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On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote:
Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap.
IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all.
it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best.
so him moving to Korea is a good move.
also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world.
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I feel like it's weird that you merely mention Neeb in passing when discussing the chances of foreigners closing the gap.
Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room...
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you are the average of the 5 people with whom you spend the most time.
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A very interesting choice of words in the title, and an extremely clickbait-y group at that. It doesn't give any real information on what the piece is actually about (opinion on the skill gap between Korean and foreign StarCraft players centered on the SHOUTcraft series) and absolutely exploits a particular curiosity people have, especially people interested in StarCraft who know what SHOUTcraft is or have heard of it.
"The WOOL Pulled Over Our Eyes" leads people to believe there is some sort of deception (and potentially shocking revelation) surrounding SHOUTcraft but does not say what, leading people to open and read the article in order to find out. And, in this case, be left unsatisfied. It is also alongside the dash of "Opinion" which often leads people to believe that the contents of the article will be unique to the writer of the article, further pulling wool over the eyes of onlookers.
The contents are quite unremarkable. Presented well and fine and all, but very unremarkable. For a short piece about something that has been part of StarCraft for ages, the title is certainly not warranted. If it had a less baiting title, I would have read it, shrugged my shoulders, maybe given it a quiet "hmm", and moved on to the rest of my day without commenting. But, hey, if the point is to get people reading and commenting on the thread then the title has succeeded in doing that, though I disagree with trying to call it anything more or less than what it is at the end of the day: clickbait.
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As for the discussion on the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans, I may as well comment since I'm already here.
I believe that while the gap is still there and being closed by a select few, the ceiling has been raised much higher by players all around the world and the game itself has changed over the last few years to the point that comparing old foreign hopes and GOATers to the players competing now is not nearly as significant. What players are able and expected to do now is so much greater than what was expected of players during Wings of Liberty and even Heart of the Swarm.
A foreigner holding a Korean player's mostly-failed Proxy 2 Gate Zealot with Drones and sufficient-yet-overall-poor micro on a big stage used to get crowds roaring, now those situations are almost exclusively seen between the un-spectated Bronze and Gold leagues on ladder. And if they are seen in a tournament, the crowds often groan and shake their heads or laugh and point fingers. What gets praise and cheering today are not one or two great decisions in a series or a player scouting and then not failing to a mundane cheese of some sort, but a dozen perfect split-second decisions followed by arguably game-breaking micro match after match after match. The skill gap is still there to some degree, but to me the game and its players are so different that I find the topic... stuffy, perhaps is the word.
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On September 30 2017 07:25 Solar424 wrote:
So basically, Bo1's only count when Koreans win. Seems silly to say Kings creates a false narrative while saying that the GSL vs The World team match says that the gap is as wide as it's always been when both are Bo1.
GSLvsTW was a premier offline event, where serious money(?) and pride was on the line. Shoutcraft is an online bo1 against random opponents, usually cross server as well. It's not the bo1 factor that is key here, it's the online/random opponent factor. Not to hate on shoutcraft, that's what makes it good, but the format is designed to make upsets more likely.
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If the rhetoric from community leaders and hubs like TL continues to frame all non-Koreans as "foreigners" how can we ever expect them to truly embody the game? If in their heart or mind's eye they see themselves as alien to the game?
Even if they don't, truly don't, and believe themselves to be true to the game, have as much "right" to the game as a Korean has, in the eyes of many fans and interpreters they are framed (here for instance) as interloper, and are almost guaranteed as such in a historical sense. This strikes me as a horrific defeatism and disservice that the "foreign" scene itself perpetuates, insecurely imo. And they are constantly undermined as a result because they are always othered.
"Greatest foreigner of all time" -- like one massive asterisk to anyone who truly aspires in the game. Because they know the game on a fundamental level is pure... even if they also know Korea is the cultural bedrock of its propagation (but the game itself was made in the west! its logic is universal...).
Even when a foreigner becomes great we don't honor them by saying they are great, simply. Look what happens to Nerchio in this very article. He is demeaned (as is shoutcraft)... but his streak is second to Innos...the goat. I know on some level the community wants some hero to smash through this narrative, but hasn't this already occurred? But this narrative recurs... as bad marketing...
Anyway, I was watching Snute's stream once and I rarely ever think of Snute as a "foreigner" or a Norwegian but as but as a proper starcraft professional because you can tell his work ethic is deep, and he has style, regardless of results. Snute was asked on stream whether an IQ test could measure one's potential in Starcraft, and Snute replied that it could not, that the only way to measure whether one is good at starcraft is starcraft.
Meanwhile in Korea the language of starcraft is starcraft, not Korean, simply.
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On September 30 2017 09:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote:
Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea. Training on Korea seems to have given a significant power boost to Major and Kelazhur. Neeb spent some time in Korea as well, possibly a factor in his rising strength over the course of the year. But as far as I can tell, Scarlett, Drogo, Noregret, etc have not really reaped any major gains from Korean training.
Maybe not this year, but her time in Korea in 2013 turned Scarlett from a very good Zerg player to arguably a Code S caliber player. Snute also spent some time with CJ Entus in 2013, and that may have helped his breakthrough in 2014. Staying in Korea isn't an instant skill boost, you still have to put the time in to get better.
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On September 30 2017 09:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote:
Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea. that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap. IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all. it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best. so him moving to Korea is a good move. also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world.
I never said, and I've never claimed that Neeb "closed" the gap. All I'm saying is that I think that the gap is "closing," if ever so slightly.
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On September 30 2017 11:07 Solar424 wrote:
Staying in Korea isn't an instant skill boost, you still have to put the time in to get better.
and its just a lot tougher to be born outside of Korea and become the best Starcraft player in the world.
likewise its a lot easier to become the best baseball hitter in the world if you're born in California USA rather than 1,000 KM north of there in British Columbia, Canada. it can be done.. its just a lot tougher.
On September 30 2017 11:20 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 09:46 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote:
Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea. that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap. IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all. it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best. so him moving to Korea is a good move. also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world. I never said, and I've never claimed that Neeb "closed" the gap. All I'm saying is that I think that the gap is "closing," if ever so slightly.
could be. BlizzCon will tell us a bit more.
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On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 30 2017 12:40 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me. LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
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On September 30 2017 10:21 jpoiv wrote:
If the rhetoric from community leaders and hubs like TL continues to frame all non-Koreans as "foreigners" how can we ever expect them to truly embody the game? If in their heart or mind's eye they see themselves as alien to the game?
My friend, we have all learned and embraced that distinction with pride and honor a long time ago. The "foreigner" badge is not insulting, discriminating, derogatory, patronizing, or in any way intently negative. Just consider it as a cultural idiosyncrasy within the site, and wear it proudly!
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On September 30 2017 12:53 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 12:40 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me. LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something You're welcome to apply. This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
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On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
Did you know that sometimes things which happen do not indicate long term trends? Another key revelation.
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My only comment - the picture next to the author's byline in this article is the real wool pulled over my eyes. His views are accompanied by a picture that one assumes would be of him, but is actually not him. Is this a faux pas, or perhaps the real exercise in subliminal deception?
Okay, I lied. Koreans are still better, there is still a gap, but you would have to argue that it has closed somewhat as there are at least a few foreigners that have actually lasted in the Code S without having blatant invites.
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I felt like this article wasn't addressing anything that needed concerning. It almost seems aimed at foreigner fans who take Shoutcraft results too seriously.
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On September 30 2017 13:12 Ishmael wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me. Did you know that sometimes things which happen do not indicate long term trends? Another key revelation.
What you say is true. But his point, as well as everybody's apprehension about this article is that it dangles excitement by providing a position that is contrary to universal belief, goes into the details in an attempt to support the premise, and in the end merely confirm the status quo - thereby revealing the dangled excitement to be nothing more than manufactured.
I get it though. It's a nice little idea. But the articled could have been a little more forthcoming with the title while still maintaining the body. After all, everyone is free to express their opinion, the author can write theirs, and we can write an opinion on their article as well. Providing everything is done with good intentions, all is well.
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On September 30 2017 13:41 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 13:12 Ishmael wrote:On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me. Did you know that sometimes things which happen do not indicate long term trends? Another key revelation. What you say is true. But his point, as well as everybody's apprehension about this article is that it dangles excitement by providing a position that is contrary to universal belief, goes into the details in an attempt to support the premise, and in the end merely confirm the status quo - thereby revealing the dangled excitement to be nothing more than manufactured. I get it though. It's a nice little idea. But the articled could have been a little more forthcoming with the title while still maintaining the body. After all, everyone is free to express their opinion, the author can write theirs, and we can write an opinion on their article as well. Providing everything is done with good intentions, all is well.
Thus the road to hell is paved......
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Austria24417 Posts
On September 30 2017 13:01 Twinkle Toes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2017 12:53 Olli wrote:On September 30 2017 12:40 Twinkle Toes wrote:On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me. LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something You're welcome to apply. This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article. This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
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