On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote: Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
Also
On January 20 2019 10:42 Creager wrote:
On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote: In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
well a top quality player should never lose to a master player under 5700 mmr. Its to easy to do one of the 100 allins that protoss have. Naturally turtle race??? youre joking? its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
Terran has the best prerequisities to camp the game, it just doesn't work on the top level since LotV. But in in the end of HotS it was possible-ish. I dare to say it will be possible in LotV again, but Terran is by far the best race if you have the hands for it and with quick enough hands - why wait and camp when you can wreak havoc?
TvP has always been trash in Legacy of the void. Last good TvPs I remember were in the "Dear Era". Those games seem out of this world now. Then also the "Maruder Era" was pretty cool. Hell, I would even trade the Blink Stalker Era for this crap we have now. (The Polt games against Classic and Rain, and Polt v P games in general still give me the chills).
And what do we have now? Totally boring Terran cheese, and games lasting 5 minutes. If they go past 7 minute mark, then we just witness a onesided Protoss victory, which is boring as well.
Hell even TvT seems boring to me nowadays, and I used to love watching this matchup. Seems like Blizz totally screwed up Terran in general. What a waste :/
TvZ is kinda okay although the lategame is pretty much non-existent
I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff zealot charge So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
I mean you should check your facts before answering actually he is right and you don't even realize it :/
On January 22 2019 08:23 DieuCure wrote: It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed, macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers, claiming colosi were buffed, ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units, also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP, is speaking about others "not knowing half of the change".
Typical terran. "I don't know why, but terran is underpowered". Here, a new signature for you. Thank me later.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
True but I fail to see how the Thor range increase achieve this. I mean it is a step in the right direction but I really doubt it will be enough against the Protoss late game.
On January 22 2019 17:44 MockHamill wrote: I think Blizzard balances the game from the wrong end. They try to balance for winrates first, then look at design. They should do the opposite, try to get the design right first, then balance for winrates.
Most people prefer macro games to be the norm, with the occational cheese to spice things up. Right now it is the opposite in TvP, if you play macro Terran is at a severe disadvantage, so are forced to proxy just to have a chance in the midgame.
Right now those things are basically the same thing in TvP though. Terrans cheese because lategame is unwinnable. If you balance lategame you will also solve your design problems.
True but I fail to see how the Thor range increase achieve this. I mean it is a step in the right direction but I really doubt it will be enough against the Protoss late game.
While it may not necessarily be enough, the adept change is pretty big. Cyber before nexus builds will no longer almost guarantee the CC delay, which will help balance the economic discrepancy that makes it so hard for T to compete with P. As it stands now, the toss can get the natural AND third up and running pretty decently before the terran can, after the change I think it will just be the third, and we can adjust for balance after that. Im willing to bet something else will need to be done to help, but people are overlooking how important the adept timing difference is.
On January 23 2019 01:32 youngjiddle wrote: So much has changed since blink all ins were OP in HOTS for that short time... like the huge tank buff or introduction of units like liberators.
You all are whining without much backing...
No no no, you don't understand. Chronoboost was buffed.
On January 23 2019 01:32 youngjiddle wrote: So much has changed since blink all ins were OP in HOTS for that short time... like the huge tank buff or introduction of units like liberators.
You all are whining without much backing...
No no no, you don't understand. Chronoboost was buffed.
I can't even keep track of Chronoboost's changes anymore but I doubt since they last nerf to them they aren't a problem.
On January 22 2019 17:54 insitelol wrote: I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed
Yes, 2017 revamp.
macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers
+ gates auto opening, anything that require attention is huge, and protoss as less and less of that, so then macro is easier. + micro with the HT attack ( and dont say it doesnt affect the pro, it does ) + f2 friendly obs
Thermal Lance base range increased from 6 to 7. Thermal Lance damage changed from 12 to 10 (+5 light). Protoss ground weapon upgrades will add +1 to base and +1 to light. Extended Thermal Lance cost reduced from 200/200 to 150/150. Range upgrade increased Thermal Lance range by +2 instead of +3. Colossus weapons now have turret tracking.
, but i bet you knew it.
ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units
Nice, but you dont make tanks after 7min against protoss .
also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP
Yep, fast adept are a problem, and even the balance team agrees with that since they addressed this problem.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Nerf WM ( ? ) Buff stalker So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: Buff zealot charge So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote: I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
I mean you should check your facts before answering actually he is right and you don't even realize it :/
On January 22 2019 08:23 DieuCure wrote: It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
I, at least, admitted my single mistake, while a person who's living in a parallel universe where chronoboost was buffed, macro became easier for protoss because f2 ignores deployed observers, claiming colosi were buffed, ignoring the tank 40% increased DPS on armoured units, also implying adepts and protoss proxies are OP, is speaking about others "not knowing half of the change".
Typical terran. "I don't know why, but terran is underpowered". Here, a new signature for you. Thank me later.
*laughs in 88% PvT winrate*
I will say chargelots are extremely good. Like excessively good. Tempests are ALSO excessively good (soon to be mostly fixed though), especially on maps like stasis. AOE is very good as well, but theres counterplay there whereas the counterplay to tempests in current form is less reliable unless the toss is trash.
The current state of macro for the PvT matchup is favored for toss. It isn't until the midgame and/or lategame that the terran income shines over protoss income, when chronoboost is no longer being used almost exclusively on probes and is starting to be used on upgrades or tech units. Usually by this point the toss and terran have closer worker supply and the terran has mules still to put them higher. The problem is, minerals in the early game is more important than minerals in the later game, or put simply theres a bit of an exponential decay applied to the value of a flat amount of minerals as the game progresses. Because the toss can currently EASILY delay the terran natural AND get the third down much faster than the terran, they have the "Macro/Economic" advantage in the matchup currently.
Is the matchup quite as bad as a lot of people claim? Probably not. Is it still skewed across almost the entire MMR range? Definitely.
EPT
its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
