultras will be able to run faster than stimmed bio off creep now? Does that even make sense? Feels silly, and i'm a zerg player.
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
You do the exact same thing as before because it doesn't hit any earlier.
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
You do the exact same thing as before because it doesn't hit any earlier.
Cyclone nerf it's a straight buff. WG research buff. Robo + obs buff. + Shield battaries. + Chronoboost.
Stop trolling terrans. Please. Go and think about or i'll call a moderator to lock you up.
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
Lol, for sure, this buff was needed, blink stalker are too weak atm, you got it !
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
You do the exact same thing as before because it doesn't hit any earlier.
Cyclone nerf it's a straight buff. WG research buff. Robo + obs buff. + Shield battaries. + Chronoboost.
Stop trolling terrans. Please. Go and think about or i'll call a moderator to lock you up.
Ooh, I want to see that! Do it, please!
Anyway, according to sc2 wiki the Blink research time is 121. This wasn't buffed and this is the main delay in the build as this is the slowest thing in the chain. This doesn't change with the price and this doesn't affect WG research time as WG research time affects Stalkers without blink. If my memory is still on point we're talking about -50 gas buff and faster observer in this thing. Protoss players usually are gas starved, not mineral starved so the mineral price is debatable. In theory Protoss can get some units to defend proxy shield batteries or to get robo faster, but it won't hit faster then before because the slowest time is on the blink research. If we're talking about designated blink all in builds you don't delay TC, do you? And you start blink as soon as the TC is finished, don't you? Therefore this doesn't affect the timing.
And most - if anything - in the end it all comes down to the map design, because it needs to be possible on the map pool
If anything is wrong we can talk about speed observer which will be nearly impossible to kill but I still doubt this will affect the build similarly as in HOTS where the map design and MSC both made it almost an auto-win button.
So we have : 1 : TvP macro unplayable, so every terran all-in ? => let's nerf terrran all-ins and buff protoss macro. (blink, obs speed, WG, robo cost).
I don't know if i'am alone, but in mid-game macro play, protoss having very good invisible vision (+blink+recall, i.e the means to sanction terran muti-front) and terran playing in the dark already seem to be an issue for me. So yep lets super buff the obs...
2 : TvZ macro very hard in bio play, so every terran try to mech his way ? => let's drunk buff ultralisk (no role vs mech) and make it totally OP vs bio.
The issue with late-game bio TvZ, solved by some modern mechs plays, is mobility. When one need to be off creep + control the ghosts sitting in a safe place + sieged libs + perfect army control + no surround + some simcity to plainly win a fight, one is very immobile, and not only cannot cross the map on-creep but it is becoming very hard to protect (and move between) 5th+6th+7th etc ( depending on the map layout )
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
You do the exact same thing as before because it doesn't hit any earlier.
Cyclone nerf it's a straight buff. WG research buff. Robo + obs buff. + Shield battaries. + Chronoboost.
Stop trolling terrans. Please. Go and think about or i'll call a moderator to lock you up.
Ooh, I want to see that! Do it, please!
Anyway, according to sc2 wiki the Blink research time is 121. This wasn't buffed and this is the main delay in the build as this is the slowest thing in the chain. This doesn't change with the price and this doesn't affect WG research time as WG research time affects Stalkers without blink. If my memory is still on point we're talking about -50 gas buff and faster observer in this thing. Protoss players usually are gas starved, not mineral starved so the mineral price is debatable. In theory Protoss can get some units to defend proxy shield batteries or to get robo faster, but it won't hit faster then before because the slowest time is on the blink research. If we're talking about designated blink all in builds you don't delay TC, do you? And you start blink as soon as the TC is finished, don't you? Therefore this doesn't affect the timing.
And most - if anything - in the end it all comes down to the map design, because it needs to be possible on the map pool
If anything is wrong we can talk about speed observer which will be nearly impossible to kill but I still doubt this will affect the build similarly as in HOTS where the map design and MSC both made it almost an auto-win button.
You're spot on. I didn't think these things needed to be spelled out. I guess I expect too much of people who balance whine.
1) If you're going cyclones vs a blink all-in you're likely going to die no matter the research time of mag field. You want tanks. 2) WG research time doesn't affect a blink all-in. WG is long done when a blink all-in hits. 3) Robo and obs stuff are tiny buffs that don't really affect the build itself. Maybe you can more easily save observers from poorly executed scans now, or sustain pressure by more quickly reinforcing a sniped observer. That's about it. A robo being 50 minerals cheaper has near zero impact on a blink all-in. 4) Shield batteries aren't being changed. 5) Chronoboost isn't being changed. 6) As you said above, blink already starts as soon as a twilight council is done, and blink research time isn't being touched, so blink finishes at the exact same time as before, regardless of the cost reduction. You'll have your robotics facility or an additional stalker earlier. This likely makes blink openers a little safer, but again has very minimal impact on an actual blink all-in.
On January 17 2019 18:38 DieuCure wrote: Nobody can explain rationally the blink and the observer buffs. Eventhe protoss didnt think about that kind of buff i'm sure.
The observer buff should be a minor research in robo IMO. I don't think it should be in the bay, but right from the start to have fast observers seems like a route to hell. It's invisible and flies, what else do they want?
Edit> something like 1 observer cost, 1 observer build time.
On January 17 2019 18:38 DieuCure wrote: Nobody can explain rationally the blink and the observer buffs. Eventhe protoss didnt think about that kind of buff i'm sure.
The observer buff should be a minor research in robo IMO. I don't think it should be in the bay, but right from the start to have fast observers seems like a route to hell. It's invisible and flies, what else do they want?
Edit> something like 1 observer cost, 1 observer build time.
I don't think the observer buff was really necessary, although it'll certainly help Protoss reactive play. You'll identify what your opponent is doing just a little bit faster. As detectors observers are really lackluster in a lot of scenarios because they're sniped so easily. Against lurkers or any sort of ghost/viking army it can get very difficult to maintain detection with observers if the opponent is good about sniping them. At full speed it might now be possible to save observers. It'll certainly be a useful change for Protoss, but maybe not one that was desperately needed.
On a tangent, I think a lot of people would happily get observer speed in midgame scenarios if it didn't require an otherwise pretty weak tech path in the robotics bay.
On January 17 2019 14:22 dummy1 wrote: There are all prerequisites to bring back blink stalkers all-in again. Not good. Ultralisk movement speed off creep it's a full load to go with mass ultra a-move. Not good. Nerf cyclone. Not good. It's a fragile cannon... already. Nydus Network/Nydus Worm buff. Not Good. Are we going to play cheese/all-in all year? It's seems like Team Balance had said, that they are want to balance late game. Where is it?
Except that blink all-ins fell out of favor due to the time it now takes to research, plus the additional requirement of a robo and warp prism for reinforcements. Making it slightly cheaper doesn't change that.
This will definitely affect in TvP. What terran is supposed to do with it. Sit on main?
You do the exact same thing as before because it doesn't hit any earlier.
Cyclone nerf it's a straight buff. WG research buff. Robo + obs buff. + Shield battaries. + Chronoboost.
Stop trolling terrans. Please. Go and think about or i'll call a moderator to lock you up.
Ooh, I want to see that! Do it, please!
Anyway, according to sc2 wiki the Blink research time is 121. This wasn't buffed and this is the main delay in the build as this is the slowest thing in the chain. This doesn't change with the price and this doesn't affect WG research time as WG research time affects Stalkers without blink. If my memory is still on point we're talking about -50 gas buff and faster observer in this thing. Protoss players usually are gas starved, not mineral starved so the mineral price is debatable. In theory Protoss can get some units to defend proxy shield batteries or to get robo faster, but it won't hit faster then before because the slowest time is on the blink research. If we're talking about designated blink all in builds you don't delay TC, do you? And you start blink as soon as the TC is finished, don't you? Therefore this doesn't affect the timing.
And most - if anything - in the end it all comes down to the map design, because it needs to be possible on the map pool
If anything is wrong we can talk about speed observer which will be nearly impossible to kill but I still doubt this will affect the build similarly as in HOTS where the map design and MSC both made it almost an auto-win button.
You're spot on. I didn't think these things needed to be spelled out. I guess I expect too much of people who balance whine.
1) If you're going cyclones vs a blink all-in you're likely going to die no matter the research time of mag field. You want tanks. 2) WG research time doesn't affect a blink all-in. WG is long done when a blink all-in hits. 3) Robo and obs stuff are tiny buffs that don't really affect the build itself. Maybe you can more easily save observers from poorly executed scans now, or sustain pressure by more quickly reinforcing a sniped observer. That's about it. A robo being 50 minerals cheaper has near zero impact on a blink all-in. 4) Shield batteries aren't being changed. 5) Chronoboost isn't being changed. 6) As you said above, blink already starts as soon as a twilight council is done, and blink research time isn't being touched, so blink finishes at the exact same time as before, regardless of the cost reduction. You'll have your robotics facility or an additional stalker earlier. This likely makes blink openers a little safer, but again has very minimal impact on an actual blink all-in.
Tbh maybe some new blink all-in build can become viable, like, eh, making the twilight before researching warpgate ? The straight buffed pressure is 2bases 4g / 3g stargate. No upgraded cyclone, faster WG. Maybe some 3g proxy-prism too.
It'll certainly be a useful change for Protoss, but maybe not one that was desperately needed.
A marine buff isnt one that is desperately needed, but it would be an useful change ...
It was absolutely not needed, and since you can f2 your obs and get more vision this buff is unbelievable. If it's hard to maintain detection with large detection and f2able observers nothing will help you, i dont know. Plus you have the oracle for that, protoss scout will just be even easier, snipe even harder, for no reason. If not because the oracle scout is too strong.
It'll certainly be a useful change for Protoss, but maybe not one that was desperately needed.
A marine buff isnt one that is desperately needed, but it would be an useful change ...
It was absolutely not needed, and since you can f2 your obs and get more vision this buff is unbelievable. If it's hard to maintain detection with large detection and f2able observers nothing will help you, i dont know. Plus you have the oracle for that, protoss scout will just be even easier, snipe even harder, for no reason. If not because the oracle scout is too strong.
Can you rewrite this for people like me? I didn't understand what you mean. No offense intended, I just get lost.
Yep for difficult-detection scenario (ie mainly lurkers and PvP mothership, ghosts/vikings being unseen since years), decent protoss always have oracles. (plus photons near nexus)
New obs seems way too strong vT, nearly unkillable.
In the same time, in more than half the maps, reapers can't even scout vs toss.
It'll certainly be a useful change for Protoss, but maybe not one that was desperately needed.
A marine buff isnt one that is desperately needed, but it would be an useful change ...
It was absolutely not needed, and since you can f2 your obs and get more vision this buff is unbelievable. If it's hard to maintain detection with large detection and f2able observers nothing will help you, i dont know. Plus you have the oracle for that, protoss scout will just be even easier, snipe even harder, for no reason. If not because the oracle scout is too strong.
Bit of a difference between buffing a pure scouting unit and the literal core unit of most Terran unit compositions. Silly comparison.
You're spot on that usually Protoss have oracles for that. But this is the point isn't it? They even state that in their post. They don't want oracles to be the clearly better alternative in every scenario.
So maybe it's the purpose of the oracle and not the obs, why would you need two very strong options ? Instead of one strong option and the other viable if you didnt get the unit on time.
So many years BC was worst unit in game, now see some play and get quick nerf.Nice job blizz, keep them only for cinematic.If BC cant make decent haras or kill few units with yamato, they just not wort his price and all pro can say u this.This nerf will be overkill.
obs are way more than a pure scouting unit imo. They are the best "spotter" units, and they spot units while the opponent doesn't know he is being spotted. Then charged medivacs gets blinked under and that's GG.
Drops disappearing from TvP after early-game isn't without reasons. (yes, it's not only buffed obs but also recall ). Btw we see more drops after an oracle play than after a robo opening, because at least, oracle let the opponent know he is being revealed.
On January 17 2019 19:24 xongnox wrote: obs are way more than a pure scouting unit imo. They are the best "spotter" units, and they spot units while the opponent doesn't know he is being spotted. Then charged medivacs gets blinked under and that's GG.
Drops disappearing from TvP after early-game isn't without reasons. (yes, it's not only buffed obs but also recall ). Btw we see more drops after an oracle play than after a robo opening, because at least, oracle let the opponent know he is being revealed.
On January 17 2019 19:24 xongnox wrote: obs are way more than a pure scouting unit imo. They are the best "spotter" units, and they spot units while the opponent doesn't know he is being spotted. Then charged medivacs gets blinked under and that's GG.
Drops disappearing from TvP after early-game isn't without reasons. (yes, it's not only buffed obs but also recall ). Btw we see more drops after an oracle play than after a robo opening, because at least, oracle let the opponent know he is being revealed.
This change doesn't affect that.
Maybe slightly - you can get obs into spotting positions a little more quickly, so you'll be prepared a bit earlier, and you'll be able to replace sniped obs a bit faster. But yeah, not the most impactful change in that regard.
Maybe they should reduce the energy cost of scans to balance the new obs, from purely an entertainment perspective, it's really not fun to play vs maphack (obs everywhere, creep everywhere) :DD, and then make concussive shell work on ultras while at it, because bio seems unplayable and mech/air transition 100% forced.
Jeez. I can't read and handle it anymore. I remember how Olli had tried to explain why is Zest the best and will smash Maru in GSL. And now... this. I'll better smash my head at the wall (a little bit)...
On January 17 2019 20:56 dummy1 wrote: Jeez. I can't read and handle it anymore. I remember how Olli had tried to explain why is Zest the best and will smash Maru in GSL. And now... this. I'll better smash my head at the wall (a little bit)...
On January 17 2019 20:35 IshinShishi wrote: Maybe they should reduce the energy cost of scans to balance the new obs, from purely an entertainment perspective, it's really not fun to play vs maphack (obs everywhere, creep everywhere) :DD, and then make concussive shell work on ultras while at it, because bio seems unplayable and mech/air transition 100% forced.
well. you boys complain about ultras being faster than stimed bio, but you never even think about (not even once), that ultralisks are the highest tech zerg can get and bio are starting units. it was ridiculous since WoL release that they are not viable against T1 units. in addition they are only viable with 3/3 upgrades + 2 ultraliskupgrades. it is safe to say that it is really hard to get there as zerg, how dare you even think about that such units shouldnt be able to crush t1 units? seriously.
With this change you will hopefully have to use units like thors do help killing ultralisks other than stutterstepping away with t1 only. so you actually have to fight and can not just run away.
------
warpgate buff: finally. on big maps, its way too easy for zergs to just be super greedy and get away with it. maybe even give protoss warpgate by default or sth. with the warp in mechanic being so slow nowadays this should be "a ok" to give protoss a chance to properly pressure the zerg even in the early game.
On January 17 2019 20:56 dummy1 wrote: Jeez. I can't read and handle it anymore. I remember how Olli had tried to explain why is Zest the best and will smash Maru in GSL. And now... this. I'll better smash my head at the wall (a little bit)...
That never happened. Not that it's relevant.
U did though persist to argue that post 4.0 stalkers werent going to be broken / werent broken / pls god werent broken...so a bit hard to listen to now. XD
On January 17 2019 20:56 dummy1 wrote: Jeez. I can't read and handle it anymore. I remember how Olli had tried to explain why is Zest the best and will smash Maru in GSL. And now... this. I'll better smash my head at the wall (a little bit)...
That never happened. Not that it's relevant.
U did though persist to argue that post 4.0 stalkers werent going to be broken / werent broken / pls god werent broken...so a bit hard to listen to now. XD
Gonna have to ask you to cite that please. I might have asked people to give it some time, which I think was perfectly reasonable. I certainly also remember myself saying that a marauder buff was a reasonable idea to counter better stalkers once it became obvious they were too strong at the time, and it was never explored before stalkers just got nerfed again.
Either way, I've made actual arguments as to why blink all-ins won't be affected much by these changes. Address the arguments instead of some image you have of me.
On January 17 2019 18:37 xongnox wrote: So we have : 1 : TvP macro unplayable, so every terran all-in ? => let's nerf terrran all-ins and buff protoss macro.
Terrans allin only because allins and proxy are strong af that's it. Also please tell me how tempest changes look like buffs to you.
On January 17 2019 20:35 IshinShishi wrote: Maybe they should reduce the energy cost of scans to balance the new obs, from purely an entertainment perspective, it's really not fun to play vs maphack (obs everywhere, creep everywhere) :DD, and then make concussive shell work on ultras while at it, because bio seems unplayable and mech/air transition 100% forced.
well. you boys complain about ultras being faster than stimed bio, but you never even think about (not even once), that ultralisks are the highest tech zerg can get and bio are starting units. it was ridiculous since WoL release that they are not viable against T1 units. in addition they are only viable with 3/3 upgrades + 2 ultraliskupgrades. it is safe to say that it is really hard to get there as zerg, how dare you even think about that such units shouldnt be able to crush t1 units? seriously.
With this change you will hopefully have to use units like thors do help killing ultralisks other than stutterstepping away with t1 only. so you actually have to fight and can not just run away.
------
warpgate buff: finally. on big maps, its way too easy for zergs to just be super greedy and get away with it. maybe even give protoss warpgate by default or sth. with the warp in mechanic being so slow nowadays this should be "a ok" to give protoss a chance to properly pressure the zerg even in the early game.
I think this is one of the arguments that triggers me the most and the easiest way to spot below diamonds players. I don't even know what to start with.
Maybe if you really think that a terran bio army, fully upgraded (so, 3/3, stim, shield and so on) heavily supported by medivacs, tanks (or widow mines) is a T1 army, then it's even worse than I thought. We can even add that starcraft isn't all about the tiers but about the counters, so technically all units can counter an other in a specific situation. It's not a tier based game. And when it is, well, nobody likes it, when for example the protoss max out on a deathball or on skytoss and you are mostly going to lose because this army comp is very hard to counter. I could even say that if you think it's normal for ultralisks to completely destroy the bio comp of the terran player, then I would like to have a huge buff on thors to make them able to counters lings, after all, lings are T1 units and are countering my T3 unit. And if possible, buff the bc aswell because I don't understand how it is possible for queens to counter it, they are T1 units aswell right ?
Enough of this, bio is already doing pretty bad in lategame against zerg, and well, the ultralisk super buff was all but needed. It's not like zerg was getting wrecked all the time in lategame against bio.
What they buffed OBSERVERS?? TVP literally unplayable already and now this? Blizz plz stop killing Terrans I don't think their fragile mentality could take this hit.
On January 17 2019 19:24 xongnox wrote: obs are way more than a pure scouting unit imo. They are the best "spotter" units, and they spot units while the opponent doesn't know he is being spotted. Then charged medivacs gets blinked under and that's GG.
Drops disappearing from TvP after early-game isn't without reasons. (yes, it's not only buffed obs but also recall ). Btw we see more drops after an oracle play than after a robo opening, because at least, oracle let the opponent know he is being revealed.
This change doesn't affect that.
Obs are faster in position, good protoss frequently change obs position a bit (for example to cut the drop path after terran move back ), and obs will be harder to kill now = more obs alive. So maybe not as much as an impact as hold-position obs, but still significant.
Seems like new balance team members play protoss with 80 APM thus babysit "quality of life" change for toss, recompensing F2 players who don't even use control groups (auto WP morph, obs not taken away by f2), while dgaf about terrans players. Just play like Maru, eh.
If this patch goes live we should put TvP on strike and free-quit every 1v1 ladder game vs toss. Toss players will loose nothing, because getting all-ined every single game not that fun too.
I don't understand why they want to units like the observer and overseer into F2 friendly units and make the style of A-Moving without paying attention to a unit or microing it easier (The zealot for the most part, and the Ultralisk now) While nerfing options of early gameplay for Terran the last spot we are strong in vs protoss and buffing the macro engine of protoss in the mid and late game. I feel like if they want to address some of Terran's issues they can change values on units like the liberator or the widow mine. Giving the liberator +5 attack will make +2 +2 +1 pushes a lot better and reward players who decide to hit liberator range timings or +2 +2 timings this also gives us a powerful push to punish protoss who go into late game tier tech too greedily similar to how we use our +2 +2 pushes in TvZ to attack the zerg right before hive is completed or kill them if they went into hive too quickly. Furthermore (This one is probably controversial) they could also add more damage to the shield damage of mines to make dealing with units such as zealots or phoenixes easier without indirectly making them stronger vs units in the Zerg army. Also, do they really need to make the Ultralisks a unit that zerg can a move or look away from without babysitting at all??? How is it fair that we have to dedicate attention to microing against that unit whereas they can literally just watch it and not have to do anything whatsoever, also why change the thor? There is simply no reason to change the thors range if anything I would say give the thor back its anti-air splash by the 0.1 "OR" Give it back the extra +1 armor (This brings back double thor drop) but you cannot give us both. Changing range just makes the thor better vs the broodlord which it really does not need, we have other units for countering the broodlord. The two most logical changes in this patch so far in my personal opinion are the Tempest nerf (It needed to happen) and the Oracle tag change (Lot of great PvP changes with the Sentry's change). I don't think obs needs a speed buff. People can research the speed upgrade if they really need it to get around quicker and if its for scouting I have seen a lot of people go for a sentry and use hallucination to scout which I think is a good direction for scouting on tosses side to go as you can still deny a hallucination scout but it is still reliable.
So disappointed with this patch. It looks like they fully adopted MOBA design philosophy and make changes for the sake of change not having a clear vision of what they are trying to achieve. At the same time ignoring apparent problems such as Swarm hosts.
On January 17 2019 12:19 Thaniri wrote: Adept build time increased by 3 seconds.
I will be very amused as a low master Terran player by all the players who memorized their build orders to get an adept out exactly when the scouting reaper arrives have 3 seconds of terror before they figure out they need to adjust.
We just have to go cyber before nexus now. I think its a fantastic change, because 1) no longer able to cancel terran CC unless terran puts it down late and 2) by forcing cyber before nexus AND getting rid of the current reason to do so, Toss economy slightly delayed and MAY possibly help the eco balance of the matchup to become more even.
I still think toss will be able to get a third faster than the terran, but so far I think this change was good.
Too bad they incentivized me to just proxy robo blink allin or 3 gate stalker warp prism PvT every game now.
What is going on here, long time since I read such heavy handed patch notes. Maybe let the meta develop, this is way too early and too forced!
- For "insert random subjective reason here" we want to stargates to be used less. Lets nerf the Oracle, especially against Stalkers in pvp while also making blink cheaper, warpgate come faster and robo facility cheaper.
- For "insert random subjective reason here" we want zerg players to use building X to do Y. So lets buff building X it becomes easier to and smoother to do Y.
Please, why, in the protoss example 1, or maybe 2 top of those changes should be considered and tested, all of them is is rediculous. Stop trying to make us play like you want us to play, why can't the meta evolve through smaller lighter changes over time.
In the zerg example you do the same thing, if we want to use nydus like that we can, its not bad its pretty good actually. Are you trying to make it so strong that we are forced to use it? Why manipulate the balance just to get a certain building used in a certain way because of Blizzard whims.
i'll never in my life understand people who complain about "ultra a-move" or any melee unit a-moving. you can't micro melee units to move faster (except manual activation on zealot charge), so what am i supposed to do with them? select individual zerglings and dance them just to increase my APM? it's so stupidly easy to throw games and lose horribly by mismanaging melee units...
On January 18 2019 02:42 brickrd wrote: i'll never in my life understand people who complain about "ultra a-move" or any melee unit a-moving. you can't micro melee units to move faster (except manual activation on zealot charge), so what am i supposed to do with them? select individual zerglings and dance them just to increase my APM? it's so stupidly easy to throw games and lose horribly by mismanaging melee units...
you can :
- mix them in a composition that make sense (i.e not only ultra, for example) - prepare your army position and concave to take a good fight.
If you need some example, even if a bit outdated, watch Stephano glory days when he played ling/infestors/ultra (some very good series vs Polt come to mind). He was Maybe the first to consistently plays very good with ultras.
Btw ling/bane generally don't amove vs terran (else they take very bad focus and optimize AoE damage), you pre-split and move them before a-moving.
Is it normal for a developer to make changes to a game because they want to control what units people make and what strategies people use, as opposed to basing it on what they think is overpowered/underpowered?
I think nobody on the balance team plays Terran. But if they find somebody and want to take this mad scientist approach to Terran, here are some units that could be better.
1. Hellbat - more armor or some kind of speed/dash rework 2. Viking - either make them a definite solid investment for general AA or give them some kind vs. ground bonus that isn't so niche. 3. Raven - allow them to be produced off of a Starport with no addon, or from a Factory with Techlab. 4. Reaper - give them an upgrade that restores the vs. building grenade or where they lose cliffjump but become tanky to add them to a bio army.
On January 18 2019 02:54 Jealous wrote: Is it normal for a developer to make changes to a game because they want to control what units people make and what strategies people use, as opposed to basing it on what they think is overpowered/underpowered?
It is, but then the said developer may end with empty servers if said developer don't pay attention to what the players who play the game wants
As a terran I don't think the protoss changes are necessarily broken (albeit they do have the potential to be) but the combination of them, terran nerfs and not any compensatory buffs is baffling.
I really think they should also buff cyclone for the early game, even if mag field was too strong (was it really?) cyclone being changed to what it is was made to nerf proxy while strengtening defensive play, well they nerfed proxy, again, where is the defensive strenght?
I understand that terran proxy wasnt a good meta but they just shafted terran posibilities, while keeping everything else the same.
I don't think Blizz wont introduce more possible changes next week I just wonder why not announcing some of them here, ANYTHING would've worked otherwise it feels like they don't care.
I just want to say that any mech or tech opener with Terran in TvP is dead with these changes. If you dont rush stim and medivacs out, you will die every game to 6 gate blink stalker all-in.
I don't have strong opinion on most of the changes (except the Ultralisk buff lol) but it feels like protoss keeps getting revamped the most out of every race. It's amazing how Stats has stayed at the top for all this time considering how much protoss keeps changing every year.
I don't like the direction we are going with this frequency of big updates/redesigns, imo all it does is benefit those players (pros) who effectively thrive in the chaos. I understand that this was a feedback update, but there should be more time between these nonetheless.
Also the fact that Ultras can run faster off-creep than stimmed bio seems absurd...
Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
So many people saying "the changes don't make sense". Just because you don't understand the changes doesn't mean they are bad, you just are ignorant. People are so short-sighted and only think about changes for their matchups, and with there being no big starcraft games and no gsl right now, everyone thinks they are some balance genius when in reality their pool of knowledge of the most recent patch probably is from a few of their personal games.
Overall the changes are good, I'm glad they are taking changes intro their own hands instead of just listening to every balance whine thread posted on reddit, and using "balance ideas" from there.
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Yeah because bio doesn't need medivacs or factory units right.
I'm mostly worried about the message this patch sends at this point. The way many of these changes are phrased makes it seem like they're decided by only looking at 1 or at most 2 match-ups. Like for the thor, they talk about TvP and TvT but no word on how this is first and foremost a buff against broods. For half the Protoss changes they only focus on PvZ and the stargate PvP meta.
And since we didn't hear about any of this before this week, it comes so out of left field I imagine they did at most internal testing, which is nowhere near the pro level. But it's still meant to go live next week.
I'm mostly worried about the message this patch sends at this point.
I take no pleasure in being pessimistic, but it really seems like people who don't know what they're doing, and don't know what they're talking about, are making and presenting these changes. The goal is to create the illusion of support vitality, when in fact the changes are mostly arbitrary but dramatic enough to draw "attention" and lure prospective players and/or casuals onto the ladder.
Since 2014's height of blink all-ins and even post-Billy The Marine, people have been saying that SC2 has been back-burnered. I always read those comments and thought, "Nah." Now, it truly feels like it. The patches aren't in service of balance: They're in service of patches-as-episodic events that ensure players "keep current on the meta."
TLDR: Balance patches are the new Mods/DLC a la Diablo's season changes.
I'm mostly worried about the message this patch sends at this point.
I take no pleasure in being pessimistic, but it really seems like people who don't know what they're doing, and don't know what they're talking about, are making and presenting these changes. The goal is to create the illusion of support vitality, when in fact the changes are mostly arbitrary but dramatic enough to draw "attention" and lure prospective players and/or casuals onto the ladder.
Since 2014's height of blink all-ins and even post-Billy The Marine, people have been saying that SC2 has been back-burnered. I always read those comments and thought, "Nah." Now, it truly feels like it. The patches aren't in service of balance: They're in service of patches-as-episodic events that ensure players "keep current on the meta."
TLDR: Balance patches are the new Mods/DLC a la Diablo's season changes.
you sound paranoid/crazy. The balance team gives reasons for every change.
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Fully upgraded army with supports of medivacs/tanks/WM/liberators is for sure only coming from one building and considered T1
Maybe you should actually first learn how the game works before trying to taunt terran players right ?
On January 18 2019 05:55 youngjiddle wrote: So many people saying "the changes don't make sense". Just because you don't understand the changes doesn't mean they are bad, you just are ignorant. People are so short-sighted and only think about changes for their matchups, and with there being no big starcraft games and no gsl right now, everyone thinks they are some balance genius when in reality their pool of knowledge of the most recent patch probably is from a few of their personal games.
Overall the changes are good, I'm glad they are taking changes intro their own hands instead of just listening to every balance whine thread posted on reddit, and using "balance ideas" from there.
Not sure if I like that nydus change though.
I'm glad there is a rick and morty fan !
And no, the best change (oracle) doesnt come from their brains but from Morrow's, you are just ignorant.
I'll take an active patching over more broodlord infestor "its fine, the meta just needs to develop" nonsense when there are things that just outright make the game look bad regardless of if you play it or not. If a couple of early timings get a little bet tougher to hold but it means more oportunities to fight broodlord viper infestor or protoss deathballs with tempest support you can bet your ass I'll support that dev over DK. I'm not saying 11 range 250mm cannons are the end of all problems for terran in the lategame, but It was a smart targeted change on a unit that barely sees any action on all matchups.
Remember, the alternative is they can just say "fuck it, give them the hots treatment" and for what its worth... after quiting during hots and recently coming back, the game for me is in the best state it has ever been.
I'm mostly worried about the message this patch sends at this point.
I take no pleasure in being pessimistic, but it really seems like people who don't know what they're doing, and don't know what they're talking about, are making and presenting these changes. The goal is to create the illusion of support vitality, when in fact the changes are mostly arbitrary but dramatic enough to draw "attention" and lure prospective players and/or casuals onto the ladder.
Since 2014's height of blink all-ins and even post-Billy The Marine, people have been saying that SC2 has been back-burnered. I always read those comments and thought, "Nah." Now, it truly feels like it. The patches aren't in service of balance: They're in service of patches-as-episodic events that ensure players "keep current on the meta."
TLDR: Balance patches are the new Mods/DLC a la Diablo's season changes.
you sound paranoid/crazy. The balance team gives reasons for every change.
"We changed the disruptor because it leads to too many sudden game-ending moments" -"we changed it back because we dont like the new version either"
"We buff thors as a lategame counter to protoss air"
"We buff blink cost and warpgate research time for PvZ. Those changes won't matter for TvP so it's not affected"
"We don't like how Nydus works so we do a random change to it every patch and hope it works better"
Really great reasons they present. Must be a genius at work.
On January 18 2019 06:52 Doko wrote: Remember, the alternative is they can just say "fuck it, give them the hots treatment" and for what its worth... after quiting during hots and recently coming back, the game for me is in the best state it has ever been.
This is the #1 thing to keep in mind. For all the small issues in the game right now, it's nothing compared to how bad it was in the past. I dare you all to go back and watch SC2 in the infestor/broodlord era, or just as bad, the HOTS swarmhost era, and tell me the game is as bad as back then. I've been watching old GSL while I exercise and it's shocking how bad some of the matchups were back then. I'm currently on 2014 season 1 and I recently watched a 2 Protoss, 2 Zerg group where every PvZ that wasn't the Protoss all-inning before Zerg could saturate their third was a swarmhost game (except one game where solar went both spire and infestation pit and faked swarmhosts into mass muta). They're pretty tough to watch at times. One was a half hour game on Habitation Station where DRG basically parked 28 swarm hosts in the middle of the map and HerO had to micro his heart out non-stop just to stay alive while DRG was floating 3k gas and making static defence everywhere while swarmhosts were basically on autopilot sending locusts to HerO's third. ZvZ was horrid too, just roach wars. PvP was a game of chicken for who expanded first since the expander would usually lose.
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Fully upgraded army with supports of medivacs/tanks/WM/liberators is for sure only coming from one building and considered T1
Maybe you should actually first learn how the game works before trying to taunt terran players right ?
I'm mostly worried about the message this patch sends at this point.
I take no pleasure in being pessimistic, but it really seems like people who don't know what they're doing, and don't know what they're talking about, are making and presenting these changes. The goal is to create the illusion of support vitality, when in fact the changes are mostly arbitrary but dramatic enough to draw "attention" and lure prospective players and/or casuals onto the ladder.
Since 2014's height of blink all-ins and even post-Billy The Marine, people have been saying that SC2 has been back-burnered. I always read those comments and thought, "Nah." Now, it truly feels like it. The patches aren't in service of balance: They're in service of patches-as-episodic events that ensure players "keep current on the meta."
TLDR: Balance patches are the new Mods/DLC a la Diablo's season changes.
you sound paranoid/crazy. The balance team gives reasons for every change.
"We changed the disruptor because it leads to too many sudden game-ending moments" -"we changed it back because we dont like the new version either"
"We buff thors as a lategame counter to protoss air"
"We buff blink cost and warpgate research time for PvZ. Those changes won't matter for TvP so it's not affected"
"We don't like how Nydus works so we do a random change to it every patch and hope it works better"
Really great reasons they present. Must be a genius at work.
you really can give a reason to hate everything blizzard does, right?
you realize there is no other games that comments on balance, they just make changes.
imagine if this was league of legends where they buff and nerf based on monetary gain.
On January 18 2019 06:18 Arden wrote: TLDR: Balance patches are the new Mods/DLC a la Diablo's season changes.
As much as I wish the Diablo team put more effort into new, cool, fun things each season, they've been doing a pretty good job at making a wider variety of fun builds for each class closer in power to the S and A tier builds, and most of their changes make a lot of sense to the majority of players who care about the variety of builds that can reach those highest tiers of play. In that regard, this patch feels nothing like D3 seasons.
However, this patch absolutely feels like a big step towards what the majority (from what I see) of SC2 players don't want from patches, which are long lists of changes to several aspects of the game at a time when players are still in the process of figuring out the last set of very, very changes and in the middle of the first chunk of the tournament season and when everyone is getting new ladder maps. It's a mess covering up other messes, at least that's how it feels to me.
There is a fine line between patching the game too often and too rarely, of course. Some games patch very frequently, some games add new content regularly, other competitive games might patch once a year (or decade). SC2 needs a little bit of everything, but I agree with a lot of other people that the 1v1 aspect of the game and the players who play that mode are better off with far fewer lengthy patches, more specific and "grokkable" short patches, and, especially for lengthy patches like this one, to make changes after big tournaments except in extreme cases where the players/devs see a blatant issue that they can fix in a small and simple way.
I appreciate some of the transparency with the changes, but that doesn't make this patch feel like less of a mess to me and, apparently, a lot of other people.
I feel that when Protoss is buffed in order to enhance PvZ, Terran will suffer more than Zerg; when some Terran units are buffed against Protoss, it may have more impact on TvZ, and so on.
My problem with the constant balance as a philosophy is that it makes it less likely for new builds to develop that counter existing builds. If Broodwar were balanced after BIsu vs Savior MSL final, there's a good chance that they would nerf the corsair, which would prevent builds like 5-6 hatch hydra from developing. Zergs would probably still play Savior 4 hatch lair style and the meta would be a lot more static. Of course they could change balance in order to forcibly change the meta and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Overall, I'm not against occasional minor balance changes but I don't really like the idea of a major year end patch or a patch that greatly affects the viability of a certain build.
2017 was a terrible year, they then changed game ending moments by changing disruptors, burrow fungal, and widowmines; to nerf game ending moments. They also changed shoot while moving ferrari cyclones because they feel too one sided for the micro battle. And theyre too easy to control imo. Whats easier than a-move? Move command shoot while moving.
2018 they go back on their design goals and bring back game ending moments by reverting disruptors and widowmines mostly ( they make faster than in 2017 but need drilling claws to be invisible, which makes them better overall than ever, but worse in early drops). They also bring back shoot while moving cyclones, make tempest super fast ( who thought this would be good?) and make the most imba unit against zerg ever seen, the new battle cruisers.
2018 was the best year ever for sc2, and they decide to go back to 2017, which was terrible, with even worse changes?
Did they secretly change balance team recently? Or is their balance team literally contradicting themselves and doing the opposite of what they told us they wanted?
This balance team is horrible, im sorry but it seems they have no vision or goals and just do random changes.
On January 18 2019 15:41 Snakestyle11 wrote: 2017 was a terrible year, they then changed game ending moments by changing disruptors, burrow fungal, and widowmines; to nerf game ending moments. They also changed shoot while moving ferrari cyclones because they feel too one sided for the micro battle. And theyre too easy to control imo. Whats easier than a-move? Move command shoot while moving.
2018 they go back on their design goals and bring back game ending moments by reverting disruptors and widowmines mostly ( they make faster than in 2017 but need drilling claws to be invisible, which makes them better overall than ever, but worse in early drops). They also bring back shoot while moving cyclones, make tempest super fast ( who thought this would be good?) and make the most imba unit against zerg ever seen, the new battle cruisers.
2018 was the best year ever for sc2, and they decide to go back to 2017, which was terrible, with even worse changes?
Did they secretly change balance team recently? Or is their balance team literally contradicting themselves and doing the opposite of what they told us they wanted?
This balance team is horrible, im sorry but it seems they have no vision or goals and just do random changes.
lol, I personally liked 2017 the most. But I'm an INnoVation, Stats and Dark fan so that's probably why.
Edit: On a more substantive note, I feel like 2018's games felt shorter and I personally prefer watching longer games. Not to take anything away from 2018 but I also enjoyed the SSL in 2017 a lot so I think that made a big difference in my perception of it. I also liked that Maru and Serral didn't win everything lol.
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Fully upgraded army with supports of medivacs/tanks/WM/liberators is for sure only coming from one building and considered T1
Maybe you should actually first learn how the game works before trying to taunt terran players right ?
Or maybe you guys should learn to MECH it happen
The more funny part with this argument, beside late-game bio being in fact high-tech (medivacs, 3/3, ghost, (upgraded)libs, upgraded mines, etc. ), and beside the fact the same situation actually happens in every MU (cracklings harcounter thors, banes counter ghosts, zelots do stuff late-game, etc. ), is when terrans have something else than bio that woks late-game (warhouds, cyclones, mass libs, mass raven, etc, etc ), everyone whine to death and it get nerfed to ground.
Except under-gold players who struggles to hold some marines with stim, everyone decent knows instinctively SC2 is at best when we see beautiful, multi-tasking, super high skill ceiling, micro intensive, bio play. SC2 mech is nearly always lame, either camping into 1 timing or some ridiculous high-mobility F2 play. Exception are few. (Marus's speedshee/cyclone, some Gumi plays, etc. )
On January 18 2019 14:21 Anc13nt wrote: My problem with the constant balance as a philosophy is that it makes it less likely for new builds to develop that counter existing builds. If Broodwar were balanced after BIsu vs Savior MSL final, there's a good chance that they would nerf the corsair, which would prevent builds like 5-6 hatch hydra from developing. Zergs would probably still play Savior 4 hatch lair style and the meta would be a lot more static. Of course they could change balance in order to forcibly change the meta and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Overall, I'm not against occasional minor balance changes but I don't really like the idea of a major year end patch or a patch that greatly affects the viability of a certain build.
Agreed, it's the LoL patch syndrome where the players aren't being pushed to figure out a counter to an effective strategy because they can just say it's OP.
Bio keeps getting weaker and weaker because of mech, I really don't get it. Bio is nearly playable atm, the matchup is +-50% because BC and cyclone/hellion is op af, so Blizzard nerf bio through the ultra buff, I don't think they play their game ( same for the tl posters there, if you say that bio is t1, it s because you don't know anything about this game ). Even though bio is under 50% (I'm 100% confident about it).
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Fully upgraded army with supports of medivacs/tanks/WM/liberators is for sure only coming from one building and considered T1
Maybe you should actually first learn how the game works before trying to taunt terran players right ?
Or maybe you guys should learn to MECH it happen
The more funny part with this argument, beside late-game bio being in fact high-tech (medivacs, 3/3, ghost, (upgraded)libs, upgraded mines, etc. ), and beside the fact the same situation actually happens in every MU (cracklings harcounter thors, banes counter ghosts, zelots do stuff late-game, etc. ), is when terrans have something else than bio that woks late-game (warhouds, cyclones, mass libs, mass raven, etc, etc ), everyone whine to death and it get nerfed to ground.
Except under-gold players who struggles to hold some marines with stim, everyone decent knows instinctively SC2 is at best when we see beautiful, multi-tasking, super high skill ceiling, micro intensive, bio play. SC2 mech is nearly always lame, either camping into 1 timing or some ridiculous high-mobility F2 play. Exception are few. (Marus's speedshee/cyclone, some Gumi plays, etc. )
Naming warhounds just shows how much you played back then. Warhounds was, literally, the only unit, that would ALONE win any early game, mid game or late game battle. It was the definition of FUBAR. It's not our problem Blizzard didn't do the proper balancing and right dismissed the unit. But c'mon, that unit was heavily broken and that's where the whine was at a proper place.
There was a reason why warhound returned to the game during April 1st
On January 18 2019 21:32 bObA wrote: Imo they really buff protoss too much with Blink, stalkers, warpgate, robo bay. Cannot understand that
let's recap the last year. Rogue, Serral, Maru. They probably feel the need! The need for speed a Protoss champion
In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
I think phoenix is a bit overpowered against ground army e.g. phoenixes vs stalkers. I would suggest to either increase graviton beam cost to 75 energy or decrease initial energy to 25 or alike this may resolve issues seeing air vs air constantly.
I don't know what to think of these changes. Playing ZvT (M3) is really strange atm. I'm really struggling against BC / hellbat / cylone stuff, but if a terran goes bio, I'm almost always winning. Turtle mech still is a thing, but it has always been. It's a war of attrition with ever changing details.
Does Blizzard ask pro gamers to test changes before community feedback updates? It seems that they change too many things at once and that should be such an obvious mistake to make for balance designers, so there has to be a good reason, right?
Testing changes is for the most part pointless in a game with starcraft's complexity, something completely OP might be totally worthless 30 seconds later and there are too many different scenarios to test and judge if its over the top or not. Better to paralelize the process with people and if something breaks the game act reasonably quickly and turn it down a little. There is also hardly any incentive for the pros to test things when they are constantly focusing on winning money of the live version.
On January 18 2019 05:39 yht9657 wrote: Personally I don't understand most of these changes, the warp gate and blink change don't make sense. But it's always fun to see a few Terran players crying for not being able to counter other races' entire tech tree with one certain production building for some reason
Fully upgraded army with supports of medivacs/tanks/WM/liberators is for sure only coming from one building and considered T1
Maybe you should actually first learn how the game works before trying to taunt terran players right ?
Or maybe you guys should learn to MECH it happen
The more funny part with this argument, beside late-game bio being in fact high-tech (medivacs, 3/3, ghost, (upgraded)libs, upgraded mines, etc. ), and beside the fact the same situation actually happens in every MU (cracklings harcounter thors, banes counter ghosts, zelots do stuff late-game, etc. ), is when terrans have something else than bio that woks late-game (warhouds, cyclones, mass libs, mass raven, etc, etc ), everyone whine to death and it get nerfed to ground.
Except under-gold players who struggles to hold some marines with stim, everyone decent knows instinctively SC2 is at best when we see beautiful, multi-tasking, super high skill ceiling, micro intensive, bio play. SC2 mech is nearly always lame, either camping into 1 timing or some ridiculous high-mobility F2 play. Exception are few. (Marus's speedshee/cyclone, some Gumi plays, etc. )
Naming warhounds just shows how much you played back then. Warhounds was, literally, the only unit, that would ALONE win any early game, mid game or late game battle. It was the definition of FUBAR. It's not our problem Blizzard didn't do the proper balancing and right dismissed the unit. But c'mon, that unit was heavily broken and that's where the whine was at a proper place.
There was a reason why warhound returned to the game during April 1st
warhound was stupid and OP and low skill af and un-terran, i agree 100%. FYI it was included in the "ridiculous high-mobility F2 play". I was simply citing historical non-bio play that worked in terran. And yep, nine times out of ten, it was garbage design. so maybe we should accept SC2 terran is mainly bio play, and it is for the best. Since years now we have this "nerf bio, buff non-bio" strategy to balance T and the result is not good.
Btw i play a lot and near continuously since WoL release, thanks.
On January 20 2019 04:13 SC-Shield wrote: Does Blizzard ask pro gamers to test changes before community feedback updates? It seems that they change too many things at once and that should be such an obvious mistake to make for balance designers, so there has to be a good reason, right?
Too many drinks after a bad ladder day explains many things.
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
Protoss doesn't have the ability to simply place a proxy pylon and warp-in as fast as they used to anymore, so super-early Blink strategies should not happen too often, I presume, maybe some crazy proxy Warpgate/Robo all-ins, 6/7 gate 2 base all-ins could hit a bit faster, but in this case you'd have plenty of time to scout and prepare accordingly.
Yet, the way I see it this whole shift of TvP momentum in LotV should not have happened, at all. Giving Protoss the upper hand in expansion speed/worker production, while still somewhat maintaining their diverse aggressive potential is just bullshit and a huge design mistake imo.
The inherent order always has been:
Z - cheapest units, swarmy nature, fastest expansion speed
T - average unit costs, most flexible playstyles, average expansion speed
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
Now the problem with modern TvP is that Terran is still on a timer, as a traditional Terran lategame army simply cannot compete with an ultimate Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight (the dreaded 200/200 timing).
But not removing the 'simply don't let Protoss get there' label from the match-up while at the same time removing the midgame advantage Terran could achieve by out-expanding Protoss and hitting a good timing on 2 or 3 bases is just nuts, I mean, when nowadays Terran is shoehorned into proxy cheese every game just to be on even footing reaching for the midgame, there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the match-up.
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
Do not get how Zergs are not nerfed ... The TVZ is broken , please Blizzard nerf creep and the queens , a Zerg does not have to micro anymore ... This is getting boring ...
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
Adept vs Terran was insane
BiovZ is broken , but since mech is op they buff z vbio, don't ask why, it's pretty clear that they are clueless now I think.
On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?).
Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones?
I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?).
Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones?
I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist.
Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame.
That's my view, but I'm no pro.
What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though.
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?).
Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones?
I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist.
Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame.
That's my view, but I'm no pro.
What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though.
In all honesty, even if it was THAT impactful (which i doubt, but may be wrong). "Tank/cyclone/bunshee/you name it" pushes took stim agression spot and did it with great success.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff zealot charge So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?).
Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones?
I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist.
Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame.
That's my view, but I'm no pro.
What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though.
In all honesty, even if it was THAT impactful (which i doubt, but may be wrong). "Tank/cyclone/bunshee/you name it" pushes took stim agression spot and did it with great success.
But it's not a bio opening on which you build. maybe the tank opening is.
I don't know, that's how I see the game and that's what was threating before and isn't now. If it would have the desired impact - cannot tell, I'm nowhere near to know it.
On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
Happy cake-day!
If you look at the history of SC2, it's very true, though - up until LotV Protoss has been the most defensive race when opting for a macro-oriented game and the fact that this has changed is what I find disturbing balance-wise.
On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote: I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask. Dear Terrans. When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
that's not true there were periods in LotV when the matchup was even terran favored (after the tank buff). For most of 2016 and 2017 terrans were pretty okay playing macro against protoss with strong bio liberator pushes, only after the MSC removal and the changes to "balance" it out (recall, widow mine cloak removal, chronoboost change, shield batteries, Collossus buff) the matchup became this lopsided
On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
well a top quality player should never lose to a master player under 5700 mmr. Its to easy to do one of the 100 allins that protoss have. Naturally turtle race??? youre joking? its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
I just read these changes and I'm honestly flabbergasted. It almost feels like a joke to me. I am really sad because I was already feeling extremely frustrated with the TvP match up in general and with TvZ lategame and I don't really like the mirror much anyways, so the fact that they decide to make it worse doesn't really make me happy.
I get that BC rushes might be a little bit strong against zerg, but it's a serious investment that can be scouted with an overlord and should just lose to the zerg getting a few corruptors right? The cyclone change makes me pretty sad as magfield accelerator was also used for macro TvP builds.. It's the only thing in the Terran arsenal which allows you to put on serious pressure without stim, so that's heavily nerfed now (especially since those builds relied on swapping the factory and rax and starting stim on the same techlab). The thor range buff is of course ridiculous as thors are just useless units.
The ultra buff makes no sense to me. Ultras are honestly already pretty good. They're not the jack of all trades and they're no broodlords, but they're pretty good. The reason people don't make them is because broodlords are almost a win button. Terran can't really push against broodlords unless they're very far ahead and is forced to just turtle. If they're even with the zerg broodlords usually straight up win the game if the zerg can get there. Ultralisks are usually the bridge to Broodlords in rough games. If you buff these units to the point where they are also viable, you're indirectly buffing broodlords too. If the Terran player has to be able to deal with tech switches into both ultras and broodlords at any time both those units will be stronger because the terran player can't effectively counter them.
Meanwhile Protoss is just getting a bunch of buffs. Why do observers need a straight up buff anyways. The robo bay cost change will make immortal allins much scarier. Maybe this won't directly affect macro play but changes like that always indirectly matter. I'm also afraid that the changes to blink/robo will make it possible to actually open up with a warp prism stalker drop into blink stalker all in. That'd be a serious buff to be afraid of. I'm also pretty sure the warp gate buff will matter somehow. I feel like you see 3 base warp gate pressure quite a bit in TvP and that's usually pretty hard to scout for and hold for Terran. If protoss ends up having a toolkit of 10+ scary build orders for Terran then there's no way that Terran can get into the midgame on even footing. Not to mention that we already know that Terran is in a bad position if they get to midgame on even footing. Yes the tempest change is nice, but honestly the tempest was just the icing on the cake. It's extremely hard for Terran to just beat a protoss with storm and tempests weren't that insane against bio - nothing that can't be replaced. But hurray, we get 3 more seconds to build our CC. I hope this will matter a ton, but I'm almost sure it wont. I don't get how the balance team seems to think they should solve the all in/proxy tvp meta by nerfing proxies, since all Terrans are in fact proxying because you can't win otherwise.
SC2 balance team: Strategy not utilized often => strategy is weak.
That's a fallacy though. Nydus worms aren't used because every map is 2 player and zerg creep spreads like wildfire. Nydus cheeses are just a tool in the toolbox and zerg doesn't need tricks to win anyway. If you want to see more nydus, put in larger maps or nerf zerg to where they need to use more tricks like Terran does. Buffing nydus health is just a hilarious change that completely misses the point.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
Also
On January 20 2019 10:42 Creager wrote:
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
well a top quality player should never lose to a master player under 5700 mmr. Its to easy to do one of the 100 allins that protoss have. Naturally turtle race??? youre joking? its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
Terran has the best prerequisities to camp the game, it just doesn't work on the top level since LotV. But in in the end of HotS it was possible-ish. I dare to say it will be possible in LotV again, but Terran is by far the best race if you have the hands for it and with quick enough hands - why wait and camp when you can wreak havoc?
TvP has always been trash in Legacy of the void. Last good TvPs I remember were in the "Dear Era". Those games seem out of this world now. Then also the "Maruder Era" was pretty cool. Hell, I would even trade the Blink Stalker Era for this crap we have now. (The Polt games against Classic and Rain, and Polt v P games in general still give me the chills).
And what do we have now? Totally boring Terran cheese, and games lasting 5 minutes. If they go past 7 minute mark, then we just witness a onesided Protoss victory, which is boring as well.
Hell even TvT seems boring to me nowadays, and I used to love watching this matchup. Seems like Blizz totally screwed up Terran in general. What a waste :/
TvZ is kinda okay although the lategame is pretty much non-existent
I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff zealot charge So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
I mean you should check your facts before answering actually he is right and you don't even realize it :/
On January 22 2019 08:23 DieuCure wrote: It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed, macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers, claiming colosi were buffed, ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units, also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP, is speaking about others "not knowing half of the change".
Typical terran. "I don't know why, but terran is underpowered". Here, a new signature for you. Thank me later.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
True but I fail to see how the Thor range increase achieve this. I mean it is a step in the right direction but I really doubt it will be enough against the Protoss late game.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
True but I fail to see how the Thor range increase achieve this. I mean it is a step in the right direction but I really doubt it will be enough against the Protoss late game.
While it may not necessarily be enough, the adept change is pretty big. Cyber before nexus builds will no longer almost guarantee the CC delay, which will help balance the economic discrepancy that makes it so hard for T to compete with P. As it stands now, the toss can get the natural AND third up and running pretty decently before the terran can, after the change I think it will just be the third, and we can adjust for balance after that. Im willing to bet something else will need to be done to help, but people are overlooking how important the adept timing difference is.
On January 23 2019 01:32 youngjiddle wrote: So much has changed since blink all ins were OP in HOTS for that short time... like the huge tank buff or introduction of units like liberators.
You all are whining without much backing...
No no no, you don't understand. Chronoboost was buffed.
On January 23 2019 01:32 youngjiddle wrote: So much has changed since blink all ins were OP in HOTS for that short time... like the huge tank buff or introduction of units like liberators.
You all are whining without much backing...
No no no, you don't understand. Chronoboost was buffed.
I can't even keep track of Chronoboost's changes anymore but I doubt since they last nerf to them they aren't a problem.
On January 22 2019 17:54 insitelol wrote: I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed
Yes, 2017 revamp.
macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers
+ gates auto opening, anything that require attention is huge, and protoss as less and less of that, so then macro is easier. + micro with the HT attack ( and dont say it doesnt affect the pro, it does ) + f2 friendly obs
Thermal Lance base range increased from 6 to 7. Thermal Lance damage changed from 12 to 10 (+5 light). Protoss ground weapon upgrades will add +1 to base and +1 to light. Extended Thermal Lance cost reduced from 200/200 to 150/150. Range upgrade increased Thermal Lance range by +2 instead of +3. Colossus weapons now have turret tracking.
, but i bet you knew it.
ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units
Nice, but you dont make tanks after 7min against protoss .
also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP
Yep, fast adept are a problem, and even the balance team agrees with that since they addressed this problem.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff zealot charge So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
I mean you should check your facts before answering actually he is right and you don't even realize it :/
On January 22 2019 08:23 DieuCure wrote: It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed, macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers, claiming colosi were buffed, ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units, also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP, is speaking about others "not knowing half of the change".
Typical terran. "I don't know why, but terran is underpowered". Here, a new signature for you. Thank me later.
*laughs in 88% PvT winrate*
I will say chargelots are extremely good. Like excessively good. Tempests are ALSO excessively good (soon to be mostly fixed though), especially on maps like stasis. AOE is very good as well, but theres counterplay there whereas the counterplay to tempests in current form is less reliable unless the toss is trash.
The current state of macro for the PvT matchup is favored for toss. It isn't until the midgame and/or lategame that the terran income shines over protoss income, when chronoboost is no longer being used almost exclusively on probes and is starting to be used on upgrades or tech units. Usually by this point the toss and terran have closer worker supply and the terran has mules still to put them higher. The problem is, minerals in the early game is more important than minerals in the later game, or put simply theres a bit of an exponential decay applied to the value of a flat amount of minerals as the game progresses. Because the toss can currently EASILY delay the terran natural AND get the third down much faster than the terran, they have the "Macro/Economic" advantage in the matchup currently.
Is the matchup quite as bad as a lot of people claim? Probably not. Is it still skewed across almost the entire MMR range? Definitely.
Terran was the leading race during the blink era despite doing shit in every region. I wouldn't rely on Aligulac's leading/lagging stat for anything ever.
On January 23 2019 04:11 MockHamill wrote: Patch is live on the US sever.
It also comes with an extra nerf to battlecruiser openings because BCs now prioritize static d over workers.
On January 23 2019 03:42 youngjiddle wrote: The "Terran can't beat Protoss late game" narrative is getting old and simply not true post-tempest nerf; just stop already.
First they came after protoss lategame vs. Z, next they go after Protoss vs. T? amusing.
I just love the people that refuse to believe that Terrans are the most talented overall at the highest level. It's not racial imbalance. Sucks that we tax good play!
On January 23 2019 04:20 WhiteSPiriT wrote: Can't believe they decided to make this patch going live.
Well, as a terran, it's time to uninstall and find a game more fun to play, I don't like the all-in meta and being quite forced to go mech vs Z.
Good luck to the brave ones still playing !
While I don't support your intended message and am no bot, if you would like to consider a different RTS to play (besides Brood War of course) I'd recommend AoE2. It is a fun alternative for me at least.
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
