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Hi,
When a single hatchery is selected and injected, we get to see a progress bar showing Larvae Inject progress. When multiple hatcheries are selected, as is the most common case to macro effectively, this information no longer appears. Zerg injects are a core macro mechanic and hiding this information is an UI blunder in my opinion. This can be easily remedied by adding a countdown timer displayed on the hatchery icons in a similar manner to warp gate cool-down display
This has been a pet peeve of mine for years and I've suggested it on blizzards forum multiple times and never got a response. I'm wondering if I'm missing something, would this be too much of a boost for zerg? Or do you guys think is isn't necessary?
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This is not necessary. This will make Zerg SUPER easy since it's one of the basic mechanics that distinguish good zerg players. This would pretty much be a timer that remind you to macro.
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Don't think it will make it super easy, but I do think it will make zerg status more readable. This won't macro for you, but will show where you macro stands. At the moment there is no quick way to see where all your injects are. You literally can't plan for when the larvae will pop without individually checking each hatch. Also, take note that this already exists on warp gates, so this isn't outside the realm of the game.
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Lack of readability does make the game harder but it does it in a way that I don't think is interesting or satisfying. Its why they added the unit/worker count display on the supply, not knowing how many workers you have did make the game harder. But it made it harder in a way that didn't contribute to the game.
I think it's the same here, the lack of readability makes zerg macro harder, but in a way that isn't interesting or satisfying. I'd like them to fix it. I don't think this will be the buff that breaks zerg and if it is. Well, not like zerg players aren't used to nerfs.
Having pro players being able to maximize their injects, planning ahead to the exact moment the inject pops will raise the ceiling on zerg macro and would be satisfying and cool to watch. Seeing Seral inject multiple hatches in a heartbeat and having all his clocks in step, then adding another hatch and timing the inject just right so it's synced as well, that would be cool.
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On October 22 2018 17:43 IcemanAsi wrote: Lack of readability does make the game harder but it does it in a way that I don't think is interesting or satisfying. Its why they added the unit/worker count display on the supply, not knowing how many workers you have did make the game harder. But it made it harder in a way that didn't contribute to the game.
I think it's the same here, the lack of readability makes zerg macro harder, but in a way that isn't interesting or satisfying. I'd like them to fix it. I don't think this will be the buff that breaks zerg and if it is. Well, not like zerg players aren't used to nerfs.
Having pro players being able to maximize their injects, planning ahead to the exact moment the inject pops will raise the ceiling on zerg macro and would be satisfying and cool to watch. Seeing Seral inject multiple hatches in a heartbeat and having all his clocks in step, then adding another hatch and timing the inject just right so it's synced as well, that would be cool.
I also want automuling past 100 energy ( so you can always have a scan available), maybe auto building supply depots and auto splitting would be nice too, maybe this way foreign terrans can win something.
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You're always going to get people who argue that this makes the game too easy, but I think I'm with you on this one. Something like this would be great. Already, most good Zerg players have a single hatchery on a hotkey so that they can check the timer while they're doing other things.
This just makes it so that you can get rid of that hotkey. The mechanical action (tap to check), doesn't change.
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On October 22 2018 17:56 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 17:43 IcemanAsi wrote: Lack of readability does make the game harder but it does it in a way that I don't think is interesting or satisfying. Its why they added the unit/worker count display on the supply, not knowing how many workers you have did make the game harder. But it made it harder in a way that didn't contribute to the game.
I think it's the same here, the lack of readability makes zerg macro harder, but in a way that isn't interesting or satisfying. I'd like them to fix it. I don't think this will be the buff that breaks zerg and if it is. Well, not like zerg players aren't used to nerfs.
Having pro players being able to maximize their injects, planning ahead to the exact moment the inject pops will raise the ceiling on zerg macro and would be satisfying and cool to watch. Seeing Seral inject multiple hatches in a heartbeat and having all his clocks in step, then adding another hatch and timing the inject just right so it's synced as well, that would be cool.
I also want automuling past 100 energy ( so you can always have a scan available), maybe auto building supply depots and auto splitting would be nice too, maybe this way foreign terrans can win something.
Only this does nothing for you, it's a display, not an action. Also it's information you could get by giving every hatch it's own group, but we got multiple building group creation, and we shouldn't get less information when we you use it.
I'll clarify, I'M NOT SUGGESTING AUTO-INJECT. I'm suggesting a display of injection timers when hatcheries are injected, when multiple hatcheries are selected.
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I'm willing to wager 9/10 people who read (and accurately comprehend) what you wrote would nonchalantly agree that this should absolutely be a part of the game and then they move on with their day without bothering to post their sentiments on the matter. The 1/10 who disagree are significantly more likely to actually respond to your post, and their arguments are typically marred by poor logic, grammar or glaring reading comprehension issues. This is known as a negative response bias.
Nothing about this change reduces the mechanical difficulty.
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On October 22 2018 18:09 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 17:56 IshinShishi wrote:On October 22 2018 17:43 IcemanAsi wrote: Lack of readability does make the game harder but it does it in a way that I don't think is interesting or satisfying. Its why they added the unit/worker count display on the supply, not knowing how many workers you have did make the game harder. But it made it harder in a way that didn't contribute to the game.
I think it's the same here, the lack of readability makes zerg macro harder, but in a way that isn't interesting or satisfying. I'd like them to fix it. I don't think this will be the buff that breaks zerg and if it is. Well, not like zerg players aren't used to nerfs.
Having pro players being able to maximize their injects, planning ahead to the exact moment the inject pops will raise the ceiling on zerg macro and would be satisfying and cool to watch. Seeing Seral inject multiple hatches in a heartbeat and having all his clocks in step, then adding another hatch and timing the inject just right so it's synced as well, that would be cool.
I also want automuling past 100 energy ( so you can always have a scan available), maybe auto building supply depots and auto splitting would be nice too, maybe this way foreign terrans can win something. Only this does nothing for you, it's a display, not an action. Also it's information you could get by giving every hatch it's own group, but we got multiple building group creation, and we shouldn't get less information when we you use it. I'll clarify, I'M NOT SUGGESTING AUTO-INJECT. I'm suggesting a display of injection timers when hatcheries are injected, when multiple hatcheries are selected. I never said you were, it still makes the game easier for the race that already has the easiest macro, its uncalled for.
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There isn't much point of suggesting things like this on TL. It will always get jumped on by the vocal minority of people whose lives fall apart upon any thought of making SC2 even a tiny bit more friendly to anyone and that will be about it. Blizzard doesn't watch this forum (definitely not for in-game suggestions). It does sometimes happen that a great user suggestion makes it way to the UI, but it had to be something exceptional that gains a lot of "why did I not think about this" responses and it is quite rare. If you get no reactions on b.net (are you posting to the US one, right?) then try r/starcraft on reddit maybe. But TL is mostly hopeless.
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There should also be a button that makes the AI play the game for you.
User was warned for this post.
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The replies to well thought out posts like this reminds me why this community is a garbage fire that deserves everything it gets
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 22 2018 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: There should also be a button that makes the AI play the game for you.
According to the search this is at least the fourth time you made a post very similar to this with the same message. I think you have made your point and it is enough.
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When you select a group of nexus, each icon should have a clearly readable number which tells you how much energy it has.
When your main army is on creep and the zerg begins surrounding you, the game should politely remind you that, if you want, you can use recall.
When you select a group of HT, it should tell you how many storms you can cast with them, as well as indicators on the ground show what their range is.
The Forge should be bright red when it isn't researching anything. Same for the Cybernetics core.
When buliding a pylon, you should be able to see an overlay which tells you what the energy field that it covers would be.
When an Immortal takes damage, its protrait should tell you how long before its shield comes back up.
If you're playing against zerg and some lings run by an observer, the game should audibly tell you that a ling runby is coming towards your third.
When you build a collosus without range, there should be a bright indicator somewhere that tells you that you have forgotten it. If it is researching, there should be a separate icon to let you know.
By the way - the opposite of the negative response bias, the positive response bias (or the relevancy bias, and the notion of a screener) has the opposite effect. People don't even open a thread if it isn't relevant to them. The vast majority of people that clicked on this post play Zerg.
Point is, the exact principle you used in coming up with this suggestion can be used on the other races in a way that would make most zerg players scream. These changes are just like yours, and yet if Protoss had them then they would do much better on the ladder.
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I would support the nexus energy icon, HT storm counter, pylon field display and immortal portrait. All these things make perfect sense and would just give you better information and control of the interface. You have on purpose scattered silly things among them to make them seem absurd, but they just aren't.
I just don't understand this extremely strong racial bias people have. It's not like you were born Zerg, Terran or Protoss. If my race doesn't immediately benefit from something, it's terrible! Why can't we just have nice things for all races? And if someone thinks that some race is sooo imba, just switch to it, unless you are a pro, it's no big deal.
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Yeah, I'd support quite a few of those, not the audio cues but definitely the nexus energy display and pylon cues. The pylon thing is actually really obvious lack of information. Would strongly support that. It would clutter up the interface a bit, because you build pylons a LOT, so you're going to be seeing that field a lot of the time, but yeah, no reason it shouldn't be there. That's crucial information you should have.
Games are about interesting decisions, the UI should give the information to make those decisions, if you're losing games because the informaion wasn't presented clearly enough, that doesn't make the game more difficult in a positive way. Audio cues of unit sightings would help, but would I agree be a step too far, because the information IS PRESENTED, the units DID SHOW on your mini-map, but did you see them?
Your confusing the difficulty of sensing and reacting to information with presentation of information. Your forge does show it isn't researching, it changes its animation. there IS NO DISPLAY OF INJECTION TIMERS WHEN MULTIPLE HATCHES ARE SELECTED. The information is not presented to you.
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Here's the thing, if you'd think of the SC2 interface as something a real commander would have, it's criminally bad. Let's take your example- unit runbys: A unit runs through a spotted area and disappears. And that's what happens in the mini map, it shows, then it's gone. If you compare it to a military radar display, a radar display would keep that signal lit with a last known direction of movment indicator. think of it like a small arrow pointing at last know direction. signals currently tracked are constantly updated for location and direction of movement. You'd have automated unit counters, estimated income based on known bases, etc.
Now would I want all that in the game? No. But it's a balancing act. I want an interface that's clear and aesthetic and easy for new players to pick up. I want one that shows the most relevant information while still leaving enough room for me to improve. I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head. Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
*I would actually really like to see a mod of SC2 with a fully revamped UI, one made by someone with battlefield information UI experience, let me tell you, mini-map, gonna be WAY bigger.
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On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head. Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds
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On October 22 2018 22:27 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head. Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds
For multiple hatches, un-synced, while macroing and microing? There is a reason why even the best zergs in the world don't have 100% injection up time. But its not just that, you can tell when the injection poped, because you can see the larvae rise. You CAN'T tell when it's GOING TO pop, you don't have a display if you got five seconds or twenty. And having this information would RAISE the skill ceiling on zerg macro. It would give the best players another tool to plan and improve on their macro cycles.
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The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill.
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On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill.
It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. It's not about injecting on time, you can see the larvae pop for that, it's about planning ahead to that time.
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On October 22 2018 22:39 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:27 TrashPanda wrote:On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head. Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds For multiple hatches, un-synced, while macroing and microing? There is a reason why even the best zergs in the world don't have 100% injection up time. But its not just that, you can tell when the injection poped, because you can see the larvae rise. You CAN'T tell when it's GOING TO pop, you don't have a display if you got five seconds or twenty. And having this information would RAISE the skill ceiling on zerg macro. It would give the best players another tool to plan and improve on their macro cycles. You do know that you can stack injects, right? Having near perfect uptime on injects isn't really that hard even for a beginner like me (low diamond zerg last season), unless something forces me to use my queens otherwise.
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TrashPanda confirmed better than most progamers who float hundreds of minerals around 90 supply in ZvT :o
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On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't.
The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level.
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On October 22 2018 22:47 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:39 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:27 TrashPanda wrote:On October 22 2018 22:21 IcemanAsi wrote:
I mean, why show supply? why show how many minerals you have? you can just have people figure it out in their head. Hatchery injection is CORE information for zerg, not having it is, well, a bug.
It's way easier to figure out Hatch inject timings in your head though, like just use the ingame clock or something, it's no rocket science to inject every 30 seconds For multiple hatches, un-synced, while macroing and microing? There is a reason why even the best zergs in the world don't have 100% injection up time. But its not just that, you can tell when the injection poped, because you can see the larvae rise. You CAN'T tell when it's GOING TO pop, you don't have a display if you got five seconds or twenty. And having this information would RAISE the skill ceiling on zerg macro. It would give the best players another tool to plan and improve on their macro cycles. You do know that you can stack injects, right? Having near perfect uptime on injects isn't really that hard even for a beginner like me (low diamond zerg last season), unless something forces me to use my queens otherwise.
Yeah, and again, it isn't about that. It's about knowing, ahead of time, when the inject will pop. And having that information displayed, while having multiple hatches selected.
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On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level.
At this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it will give the best players more information they could leverage to even greater heights, you don't. Not much more to add.
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I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
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On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level. That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you.
It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking.
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On October 22 2018 23:06 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level. That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you. It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking. A top Zerg already knows when they have to inject without an indicator. This change would punish them by not rewarding a skill they have which lesser Zergs don't have.
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On October 22 2018 23:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:06 Sakat wrote:On October 22 2018 22:49 Fango wrote:On October 22 2018 22:46 IcemanAsi wrote:On October 22 2018 22:45 Fango wrote: The game doesn't need more QoL changes. Pros are difficult enough to separate as it is.
Being able to inject on time is a skill. Some players are better than others because they have that skill. It's a QoL change that increases the skill ceiling. The best players would use it to be even better. Bullshit. Skill ceiling is relative. This would mean players who already have the ability to inject close to the ideal time would no longer have the advantage over players who can't. The best players wouldn't get better, they'd be almost the same (well I guess they'd be a bit better). It would simply boost lesser players closer to their level. That's simply wrong, a UI change would not do injects for you, it wouldn't suddenly make you Serral. All it would do is provide an indicator as to how long until the next larvae pops. LIka a warp-gate that provides an indicator for how long you have to wait until you can warp-in again. It doesn't do the warp-in for you. It doesn't make it easier to do any of the actions, just makes it easier to see when you are lacking. A top Zerg already knows when they have to inject without an indicator. This change would punish them by not rewarding a skill they have which lesser Zergs don't have.
That's demonstrably false, pro zerg players DO NOT have one hundred percent inject times. This would enable them to be better and to also plan ahead, which they can do much better then lower tier players.
I personally assume that this increase in information to plan ahead would outweigh the benefits of improved injects by lower tier players, you don't. Not much more we can say beyond testing this.
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I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
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On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote: I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
Well said! Thanks for the input.
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As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed.
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On October 22 2018 23:41 Vutalisk wrote: As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed.
The indicator isn't for canceling hatches, it's for displaying when a hatchery is ready to be injected again, much like the warpgate indicator that displays how long until a warpgate is ready to warp in another unit.
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this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer.
On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP.
However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players.
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You can bounce between bases as it is right now with camera hotkeys to monitor the timer. Just as protoss or terran do to monitor their SCV production. The "tap" has changed since days passed. You're not tapping between 5 and 4 to monitor an SCV building and a Marine building, for example. You're using your F-Keys to see how close something is to being done. This requires you to look back at your base. Zerg should be doing the same. It's a huge part of what makes this game what it is.
Sorry, the information you're looking for with the timer already exists, and by design it requires you to expend attention and look for it. More bases, more places to check. It's a truly a function of design in this game and it doesn't need to be made any easier.
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On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. This is correct, though OP just doesn't know how to express his point. He means that the level of play will increase because pros will have more effecient injects or something. That's an interesting view of quality of play though. I guess having workers auto-mine also increases the quality of play for you, but in my opinion it doesn't. For most people, the level of your play is determined by your talent/skill - how you go above and beyond what the game provides you to create and execute strategies and tactics.
In a sense then, lowering the skill ceiling can decrease the level of play, since it prevents players from being good at certain things (since the game does it for them).
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On October 22 2018 23:44 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:41 Vutalisk wrote: As a Z, it is nice to have but completely necessary? I think not. I rarely missed canceling a hatch. Mostly of the time, as a Z, you need to cancel a hatch when you try to get a third in ZvZ due to lings harass or a forth in ZvT due to marine tanks pushing. I always pay attention to a spawning hatch anyway and the alarm should prompt me to look at it and cancel if needed. The indicator isn't for canceling hatches, it's for displaying when a hatchery is ready to be injected again, much like the warpgate indicator that displays how long until a warpgate is ready to warp in another unit. That is even worse. Nowadays, everyone uses stacked injects. Not sure why you need to pay attention to that at all.
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I would have guessed that sc2 fans are not against any small qol change considering that balance gets altered all the time by way bigger changes. Though maybe the ones against qol changes are against patches as well, might be the case. Point is, any change will obviously impact the difficulty of playing the game in some way respective to other races and players and therefore change "balance" and player hirarchy. Some would be so small (like this one) that it doesn't really matter though. The change which made it easier to see how many workers you have was way bigger and in the end it seems like it didn't really impact the game in a negative way. With that being said i am somewhat scared that these small changes would lead to bigger ones in the future (like automated splitting, automated injecting, etc). So it's definitely a case by case thing and probably good to at least be sceptical of any change. Not completely close minded though, which a lot of posters showcase here
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On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote: I don't personally agree with changes like these(I also liked not having the number of workers displayed above CCs/Nexi/Hatch's but I'm fine with being the odd one out), but I see why others do like and agree with the suggestion. Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change.
Personally, I enjoy hidden information in my gameplay, broadcasting, etc. I see it as a form of problem solving and when the game adds on another piece of readily available information onto the UI, I feel like that part of how we solve problems in the game gets that much smaller and less interactive. I understand that not many people view limited UIs that way in relation to how many tend to see them as annoying limitations that are holding back players from having smoother, more enjoyable interactions with the game itself.
If they added this, I doubt it would shake too much up, much like auto-mining at the start and a displayed worker count didn't shake up much, but it would chip away a little more at one of my personal blocks of fun. Despite this, I do think a majority of players would find it to be a welcoming addition to the game that would allow them to dedicate more time to what they find to be enjoyable. It's hard to vote yes for something you know would make your gaming experience less fun overall, but when taking the entire playbase into consideration, I think it would be a better change for well over half the population, and I would be willing to give it a try if and only if protoss and terran are given something similar to keep the UI on as equal a playing field as possible for all 3 races.
Although I completely agree with you, as not providing certain information via UI makes for very subtle differences in skill (e.g. having to box mineral-mining workers manually to count and check the saturation or not having a border around the scan radius, because that stuff is something you can get really good at guessing/feeling out by simply playing a lot, let's call it 'trained intuition'), I feel we are beating a dead horse here, as the majority of people wants things to be easier instead of harder.
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Zerg and protoss already received massive QoL buffs. And when i say QoL, i mean "making the game easier mechanically for no reason but to make it easier". Now protosses and zerg can F2 around with overseer/observers "sieged" to keep vision, with the HTs in the deathball, and while queueing injects.
This isn't a balance complain in the defense of terran : I simply think it's a terrible idea to make the game mechanically easier for the sake of making it mechanically easier. Having crisp injects was once a way for pro zergs to distinguish themselves, allowing for instance some players to play heavy lings styles that now disappeared because the game had to be balanced around zerg having much more consistant injects than in WOL-HOTS. Excellent HT control was once a way for pro protosses to distinguish themselves, excellent observer positioning and the capacity for pros to move them around without misscontrolling was a way for pros to distinguish themselves.
Those "QoL" changes are nonsense.
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It does it for warpgates already if i m not mistaken? So i dont see an issue with doing it for hatches too
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On October 23 2018 02:04 WGT-Baal wrote: It does it for warpgates already if i m not mistaken? So i dont see an issue with doing it for hatches too
Exactly my thought from the begining. I can't see why it didn't pop up before in this discussion. I hope people against that idea are also against the warpgate timer. And every spell timer by the way. The only race less concerned about that kind of stuff is Terran maybe. That would be more or less like adding a timer on barracks for the unit production. And that would make sense too.
Protoss basic prod relates on warpgate which is almost instantaneous and show a timer. Zerg production relates on larvae. You produce as many as you want as long you have larvae. The timer would then do the same as for the warpgate, show when your larvae are available + planning ahead for injecting. Terran produce units one by one and the only indicator is a small square that shows that building is producing. I wouldn't mind if they also got a timer.
I don't feel like it would lower the skill ceiling anyway. In my case (low-mid diamond), I miss injects because of multitask problems. I would have the same problems with or without the timer. It is just an extra info that can be usefull to know when future larvae will pop up and to plan in advance.
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thank you for posting iceman. i know it's difficult getting shot down in almost senseless ways, or seeing the effort not close to par. sorry for the long post. i'm in a different camp for the suggestion though and based on the arguments, this is the statement i agree with the most:
On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: ...Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do.
On October 22 2018 17:37 IcemanAsi wrote: ...At the moment there is no quick way to see where all your injects are. You literally can't plan for when the larvae will pop without individually checking each hatch. this is where the main point of contention lies, i think. first of all, there is a quick way and you can check with one click of a button and a little bit of preparation. if the argument is that great players have never done it flawlessly then that is also a bit of a misnomer and discredits some of the decision making in some of the most perfect games of starcraft played.
simply put, starcraft is about reminding yourself to do things and to create a priority system on what is important and what is not. an example of what is not important is controlling units to maximize their lifetime, in other words over-controlling. the value and importance of this goes up as player skill does as units will be made and placed in position at more opportune moments and for longer; sometimes strategies or tactics hinge on getting damage done at specific points in time with the few units that you made, but for the most part there are more pressing things to put focus to until you become adept at everything at once. for this same little priority system, you will see queen energy go up or hatcheries go some time without injects, and creep tumors unattended/unused. this can easily happen because there are things that are much more taxing during the game and things that are much more impactful to do requiring your immediate attention for the extended amount of time it requires of you; which further requires you to practice each skill in near isolation and results in making everything easier to do. this does not mean that it wouldn't be absolutely ideal to have players able to do everything at once, or to have a helper for the mental planning to that effect, but it does mean that there is a skill requirement created with how the game currently is by having a player constantly fumble with prioritization. it's part of what makes the game dynamic from game to game, it's part of what made SCBW one of the most balanced and creative games because of the impossibility of playing an absolutely perfect game.
i'm just putting this out there, but on the inject timings themselves, if injects are done quickly in cycles--and i understand that even the best players mess this up often enough--checking one hatchery is sufficient enough to see progress on all of them. i don't view these sets of actions as too much or too little. with knowledge you can reduce the time it takes to inject the three hatcheries (and let's be honest, most players will only ever inject these three or four hatcheries) and to check the progress on them is one swift motion that is made easier by being diligent at the former actions of injecting them. ie. being fast and accurate at the injects and understanding that it lines up this way. it becomes a pendulum in the background that slowly but surely falls silent as the game goes on. and that's perfectly fine because at points you'll have more larvae than you can spend for certain styles of play, and that's enough for most players to not care about maximizing further. there is also a "counter-play" to the inefficiencies of it, and that is creating macro hatches and more queens which is hardly an incredible investment as the other races are seen doing things like this too. (extra orbitals, extra gateways, extra production in general). we have always flirted with the idea with having less or doing more with less, but it never required cutting extra production. it's a cushion for the mistakes you know you are bound to make, and it is also a skill to account for them entirely, with nothing to say about the original idea itself.
professionals can mess this up and i know it can seem silly, but these things have happened since starcraft 1 and will continue to happen in all RTS and all games. the best players always have something to practice that may seem obvious to many other people. i've taught the game to many people of all levels and one of the biggest things to focus on has always been self diligence and having self-learned patterns for little game details. and this detail of having to inject in cycles (sometimes running into the problem of losing the timing or being forced to do so) is hardly unfair because there are many ways to make it easier for the two or three ways methods that people already use, and many ways to plan for an eventual hiccup.
the change you're suggesting is simple enough and it seems even anachronistic to not have it, but touching on your OP and the very first quote in my post, i just don't think it's necessary. i still do think it will take away too much from what players can already easily practice or otherwise, will be a mechanic that goes unused entirely, even by players who ask for it and know how to use it. ease of use does not mean it will get used in meaningful ways on average, even if a good amount of players will be able to benefit in a good way.
TL;DR So why not do it? it doesn't contribute to winrates so much as due diligence and specific practice does. it does bring the skill bar closer to relative even among zerg players when management of this main production mechanic is already easy as is. there is decision making that is inherent to being unable to do everything perfectly and it includes this mechanic as well, while the skill is to reduce mistakes (as in any game) and leverage what you can so you can play a winning playstyle of your very own. i'm not against even removing warpgate timers to add the action of having to mouse over and click on a gateway to check cooldown on one individual gate (as an reminder for all other gateways that were used in the same way/timing). i think it is a form of cognitive dissonance to vy consistently (for example) for QoL for something that is practiced in all (zerg) SC2 games and currently rewards you in different (obvious or non-obvious) ways for doing so.
if there were an expensive unit or general addition you could make in another RTS that would help greatly in reminding you to do stuff, players would almost always err on the side of not using it because of the extra cost attached. in this case, there wouldn't be any and that is what i would disagree with the most. having everything line up through efforts of my own is also part of my fun with the game and i think something that most people i've played with have also realized over time for themselves.
i do understand that some players (and some who haven't thought about it yet) want to remove the chore of it. hypothetically if the change came around (and many other similar QoL changes to follow), players would adapt (as they always do)--some even leaving with the direction the game seems to be taking, and some having more fun because of it. i'm the opinion that with a game that requires mastery, the fun had strictly with more ease doesn't last longer than the fun produced from having to conquer the difficulties.
and off topic,
On October 22 2018 21:43 Rodya wrote: ...When buliding a pylon, you should be able to see an overlay which tells you what the energy field that it covers would be. i know it's a mostly facetious comment but for people who aren't aware, it already does this, unless you're looking for more. it displays coverage on the step that you choose to build a pylon but haven't yet placed it. if this is supposed to be a complicated visual thing where it drops down and shows which gateways it powers from the HUD, that would be redundant for what i think are obvious reasons.
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On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
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This would be cool. Not too useful, actually, because injects stack, so you only miss the first one ever, unless you're behind a complete cycle.
But as everything else that makes the game difficult to play just to reward repetitive training instead of actually understanding the game, manual injects should go away completely (together with splitting, stutter-step, focus-fire and so on).
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On October 23 2018 03:17 Haukinger wrote: This would be cool. Not too useful, actually, because injects stack, so you only miss the first one ever, unless you're behind a complete cycle.
But as everything else that makes the game difficult to play just to reward repetitive training instead of actually understanding the game, manual injects should go away completely (together with splitting, stutter-step, focus-fire and so on). how do you automate focus-fire?
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing.
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
And that is your greatest problem - that you automatically think everyone enjoys the game for what you like in it. I enjoy it despite the household chores and I am quite clearly not the only one, seeing as other people who want those streamlined exist. There is just so much more to the game than mindless clicking, but people like you somehow stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that.
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I don't think this is necessary, but I do recommend setting a timer on your phone if you want to get into the habit of doing injects. It worked for me back in the day.
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA.
Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me.
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On October 23 2018 05:29 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me. I'm not telling anyone to leave - I'm just wondering why they're still here if they don't like the fundamentals of the genre.
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On October 23 2018 06:29 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 05:29 StasisField wrote:On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. Don't you think telling people that if they don't enjoy the genre for the same reasons that you do that they should leave to be kind of close-minded? I mean, is your view of the genre really so perfect that you won't even talk to people with respect and have a genuine dialogue with them? That's a pretty counter-productive way of thinking if you ask me. I'm not telling anyone to leave - I'm just wondering why they're still here if they don't like the fundamentals of the genre.
You are most certainly telling people to leave. If you were actually wondering why they were here despite not liking one aspect of the genre, you would have asked that. Instead, you told people that if they didn't like it, there was another genre of game they should look to instead. Don't sit here and insult my intelligence by trying to lie to me.
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I wasn't sure what to think of this suggestion until I read nanaoei 's post, very well written and I have to say I'm convinced. If you keep a steady cycle there is an easy way of checking the progress. More importantly how to manage injects and being on top of their status is an actual skill that involves a lot of different nuances.
I'm for quality of life changes but I believe there is a clear distinction between mindless repetition and actions that also contain other facets of choice and decision making. Not saying there should be no mindless repetition just that some of those are the uninteresting apm sinks that might not be needed for the enjoyment and balance of the game.
Also as Statis fittingly wrote so well earlier:
On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote: Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change. Saying that others that disagree with you about the design of SC2 or what is the "right" way to ejoy SC2 should leave for a different game pretty much falls in line with being the kind of poster described above.
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On October 23 2018 07:46 Shuffleblade wrote:I wasn't sure what to think of this suggestion until I read nanaoei 's post, very well written and I have to say I'm convinced. If you keep a steady cycle there is an easy way of checking the progress. More importantly how to manage injects and being on top of their status is an actual skill that involves a lot of different nuances. I'm for quality of life changes but I believe there is a clear distinction between mindless repetition and actions that also contain other facets of choice and decision making. Not saying there should be no mindless repetition just that some of those are the uninteresting apm sinks that might not be needed for the enjoyment and balance of the game. Also as Statis fittingly wrote so well earlier: Show nested quote +On October 22 2018 23:22 StasisField wrote: Those of you who are making ridiculous statements claiming that the game might as well play itself are doing nothing but poisoning the well of discussion. If you're not willing to portray an honest representation of the opposition's stance and opinions and would rather make ridiculous slippery slope fallacies as examples to "disprove" the validity of the other side, why are you even in the discussion to begin with? You clearly don't want to actually talk about the merits of such a change. Saying that others that disagree with you about the design of SC2 or what is the "right" way to ejoy SC2 should leave for a different game pretty much falls in line with being the kind of poster described above.
EDIT: my mistake, thought you were calling me out!
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On October 23 2018 03:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing. Okay so you don't like everything that isn't fighting. Go install Battlerite - you'll never get the urge to play an RTS or MOBA again.
Economic "chores", as you call them are staples of the RTS genre - they are what make it an RTS and not some kind of strategic military simulator.
As someone else said, zergs ALREADY HAVE the information that OP is asking for - use camera hotkeys.
As a protoss player, I agree that protoss/zerg have gotten way too many "quality of life" buffs (because that's what they are - buffs). I feel bad for Terrans, but also am jealous of them because for me it's too easy to not miss warp-in cycles among other things as previously mentioned. If I weren't mostly playing Remastered now I would consider switching to Terran because it is by far the most untouched race.
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
It would make sense to have it in the same way you see warp in cooldowns for warpgates. I don't see how it can be negative, but it is no biggie either way.
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I think it's a nice qol change. I'm for it
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This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting.
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On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc.
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On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. or you can play SC2 or SC64 or Red Alert 3. Less repetitive lame economic household chores and more emphasis on tactical decision making.
economic household chores such as gathering 2 SCVs and putting them on minerals is boring; this is why Browder replaced "in base chores" of BW with in-base tactical decision making such as the choice between calling down a MULE or using the CC energy for a Scan.
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If we want this then we should probably revert stacking injects.
A better change in my opinion would be to display mana bars for spellcastes in the unit select panel, and have that mana bar light up a different color when the unit has enough mana for any spell, which should let players easily eyeball which queens can inject, which templars can storm, which ghosts can snipe.
QoL changes are always the best when they apply to all races
Edit: Warpgates have this asked feature because you can't tell their progress unless you click them. Injected hatcheries display a little bar next to their health, so they don't really need it.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
I agree, it would be benefitial. But I don't get the negative reactions, have you tried to play the Zerg? I am in a platinum league and I can hit injects just by muscle memory on time. If this change doesn't help me to be better in macro, how this would help higher level players? (playing P2 - D3 as unranked)
From my view this change is awesome for lower level players to learn them how to macro and for those, who have their inner OCD triggered by this inconsistency It's the same as worker count - for high league players this didn't make any change, they already could estimate the number just by seeing the mineral lines and gases.
TL, DR, awesome change, won't affect higher leagues, would be benefitial to get lower league players better
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TL paints such a bleak picture of professional Zerg players who have no place in the game to show their mastery except inject timings. It truly sounds like the rest of the race is happening on autoplay because apparently players can't distinguish themselves anywhere else.
There will always be other areas of the game where additional attention will be focused on and as a watcher I'd rather see the impact of that than "watching" players do perfect injects with slightly less information.
All these posts bringing out the good old slippery slope of "why not just automate the entire game then" just admit they either have poor reading comprehension or no good arguments at all.
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I am not against the feature. However I don't think it would have a huge impact. The queens show how much energy they have after all.
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If you develop a good macro cycle this is meaningless. You should be going to your bases more often then this will not be an issue. If you arent good enough to be returning to your hatcheries regularly to inject adding a timer does nothing. This is an argument for both sides.
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On October 23 2018 08:54 Rodya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing. Okay so you don't like everything that isn't fighting. Go install Battlerite - you'll never get the urge to play an RTS or MOBA again. Economic "chores", as you call them are staples of the RTS genre - they are what make it an RTS and not some kind of strategic military simulator. As someone else said, zergs ALREADY HAVE the information that OP is asking for - use camera hotkeys. As a protoss player, I agree that protoss/zerg have gotten way too many "quality of life" buffs (because that's what they are - buffs). I feel bad for Terrans, but also am jealous of them because for me it's too easy to not miss warp-in cycles among other things as previously mentioned. If I weren't mostly playing Remastered now I would consider switching to Terran because it is by far the most untouched race.
I am really not sure how you come to all of these conclusions, so arbitrary and random. I only like fighting? Where did i state that? I called it "economic chores" ? No i did not. I simply responded to a silly post. Moba titles also have "economic chores" depending on the game you play. In dota and lol you need to lasthit to get money, different game implement this core element differently was the point. Yes ofc qol changes are slight buffs in a sense, it's way less of a buff than any actual balance changes though as i explained previously. So it is kinda perplexing that sc2 players are arguing that vehemently against these small changes when blizzard regularly changes way bigger things. It is still not "easy" to not miss macro cycles, did you ever hear of "zest macro" ? That's a player who made gsl finals and he oftentimes macros sloppily even with these indicators. Your whole post is really bad
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 23 2018 21:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 08:54 Rodya wrote:On October 23 2018 03:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 23 2018 03:01 Charoisaur wrote:On October 23 2018 00:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:this is an interesting suggestion. i'm not a zerg player. i'm slightly against it. it is interesting though.. how far do we take automating "economic household chores". We have auto-mining and worker #s... how much further do we go? That is never an easy question to answer. On October 22 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: I really feel like you don't understand how skill ceilings work. Generally any change that benefits lesser players to a greater extent/makes the game easier, is an indirect nerf to the top players.
You're removing part of the skill required to know and optimise inject timings. That's a skill that separates better players from lesser ones. Doing so would absolutely lower the skill ceiling. Pros can already "plan ahead" like you say, its just more difficult to do. i'm not sure i agree with the change in the OP. However, I do like things like auto-mining and worker #s on the Main base. This allows players to focus on cool army micro and spend less energy doing "economic household chores". In Brood War, taking idle SCVs and putting them on minerals was boring and repetitive and a lame way to differentiate good players from bad players. I thought we're playing RTS games because we like doing "economic household chores"? For the people who like RTS games but find those chores boring there has been a new genre created called MOBA. What kind of argument is that, it is about the implementation of these elements. Mobas have it as well btw, it is called csing. Okay so you don't like everything that isn't fighting. Go install Battlerite - you'll never get the urge to play an RTS or MOBA again. Economic "chores", as you call them are staples of the RTS genre - they are what make it an RTS and not some kind of strategic military simulator. As someone else said, zergs ALREADY HAVE the information that OP is asking for - use camera hotkeys. As a protoss player, I agree that protoss/zerg have gotten way too many "quality of life" buffs (because that's what they are - buffs). I feel bad for Terrans, but also am jealous of them because for me it's too easy to not miss warp-in cycles among other things as previously mentioned. If I weren't mostly playing Remastered now I would consider switching to Terran because it is by far the most untouched race. I am really not sure how you come to all of these conclusions, so arbitrary and random. I only like fighting? Where did i state that? I called it "economic chores" ? No i did not. I simply responded to a silly post. Moba titles also have "economic chores" depending on the game you play. In dota and lol you need to lasthit to get money, different game implement this core element differently was the point. Yes ofc qol changes are slight buffs in a sense, it's way less of a buff than any actual balance changes though as i explained previously. So it is kinda perplexing that sc2 players are arguing that vehemently against these small changes when blizzard regularly changes way bigger things. It is still not "easy" to not miss macro cycles, did you ever hear of "zest macro" ? That's a player who made gsl finals and he oftentimes macros sloppily even with these indicators. Your whole post is really bad Zest macro doesn't apply for Zerg IMO as this is a totally different mechanics. Once you have queens you have to hit the injects(or build more hatcheries ). This is like missing chrono cycles and even this comparison is bad. On the level we're talking about it can't change anything. It's similar to the workers change(workers above gas/nexus), masters and above didn't need that, it was QOL for lower league players. Damn, even I was able to tell how many workers I have in gas/minerals just by looking and I am Diamond pleb. I don't look at the number nowadays either, sure, it helps to catch my attention at later stages of the game, but I can see oversaturation even without it.
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On October 23 2018 10:57 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc.
How is adding a visual indicator that high level players won't even look at comparable to any of these mechanics? Why is everyone here up on their soapbox being so insane about how a tiny little box showing inject timer is a gamebreaking change? It's really not. Anyone who is plat+ will just know when to inject, and this is a good change for lower tier players and will visualize the time between injects, especially when injects are staggered.
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On October 24 2018 00:53 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 10:57 IshinShishi wrote:On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc. How is adding a visual indicator that high level players won't even look at comparable to any of these mechanics? Why is everyone here up on their soapbox being so insane about how a tiny little box showing inject timer is a gamebreaking change? It's really not. Anyone who is plat+ will just know when to inject, and this is a good change for lower tier players and will visualize the time between injects, especially when injects are staggered. The reasons people are advocating for changes like these would also apply to things like auto splits, auto build workers etc. The idea that it takes no strategic thought and is just something you have to do.
While a timer on it's own isn't gamebreaking, consistent QoL changes like this do nothing but make the game easier. And that isn't a good thing. And sadly blizz seem to like adding them lately.
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On October 24 2018 00:53 vult wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 10:57 IshinShishi wrote:On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc. How is adding a visual indicator that high level players won't even look at comparable to any of these mechanics? Why is everyone here up on their soapbox being so insane about how a tiny little box showing inject timer is a gamebreaking change? It's really not. Anyone who is plat+ will just know when to inject, and this is a good change for lower tier players and will visualize the time between injects, especially when injects are staggered. I think you've just answered your own question here :D. I personally lose track of inject cycles a lot during games, and looking at unit tab would be way faster than having to look at your base. I actually find it quite surprising how people who claim to be low diamond or below also claim to have seemingly much better inject management than I do at low master.
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On October 23 2018 03:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 03:17 Haukinger wrote: This would be cool. Not too useful, actually, because injects stack, so you only miss the first one ever, unless you're behind a complete cycle.
But as everything else that makes the game difficult to play just to reward repetitive training instead of actually understanding the game, manual injects should go away completely (together with splitting, stutter-step, focus-fire and so on). how do you automate focus-fire?
Make priorities situational, not just per unit type. Example: a burrowed (scanned) baneling not in the path could easily be given a lower priority than a baneling rolling towards a marine. To take things a bit further, give the player the option to adjust the priority rules to his liking.
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On October 24 2018 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 10:57 IshinShishi wrote:On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc. The reasons people are advocating for changes like these would also apply to things like auto splits, auto build workers etc. The idea that it takes no strategic thought and is just something you have to do. While a timer on it's own isn't gamebreaking, consistent QoL changes like this do nothing but make the game easier. And that isn't a good thing. And sadly blizz seem to like adding them lately.
The opposite is true. Making the game easier, as you like to call it, is a good thing. If you want it to be artificially difficult, just play without keyboard, fully zoomed in, without area-selection... there are loads of stuff in the game that make the game "easier", but truth is, it does not become easier.
It becomes harder.
And that is because the difficulty you like can be overcome by mechanical training. Like simple, physical sports - if you cycle 50000km a year for a few years, you can ride along at the tour de france. And you get visibly better from day to day. Now, if you remove the mechanical part, you suddenly do not become better anymore just by playing. You have to understand the game, think and plan better to get better. And that's a lot harder than just sitting down and playing.
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I mean this is a ui thing across the board, Barracks don't show how close a unit is to completion on the selection tab only if its qued or not, command centers don't show if they have more than 50 energy banked and Terran has missed a mule, nexus don't show if they have more than 50 energy banked and toss has missed a chrono. frankly I'm ok with this information not being displayed. People say that managing these mechanics is just a dumb chore, but its not. Players don't have infinite apm and knowing when and where you can commit the time to go back to your base and check that you have injects up, check that you can mule, check that you can chrono, check that you are building all the units you could be is a core aspect of the game. Part of the strategy of starcraft 2 is determining how to best spend your limited amount of actions at any given time to gain the biggest advantage possible in the current game. Distributing apm is a core part of the strategy of rts games. Granted SC2 is more accessible than games like brood war and that's fine, it gives it a lower barrier for entry, but I'm also fine with where that barrier is right now, we don't need to lower the bar more and make it easier to know where and when to spend your apm on certain things in the game.
I say this as a player who struggles sometimes due to my low apm for my league, I can only play at 240 apm at my absolute best and in masters 3 and 2 where I reside that is alot lower than most. I supply block myself, float minerals, miss macro cycles, don't always check the minimap, lose units and workers unessarily, all the normal noob mistakes slow people in this game make. But I don't want the game to be dumbed down for slower players like myself, Part of what makes sc2 beautiful and fun is the mechanical challenge of the game, although its lower than its brood war counterpart no one is truly at the point where they can do everything at all times, Even the strongest pros are known to make occasional mistakes in macro and when situations are tense you do see pros miss things, that's why zergling runbyes work, that's why multi prong drops work, People cant manage everything that the game and thier opponent demands of them at the same time that's an important aspect of how the game functions. Sure UI changes might make the player base universally "better" in that everyone gets closer to the ideal level of top pro play, but why do we need that? if two players are equally matched they should be able to enjoy the game despite their macro mistakes, and if they are not well then the player who knows how to use there apm better deserves that advantage Its a core aspect of the game that needs to stay.
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On October 24 2018 02:24 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 01:10 Fango wrote:On October 23 2018 10:57 IshinShishi wrote:On October 23 2018 10:51 Malongo wrote: This is not an strategic skill, I don´t get why people think making a better UI could make the game less interesting. By that logic we could implement things like auto splitting bio, auto muling enable/disable, better siege tank AI, auto focus fire critical units, etc. The reasons people are advocating for changes like these would also apply to things like auto splits, auto build workers etc. The idea that it takes no strategic thought and is just something you have to do. While a timer on it's own isn't gamebreaking, consistent QoL changes like this do nothing but make the game easier. And that isn't a good thing. And sadly blizz seem to like adding them lately. The opposite is true. Making the game easier, as you like to call it, is a good thing. If you want it to be artificially difficult, just play without keyboard, fully zoomed in, without area-selection... there are loads of stuff in the game that make the game "easier", but truth is, it does not become easier. It becomes harder. And that is because the difficulty you like can be overcome by mechanical training. Like simple, physical sports - if you cycle 50000km a year for a few years, you can ride along at the tour de france. And you get visibly better from day to day. Now, if you remove the mechanical part, you suddenly do not become better anymore just by playing. You have to understand the game, think and plan better to get better. And that's a lot harder than just sitting down and playing.
Here's the thing I think alot of players don't get and that Day9 said very well when he was talking about broodwar. "Understanding when and where to use your apm is a part of the strategy of the game." (paraphrasing)
Good players do increase there apm by practicing alot and getting better mechanically but mechanics is not all about raw speed, Good mechanical players don't just do everything all the time, no one even maru is good enough to do that. Good players think and plan about what is and is not important to do in a given situation and put there apm into the most critical things at any given time. In RTS games managing time is a key aspect of the game hence the real time strategy label.
Time is a resource and knowing how to best use your limited action at a given time to get the most value is a core skill of the game.It Just like how if you watch a blitz chess match the games are messy and even really good players make mistakes but the most interesting aspect of blitz chess is how players manage there time to make the best decisions. and this is a game where there is no apm no constant things to think about doing, but having a clock on you having a limit on what you can do completey changes the landscape of what the game looks like. Starcraft is Like this but morso, because you have all these "chores" that you need to do it makes the game harder no only in that you need to be fast enough to keep up on the chores but you need to know what chores are and are not worth doing, You need to think hrm I'm in the middle of a fight, is it a higher value play right at this instant to go back to my base do my 30-45 second macro cycle go back to my army and micro or to invest all my time into this attack. Is it a higher value play for me to try to get 1 or 2 more workers with my oracle or to make sure that I hit my chrono on time? Time is a resource just like minerals and gas and its an important expression of skill that players can show that they can manage it effectively.
People think that the best players just do everything perfectly with no mistakes and to some extent they do, that's why they are the best players but they also know how to line up all there production, harassment, micro, base building, scouting actions,looking at the minimap, ect so that they squeeze the absolute most out of the large but not unlimited amount of actions they can use. If you don't like this aspect of rts why are you playing it to begin with? there are plenty of tbs games that provide alot of interesting strategic decisions and don't require alot of raw apm. Poker is very similar to starcraft if you were to take all the mechanics out of the game, so why don't you go play poker and leave RTS to those of us that like RTS?My guess is that you do actually enjoy the realtime element. maybe you just don't recognize that you do and that's why you are on this forum in the first place. If you dumb it down to much it becomes bland, unexciting, you lose the tense feeling and action that a fast paced rts game provides and it losses its identity. Granted with the proposed change its not that big a deal I will admit that, Players will find new things to do with their time management skill, I'm not hugely against this kind of change. What I am against is how you and other people in this thread are arguing for this kind of change by arguing that strategy and time management are separate and unrelated skills when they are deeply intertwined in this game.
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On October 23 2018 16:14 deacon.frost wrote:I agree, it would be benefitial. But I don't get the negative reactions, have you tried to play the Zerg? I am in a platinum league and I can hit injects just by muscle memory on time. If this change doesn't help me to be better in macro, how this would help higher level players? (playing P2 - D3 as unranked) From my view this change is awesome for lower level players to learn them how to macro and for those, who have their inner OCD triggered by this inconsistency It's the same as worker count - for high league players this didn't make any change, they already could estimate the number just by seeing the mineral lines and gases. TL, DR, awesome change, won't affect higher leagues, would be beneficial to get lower league players better
All these people saying they have near perfect macro in diamond and plat and yet I make a ton of macro mistakes on all my races and I'm masters with Terran and Random. = (
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On October 24 2018 03:14 washikie wrote: Here's the thing I think alot of players don't get and that Day9 said very well when he was talking about broodwar. "Understanding when and where to use your apm is a part of the strategy of the game." (paraphrasing)
Here's exactly the misunderstanding on your side: if there wasn't a single mechanical chore, all those precious apm could be spent on meaningful things. If every click mattered, and a single command could make you lose the game if given a second too early or too late, the game would not only be more demanding to play but also more exciting to watch. If you tune down the mechanical aspect, the game gets more exciting. If you increase mechanical difficulty, it gets more boring.
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On October 24 2018 04:17 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 03:14 washikie wrote: Here's the thing I think alot of players don't get and that Day9 said very well when he was talking about broodwar. "Understanding when and where to use your apm is a part of the strategy of the game." (paraphrasing) Here's exactly the misunderstanding on your side: if there wasn't a single mechanical chore, all those precious apm could be spent on meaningful things. If every click mattered, and a single command could make you lose the game if given a second too early or too late, the game would not only be more demanding to play but also more exciting to watch. If you tune down the mechanical aspect, the game gets more exciting. If you increase mechanical difficulty, it gets more boring.
how is macro not meaningful? did you even read the rest of my post spending actions correctly is one of the most meaningful and skillful things you can do in this game. Having macro take up players time is one of the things that creates windows for players to interact with each other. If you could look at you army 100% of the time you would Greatly reduce the number of mistakes you can make with your army and the game would be a lot less interactive and interesting as a result.
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Well, I think Protoss has cooldown process bar on Warpgates icon :-)
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On October 24 2018 04:23 washikie wrote: how is macro not meaningful?
It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful.
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On October 25 2018 02:11 Haukinger wrote:It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful. I don't want to micro my units, it's meaningless, the game should do that itself. I don't want to setup my army positioning, it's meaningless, the game should do it itself. -You can't define what players have to do and what they choose to do, some people have more fun macroing and others have more fun microing.
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On October 25 2018 02:11 Haukinger wrote:It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful. . But you don't have to do macro on point all the time that's kind of the whole point of what I'm saying, Like yeah you have to macro but when you chose to do your cycle, and when you chose not to is an important part of the game. Deciding when to do what to get the biggest possible advantage is a core mechanic of RTS games. Time is a resource in Starcraft and its just as valuable if not more so than minerals and gas. Its very meaningful and impact full decision to decide that the value you gain from going back and managing your base, making sure everything is working, making sure you did not miss a beat Is going to be more important to the outcome of the game than ctrling the units you currently have to trade as efficiently as possible. Its this balancing act of knowing when your attentions are needed where that is a core part of the skill involved in this game. Having tasks that players have to juggle and weigh in importance at all times is what makes Starcraft the game it is.
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Well.. you can see energy on Command center & Nexis. Why would Zerg not have this ?
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I have few things to say that I think are relevant to this discussion.
Time is our most limited resource. Prioritizing actions are the core of real time strategy. The time it takes to do stuff is essential. I played BW before SC2. I liked BW better at first, but the user friendliness of SC2 soon grew on me. I am for most QoL changes. They are making things a tiny bit better for the players. The game does not get easier, since we are all playing each other. As long as humans are our opponents, the game will not get easier. We are measured relatively to other players. It is all relative, not absolute. If a change reduces the time needed for a task, that time will be spent on something else. Our opponents will also use that time for something. It is never a one way buff.
This change is not very big. If a zerg has missed injects, then the indicator wouldn't have helped anyway. If the zerg hit the injects, the indicator couldn't help. This indicator only affects injects if the zerg is too early and the queens are out of energy, since queens with energy could stack injects. If a player is using this indicator to time their injects, they are using a method that is not very time efficient. It is way better to learn the timing than to check every other second. Besides, if you want to check every other second, then you can check the energy of your queens. That method already exist. This change will mostly help the zerg see when the larvae are ready to be made into units. Already spawned larvae show up on the UI, the larvae-to-be do not say when they are arriving. The help of when is very situational. I, personally, can seldom use that information.
My opinion is that this change will affect almost nothing and it goes in par with protoss warpgates. Having consistency between races is good. Also, I think that all production facilities should show this, the problem being when a hatchery is both spawning larvae and researching/upgrading/making a queen. Adding this to all production would buff defender's advantage a bit. Terran would probably be aided the most by this. Seeing if units soon are ready would make it easier to micro a small group of units closer to newly produced units and thus gain a small advantage. I think that strengthening defenders advantage is a good thing. One of the reasons is that MSC, shield battery, bunker etc. are all defensive tools that a lot of people have been complaining about. This change would decrease the need for strong defensive tools a teeny, tiny bit. Another reason is that I like playing games that include clutch holds, no matter if I'm on the winning side or the losing side. A third reason being that I enjoy watching the progames that last more than 6 minutes.
Regarding the comments about showing whether or not units can use abilities: the UI is already showing if any unit in the selected group is able to use the ability. The UI does not tell which of the units, nor how many, but it does show if any at all can use the ability. This includes the use of chrono boost and mules, iirc. I would very much like it if the UI also showed the energy of each unit.
Regarding the game breaking buff that some people insinuates this to be, just look at all the changes that have happened to the game each november for the last few years. If any race is buffed by a change, another change will nerf it in some way.
For all you disrespectful people that offer flimsy arguments and fallacies: I am obviously biased since random is the best race and anyone not playing random should just change race if they are having problems. I am plat1 with 70 apm, 1v1 me! I warn you, I am better than your average player.
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On October 25 2018 04:18 FFW_Rude wrote: Well.. you can see energy on Command center & Nexis. Why would Zerg not have this ? you can see energy on queens
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Just don't make quenns and build more hatcheries.
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On October 25 2018 03:40 washikie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 02:11 Haukinger wrote:On October 24 2018 04:23 washikie wrote: how is macro not meaningful? It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful. . But you don't have to do macro on point all the time that's kind of the whole point of what I'm saying
More macro never hurts, so why not give all help to the player possible by automating automatable stuff, so that the player can concentrate on stuff that's so important and meaningful that it cannot be automated?
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On October 26 2018 01:24 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 03:40 washikie wrote:On October 25 2018 02:11 Haukinger wrote:On October 24 2018 04:23 washikie wrote: how is macro not meaningful? It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful. . But you don't have to do macro on point all the time that's kind of the whole point of what I'm saying More macro never hurts, so why not give all help to the player possible by automating automatable stuff, so that the player can concentrate on stuff that's so important and meaningful that it cannot be automated? You'e just described what actual starcraft hacks do
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People acting like a small timer on a small icon would break the game, its not like they are making injects freaking automatic guys (also you can already queu stack injects, so a change like this is super minimal and mostly QoL)
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On October 26 2018 02:13 Lexender wrote: People acting like a small timer on a small icon would break the game, its not like they are making injects freaking automatic guys (also you can already queu stack injects, so a change like this is super minimal and mostly QoL)
Thing is most of us are not arguing with the op about this ui change, though I'm not a fan for some aforementioned reasons. We are mostly arguing with the guys who want to go 100 times farther with this and automate many parts of macro. We as a community need to protect our feedback from getting mixed up by blizzard with these game destroying ideas.
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On October 26 2018 01:24 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 03:40 washikie wrote:On October 25 2018 02:11 Haukinger wrote:On October 24 2018 04:23 washikie wrote: how is macro not meaningful? It's not about macro or micro. It's about stuff that "you have to do" = meaningless and stuff that you chose to do = meaningful. . But you don't have to do macro on point all the time that's kind of the whole point of what I'm saying More macro never hurts, so why not give all help to the player possible by automating automatable stuff, so that the player can concentrate on stuff that's so important and meaningful that it cannot be automated?
More macro never hurts, but there are times when it is more important to be controlling your army (not dying to banelings or storm ect.). It is a difficult decision to make and most of the time you are better off macroing, but making the decision and not forgetting to go back to macroing is the difference between a good and bad player. Not to mention, this is what makes playing fast so important, so that you can do more.
If you don't like macro just play a MOBA or something. There are plenty of games that have micro and not macro. Starcraft is one of very few with meaningful macro. It shouldn't me automated at all.
I am for the change in the OP btw. That is not a matter of automation but one of information.
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On October 26 2018 04:15 ZackAttack wrote:If you don't like macro just play a MOBA or something. There are plenty of games that have micro and not macro. Starcraft is one of very few with meaningful macro. It shouldn't me automated at all.
I don't play starcraft, and I personally hate to watch micro, and I think it should not be in the game. As said before, all things automatable should not be in the game, neither micro nor macro.
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On October 27 2018 02:10 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 04:15 ZackAttack wrote:If you don't like macro just play a MOBA or something. There are plenty of games that have micro and not macro. Starcraft is one of very few with meaningful macro. It shouldn't me automated at all. I don't play starcraft, and I personally hate to watch micro, and I think it should not be in the game. As said before, all things automatable should not be in the game, neither micro nor macro.
If you don't even play the game why are you arguing on this forum? Why do you even care about the ui?
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On October 25 2018 05:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 04:18 FFW_Rude wrote: Well.. you can see energy on Command center & Nexis. Why would Zerg not have this ? you can see energy on queens
Oh yeah that's true lol
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