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On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote:
In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something?
Protoss doesn't have the ability to simply place a proxy pylon and warp-in as fast as they used to anymore, so super-early Blink strategies should not happen too often, I presume, maybe some crazy proxy Warpgate/Robo all-ins, 6/7 gate 2 base all-ins could hit a bit faster, but in this case you'd have plenty of time to scout and prepare accordingly.
Yet, the way I see it this whole shift of TvP momentum in LotV should not have happened, at all. Giving Protoss the upper hand in expansion speed/worker production, while still somewhat maintaining their diverse aggressive potential is just bullshit and a huge design mistake imo.
The inherent order always has been:
Z - cheapest units, swarmy nature, fastest expansion speed
T - average unit costs, most flexible playstyles, average expansion speed
P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
Now the problem with modern TvP is that Terran is still on a timer, as a traditional Terran lategame army simply cannot compete with an ultimate Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight (the dreaded 200/200 timing).
But not removing the 'simply don't let Protoss get there' label from the match-up while at the same time removing the midgame advantage Terran could achieve by out-expanding Protoss and hitting a good timing on 2 or 3 bases is just nuts, I mean, when nowadays Terran is shoehorned into proxy cheese every game just to be on even footing reaching for the midgame, there has to be something fundamentally wrong with the match-up.
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Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
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I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
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On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please.
start of LotV I guess
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Do not get how Zergs are not nerfed ... The TVZ is broken , please Blizzard nerf creep and the queens , a Zerg does not have to micro anymore ...
This is getting boring ...
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On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess
Adept vs Terran was insane 
BiovZ is broken , but since mech is op they buff z vbio, don't ask why, it's pretty clear that they are clueless now I think.
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On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3
Clem lost to a lot of players actually...
He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it.
At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese.
maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance
Also
On January 20 2019 10:42 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote:
In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something? P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed
That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins.
As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP.
The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
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On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess
Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup?
Economy stayed the same on both sides.
Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?).
Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones?
I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 21 2019 18:22 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?). Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones? I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots?
Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist.
Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame.
That's my view, but I'm no pro.
What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though.
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On January 21 2019 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 18:22 insitelol wrote:On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?). Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones? I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots? Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist. Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame. That's my view, but I'm no pro. What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though.
In all honesty, even if it was THAT impactful (which i doubt, but may be wrong). "Tank/cyclone/bunshee/you name it" pushes took stim agression spot and did it with great success.
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Everything went wrong.
Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
Nerf WM ( ? )
Buff stalker
So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
Buff colossus
Buff Chronoboost
Buff zealot charge
So macro became unplayable
As protoss you can deflect pretty much everything on 3 bases, and if the Terran wants to greed, you chrono your.probes to the moon
So nerf bio, buff core macro toss.
But ye I'm glad that pros can produce clown builds where you have to pull your scv and build 3 bunkers, very cool Blizzard, thanks.
I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
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On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25%
So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Nerf WM ( ? )
Buff stalker
So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot
WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced.
Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Buff colossus
Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Buff Chronoboost
In what universe?
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Buff zealot charge
So macro became unplayable
100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me.
So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right?
edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up.
On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds.
Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On January 21 2019 19:12 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:On January 21 2019 18:22 insitelol wrote:On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess Ok, lets do it step by step now. How exactly did Lotv changed the interaction in the matchup? Economy stayed the same on both sides. Protoss got adept and there was an allin period i'm aware of, but its gone for good. Lets be honest noone uses adepts now (outside of scouting and early harass that is a joke). Disruptors.. meh. It their current state they could not be treated as real threat to balance. Anything else? SB? Is that your problem? (MSC was better?). Terran on the other hand got libs (that were insanely OP at the start) and tankivacs (insanely OP). Thank god they were nerfed. But lets talk about 70 tank damage buff. No? Cyclones? I'm not trolling btw, i really (really) wanna now, what went wrong and when. But don't even start on that mech bs please (no offense). Just tell me how did standard bio got nerfed in lotv in comparison to hots? Worse time slots. Generally speaking - because the LotV the changed economy and Terran was based in TvP on the early/mid game pressure. As a Protoss you had to be prepared to defend your 2nd from the stim push. Taht's just one example. Generally speaing - early game designated pressure is nowadays an all in. Otherwise it doesn't exist because the stim starts at mid-game. Which is the problem IMO in TvP bio wise. The early game slot was so shorten it nearly doesn't exist. Also the snipe nerf vs Templars, but that's more into the lategame. That's my view, but I'm no pro. What bio needs is the dangerous opening to threaten the early game of Protoss. In the past I "offered" the resurrection of medics + drop ships in factories. This would result in more aggresive options for the bio player as the drops/pushes could happen earlier. Maybe a little faster stim too, not sure how this would screw Zergs though. In all honesty, even if it was THAT impactful (which i doubt, but may be wrong). "Tank/cyclone/bunshee/you name it" pushes took stim agression spot and did it with great success.
But it's not a bio opening on which you build. maybe the tank opening is.
I don't know, that's how I see the game and that's what was threating before and isn't now. If it would have the desired impact - cannot tell, I'm nowhere near to know it.
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On January 21 2019 17:18 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3 Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese. maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance Also Show nested quote +On January 20 2019 10:42 Creager wrote:On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote:
In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something? P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP. The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others.
Happy cake-day!
If you look at the history of SC2, it's very true, though - up until LotV Protoss has been the most defensive race when opting for a macro-oriented game and the fact that this has changed is what I find disturbing balance-wise.
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Germany15880 Posts
On January 21 2019 16:42 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 15:17 insitelol wrote:
I've given up on reasoning people long ago, but i'm still gonna ask.
Dear Terrans.
When exactly did terran race become inferior to protoss? Name a time period or a date please. start of LotV I guess
that's not true there were periods in LotV when the matchup was even terran favored (after the tank buff).
For most of 2016 and 2017 terrans were pretty okay playing macro against protoss with strong bio liberator pushes, only after the MSC removal and the changes to "balance" it out (recall, widow mine cloak removal, chronoboost change, shield batteries, Collossus buff) the matchup became this lopsided
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On January 21 2019 17:18 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 11:16 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Clem lost to a master player spaz! Lets nerf terran some more<3 Clem lost to a lot of players actually... He played through all 3 of the qualifiers, loser bracket included, and didnt make it. At least 2 of his knockdowns/knockouts were in TvT, against soul, and someone named Bluecheese. maybe - and i know this is gonna sound crazy but hear me out- it s not the balance Also Show nested quote +On January 20 2019 10:42 Creager wrote:On January 20 2019 02:38 MockHamill wrote:
In my experience it is hard to take a 3rd on time in TvP. Protoss can attack/posture while expanding and Terran has to expand later then Protoss or risk dying on the spot.
Will not this be an ever larger problem now when warpgate is faster and blink is cheaper? Am I missing something? P - most expensive units, kind of "turtly" nature, but extremely powerful, slowest expansion speed That is simply not true. Protoss can be played "turtly" then again same goes for Zerg, and Terran is the most naturally "turtly" race. And protoss has probably the most flexibility in terms of early game cheeses/allins. As for expansion rate, they usually expand at the same rate as zerg, aside from the slightly slower 3rd in PvZ, and they expand faster/ same rate as Terran in TvP. The units are, on average, more expansive, that s true, although Protoss can be played with "swarmy" style as well, like the gateway-only PvT style of SoS and others. well a top quality player should never lose to a master player under 5700 mmr. Its to easy to do one of the 100 allins that protoss have. Naturally turtle race??? youre joking? its a reason that whole lotv, in tvp and tvz there has been nothing but proxy or a 2 base all in timing lol. Terran lategame units sucks and cant be Remade fast enough like protoss and zerg can.
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I just read these changes and I'm honestly flabbergasted. It almost feels like a joke to me. I am really sad because I was already feeling extremely frustrated with the TvP match up in general and with TvZ lategame and I don't really like the mirror much anyways, so the fact that they decide to make it worse doesn't really make me happy.
I get that BC rushes might be a little bit strong against zerg, but it's a serious investment that can be scouted with an overlord and should just lose to the zerg getting a few corruptors right? The cyclone change makes me pretty sad as magfield accelerator was also used for macro TvP builds.. It's the only thing in the Terran arsenal which allows you to put on serious pressure without stim, so that's heavily nerfed now (especially since those builds relied on swapping the factory and rax and starting stim on the same techlab). The thor range buff is of course ridiculous as thors are just useless units.
The ultra buff makes no sense to me. Ultras are honestly already pretty good. They're not the jack of all trades and they're no broodlords, but they're pretty good. The reason people don't make them is because broodlords are almost a win button. Terran can't really push against broodlords unless they're very far ahead and is forced to just turtle. If they're even with the zerg broodlords usually straight up win the game if the zerg can get there. Ultralisks are usually the bridge to Broodlords in rough games. If you buff these units to the point where they are also viable, you're indirectly buffing broodlords too. If the Terran player has to be able to deal with tech switches into both ultras and broodlords at any time both those units will be stronger because the terran player can't effectively counter them.
Meanwhile Protoss is just getting a bunch of buffs. Why do observers need a straight up buff anyways. The robo bay cost change will make immortal allins much scarier. Maybe this won't directly affect macro play but changes like that always indirectly matter. I'm also afraid that the changes to blink/robo will make it possible to actually open up with a warp prism stalker drop into blink stalker all in. That'd be a serious buff to be afraid of. I'm also pretty sure the warp gate buff will matter somehow. I feel like you see 3 base warp gate pressure quite a bit in TvP and that's usually pretty hard to scout for and hold for Terran. If protoss ends up having a toolkit of 10+ scary build orders for Terran then there's no way that Terran can get into the midgame on even footing. Not to mention that we already know that Terran is in a bad position if they get to midgame on even footing. Yes the tempest change is nice, but honestly the tempest was just the icing on the cake. It's extremely hard for Terran to just beat a protoss with storm and tempests weren't that insane against bio - nothing that can't be replaced. But hurray, we get 3 more seconds to build our CC. I hope this will matter a ton, but I'm almost sure it wont. I don't get how the balance team seems to think they should solve the all in/proxy tvp meta by nerfing proxies, since all Terrans are in fact proxying because you can't win otherwise.
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SC2 balance team: Strategy not utilized often => strategy is weak.
That's a fallacy though. Nydus worms aren't used because every map is 2 player and zerg creep spreads like wildfire. Nydus cheeses are just a tool in the toolbox and zerg doesn't need tricks to win anyway. If you want to see more nydus, put in larger maps or nerf zerg to where they need to use more tricks like Terran does. Buffing nydus health is just a hilarious change that completely misses the point.
Pointless changes don't belong in Starcraft.
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On January 21 2019 19:52 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Map vision got even easier with the f2 friendly obs +25% So you want me to take your response seriously? Good start. Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Nerf WM ( ? )
Buff stalker
So you can't really harass early without commiting a lot WM was nerfed not that long ago (not in the beggining of Lotv). And as far as i remember every race agreed on that, because it made sense. 1.5 tier cheap and invisible unit blowing 10 probes in an instant was clearly balanced. Stalker was buffed because it was complete trash. And i still didn't hear you mentioning a 70 damage tank buff . 40 % damage increased per shot vs "buffed" stalker.Colosi was changed, not buffed. Its worse vs marauders, better vs marines. In what universe? Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
Buff zealot charge
So macro became unplayable 100/100 saved for protoss midgame made macro unplayable. You got me. So. To summ it up. Removing WM invisibility and minus 100/100 on a mid-game upgraid for protoss broke TvP. Am i right? edit: sorry forgot that 8 damage buff to charge. My bad. But i still can't see it "breaking" the match up. Show nested quote +On January 21 2019 19:31 DieuCure wrote:
I'm not even mentioning the adept or proxy builds. Why not, i'm all ears. Adepts and proxy builds. Please tell.
I mean you should check your facts before answering actually he is right and you don't even realize it :/
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It isnt worth to answer him, he doesnt even know half of the change, acts like buffing every single unit isnt a problem at all (+making the macro easier + chronoboost+ ...), and then he wonders "What went wrong ?" ...
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EPT
