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Zerg and protoss already received massive QoL buffs. And when i say QoL, i mean "making the game easier mechanically for no reason but to make it easier".
Now protosses and zerg can F2 around with overseer/observers "sieged" to keep vision, with the HTs in the deathball, and while queueing injects.
This isn't a balance complain in the defense of terran : I simply think it's a terrible idea to make the game mechanically easier for the sake of making it mechanically easier.
Having crisp injects was once a way for pro zergs to distinguish themselves, allowing for instance some players to play heavy lings styles that now disappeared because the game had to be balanced around zerg having much more consistant injects than in WOL-HOTS. Excellent HT control was once a way for pro protosses to distinguish themselves, excellent observer positioning and the capacity for pros to move them around without misscontrolling was a way for pros to distinguish themselves.
Those "QoL" changes are nonsense.
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It does it for warpgates already if i m not mistaken?
So i dont see an issue with doing it for hatches too
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On October 23 2018 02:04 WGT-Baal wrote:
It does it for warpgates already if i m not mistaken?
So i dont see an issue with doing it for hatches too
Exactly my thought from the begining. I can't see why it didn't pop up before in this discussion.
I hope people against that idea are also against the warpgate timer. And every spell timer by the way.
The only race less concerned about that kind of stuff is Terran maybe. That would be more or less like adding a timer on barracks for the unit production. And that would make sense too.
Protoss basic prod relates on warpgate which is almost instantaneous and show a timer.
Zerg production relates on larvae. You produce as many as you want as long you have larvae. The timer would then do the same as for the warpgate, show when your larvae are available + planning ahead for injecting.
Terran produce units one by one and the only indicator is a small square that shows that building is producing. I wouldn't mind if they also got a timer.
I don't feel like it would lower the skill ceiling anyway. In my case (low-mid diamond), I miss injects because of multitask problems. I would have the same problems with or without the timer. It is just an extra info that can be usefull to know when future larvae will pop up and to plan in advance.
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thank you for posting iceman. i know it's difficult getting shot down in almost senseless ways, or seeing the effort not close to par. sorry for the long post.
i'm in a different camp for the suggestion though and based on the arguments, this is the statement i agree with the most:
On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
...Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
On October 22 2018 17:37 IcemanAsi wrote:
...At the moment there is no quick way to see where all your injects are. You literally can't plan for when the larvae will pop without individually checking each hatch.
this is where the main point of contention lies, i think.
first of all, there is a quick way and you can check with one click of a button and a little bit of preparation. if the argument is that great players have never done it flawlessly then that is also a bit of a misnomer and discredits some of the decision making in some of the most perfect games of starcraft played.
simply put, starcraft is about reminding yourself to do things and to create a priority system on what is important and what is not. an example of what is not important is controlling units to maximize their lifetime, in other words over-controlling. the value and importance of this goes up as player skill does as units will be made and placed in position at more opportune moments and for longer; sometimes strategies or tactics hinge on getting damage done at specific points in time with the few units that you made, but for the most part there are more pressing things to put focus to until you become adept at everything at once.
for this same little priority system, you will see queen energy go up or hatcheries go some time without injects, and creep tumors unattended/unused.
this can easily happen because there are things that are much more taxing during the game and things that are much more impactful to do requiring your immediate attention for the extended amount of time it requires of you; which further requires you to practice each skill in near isolation and results in making everything easier to do.
this does not mean that it wouldn't be absolutely ideal to have players able to do everything at once, or to have a helper for the mental planning to that effect, but it does mean that there is a skill requirement created with how the game currently is by having a player constantly fumble with prioritization. it's part of what makes the game dynamic from game to game, it's part of what made SCBW one of the most balanced and creative games because of the impossibility of playing an absolutely perfect game.
i'm just putting this out there, but on the inject timings themselves,
if injects are done quickly in cycles--and i understand that even the best players mess this up often enough--checking one hatchery is sufficient enough to see progress on all of them. i don't view these sets of actions as too much or too little. with knowledge you can reduce the time it takes to inject the three hatcheries (and let's be honest, most players will only ever inject these three or four hatcheries) and to check the progress on them is one swift motion that is made easier by being diligent at the former actions of injecting them. ie. being fast and accurate at the injects and understanding that it lines up this way. it becomes a pendulum in the background that slowly but surely falls silent as the game goes on.
and that's perfectly fine because at points you'll have more larvae than you can spend for certain styles of play, and that's enough for most players to not care about maximizing further.
there is also a "counter-play" to the inefficiencies of it, and that is creating macro hatches and more queens which is hardly an incredible investment as the other races are seen doing things like this too. (extra orbitals, extra gateways, extra production in general). we have always flirted with the idea with having less or doing more with less, but it never required cutting extra production. it's a cushion for the mistakes you know you are bound to make, and it is also a skill to account for them entirely, with nothing to say about the original idea itself.
professionals can mess this up and i know it can seem silly, but these things have happened since starcraft 1 and will continue to happen in all RTS and all games. the best players always have something to practice that may seem obvious to many other people. i've taught the game to many people of all levels and one of the biggest things to focus on has always been self diligence and having self-learned patterns for little game details.
and this detail of having to inject in cycles (sometimes running into the problem of losing the timing or being forced to do so) is hardly unfair because there are many ways to make it easier for the two or three ways methods that people already use, and many ways to plan for an eventual hiccup.
the change you're suggesting is simple enough and it seems even anachronistic to not have it, but touching on your OP and the very first quote in my post, i just don't think it's necessary. i still do think it will take away too much from what players can already easily practice or otherwise, will be a mechanic that goes unused entirely, even by players who ask for it and know how to use it.
ease of use does not mean it will get used in meaningful ways on average, even if a good amount of players will be able to benefit in a good way.
TL;DR
So why not do it?
it doesn't contribute to winrates so much as due diligence and specific practice does.
it does bring the skill bar closer to relative even among zerg players when management of this main production mechanic is already easy as is. there is decision making that is inherent to being unable to do everything perfectly and it includes this mechanic as well, while the skill is to reduce mistakes (as in any game) and leverage what you can so you can play a winning playstyle of your very own.
i'm not against even removing warpgate timers to add the action of having to mouse over and click on a gateway to check cooldown on one individual gate (as an reminder for all other gateways that were used in the same way/timing).
i think it is a form of cognitive dissonance to vy consistently (for example) for QoL for something that is practiced in all (zerg) SC2 games and currently rewards you in different (obvious or non-obvious) ways for doing so.
if there were an expensive unit or general addition you could make in another RTS that would help greatly in reminding you to do stuff, players would almost always err on the side of not using it because of the extra cost attached. in this case, there wouldn't be any and that is what i would disagree with the most.
having everything line up through efforts of my own is also part of my fun with the game and i think something that most people i've played with have also realized over time for themselves.
i do understand that some players (and some who haven't thought about it yet) want to remove the chore of it.
hypothetically if the change came around (and many other similar QoL changes to follow), players would adapt (as they always do)--some even leaving with the direction the game seems to be taking, and some having more fun because of it.
i'm the opinion that with a game that requires mastery, the fun had strictly with more ease doesn't last longer than the fun produced from having to conquer the difficulties.
and off topic,
On October 22 2018 21:43 Rodya wrote:
...When buliding a pylon, you should be able to see an overlay which tells you what the energy field that it covers would be.
i know it's a mostly facetious comment but for people who aren't aware,
it already does this, unless you're looking for more.
it displays coverage on the step that you choose to build a pylon but haven't yet placed it. if this is supposed to be a complicated visual thing where it drops down and shows which gateways it powers from the HUD, that would be redundant for what i think are obvious reasons.
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On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players.
I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"?
For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
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This would be cool. Not too useful, actually, because injects stack, so you only miss the first one ever, unless you're behind a complete cycle.
But as everything else that makes the game difficult to play just to reward repetitive training instead of actually understanding the game, manual injects should go away completely (together with splitting, stutter-step, focus-fire and so on).
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On October 23 2018 03:17 Haukinger wrote:
This would be cool. Not too useful, actually, because injects stack, so you only miss the first one ever, unless you're behind a complete cycle.
But as everything else that makes the game difficult to play just to reward repetitive training instead of actually understanding the game, manual injects should go away completely (together with splitting, stutter-step, focus-fire and so on).
how do you automate focus-fire?
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing.
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
And that is your greatest problem - that you automatically think everyone enjoys the game for what you like in it. I enjoy it despite the household chores and I am quite clearly not the only one, seeing as other people who want those streamlined exist. There is just so much more to the game than mindless clicking, but people like you somehow stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that.
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I don't think this is necessary, but I do recommend setting a timer on your phone if you want to get into the habit of doing injects. It worked for me back in the day.
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me.
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On October 23 2018 05:29 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me.
I'm not telling anyone to leave - I'm just wondering why they're still here if they don't like the fundamentals of the genre.
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On October 23 2018 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 05:29 StasisField wrote:On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me. I'm not telling anyone to leave - I'm just wondering why they're still here if they don't like the fundamentals of the genre.
You are most certainly telling people to leave. If you were actually wondering why they were here despite not liking one aspect of the genre, you would have asked that. Instead, you told people that if they didn't like it, there was another genre of game they should look to instead. Don't sit here and insult my intelligence by trying to lie to me.
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I wasn't sure what to think of this suggestion until I read nanaoei 's post, very well written and I have to say I'm convinced. If you keep a steady cycle there is an easy way of checking the progress. More importantly how to manage injects and being on top of their status is an actual skill that involves a lot of different nuances.
I'm for quality of life changes but I believe there is a clear distinction between mindless repetition and actions that also contain other facets of choice and decision making. Not saying there should be no mindless repetition just that some of those are the uninteresting apm sinks that might not be needed for the enjoyment and balance of the game.
Also as Statis fittingly wrote so well earlier:
On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote:
Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Saying that others that disagree with you about the design of SC2 or what is the "right" way to ejoy SC2 should leave for a different game pretty much falls in line with being the kind of poster described above.
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On October 23 2018 07:46 Shuffleblade wrote:I wasn't sure what to think of this suggestion until I read nanaoei 's post, very well written and I have to say I'm convinced. If you keep a steady cycle there is an easy way of checking the progress. More importantly how to manage injects and being on top of their status is an actual skill that involves a lot of different nuances. I'm for quality of life changes but I believe there is a clear distinction between mindless repetition and actions that also contain other facets of choice and decision making. Not saying there should be no mindless repetition just that some of those are the uninteresting apm sinks that might not be needed for the enjoyment and balance of the game. Also as Statis fittingly wrote so well earlier: Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote:
Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Saying that others that disagree with you about the design of SC2 or what is the "right" way to ejoy SC2 should leave for a different game pretty much falls in line with being the kind of poster described above.
EDIT: my mistake, thought you were calling me out!
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On October 23 2018 03:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote:
I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing.
Okay so you don't like everything that isn't fighting. Go install Battlerite - you'll never get the urge to play an RTS or MOBA again.
Economic "chores", as you call them are staples of the RTS genre - they are what make it an RTS and not some kind of strategic military simulator.
As someone else said, zergs ALREADY HAVE the information that OP is asking for - use camera hotkeys.
As a protoss player, I agree that protoss/zerg have gotten way too many "quality of life" buffs (because that's what they are - buffs). I feel bad for Terrans, but also am jealous of them because for me it's too easy to not miss warp-in cycles among other things as previously mentioned. If I weren't mostly playing Remastered now I would consider switching to Terran because it is by far the most untouched race.
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
It would make sense to have it in the same way you see warp in cooldowns for warpgates. I don't see how it can be negative, but it is no biggie either way.
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I think it's a nice qol change. I'm for it 
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This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting.
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EPT
