EPTMultiple Building Selection - Page 7
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 02:31 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Well hell people can type research reports at over 100 WORDS PER MINUTE. Is 150 apm really that much...no The people that type 100 words a minute are also scary. Drifting off topic a little bit, sure there are people that can write research reports at 100 words a minute, but does that automaticly make them better then someone that writes the report at 50 words a minute? I think multitasking should be important but I think it will be more interesting with blizzards new mechanics rather then limitations like having micro 20 gateways one by one. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
Come on... in sports, certain skills are required to be good. If you cannot keep up with a 300 APM Korean because he has trained and trained and mastered his timing and technique, you deserve to lose. If the game is simplified too much to the point where multitasking is easy, then the game no longer becomes competitive. Yes, I'm saying if YOU who practice much less can keep up with somebody who obviously practiced much more with relative ease, then everybody would be a freakin' pro. That = no fun = no competition = death of pro-sc2. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 02:55 Klogon wrote: And does running a marathon in 2 hours really better than running it in 20 hours? Come on... in sports, certain skills are required to be good. If you cannot keep up with a 300 APM Korean because he has trained and trained and mastered his timing and technique, you deserve to lose. If the game is simplified too much to the point where multitasking is easy, then the game no longer becomes competitive. Yes, I'm saying if YOU who practice much less can keep up with somebody who obviously practiced much more with relative ease, then everybody would be a freakin' pro. That = no fun = no competition = death of pro-sc2. You'll still have to be very good and practise alot. It's just that you won't need a huge APM to do tasks that should be really basic. Unit production and resource gathering are such basic parts of the game that they shouldn't require huge APMs. However you'll still need to know Exactly what you're doing and how to exploit your opponents weaknesses, practise wouldn't be devauled in any way except that the basic tasks would get simpler. E-Sports have never been meant to be a purely physical sport. When it comes to E-Sport Strategy games I've always thought of them as more like Chess where Strategical and Tactical brilliance is more important then pure physical skills, although in starcraft you'll have to be a much faster thinker then in alot of other games. Ofcourse to become a pro you'll need both the physical skills and the brilliant mind but I don't think going between lots of buildings to build units is where such greatness should be shown. It's better if all that APM is channeled into more meaningfull things like battle micro and expansion. If a brilliant player with a rather poor APM is up against a pretty mediocre player with a huge APM I think the brilliant player should have a decent chance to win and not lose just because the interface limits what he can do with his units and buildings. So far everything blizzard has shown points towards them agreeing with me on this point(That APM should be used on gameplay and not basic tasks). | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 22 2007 03:12 Zironic wrote: You'll still have to be very good and practise alot. It's just that you won't need a huge APM to do tasks that should be really basic. Unit production and resource gathering are such basic parts of the game that they shouldn't require huge APMs. Well the thing is, macro is all (edit: not all, but a big part of it anyway) about basic, stupid, repetitive stuff. If you remove the repetitive part, if you automatize everything that can be automatized, you also remove most of the required macro. The idea isn't to force the players to do these tasks himself but to make them find/choose their own style between micro and macro. BW is so great (partly) because not only these two elements are "balanced", but also because you can be an amazing player whether you give priority to one or the other. However you'll never be able to handle both with full commitment, because the game is too fast. Even with 450 APM, NaDa makes some control mistakes he would never do if he didn't have to come back to his base to macro. Unless they find a smart way to include a management solution which doesn't imply doing the same thing over and over again, the only way is to leave these tasks manual. Honestly, all we want is a hard game (I mean hard to master, because it should be extremely easy to play) with half macro half micro, and where the player must choose between the two during games. Anyway, this is what SC is all about. If they can find a way to achieve this while automatizing all the repetitive stuff, then that's awesome. (Btw, I'm not sure I understood that "pre-cooldown" thing. What difference does it make really? Apart from the fact you can't queue... I prolly missed something pretty obvious here.) | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Nazgul and fisheye had some of the best non-korean macro in their day, neither player had much higher APM than 100. Both were known for their strategic play AND their macro. Just food for thought, you can macro well with low APM in SC too. I'm still loving my idea of having unlimited building select but only being able to build from 1 at once, but being able to jump from gate to gate by clicking some key (say tab). | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 04:37 PoP wrote: Well the thing is, macro is all (edit: not all, but a big part of it anyway) about basic, stupid, repetitive stuff. If you remove the repetitive part, if you automatize everything that can be automatized, you also remove most of the required macro. The idea isn't to force the players to do these tasks himself but to make them find/choose their own style between micro and macro. BW is so great (partly) because not only these two elements are "balanced", but also because you can be an amazing player whether you give priority to one or the other. However you'll never be able to handle both with full commitment, because the game is too fast. Even with 450 APM, NaDa makes some control mistakes he would never do if he didn't have to come back to his base to macro. Unless they find a smart way to include a management solution which doesn't imply doing the same thing over and over again, the only way is to leave these tasks manual. Honestly, all we want is a hard game (I mean hard to master, because it should be extremely easy to play) with half macro half micro, and where the player must choose between the two during games. Anyway, this is what SC is all about. If they can find a way to achieve this while automatizing all the repetitive stuff, then that's awesome. (Btw, I'm not sure I understood that "pre-cooldown" thing. What difference does it make really? Apart from the fact you can't queue... I prolly missed something pretty obvious here.) It'll probably work like this. Build gateway. Wait 10 sec (exact number will be carefully balanced). Now you can if you want pay 100 minerals to warp in a Zealot to the location around the gateway. Wait 10 more sec, now you can warp in a second one. When upgraded to Warp Gate it will allow you to warp it in anywhere you have a pylon (or warp prism). The thing is, outside of Korea doing the same repetitive thing over and over again until mastery is frowned upon. Just look at the abysmal failure of korean MMO's outside of Korea. The game has to be fun and easy to play in and of itself. I trust Blizzard will manage this well with Starcraft 2. With World of Warcraft they've already demonstrated their ability to make a game both Asians with their love of repetitive game play and Western folk with their varied casual play can enjoy. | ||
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Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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Sr18
Netherlands1141 Posts
Warcraft3 had a lot of the mechanics simplified and it simply did not work out. Learn from your mistakes I would say. The amount of strategy in starcraft is simply too limited to allow it to become 90% of the game. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
 :I wonder how come nobody until now has thought of queue-able upgrades in SC 2. I mean, take a look at Warcraft3: if you want to research ground armor lvl2 and ground weapons lvl2, and you have enough money for it you can click on both of them (in the same building), and after researching the first, the second starts automatically (just like creating units). This goes for placing building, in WC3 you can click your peon to build a farm, and when you select the location for the farm you hold SHIFT key - this will allow you to build multiple farms, if resources permit it: the worker will build each one, in the order you placed them. IMO, this will not work out so good for SC 2. Upgrades are an essential part of the game, it's hard to manage the resources for them, and especially hard to remember to pump upgrades when ups take about 1-2 minutes to finish. Thus they become an important, if not crucial part of the game timing - it involves a lot of game 'sense' and experience to be able to start your upgrades at the right time(I'm referring to weapons/armor upgrades, not necessarily special abilities). As for the buildings part, it's just really hard to make like 3 or 4 supply depots, when you're Terran and you're in a macro-fest game vs a toss: Imagine, at 160 population, toss already has 200/200, you're racing for a ~180 pop, to start that massive push : and all of a sudden, "Additional Supply Depots required" hits your screen, and you rush to your main, struggle to grab 3-4 SCVs from the 30 or so (a real fucking anthill), and with painstaking effort (sometimes) you manage to place 3-4 Supply Depots, one besides another, your SCVs getting in the way of each other. That requires skill to pull off, it's fantastic to watch NaDa or Oov for example, they line their supply's PERFECTLY, at mind-blowing speed. Conclusion : This also requires skill and experience + hand speed, and it's a truly subtle part of the game, differencing good players from great ones, and great ones from pros imho So what do you think? TLnet pls discuss! I wouldn't have posted this here if I wouldn't thought it's a little related to the topic at hand. Sorry to the OP, and thanks for supporting me end of hijack =) | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 22 2007 05:00 Zironic wrote: It'll probably work like this. Build gateway. Wait 10 sec (exact number will be carefully balanced). Now you can if you want pay 100 minerals to warp in a Zealot to the location around the gateway. Wait 10 more sec, now you can warp in a second one. When upgraded to Warp Gate it will allow you to warp it in anywhere you have a pylon (or warp prism). That's pretty much what I understood, but I still don't see how it changes anything. In War2 too I produce a footman, wait 10 sec, then I can pay XXX gold to make another, etc. Build time is "carefully balanced" too in that case. Well I can see the little difference that it makes but not how this will have any impact. And it sounds like something Protoss-only anyway. The thing is, outside of Korea doing the same repetitive thing over and over again until mastery is frowned upon. Just look at the abysmal failure of korean MMO's outside of Korea. The game has to be fun and easy to play in and of itself. I trust Blizzard will manage this well with Starcraft 2. It needs to be easy to play and as hard as possible to master, or it won't last nearly as long as a competitive game (imho). I think SC was easy to play, btw, but you just can't expect to have a decent level if you don't practice. With World of Warcraft they've already demonstrated their ability to make a game both Asians with their love of repetitive game play and Western folk with their varied casual play can enjoy. I don't think SC1, despite all his "repetitive" macro tasks, is known as hard to play or anything. You can have fun and enjoy the game with 20 APM, and you can learn the game extremely fast anyway. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 05:12 PoP wrote: That's pretty much what I understood, but I still don't see how it changes anything. In War2 too I produce a footman, wait 10 sec, then I can pay XXX gold to make another, etc. Build time is "carefully balanced" too in that case. Well I can see the little difference that it makes but not how this will have any impact. And it sounds like something Protoss-only anyway. It needs to be easy to play and as hard as possible to master, or it won't last nearly as long as a competitive game (imho). I think SC was easy to play, btw, but you just can't expect to have a decent level if you don't practice. I don't think SC1, despite all his "repetitive" macro tasks, is known as hard to play or anything. You can have fun and enjoy the game with 20 APM, and you can learn the game extremely fast anyway. The point of the new protoss ability is that you can create units almost instantly (In the video it took them 2-3 seconds to warp in). This makes the protoss able to go "Haha, you attack my seemingly undefended base, say hello to my 20 newly warped in Zealots", instead of "Fuck, I can't get any unit out of my gateway faster then 10 seconds". SC1 isn't known to be hard to play, but I think that if SC1 came out right now with just better graphics people would say that the UI is archaic and hard to use compared to other new RTS games like Company of Heroes, Command and Conquer 3 and Supreme Commander. Since the Interfaces in RTS games have evolved alot since Starcraft came out I think that Starcraft 2 has to follow suit to some extent. Ofcourse not at the expense of micro/macro balance but Blizzard will probably replace the repetetive tasks with something else. | ||
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lamarine
587 Posts
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
The forum ate my original post, edited it to fix :=) | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 05:29 ocoini wrote: I cant stand to read this anymore... :' Noone is forcing you  | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 22 2007 05:18 Zironic wrote: The point of the new protoss ability is that you can create units almost instantly (In the video it took them 2-3 seconds to warp in). This makes the protoss able to go "Haha, you attack my seemingly undefended base, say hello to my 20 newly warped in Zealots", instead of "Fuck, I can't get any unit out of my gateway faster then 10 seconds". I see. But you also lose macro time if you wait (because units cannot be queued it seems): is the surprise effect worth it? Anyway, instead of speculating, let's wait until we have more details on this. SC1 isn't known to be hard to play, but I think that if SC1 came out right now with just better graphics people would say that the UI is archaic and hard to use compared to other new RTS games like Company of Heroes, Command and Conquer 3 and Supreme Commander. Since the Interfaces in RTS games have evolved alot since Starcraft came out I think that Starcraft 2 has to follow suit to some extent. Ofcourse not at the expense of micro/macro balance but Blizzard will probably replace the repetetive tasks with something else. I agree with that. If they can find ideas for non-repetitive macro tasks, which require enough player time, then of course we'll all be happy. | ||
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Zironic
Sweden341 Posts
On May 22 2007 05:33 PoP wrote: I see. But you also lose macro time if you wait (because units cannot be queued it seems): is the surprise effect worth it? Anyway, instead of speculating, let's wait until we have more details on this. I agree with that. If they can find ideas for non-repetitive macro tasks, which require enough player time, then of course we'll all be happy. On their website they seem very fond of the idea to send a Warp Prism into enemy territory and then building a whole army over there instantly. It's kinda like being able to do a Reaver drop with only one shuttle. | ||
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