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On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill.
It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling.
The best players would use it to be even better.
It's not about injecting on time, you can see the larvae pop for that, it's about planning ahead to that time.
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On October 22 2018 22:39 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:27 TrashPanda wrote:On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head.
Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds For multiple hatches, un-synced, while macroing and microing? There is a reason why even the best zergs in the world don't have 100% injection up time. But its not just that, you can tell when the injection poped, because you can see the larvae rise. You CAN'T tell when it's GOING TO pop, you don't have a display if you got five seconds or twenty. And having this information would RAISE the skill ceiling on zerg macro. It would give the best players another tool to plan and improve on their macro cycles.
You do know that you can stack injects, right? Having near perfect uptime on injects isn't really that hard even for a beginner like me (low diamond zerg last season), unless something forces me to use my queens otherwise.
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TrashPanda confirmed better than most progamers who float hundreds of minerals around 90 supply in ZvT :o
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On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better.
Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't.
The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level.
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On October 22 2018 22:47 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:39 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:27 TrashPanda wrote:On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head.
Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds For multiple hatches, un-synced, while macroing and microing? There is a reason why even the best zergs in the world don't have 100% injection up time. But its not just that, you can tell when the injection poped, because you can see the larvae rise. You CAN'T tell when it's GOING TO pop, you don't have a display if you got five seconds or twenty. And having this information would RAISE the skill ceiling on zerg macro. It would give the best players another tool to plan and improve on their macro cycles. You do know that you can stack injects, right? Having near perfect uptime on injects isn't really that hard even for a beginner like me (low diamond zerg last season), unless something forces me to use my queens otherwise.
Yeah, and again, it isn't about that.
It's about knowing, ahead of time, when the inject will pop.
And having that information displayed, while having multiple hatches selected.
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On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level.
At this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it will give the best players more information they could leverage to even greater heights, you don't. Not much more to add.
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I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
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On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level.
That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you.
It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking.
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On October 22 2018 23:06 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level. That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you. It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking.
A top Zerg already knows when they have to inject without an indicator. This change would punish them by not rewarding a skill they have which lesser Zergs don't have.
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On October 22 2018 23:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:06 Sakat wrote:On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote:
The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level. That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you. It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking. A top Zerg already knows when they have to inject without an indicator. This change would punish them by not rewarding a skill they have which lesser Zergs don't have.
That's demonstrably false, pro zerg players DO NOT have one hundred percent inject times.
This would enable them to be better and to also plan ahead, which they can do much better then lower tier players.
I personally assume that this increase in information to plan ahead would outweigh the benefits of improved injects by lower tier players, you don't. Not much more we can say beyond testing this.
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I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
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On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote:
I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
Well said!
Thanks for the input.
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As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed.
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On October 22 2018 23:41 Vutalisk wrote:
As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed.
The indicator isn't for canceling hatches, it's for displaying when a hatchery is ready to be injected again, much like the warpgate indicator that displays how long until a warpgate is ready to warp in another unit.
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this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer.
On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP.
However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players.
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You can bounce between bases as it is right now with camera hotkeys to monitor the timer. Just as protoss or terran do to monitor their SCV production. The "tap" has changed since days passed. You're not tapping between 5 and 4 to monitor an SCV building and a Marine building, for example. You're using your F-Keys to see how close something is to being done. This requires you to look back at your base. Zerg should be doing the same. It's a huge part of what makes this game what it is.
Sorry, the information you're looking for with the timer already exists, and by design it requires you to expend attention and look for it. More bases, more places to check. It's a truly a function of design in this game and it doesn't need to be made any easier.
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On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
This is correct, though OP just doesn't know how to express his point. He means that the level of play will increase because pros will have more effecient injects or something. That's an interesting view of quality of play though. I guess having workers auto-mine also increases the quality of play for you, but in my opinion it doesn't. For most people, the level of your play is determined by your talent/skill - how you go above and beyond what the game provides you to create and execute strategies and tactics.
In a sense then, lowering the skill ceiling can decrease the level of play, since it prevents players from being good at certain things (since the game does it for them).
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On October 22 2018 23:44 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:41 Vutalisk wrote:
As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed. The indicator isn't for canceling hatches, it's for displaying when a hatchery is ready to be injected again, much like the warpgate indicator that displays how long until a warpgate is ready to warp in another unit.
That is even worse. Nowadays, everyone uses stacked injects. Not sure why you need to pay attention to that at all.
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I would have guessed that sc2 fans are not against any small qol change considering that balance gets altered all the time by way bigger changes. Though maybe the ones against qol changes are against patches as well, might be the case.
Point is, any change will obviously impact the difficulty of playing the game in some way respective to other races and players and therefore change "balance" and player hirarchy.
Some would be so small (like this one) that it doesn't really matter though. The change which made it easier to see how many workers you have was way bigger and in the end it seems like it didn't really impact the game in a negative way.
With that being said i am somewhat scared that these small changes would lead to bigger ones in the future (like automated splitting, automated injecting, etc). So it's definitely a case by case thing and probably good to at least be sceptical of any change. Not completely close minded though, which a lot of posters showcase here 
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On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote:
I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
Although I completely agree with you, as not providing certain information via UI makes for very subtle differences in skill (e.g. having to box mineral-mining workers manually to count and check the saturation or not having a border around the scan radius, because that stuff is something you can get really good at guessing/feeling out by simply playing a lot, let's call it 'trained intuition'), I feel we are beating a dead horse here, as the majority of people wants things to be easier instead of harder.
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EPT
