SHOUTcraft Kings has been one of the more compelling events since its inception in July of 2016. It’s a romantic concept: a Bo1, King of the Hill competition where the order and names of combatants are unknown. It’s as even a playing field as you can get for foreigners and Koreans alike. And that dynamic has not failed to disappoint fans hungering for entertainment and unexpected results. In the very first edition Nerchio beat Dear, who was only a few days away from kicking off a GSL campaign that would see him reach the semifinals for the third consecutive season. At the very same event Stephano beat ByuN, at the height of his power, and herO. Suddenly a realization began to take shape. SHOUTcraft Kings was becoming more than an event that brought international competition together. It was proof that foreigners were indeed closing the gap on Koreans.
Next month it was two foreigners, Neeb and Scarlett and INnoVation who reigned as King for the longest, ByuN lost once more, continuing for the third straight month in September, this time to Nerchio who also beat Maru and Rogue on the way to eight straight victories. Solar was the lone representative from the Korean region to notch wins at the Blizzcon edition and, although Koreans ruled the final SHOUTcraft Kings of 2016, the event had played a significant part in defining the foreigner vs Korean landscape. Foreign fans used these results along with Neeb’s KeSPA cup victories and promising results at Blizzcon to assert that foreigners had made significant strides. Korean loyalists countered by citing the circumstances of those results and, that, in the end, it was Dark and ByuN who reached the finals at the WCS Global Finals. Less than a month after that, it was foreign fans who were left scrambling for mitigating circumstances, as Koreans posted a 24-1 record in matches against foreigners at HomeStory Cup 14. Was it a return to the old days or an aberration caused by excessive partying? One event does not a trend make, but even the most diehard foreign fan could not totally discount the display of dominance.
Despite the disappointing results at HomeStory Cup, there was great hope going into 2017 among many that foreigners would continue the supposed trend. Foreigners like Nerchio, Scarlett and Neeb had posted impressive results during SHOUTcraft Kings, looking at least the equal of even the most vaunted Koreans. Neeb’s victory at KeSPA Cup was a sign that they could duplicate those results in offline events as well. The WCS system remained largely unchanged and the opportunities for foreigners to push one another were still available.
The first two SHOUTcraft Kings of the year featured hardly any foreigners. But, by the time the third edition had rolled around, fans had already seen another offline event featuring both foreigners and Koreans. The results at IEM Katowice were far less encouraging than those seen in TotalBiscuit’s brain child. Thirteen Koreans (TRUE is counted as a foreigner due to his WCS affiliation) reached the group stages. They posted a 27-8 record against foreigners in bo3, putting the cherry on top with a pair of 3-0’s in the elimination stages. Nerchio got another five win streak in the June edition of SHOUTcraft, while Neeb got a win over Solar, but by this point that landscape was already starting to shift as the old paradigms took hold.
Foreigners did little to support their cause at HomeStory Cup 15, but looked competitive during the bracket stages of WCS vs The World. ShoWTimE lost to soO in typical foreigner fashion, but MajOr and Serral represented themselves well, as did Neeb, the lone foreigner to win a series against a Korean. Buoyed by the results, the murmuring began once again. It would take less than 24 hours for them to be quashed. The team portion of GSL vs The World was either catastrophe or affirmation depending on which camp one belonged to. Foreigner after foreigner looked impotent before their Korean counterparts. Even Kelazhur’s victory was far from convincing. The looks of bewilderment on Stephano’s face, as well as those of the players, told the story. Things had come full circle. If only on this day, the foreigners were helpless before the Koreans.
Though not done maliciously, SHOUTcraft Kings played an enormous part in crafting the false storyline that the gap between foreigners and Koreans was closing. With WCS region locked, it served as the main battlefield upon which the two factions did battle. One would be completely foolish to discount the success seen by foreigners like Nerchio in the event as hogwash, but those results lacked proper context. Offline events clarified things, painting an indisputable picture that Koreans are still a cut above. Blizzcon will be the next opportunity for foreigners to buck the trend and bring new credence to the claims that they are an equal for the Koreans. Will they seize the opportunity or suffer the same fate that has befallen them for years?
After foreigners experienced some success against Koreans (most notably at KeSPA cup) of course people were going to claim that the "gap-has-closed" or whatever. You can say that SHOUTcraft Kings threw fuel onto that particular fire, but that fire was basically a volcano and would have continued to burn regardless.
Someone who misinterpreted or miscontextualized the results of SHOUTcraft Kings would have misinterpreted no results as good results all the same.
On September 30 2017 04:53 Olli wrote: What's click baity about the title?
It made it sound like the article was actually interesting rather than something that could be summed up by: Because of SHOUTcraft Kings and some other stuff people thought for a while that foreigners could compete with Koreans, but they just got crushed several events in a row, so really they can't compete, and it should have been (and was) obvious all along.
On September 30 2017 04:53 Olli wrote: What's click baity about the title?
It made it sound like the article was actually interesting rather than something that could be summed up by: Because of SHOUTcraft Kings and some other stuff people thought for a while that foreigners could compete with Koreans, but they just got crushed several events in a row, so really they can't compete, and it should have been (and was) obvious all along.
That's not what click bait means at all. The rest is what you make of the article.
On September 30 2017 04:53 Olli wrote: What's click baity about the title?
It made it sound like the article was actually interesting rather than something that could be summed up by: Because of SHOUTcraft Kings and some other stuff people thought for a while that foreigners could compete with Koreans, but they just got crushed several events in a row, so really they can't compete, and it should have been (and was) obvious all along.
That's not what click bait means at all. The rest is what you make of the article.
The title makes it sound like SHOUTcraft deceived us somehow whereas anyone who truly believed that foreigners had caught up to Koreans is practicing self-deception on several levels.
On September 30 2017 04:53 Olli wrote: What's click baity about the title?
It made it sound like the article was actually interesting rather than something that could be summed up by: Because of SHOUTcraft Kings and some other stuff people thought for a while that foreigners could compete with Koreans, but they just got crushed several events in a row, so really they can't compete, and it should have been (and was) obvious all along.
That's not what click bait means at all. The rest is what you make of the article.
The title makes it sound like SHOUTcraft deceived us somehow whereas anyone who truly believed that foreigners had caught up to Koreans is practicing self-deception on several levels.
The title is a pretty accurate depiction of what's in the article. If you dislike the content, fair enough. You don't have to agree with it, this is an opinion piece after all.
Hmm, personally I would say the argument presented here is pretty self-evident. Online results are not offline results. Foreigners winning online games is not the same as Koreans winning offline games. Until the foreigners can deliver major offline victories over top Koreans, the gap will remain extant.
The only people delusional enough to try and equate the two or claim that the gap is closed without any legitimate evidence, are exactly the same kind of people who would never listen to a logical argument in the first place.
And that dynamic has not failed to disappoint fans hungering for entertainment and unexpected results.
What a brutal string of negatives. We start off by saying (I'm assuming by accident) that the event is disappointing fans, then a paragraph listing a bunch of things to the contrary. The rest of the entire thing is running through business as usual results, summing up into the most un-newsworthy news possible - that Korean players are better than Starcraft.
Yeah, those wolves over at SHOUTcraft sure have been taking us for a ride. This whole manufactured thing seems like practice for a VICE media application.
EDIT: And for the record, the title absolutely is clickbait-y and misleading. "Pulling wool over one's eyes" is a very deliberate act of deception. The only thing this article is about is a couple top foreigners having taken a couple wins in this one event.
So basically, Bo1's only count when Koreans win. Seems silly to say Kings creates a false narrative while saying that the GSL vs The World team match says that the gap is as wide as it's always been when both are Bo1.
On September 30 2017 06:27 pvsnp wrote: Hmm, personally I would say the argument presented here is pretty self-evident. Online results are not offline results. Foreigners winning online games is not the same as Koreans winning offline games. Until the foreigners can deliver major offline victories over top Koreans, the gap will remain extant.
The only people delusional enough to try and equate the two or claim that the gap is closed without any legitimate evidence, are exactly the same kind of people who would never listen to a logical argument in the first place.
The results speak for themselves.
It is true that online results do not predict offline results, but it is also true that people neglected Beeb's online PvP stats in 2016, and he ended up winning the tournament off the back of PvP.
Similarly, Byun started with online results and moved to offline results.
I don't think most reasonable would claim that the gap has "closed," but I would argue that is has definitely become smaller.
There were always single individuals who could win series off of Koreans, but since 2011, there were not usually a group of people who could consistently show a fair match against Koreans.
But now we have at least at least five foreigners who have taken games and series off of Koreans. Major, Nerchio, Serral, Elazer, ShoWTimE, and Neeb have done well against Koreans (Though ShoWTimE had fallen off).
Sure, they're not winning most of the time against to level Koreans, but they're not being beaten as badly as they used to be. Back in 2013/2014, it was almost a foregone conclusion that if an NA person or an EU person faced any decent Korean, they would lose.
Now, it isn't always the case that people like alive or Solar will necessarily win.
All I'm saying is that while the gap has not completely closed, it has become a bit smaller.
Besides, Neeb (a foreigner) did win a major tournament with some of the best Koreans in it....and people still discredited that win.
Not a fan of this opinion piece. Most notably the title. I read that title and thought that Shoutcraft or TB did something negative to the community, maybe you should consider changing it; i'm sure i'm not the only one who thought that.
Nonetheless, the gap is still here obviously. We have 1 person in Neeb who was been an outlier, just like Naniwa or Stephano have. Other foreigners have high peaks but can't sustain that. Koreans can have the high level of skill for years on end like all the NesTea Award recipients. Koreans are just better overall, and will always be better overall, it's been how many years and some people can't relent that fact.
tough crowd here. i think the gap between koreans and non-koreans is about the same as its been for years.
if one of the top 10 non-koreans decides to move to korea... assimilate into the korean scene completely which includes learning the language... that non-korean player will "close the gap"
you'll never be the best baseball hitter unless u move to the USA and assimilate into the Major League Baseball competitive scene....and you'll have to learn english or spanish or preferably both.. same thing with SC.. learn the language and assimilate.
On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
Training on Korea seems to have given a significant power boost to Major and Kelazhur. Neeb spent some time in Korea as well, possibly a factor in his rising strength over the course of the year.
But as far as I can tell, Scarlett, Drogo, Noregret, etc have not really reaped any major gains from Korean training.
On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap. IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all. it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best.
so him moving to Korea is a good move.
also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world.
A very interesting choice of words in the title, and an extremely clickbait-y group at that. It doesn't give any real information on what the piece is actually about (opinion on the skill gap between Korean and foreign StarCraft players centered on the SHOUTcraft series) and absolutely exploits a particular curiosity people have, especially people interested in StarCraft who know what SHOUTcraft is or have heard of it.
"The WOOL Pulled Over Our Eyes" leads people to believe there is some sort of deception (and potentially shocking revelation) surrounding SHOUTcraft but does not say what, leading people to open and read the article in order to find out. And, in this case, be left unsatisfied. It is also alongside the dash of "Opinion" which often leads people to believe that the contents of the article will be unique to the writer of the article, further pulling wool over the eyes of onlookers.
The contents are quite unremarkable. Presented well and fine and all, but very unremarkable. For a short piece about something that has been part of StarCraft for ages, the title is certainly not warranted. If it had a less baiting title, I would have read it, shrugged my shoulders, maybe given it a quiet "hmm", and moved on to the rest of my day without commenting. But, hey, if the point is to get people reading and commenting on the thread then the title has succeeded in doing that, though I disagree with trying to call it anything more or less than what it is at the end of the day: clickbait.
--
As for the discussion on the skill gap between foreigners and Koreans, I may as well comment since I'm already here.
I believe that while the gap is still there and being closed by a select few, the ceiling has been raised much higher by players all around the world and the game itself has changed over the last few years to the point that comparing old foreign hopes and GOATers to the players competing now is not nearly as significant. What players are able and expected to do now is so much greater than what was expected of players during Wings of Liberty and even Heart of the Swarm.
A foreigner holding a Korean player's mostly-failed Proxy 2 Gate Zealot with Drones and sufficient-yet-overall-poor micro on a big stage used to get crowds roaring, now those situations are almost exclusively seen between the un-spectated Bronze and Gold leagues on ladder. And if they are seen in a tournament, the crowds often groan and shake their heads or laugh and point fingers. What gets praise and cheering today are not one or two great decisions in a series or a player scouting and then not failing to a mundane cheese of some sort, but a dozen perfect split-second decisions followed by arguably game-breaking micro match after match after match. The skill gap is still there to some degree, but to me the game and its players are so different that I find the topic... stuffy, perhaps is the word.
On September 30 2017 07:25 Solar424 wrote: So basically, Bo1's only count when Koreans win. Seems silly to say Kings creates a false narrative while saying that the GSL vs The World team match says that the gap is as wide as it's always been when both are Bo1.
GSLvsTW was a premier offline event, where serious money(?) and pride was on the line. Shoutcraft is an online bo1 against random opponents, usually cross server as well. It's not the bo1 factor that is key here, it's the online/random opponent factor. Not to hate on shoutcraft, that's what makes it good, but the format is designed to make upsets more likely.
If the rhetoric from community leaders and hubs like TL continues to frame all non-Koreans as "foreigners" how can we ever expect them to truly embody the game? If in their heart or mind's eye they see themselves as alien to the game?
Even if they don't, truly don't, and believe themselves to be true to the game, have as much "right" to the game as a Korean has, in the eyes of many fans and interpreters they are framed (here for instance) as interloper, and are almost guaranteed as such in a historical sense. This strikes me as a horrific defeatism and disservice that the "foreign" scene itself perpetuates, insecurely imo. And they are constantly undermined as a result because they are always othered.
"Greatest foreigner of all time" -- like one massive asterisk to anyone who truly aspires in the game. Because they know the game on a fundamental level is pure... even if they also know Korea is the cultural bedrock of its propagation (but the game itself was made in the west! its logic is universal...).
Even when a foreigner becomes great we don't honor them by saying they are great, simply. Look what happens to Nerchio in this very article. He is demeaned (as is shoutcraft)... but his streak is second to Innos...the goat. I know on some level the community wants some hero to smash through this narrative, but hasn't this already occurred? But this narrative recurs... as bad marketing...
Anyway, I was watching Snute's stream once and I rarely ever think of Snute as a "foreigner" or a Norwegian but as but as a proper starcraft professional because you can tell his work ethic is deep, and he has style, regardless of results. Snute was asked on stream whether an IQ test could measure one's potential in Starcraft, and Snute replied that it could not, that the only way to measure whether one is good at starcraft is starcraft.
Meanwhile in Korea the language of starcraft is starcraft, not Korean, simply.
On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
Training on Korea seems to have given a significant power boost to Major and Kelazhur. Neeb spent some time in Korea as well, possibly a factor in his rising strength over the course of the year.
But as far as I can tell, Scarlett, Drogo, Noregret, etc have not really reaped any major gains from Korean training.
Maybe not this year, but her time in Korea in 2013 turned Scarlett from a very good Zerg player to arguably a Code S caliber player. Snute also spent some time with CJ Entus in 2013, and that may have helped his breakthrough in 2014. Staying in Korea isn't an instant skill boost, you still have to put the time in to get better.
On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap. IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all. it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best.
so him moving to Korea is a good move.
also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world.
I never said, and I've never claimed that Neeb "closed" the gap. All I'm saying is that I think that the gap is "closing," if ever so slightly.
On September 30 2017 11:07 Solar424 wrote: Staying in Korea isn't an instant skill boost, you still have to put the time in to get better.
and its just a lot tougher to be born outside of Korea and become the best Starcraft player in the world.
likewise its a lot easier to become the best baseball hitter in the world if you're born in California USA rather than 1,000 KM north of there in British Columbia, Canada. it can be done.. its just a lot tougher.
On September 30 2017 09:28 FrkFrJss wrote: Except that Neeb won KeSPA Cup before he really knew the language. Also, I don't believe he'd been in Korea all that long before his win.
But you're right in that a lot of the "good" foreigners nowadays are/have recently lived in Korea.
that's not enough to say Neeb has closed the gap. IMO, moving to Korea and not learning the language is still better than not going ot Korea at all. it really helps to be surrounded by the absolute best.
so him moving to Korea is a good move.
also, i'm not saying any of this is easy. its brutal. welcome to the real world.
I never said, and I've never claimed that Neeb "closed" the gap. All I'm saying is that I think that the gap is "closing," if ever so slightly.
On September 30 2017 10:21 jpoiv wrote: If the rhetoric from community leaders and hubs like TL continues to frame all non-Koreans as "foreigners" how can we ever expect them to truly embody the game? If in their heart or mind's eye they see themselves as alien to the game?
My friend, we have all learned and embraced that distinction with pride and honor a long time ago. The "foreigner" badge is not insulting, discriminating, derogatory, patronizing, or in any way intently negative. Just consider it as a cultural idiosyncrasy within the site, and wear it proudly!
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
My only comment - the picture next to the author's byline in this article is the real wool pulled over my eyes. His views are accompanied by a picture that one assumes would be of him, but is actually not him. Is this a faux pas, or perhaps the real exercise in subliminal deception?
Okay, I lied. Koreans are still better, there is still a gap, but you would have to argue that it has closed somewhat as there are at least a few foreigners that have actually lasted in the Code S without having blatant invites.
I felt like this article wasn't addressing anything that needed concerning. It almost seems aimed at foreigner fans who take Shoutcraft results too seriously.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
Did you know that sometimes things which happen do not indicate long term trends? Another key revelation.
What you say is true. But his point, as well as everybody's apprehension about this article is that it dangles excitement by providing a position that is contrary to universal belief, goes into the details in an attempt to support the premise, and in the end merely confirm the status quo - thereby revealing the dangled excitement to be nothing more than manufactured.
I get it though. It's a nice little idea. But the articled could have been a little more forthcoming with the title while still maintaining the body. After all, everyone is free to express their opinion, the author can write theirs, and we can write an opinion on their article as well. Providing everything is done with good intentions, all is well.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
Did you know that sometimes things which happen do not indicate long term trends? Another key revelation.
What you say is true. But his point, as well as everybody's apprehension about this article is that it dangles excitement by providing a position that is contrary to universal belief, goes into the details in an attempt to support the premise, and in the end merely confirm the status quo - thereby revealing the dangled excitement to be nothing more than manufactured.
I get it though. It's a nice little idea. But the articled could have been a little more forthcoming with the title while still maintaining the body. After all, everyone is free to express their opinion, the author can write theirs, and we can write an opinion on their article as well. Providing everything is done with good intentions, all is well.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
On September 30 2017 13:52 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Is it THAT different though?
Yes it is. The title mizenhauer chose implies that we're being deceived. That doesn't mean TB is maniacally laughing in a spinning chair as he intentionally makes foreigners win. He argues that how SHOUTcraft has unfolded has contributed to the narrative that the gap has closed, which he says is false. Deception can happen unintentionally, as he also argues.
If you think that title is clickbaity in an opinion piece then I don't know what to tell you except that you've probably not read many opinion pieces recently. This is a conservative title if anything.
On September 30 2017 13:52 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Is it THAT different though?
Yes it is. The title mizenhauer chose implies that we're being deceived. That doesn't mean TB is maniacally laughing in a spinning chair as he intentionally makes foreigners win. He argues that how SHOUTcraft has unfolded has contributed to the narrative that the gap has closed, which he says is false. Deception can happen unintentionally, as he also argues.
If you think that title is clickbaity in an opinion piece then I don't know what to tell you except that you've probably not read many opinion pieces recently. This is a conservative title if anything.
Eh....
Personally (and from the perspective of nearly everyone else, it seems), I would argue that including Shoutcraft as the first word in the title strongly implies, if not outright declares, that Shoutcraft is in fact the "wool pulled over our eyes." That's the whole point, grammatically, of using a colon. While in reality, mizenhauer is talking about a falsehood that Shoutcraft only contributes to, and inadvertently at that.
I would agree that the title is disingenuous. At the very least, there are better/clearer ways of phrasing the title.
I mean, if you saw an article titled: "JOHN DOE: The Murderer Convicted," I don't think it's a tremendous leap of logic to assume that the article is about a man named John Doe being convicted of murder. A prosecutor named John Doe achieving a murder conviction on some unnamed criminal, or some other interpretation, while possible, is unlikely at best.
Whether or not there is intended deception in the title, would it be too much to ask for a better-phrased title given the amount of confusion it generates? Mods?
I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
It happens to everyone. Even more shocking is the fact that Olli isn't actually an elf.
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
It happens to everyone. Even more shocking is the fact that Olli isn't actually an elf.
Olli has been pulling the wool over our eyes all this time.
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
It happens to everyone. Even more shocking is the fact that Olli isn't actually an elf.
Obviously clickbait can be more than the exaggerrated "you won't BELIEVE". If you start an article online in an American website with "President Killed" and then it turns out you're talking about the president of a small dishwashing company, that's clickbait.
But what is clickbaity about "the wool pulled over our eyes". It is provocative, not misleading. Were you expecting that total biscuit had been secretly withholding money or something? I don't even know what you could expect. And any small questions you have can be answered by five seconds of looking at the article.
On September 30 2017 16:40 Pandain wrote: Obviously clickbait can be more than the exaggerrated "you won't BELIEVE". If you start an article online in an American website with "President Killed" and then it turns out you're talking about the president of a small dishwashing company, that's clickbait.
But what is clickbaity about "the wool pulled over our eyes". It is provocative, not misleading. Were you expecting that total biscuit had been secretly withholding money or something? I don't even know what you could expect. And any small questions you have can be answered by five seconds of looking at the article.
Well with how often money based scandals happen in the esports scene it kind of was what I first thought of when I read the title, I was quite shocked when I saw it in the sidebar. It's really not a good title because it creates a connection of Shoutcraft doing something negative while the article is about foreigner skills instead.
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
It happens to everyone. Even more shocking is the fact that Olli isn't actually an elf.
even more shocking is Olli is no longer the Darklord !!
Jokes aside, this is really 1 of the more pointless opinion pieces i have read here.
Really. This is Shoutcraft we are talking about here. Besides being hugely successful and entertaining, it would be hard to find anyone that disses it.
Not to mention, there is really no reason that people believes that foreigners are closer to korea's level because of Shoutcraft. Which was the entire premise of this article.
TB himself has always stated that because of it being bo1, it really is not a true indication of skill level.
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
It happens to everyone. Even more shocking is the fact that Olli isn't actually an elf.
Here's something that has nothing to do with the title: I think the gap really is closing. Remember, we're talking about a game where the best ever foreigners at BlizzCon were eliminated in the first round before region lock was introduced. Neeb has definitely closed the gap, but MajOr casually took two games of GSL and SSL champion Stats in a Korean tournament, Showtime took two off soO. Nerchio has done very well in SHOUTcraft (and I don't agree that that means nothing when it's continued games against top opposition). Foreigners are doing alright against Koreans in online competition constantly.
It'd be foolish to argue that foreigners are as good as Koreans now, but considering where we came from I think the skill level in the foreign scene has definitely gone up, while Korea is slowly suffering the consequences of the Kespa structure breakdown, with a lot of minds and players on ladder simply not being there anymore. So I'd argue that the gap is indeed closing, even beyond Neeb who I personally consider as good as any Korean Protoss.
On September 30 2017 17:52 Olli wrote: Here's something that has nothing to do with the title: I think the gap really is closing. Remember, we're talking about a game where the best ever foreigners at BlizzCon were eliminated in the first round before region lock was introduced. Neeb has definitely closed the gap, but MajOr casually took two games of GSL and SSL champion Stats in a Korean tournament, Showtime took two off soO. Nerchio has done very well in SHOUTcraft (and I don't agree that that means nothing when it's continued games against top opposition). Foreigners are doing alright against Koreans in online competition constantly.
It'd be foolish to argue that foreigners are as good as Koreans now, but considering where we came from I think the skill level in the foreign scene has definitely gone up, while Korea is slowly suffering the consequences of the Kespa structure breakdown, with a lot of minds and players on ladder simply not being there anymore. So I'd argue that the gap is indeed closing, even beyond Neeb who I personally consider as good as any Korean Protoss.
My thoughts exaxtly, I think here (as on this website) we mostly see 2 different extremes, people saying EVERY foreigner isn't even code S Ro32 material and only got into code S through sheer luck. The others are those who say that foreigners are on the same level/slightly below the level of koreans. Though I don't think either one of those are true.
I think the gap is closing, but way slower than it seems to the people saying that foreigners are almost at Korean level. But I think the foreign scene has really improved. And strangely enough I think the region lock helped with it. (Though I have conflicted feelings about that)
(I know I generalized with my first statement about the two types of people, and I know there are people in between, me for example, but the two extremes are the loudest groups (especially the ones saying foreigners are not at all on korean level))
On September 30 2017 14:48 Immaterial wrote: I don't want to feed into this debate about the title too too much (...as I proceed to do precisely that, lol) BUT... I'd like to say that when I first saw the title I was 100% under the impression that this article was going to be about some form of deliberate deception carried out by the people that run Shoutcraft.
I think part of the problem is that the expression "Wool pulled over our eyes" implies that someone is performing a deliberate action to deceive -- i.e. someone is actively pulling the wool over our eyes, misleading us. One online dictionary defines the expression as to "conceal one's true motives...especially by elaborately feigning good intentions so as to gain an end".... In reality though, the article is suggesting a much more passive, muuuch less nefarious source of this misconception in the community...
This could all be a silly misinterpretation on my part, and the description on the home page does clarify things somewhat, but I do think that the choice of title will be misleading to some people. Or perhaps I'm just a dumb dumb ^^
As for the content of the article itself, I won't be quite as critical as some of the other posters have been. However I do agree that you could condense the claim made in the article to something like "Foreigners performing well vs Koreans in online tournaments [or this particular online tournament] does not necessarily correlate with foreigners performing well vs koreans in offline events" On some level this point is likely self evident to many of us here on TL.
That said I still enjoyed reading the piece and I thank mizenhauer for writing this && sharing his perspective I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~
PS Based on his icon at the top of the page I totally thought mizenhauer was actually a gorgeous asian girl, but sadly it wasn't to be TT
I initially assumed (when he first started writing) that mizenhauer was indeed Asian, beautiful, and a girl (as shown in his icon), and did not think to question that assumption for an embarrassingly long time afterward.
In fact, I remember thinking: "This mizenhauer girl looks like a model, not a writer."
I'm sorry clicking my twitter link is such a let down.
I sincerely think that Neeb is the best protoss in the world. And if Nerchio is right about protoss being the strongest currently, Neeb will probably win the whole thing. He has the momentum to trash top koreans, hopefully he won't be afraid of his own potential. Stephano wasn't afraid to win so he did just that.
So much shit that can go wrong/get lucky/whatever so no value should be put about who wins and who loses. SC2 is just too random. Just ask yourself if these foreigner wins would ever happen in BW? lol.
On September 30 2017 14:26 Twinkle Toes wrote: Whether or not there is intended deception in the title, would it be too much to ask for a better-phrased title given the amount of confusion it generates? Mods?
call for censorship? whatever man.
confusion? intended deception? the first nine characters in the title are "[Opinion]". lots of people have incorrect opinions that involve zero deception. they're just wrong.
i think freedom of expression over rides any "confusion" people have. In fact, English isn't even the first language for many of us.
maybe Shoutcraft's format is intended to produce volatile results to get people talking... which includes this discussion..if so, its a huge win for TotalBiscuit. His genius stealth marketing tactics proved successful
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
On September 30 2017 17:52 Olli wrote: Here's something that has nothing to do with the title: I think the gap really is closing. Remember, we're talking about a game where the best ever foreigners at BlizzCon were eliminated in the first round before region lock was introduced. Neeb has definitely closed the gap, but MajOr casually took two games of GSL and SSL champion Stats in a Korean tournament, Showtime took two off soO. Nerchio has done very well in SHOUTcraft (and I don't agree that that means nothing when it's continued games against top opposition). Foreigners are doing alright against Koreans in online competition constantly.
It'd be foolish to argue that foreigners are as good as Koreans now, but considering where we came from I think the skill level in the foreign scene has definitely gone up, while Korea is slowly suffering the consequences of the Kespa structure breakdown, with a lot of minds and players on ladder simply not being there anymore. So I'd argue that the gap is indeed closing, even beyond Neeb who I personally consider as good as any Korean Protoss.
So... the wool has not been pulled over our eyes? You disagree with the article? Me too
On September 30 2017 17:52 Olli wrote: Here's something that has nothing to do with the title: I think the gap really is closing. Remember, we're talking about a game where the best ever foreigners at BlizzCon were eliminated in the first round before region lock was introduced. Neeb has definitely closed the gap, but MajOr casually took two games of GSL and SSL champion Stats in a Korean tournament, Showtime took two off soO. Nerchio has done very well in SHOUTcraft (and I don't agree that that means nothing when it's continued games against top opposition). Foreigners are doing alright against Koreans in online competition constantly.
It'd be foolish to argue that foreigners are as good as Koreans now, but considering where we came from I think the skill level in the foreign scene has definitely gone up, while Korea is slowly suffering the consequences of the Kespa structure breakdown, with a lot of minds and players on ladder simply not being there anymore. So I'd argue that the gap is indeed closing, even beyond Neeb who I personally consider as good as any Korean Protoss.
So... the wool has not been pulled over our eyes? You disagree with the article? Me too
Ryan
I do disagree with it. But hey, it's an opinion piece.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
"You misinterpreting the title" lmao are you actually serious dude?
It's not a misinterpretation. "pulling the wool over sb's eyes" has always had a negative connotation and a meaning of intentional deception. This is how it's always been used, you can't just retroactively pretend that's not true and deny however many years of history the phrase has had. (over 150 years according to this source btw, I checked)
And why are you so incredibly defensive anyway? Is it really that hard to admit that maybe the writer (who is not even you, I'm not sure if you've noticed) might have made a slip-up or tried to spice up his title to get people interested?
You keep shouting that it's an opinion piece as if people criticize the content when in fact we only criticize the stupid title which implies that SHOUTCraft has done something negative or deceitful. A claim which of course is not present in the piece itself, because that would be untrue.
On September 30 2017 14:26 Twinkle Toes wrote: Whether or not there is intended deception in the title, would it be too much to ask for a better-phrased title given the amount of confusion it generates? Mods?
call for censorship? whatever man.
confusion? intended deception? the first nine characters in the title are "[Opinion]". lots of people have incorrect opinions that involve zero deception. they're just wrong.
i think freedom of expression over rides any "confusion" people have. In fact, English isn't even the first language for many of us.
maybe Shoutcraft's format is intended to produce volatile results to get people talking... which includes this discussion..if so, its a huge win for TotalBiscuit. His genius stealth marketing tactics proved successful
strawman? you don't even understand what everyone here is commenting on. You are a coward and a liar who's been humiliated many times over in the NBA threads. just stop.
The gap used to be about not beating duckdeok and Pigbaby. Now it's about beating Innovation and Stats. Probably a sign that there's some truth to skill level of regions getting closer.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
"You misinterpreting the title" lmao are you actually serious dude?
It's not a misinterpretation. "pulling the wool over sb's eyes" has always had a negative connotation and a meaning of intentional deception. This is how it's always been used, you can't just retroactively pretend that's not true and deny however many years of history the phrase has had. (over 150 years according to this source btw, I checked)
And why are you so incredibly defensive anyway? Is it really that hard to admit that maybe the writer (who is not even you, I'm not sure if you've noticed) might have made a slip-up or tried to spice up his title to get people interested?
You keep shouting that it's an opinion piece as if people criticize the content when in fact we only criticize the stupid title which implies that SHOUTCraft has done something negative or deceitful. A claim which of course is not present in the piece itself, because that would be untrue.
Clickbait implies the intent to mislead people into clicking an article, which is definitely not what happened here. That's why I'm arguing. The title may have been better picked, but I personally see nothing wrong with it. It's a bit on the provocative side, but by no means clickbait.
On September 30 2017 22:42 DwD wrote: BO1 are cointosses in this "game" we call SC2.
So much shit that can go wrong/get lucky/whatever so no value should be put about who wins and who loses. SC2 is just too random. Just ask yourself if these foreigner wins would ever happen in BW? lol.
So many people say this, but it's honestly just ignorant. Any bo3/5/7 that goes to the final map is essentially decided by a bo1. If you give no value to someone winning a bo1, then someone winning a bo5 3-2 shouldn't be given higher value than the opponent they beat.
A good example is Innovation's recent GSL win had him going to the final map of almost every series he played, they were all decided by one map. Should he not have value put on him for winning those?
Of course an isolated bo1 doesn't say much, even the best players in the world might only have a 70% winrate. The lower the "best of", the greater the chance that the worse player will win. But when you have players consistantly performing well over many seperate bo1's, it's obvious that they are a player of high value.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
"You misinterpreting the title" lmao are you actually serious dude?
It's not a misinterpretation. "pulling the wool over sb's eyes" has always had a negative connotation and a meaning of intentional deception. This is how it's always been used, you can't just retroactively pretend that's not true and deny however many years of history the phrase has had. (over 150 years according to this source btw, I checked)
And why are you so incredibly defensive anyway? Is it really that hard to admit that maybe the writer (who is not even you, I'm not sure if you've noticed) might have made a slip-up or tried to spice up his title to get people interested?
You keep shouting that it's an opinion piece as if people criticize the content when in fact we only criticize the stupid title which implies that SHOUTCraft has done something negative or deceitful. A claim which of course is not present in the piece itself, because that would be untrue.
Clickbait implies the intent to mislead people into clicking an article, which is definitely not what happened here.
This is exactly what happened here. I opened the article because I was interested in reading about how SHOUTcraft has been deliberatly decieving us. I was misled, as this article isn't at all about any intentional deception. If the title would have properly covered the contents of the article, I probably wouldn't have bothered with it.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
"You misinterpreting the title" lmao are you actually serious dude?
It's not a misinterpretation. "pulling the wool over sb's eyes" has always had a negative connotation and a meaning of intentional deception. This is how it's always been used, you can't just retroactively pretend that's not true and deny however many years of history the phrase has had. (over 150 years according to this source btw, I checked)
And why are you so incredibly defensive anyway? Is it really that hard to admit that maybe the writer (who is not even you, I'm not sure if you've noticed) might have made a slip-up or tried to spice up his title to get people interested?
You keep shouting that it's an opinion piece as if people criticize the content when in fact we only criticize the stupid title which implies that SHOUTCraft has done something negative or deceitful. A claim which of course is not present in the piece itself, because that would be untrue.
Clickbait implies the intent to mislead people into clicking an article, which is definitely not what happened here.
This is exactly what happened here. I opened the article because I was interested in reading about how SHOUTcraft has been deliberatly decieving us. I was misled, as this article isn't at all about any intentional deception. If the title would have properly covered the contents of the article, I probably wouldn't have bothered with it.
You're accusing the writer of intentionally deceiving you. That's not what happened.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
This is an honest question, but do you have standards, at least with titles, for opinion articles? Or is it anything goes since "people are entitled to their own opinion." Another question, don't you at the very least find the title disingenuous?
This is the very first of these opinion pieces we have released, but I'll tell you right now that the title is the author's responsibility with these as long as it isn't completely awful. It's clearly tagged as their opinion, and the choice of title is included. This title is not at all clickbaity, and I wouldn't have actual clickbait titles ("you won't BELIEVE what...").
My personal opinon on the matter: If you think this is clickbait, you have no idea what that term actually means. So yes, we have standards. And no, I think the title reflects the content enough to be warranted.
This is definitely clickbait title - you can try and claim otherwise, calling others whatever you like "not knowing what it means" etc.
it is pure clickbait - after reading that my first thought was there is something shady happening with Shoutcraft/Blizzard but that is not AT ALL what actual "opinion" is about.
title is completely misleading..
You misinterpreting the title doesn't make it click bait. And that's your only argument.
"You misinterpreting the title" lmao are you actually serious dude?
It's not a misinterpretation. "pulling the wool over sb's eyes" has always had a negative connotation and a meaning of intentional deception. This is how it's always been used, you can't just retroactively pretend that's not true and deny however many years of history the phrase has had. (over 150 years according to this source btw, I checked)
And why are you so incredibly defensive anyway? Is it really that hard to admit that maybe the writer (who is not even you, I'm not sure if you've noticed) might have made a slip-up or tried to spice up his title to get people interested?
You keep shouting that it's an opinion piece as if people criticize the content when in fact we only criticize the stupid title which implies that SHOUTCraft has done something negative or deceitful. A claim which of course is not present in the piece itself, because that would be untrue.
Clickbait implies the intent to mislead people into clicking an article, which is definitely not what happened here.
This is exactly what happened here. I opened the article because I was interested in reading about how SHOUTcraft has been deliberatly decieving us. I was misled, as this article isn't at all about any intentional deception. If the title would have properly covered the contents of the article, I probably wouldn't have bothered with it.
SHOUTcraft has deceived us. But it's been the results, not the organizers that were responsible for the deception. If one operates under the assumption that the tournament, and, by extension the games that occurred within it, and those involved with organizing the event are separate entities, I think it's very easy to come to the conclusion that SHOUTcraft (the tournament in which foreigners beat high level Koreans, giving credence to a growing sentiment that Foreigners were closer in quality to Koreans that ever before) generated misinformation that added a lot of fuel to a fire that shouldn't have even existed. This is my opinion, which is why the article is labeled as such.
Do I think the title is clickbait? No. I think it is an accurate representation of an article that tries to look at past events with objectivity many did not possess at the point in time in which these results occurred, while debunking what was a very popular position at the time, one many people still hold today.
Lastly, the following is written in the front page image: "Mizenhauer argues his opinion that SHOUTcraft paints a false picture of the skill gap between foreigners and Korean closing". I don't know how you can say the article is click bait when an accurate description of the content is available before you even read it.
The article takes more of a dramatic angle on the issue. I would've liked to have seen at least a little bit of analysis on why SHOUTcraft gets different results. If it's from the Koreans playing worse, then actually showing that would've been really cool, like a gfy of an uncharacteristic mistake by a Korean that decided a game. And then it'd be interesting to read speculation on why the Koreans couldn't bring their best play to SHOUTcraft. Or if it's foreigners playing better, show that with an in-game example and speculate why they make mistakes ("going full foreigner") in the bigger tournaments.
Of course, that'd be a much bigger project. But I think when you're going to opine on a controversial issue, it's most compelling when you've got good evidence. Complaints about the exact meaning of the phrase used in the title aside, I feel like every other complaint would be silenced by this extra work. Anyone thinking your conclusion/observation was obvious would still be interested in seeing the details.
On October 01 2017 02:20 NonY wrote: The article takes more of a dramatic angle on the issue. I would've liked to have seen at least a little bit of analysis on why SHOUTcraft gets different results. If it's from the Koreans playing worse, then actually showing that would've been really cool, like a gfy of an uncharacteristic mistake by a Korean that decided a game. And then it'd be interesting to read speculation on why the Koreans couldn't bring their best play to SHOUTcraft. Or if it's foreigners playing better, show that with an in-game example and speculate why they make mistakes ("going full foreigner") in the bigger tournaments.
Of course, that'd be a much bigger project. But I think when you're going to opine on a controversial issue, it's most compelling when you've got good evidence. Complaints about the exact meaning of the phrase used in the title aside, I feel like every other complaint would be silenced by this extra work. Anyone thinking your conclusion/observation was obvious would still be interested in seeing the details.
Its usually in the middle of the night for koreans
On October 01 2017 02:20 NonY wrote: The article takes more of a dramatic angle on the issue. I would've liked to have seen at least a little bit of analysis on why SHOUTcraft gets different results. If it's from the Koreans playing worse, then actually showing that would've been really cool, like a gfy of an uncharacteristic mistake by a Korean that decided a game. And then it'd be interesting to read speculation on why the Koreans couldn't bring their best play to SHOUTcraft. Or if it's foreigners playing better, show that with an in-game example and speculate why they make mistakes ("going full foreigner") in the bigger tournaments.
Of course, that'd be a much bigger project. But I think when you're going to opine on a controversial issue, it's most compelling when you've got good evidence. Complaints about the exact meaning of the phrase used in the title aside, I feel like every other complaint would be silenced by this extra work. Anyone thinking your conclusion/observation was obvious would still be interested in seeing the details.
Its usually in the middle of the night for koreans
That's exactly what I was just talking about... That's what I meant about observing whether the Koreans are playing worse in SHOUTcraft and speculating why they're playing worse.
On October 01 2017 00:49 Nebuchad wrote: The gap used to be about not beating duckdeok and Pigbaby. Now it's about beating Innovation and Stats. Probably a sign that there's some truth to skill level of regions getting closer.
but 2013 duckdeok > 2017 inno you should know that
Serral defeat Byun in an intensive match but even if i respect Serral, i can t imagine this victory with some minor problems playing bio style. From what i see on the second map (ascension to aiur) Byun reach the center of the map and constantly harass Serral, then Serral struggle and break the terran with the end game compoosition. I would likke to see Terran with less difficulty in struggling against the creep extension.. Byun bio style is one of the most efficient in starcraft 2 scene and i can t imagine his defeat, but it s look true : creep completely expand and He can t stop it..
Terran should be able to coontains Zerg on a front line along the creep with bunkers in increasing their capacity (from 4 to 5) and reducing his cost from 100 to 75. I hope you share my vision of the Terran bio style against zerg. In this case Zerg could switch with lurkkers and start a siege against the terran's bunker... etc .. This contain, creep against bunker could be interessant and create a new playstyle from both side.
The reason the title is a clickbait is in the word choice. A person can be mistaken or misinformed about something - in this case that foreigners are almost on the same level as koreans - but if the "wool is being pulled over our eyes" that means someone is purposefully/actively deceiving us (usually in a malicious way) and that's simply not what's happening here.
Therefore the article is clickbait because it likely generates more clicks than it would have due to a misleading/over-the-top title. I know I personally clicked on the link with intrigue when I probably wouldn't have otherwise.
You can sit here and defend it 'til you're blue in the face, of course, but I don't see the point. I think the smarter course would be to admit that the title was over-the-top and move on. At the end of the day it's not THAT big of a deal to be honest.
It could be the "wool pulled over our eyes" by the community after foreigner wins in shoutcraft......
From Page 2....
If the rhetoric from community leaders and hubs like TL continues to frame all non-Koreans as "foreigners" how can we ever expect them to truly embody the game? If in their heart or mind's eye they see themselves as alien to the game?
More of the same
You are failing to appreciate SC's history with this comment. I understand the critical theory angle that we must avoid terms that have negative connotations or else people's views will be biased by the connotations - I think once you get into starcraft enough it is entirely more that Korea has a roster of players, as a country, that is as big or bigger and ALWAYS better than the entire rest of the world. Thus, they are the starcraft hub. Foreigner is such a useful term to describe what is going on when we have players fueled by the hype of nationalism and being non-korean, and none of the casters or big names in the community(who were all called "foreigners" when they played) take any offense to be ing called foreign.
@the article: I agree that Koreans are just better than foreigners, but I wonder if practicing for bo3s,5s, and 7s gives koreans a different skillset than foreigners. When foreigners finally get into tournament brackets, they may prepare some strats for their opponent. When koreans have the same situation and only one day to prepare, they can reflect on all their preparation for the matchup in the last year and have plans upon plans inherited from earlier preparation. Someone who follows international tournaments more than me should be able to tell if my idea has a little merit.
I mean, I can't presume to know what the editor's thought process here was. All I can say is, when I read "SHOUTCraft: The Wool Pulled Over Our Eyes", the first thing that came to my mind was 'did TB do something wrong with SHOUTCraft? That makes no sense. Did he piss some nerds off over something?'
Then I click the article and it's about the KR/foreigner gap. There's a pretty big disconnect between title and content, is what I'm saying.
On October 01 2017 05:42 htx.RuNe wrote: I mean, I can't presume to know what the editor's thought process here was. All I can say is, when I read "SHOUTCraft: The Wool Pulled Over Our Eyes", the first thing that came to my mind was 'did TB do something wrong with SHOUTCraft? That makes no sense. Did he piss some nerds off over something?'
Then I click the article and it's about the KR/foreigner gap. There's a pretty big disconnect between title and content, is what I'mEVERBODY IS saying.
FTFY
But let it go mate, I think the mods have made their case that it is fine by them. All we can do is discuss the comment.
On October 01 2017 03:49 the_last_terran1 wrote: Serral defeat Byun in an intensive match but even if i respect Serral, i can t imagine this victory with some minor problems playing bio style. From what i see on the second map (ascension to aiur) Byun reach the center of the map and constantly harass Serral, then Serral struggle and break the terran with the end game compoosition. I would likke to see Terran with less difficulty in struggling against the creep extension.. Byun bio style is one of the most efficient in starcraft 2 scene and i can t imagine his defeat, but it s look true : creep completely expand and He can t stop it..
Terran should be able to coontains Zerg on a front line along the creep with bunkers in increasing their capacity (from 4 to 5) and reducing his cost from 100 to 75. I hope you share my vision of the Terran bio style against zerg. In this case Zerg could switch with lurkkers and start a siege against the terran's bunker... etc .. This contain, creep against bunker could be interessant and create a new playstyle from both side.
On October 01 2017 16:55 FvRGg wrote: BTW why on earth is this under the front page news? This is barely an article let alone an opinion?
Affirmative action.
Let's find a way to shit on the first actually innovative tournament in ages, that has a huge price pool, great support from Blizzard, a huge viewer base and is organized by a guy who's saving esports with his left arm while beating cancer with his right one.
Seriously, if a guy wrote that, this would be moved to blogs, let alone be a featured article.
Edit: Apparently a guy DID write it, he just has a female avatar. Egg on my face.
On October 01 2017 16:55 FvRGg wrote: BTW why on earth is this under the front page news? This is barely an article let alone an opinion?
Affirmative action.
Let's find a way to shit on the first actually innovative tournament in ages, that has a huge price pool, great support from Blizzard, a huge viewer base and is organized by a guy who's saving esports with his left arm while beating cancer with his right one.
Seriously, if a guy wrote that, this would be moved to blogs, let alone be a featured article.
The article doesn't criticize the tournament though. You'd do well to read it first before commenting.
SHOUTcraft Kings has been one of the more compelling events since its inception in July of 2016. It’s a romantic concept: a Bo1, King of the Hill competition where the order and names of combatants are unknown. It’s as even a playing field as you can get for foreigners and Koreans alike. And that dynamic has not failed to disappoint fans hungering for entertainment and unexpected results.
Really shitting hard on SHOUTcraft here. You can really feel the hate.
On October 01 2017 18:57 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
On October 01 2017 16:55 FvRGg wrote: BTW why on earth is this under the front page news? This is barely an article let alone an opinion?
Affirmative action.
Let's find a way to shit on the first actually innovative tournament in ages, that has a huge price pool, great support from Blizzard, a huge viewer base and is organized by a guy who's saving esports with his left arm while beating cancer with his right one.
Seriously, if a guy wrote that, this would be moved to blogs, let alone be a featured article.
The article doesn't criticize the tournament though. You'd do well to read it first before commenting.
I did read it, twice, and there was so little substance that even four meager paragraphs felt like it was stretching the little content to the breaking point.
SHOUTcraft Kings has been one of the more compelling events since its inception in July of 2016. It’s a romantic concept: a Bo1, King of the Hill competition where the order and names of combatants are unknown. It’s as even a playing field as you can get for foreigners and Koreans alike. And that dynamic has not failed to disappoint fans hungering for entertainment and unexpected results.
Really shitting hard on SHOUTcraft here. You can really feel the hate.
On October 01 2017 18:57 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
On October 01 2017 16:55 FvRGg wrote: BTW why on earth is this under the front page news? This is barely an article let alone an opinion?
Affirmative action.
Let's find a way to shit on the first actually innovative tournament in ages, that has a huge price pool, great support from Blizzard, a huge viewer base and is organized by a guy who's saving esports with his left arm while beating cancer with his right one.
Seriously, if a guy wrote that, this would be moved to blogs, let alone be a featured article.
The article doesn't criticize the tournament though. You'd do well to read it first before commenting.
I did read it, twice, and there was so little substance that even four meager paragraphs felt like it was stretching the little content to the breaking point.
Fair criticism if you feel that way. We're not going to stop putting commentary pieces in featured news, though. Our writers contribute a ton and know a lot about the game and the scene. They deserve an outlet for their opinion given how much they do to keep people like you up to date with SCII. That's the decision we made internally.
Besides, commentary pieces are standard in any quality medium.
On October 01 2017 19:05 mortyFromRickAndMort wrote:
SHOUTcraft Kings has been one of the more compelling events since its inception in July of 2016. It’s a romantic concept: a Bo1, King of the Hill competition where the order and names of combatants are unknown. It’s as even a playing field as you can get for foreigners and Koreans alike. And that dynamic has not failed to disappoint fans hungering for entertainment and unexpected results.
Really shitting hard on SHOUTcraft here. You can really feel the hate.
Nothing you say before a "but" really counts.
The writer never says anything negative about the tournament itself. He argues that how it has played out has helped create a wrong narrative within the community. For how little substance you argue the article has, you sure as hell didn't understand it very well.
The article's title implies that someone wanted to decieve the masses that ShoutCraft's Bo1s are a good measure of relative skill. But... nobody ever assumes Bo1s are good for that. SC2 is too volatile and build order dependant. You need to look at bigger sample sizes and consistency. Which is apparent for anyone who actively follows the game for more than a month.
TotalBiscuit was pretty open about his intentions with the tournament. It's not about finding the best player. It IS about dramatic storylines and it IS relying on inconsistency of a Bo1.
You can try to construct a misleading narrative by taking a particular result (say, Nerchio's run in ShoutCraft) in a vacuum. But nothing happens in a vacuum. Foreigners lose to Koreans in ShoutCraft pretty much as often as one can expect. The latest event was defined by Gumiho's and Innovation's winning streaks.
So what was the point of this article and this dramatic title?
Funny, I didn't know SHOUTcraft is the reason many people believe the gap between Koreans and foreigners is closing. This is exactly what the article/opinion is saying though (unless I misread something). I wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh.
Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments.
On October 02 2017 07:44 jalstar wrote: To the people saying that no one thinks foreigners have closed the gap because of Shoutcraft... Did you read the thread?
On October 02 2017 09:08 FvRGg wrote: Quality of TL writing has really decreased in the past years, it's disappointing.
Starcraft is past the point of fevered NA basement dwellers no-life'ing a video game able to spin tales because all they do is fantasize. It's hard to expect the same kind of quality when E-sports became a global reality, its not the same. Some of those old school nerds would watch the same fucking replay/tourny game over and over again because it was the only thing of its kind, and the athletes and storylines were borderline mythical for its age. Now you wouldn't have enough hours in the day to watch every tournament across the genres (literally).
I'm not arguing for or against this or even advocating change. Anything that becomes marketable and mainstream will numb that exciting new experience and create an overall flavor instead of a brand new world. TL COULD bend over backwards and put in exceedingly more and more effort to create a disney-esque experience, but its not their business anymore (I'd argue never was, more a passion/happenstance). Once TL made that innocent leap towards capitalizing on a market they lost that magic, and honestly no one can rightfully blame them.
I think your statement is ambiguous on whether TL should feel ownership, I feel yeah on the disappointment buddy. Things change, it just means theirs a void to be filled and with the right mindset. That's opportunity.
What's with all the negativity? I thought it was a good article to spend a few minutes reading whilst having my morning coffee. Keep it up dude! Is it a click bait title? Maybe, I did think this was going to be some drama piece but it didn't bother me after reading the article.
It is way better than no content at all. Instead of complaining, why not write an article yourself and send it to TL to show them how you think things should be done?
On October 02 2017 07:18 Shinryus wrote: Funny, I didn't know SHOUTcraft is the reason many people believe the gap between Koreans and foreigners is closing. This is exactly what the article/opinion is saying though (unless I misread something). I wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh.
Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments.
I haven't followed the scene super closely the past 12 months but I think Neeb winning that tournament in Korea played a huge role in my perception. You see that result and you might think "maybe it's just Neeb closing the gap" or you think "one guy had one good result; it's not a trend" but then the SHOUTcraft results are used to counter those arguments. However at this point I think it's clear Neeb is actually far and away the best foreigner so it kind of is just him closing the gap. He dominates WCS events and yet is still seeing flaws in his own play and fixing them and getting even better. It's scary. Also it's becoming more and more clear that the SHOUTcraft results are not good predictors of traditional tournament results.
I thought Shoutcraft Kings was fairly open about how they select who to send in the ring to get a fun match. Atleast I was aware of that. Maybe should have mentioned that in the article, though they did also market it as foreigners vs koreans.
Still the only time someone could think it crafts a false storyline about foreigners and koreans is, if the people just look at the stats instead of what the show says it is. Maybe to proof a point or something ... OOOOOHHHH I get it now !
But ya the title is total clickbait for biscuit fans. And fans that get clickbaited by a title ... defense it first and then dont read it.
Part of the reason people are criticizing this article, I think, is that it's totally unnecessary. Accusations of 'clickbait' titles are accurate - imagine if the article was appropriately titled based on the subject matter :
'Korean SC2 players are clearly still the best in the world, despite Shoutcraft results'
Not much to be said here. Maybe an article about the historical disparity between online and offline results and how online performance effects offline performance, ect. That would have been interesting, at least, and maybe people would have learned something new.
I have to say I too was drawn to the topic by the eye drawing title, and for a piece written by Mizzie I thought it would have more substance than it does; his typical analysis isn't really present and I agree with NonY that it would have been interesting to have some analysis and numbers.
However, I would say that anyone who seriously believes the BO1, and by extension SHOUTcraft is a large factor of proof that foreign players are on par with or closing the gap with Korean players is being unrealistic. That's not to discredit the paragons of the foreign scene; there have been examples where foreigners have played and triumped against Korean race paragons in longer sets, but these are few and far between, and have been hailed as miracles and once in a life time performances.
One need only look to ProLeague to see just how fickle and simultaneously thrilling the BO1 format is; the "story lines", rivalries and sheer ballsy strategies and builds put into place to secure victory. MVP beating a team that otherwise should destroy them, sOs's game long hidden expansion in Overgrowth versus herO, Maru's 2 rax reaper rushes and his collosus reaving marauders, Rogue's idiosyncratic oddball strategies pulling off unpredictable wins. There are many examples.
SHOUTcraft definitely ups the ante by way of having the human e-sports phallus that is TB as master of the board, pitting players up against one another however he pleases; the players none-the-wiser on when they will be called upon to put the king to their sword or die trying.
TL;DR The point of SHOUTcraft, I feel, is to have a bite-sized, explosive and exciting experience for both players and viewers. It is a crucible. As long as we get to see amazing matches I don't care who wins. Sure, the format is coin flippy but it works both ways for both players. Add other deciding factors such as the difference in EU/NA/KR/ metas to deal with, raw form, connection latency and timezones. It's a big wall to climb, and regardless of who wins it's still impressive that the loser attempted to conquer it.
Not sure why I wrote this quite so whimsically. I guess I was channelling my inner Mizenhauer . props to TB for SHOUTcraft.
On October 02 2017 07:18 Shinryus wrote: Funny, I didn't know SHOUTcraft is the reason many people believe the gap between Koreans and foreigners is closing. This is exactly what the article/opinion is saying though (unless I misread something). I wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh.
Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments.
I haven't followed the scene super closely the past 12 months but I think Neeb winning that tournament in Korea played a huge role in my perception. You see that result and you might think "maybe it's just Neeb closing the gap" or you think "one guy had one good result; it's not a trend" but then the SHOUTcraft results are used to counter those arguments. However at this point I think it's clear Neeb is actually far and away the best foreigner so it kind of is just him closing the gap. He dominates WCS events and yet is still seeing flaws in his own play and fixing them and getting even better. It's scary. Also it's becoming more and more clear that the SHOUTcraft results are not good predictors of traditional tournament results.
Totally agree. I don't know if this came out right in my first comment but this is exactly what I meant when I said I wouldn't solely "blame" SHOUTcraft. I think there are many factors - especially the case of Neeb like you pointed out - that lead to the thinking of foreigners being able to close the gap. And honestly, I do think the gap closed a bit. That just doesn't mean that the gap isn't there anymore because it sure still is.
I guess I'm just still quite surprised that the focus here was laid on SHOUTcraft and nothing else. As far as I have perceived things, it didn't seem to me that SHOUTcraft was playing that huge factor and manipulated people into thinking that foreigners are finally able to beat up the Koreans. If anything, I think most people are very aware of the fact that online tournaments (especially a Bo1) do not necessarily speak the truth about the skill gap between two players. It has happened often enough in the past that Koreans wouldn't do well in an online tournament because they had a more important tournament coming up the next day (as an example). But maybe I'm just wrong and a lot of people did believe too much in the SHOUTcraft results?
Well, like I said before, the topic itself has so much to offer to discuss about. It's a bit sad the opportunity wasn't taken here. (I mean, another factor could also be how many Koreans have retired within the past 2 years which might have lowered the Korean competition a bit or maybe the disbandment of the KeSPA teams might have affected some Korean players more than others and they can't keep up their prior level anymore (thinking of Zest here, tbh). Just assuming though!)
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
And it's the job of an editor to say "The title you chose doesn't fit the article you wrote or meet our publishing standards." If you're willing to come to the defence of content that you're publishing, you don't also get to shirk responsibility for that content to the writer.
There's a lot of consensus in the feedback on this and I think you're taking it the wrong way.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
And it's the job of an editor to say "The title you chose doesn't fit the article you wrote or meet our publishing standards." If you're willing to come to the defence of content that you're publishing, you don't also get to shirk responsibility for that content to the writer.
There's a lot of consensus in the feedback on this and I think you're taking it the wrong way.
I wasn't the one editing this, but I don't mind the title myself and would have left it as is as well. Considering most people on here have no idea what a clickbait title is and that it requires intention to mislead, which was not present here, I don't care about the consensus opinion. The wording is provocative, sure, but that's it. It was also clearly marked as an opinion piece, which includes the title. And that's really all there is to it. People dislike the title, fair enough, noted.
On September 30 2017 04:47 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Wow I had no idea Koreans were still better thanks for writing an article to remind me.
LOL. And that clickbaity title too. TL needs some content quality editor or something
You're welcome to apply.
This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article.
And it's the job of an editor to say "The title you chose doesn't fit the article you wrote or meet our publishing standards." If you're willing to come to the defence of content that you're publishing, you don't also get to shirk responsibility for that content to the writer.
There's a lot of consensus in the feedback on this and I think you're taking it the wrong way.
I wasn't the one editing this, but I don't mind the title myself and would have left it as is as well. Considering most people on here have no idea what a clickbait title is and that it requires intention to mislead, which was not present here, I don't care about the consensus opinion. The wording is provocative, sure, but that's it. It was also clearly marked as an opinion piece, which includes the title. And that's really all there is to it. People dislike the title, fair enough, noted.
The consensus opinion *is* that the title is deliberately misleading. If that's what you disagree with, at least we're working on the same page now.
I think this quote from an article about clickbait applies, "Maybe that’s the best definition then, of clickbait: Did this post need to exist, or did you just make a thing for the sake of making a thing? In which case, BuzzFeed Does Clickbait. So does pretty much everyone."
It was about BuzzFeed doing clickbait. And perhaps it is wrong to label this article as "clickbait," but it seems there are two factions here in this thread.
The first are those who were mislead (whether intentionally or unintentionally) and thought that ShoutCraft had done something that had somehow fooled us. By reading the article, we know that they had not, in fact done anything to "fool" us.
The second is the camp that I am in, and they are those that wonder what the point of this article was. The primary points are that the Koreans are much better than Foreigners, the gap between them has not closed, and the misleading results in ShoutCraft has helped this false supposition that such an event had occurred.
The problem was that most people, I think, don't believe that Foreigners are all at the level of Koreans or that the gap has completely closed. In other words, we didn't need an article to tell us that Koreans are still much better than Foreigners.
There are those who believe that the gap is closed slightly or that Neeb is on par with some of the lower top level Protoss. But the article disregards any other argument that the gap had closed (a lot or a little) by focusing mainly on the misleading results of ShoutCraft. It acknowledges Neeb's win in KeSPA Cup and then their limited success in the GSL vs. the World, but it skims over those results to look at how the foreigners did at the IEMs and the less premier events of HSC. This is not to say that those tournaments have nothing to say about foreigners and Koreans, but the emphasis was on how badly the foreigners had done rather than a balanced look overall at how they had done.
There was also no look at the online results, which, we do know that they are not totally indicative of how good a foreigner is against a Korean, but I think they are useful in a limited manner. Byun's rise was predicted by his results in online events, and those who followed Neeb's online results against Protoss (especially Korean Protoss) were not as surprised that he did well against the Korean Protoss in KeSPA Cup.
I think the fact that Neeb won a tournament against a lot of top Koreans is kind of an indication that on some level he had (for that period of time) crossed that gap to overcome his Korean opponents. He then promptly jumped back over that gap afterwards, but people know that already.
Since the main point seemed to be that Koreans were better than foreigners, and none of the results over the past year had done anything to change that, there was in the comments, and for me, some question about why this article was written. If it just says things that we might already know or that many people have already expressed, then it's not offering anything new.
So other than memeing I wasn't sure whether to bother responding to this thread but, might as well get a paragraph or two out.
Having wool pulled over ones eyes involves them being ignorant to the facts in the first place. One of those facts in particular, which we were really damn clear on right from the start, is that Kings was created as an entertainment product first and a tournament second. We want storylines, we want surprise victories, we want the unexpected. The show is built around that, hence mystery competitors. At no point have we ever pretended that Kings is a benchmark for performance, ever. We've made it crystal clear that anyone can win in a BO1 and that players who are usually dominant in other formats sometimes perform very poorly in ours. Our viewers are constantly reminded of that, on a monthly basis during the casts.
I'd personally like to know who exactly we're talking about when we say that people are being fooled into believing that the gap is closing, because of Kings. Who exactly is using Kings in those kind of arguments? There is not a single quote in the entire article and even if there were, a few forum posts don't in any way represent the audience of over 100,000 that we bring in every event. It's frankly a bit insulting to think our audience is that stupid. They come to see good games and exciting twists and turns and that's what they get. That's why we pull in a casual audience that a lot of these other events can't. That's why we outgun GSL in viewership, sometimes even beat Dreamhacks, because we've built something with a different audience in mind, an audience that we've known is there for years and very few tournaments have bothered to cater to because their priority was first and foremost, integrity as a competition.
Rest assured I don't give a damn about that when it comes to Kings. I'll throw players to the wolves just to extend a streak. I'll put a player up against a player he's lost to the last 20 BO3s if it makes for a good story. There is nothing fair about Kings and yet... there is everything fair about Kings. If you are truly a progamer, you are expected to be able to perform against any opponent in any conditions. If you can't do that then maybe that's a skillset you need to expand. Not every tournament is going to give you weeks to prepare or second chances like dual-tournament formats, BO5s and BO7s. You either win, or you die. There's no middle ground to be found and to think that our audience would ever doubt that, have any delusion that somehow Kings is representative of the competitive results of the SC2 scene in general, is in itself delusional. We follow the scene, not the other way around. We're not getting quoted by other events to prove anything. We're quoting other events to establish credibility for our competitors and make casual fans aware of the wonderful, very much alive world that SC2s competitive scene has to offer. We're doing it by being, as SHOUTcraft has always been from its start in January 2010 in the beta, a gateway drug to SC eSports.
The scene needed something like this and that's reflected in our viewership. The scene needs more variety in its events, they've gotten way too cookie-cutter to the point where storylines across the year are lost in the fog simply because few people even seem to remember a tournament that happened a month ago, let alone what happened at the start of the season. This scene has a critical lack of stories. Blizzard has gone some way to alleviating that. It's excellent video packages and increased promotion across the client of current events is helping, but it's not enough. We need way, way more of it and frankly, there should be articles plastered all over TL about these events so everybody has no doubt in their mind what the storylines currently are.
They aren't though. Instead we get something like this. Blergh. I don't take it as a criticism of our event, the event has nothing to prove, it knows exactly what it is and so do the people watching it and casting it. I do however take it as a somewhat out of touch view of things that severely underestimates the intelligence of SC2s viewers. Well, as Vince McMahon once said when building his sports entertainment empire...
We, in the WWF, think that you, the audience, are quite frankly, tired of having your "intelligence insulted".
I'm sure as hell tired of having my audiences intelligence insulted.
EPT
by mizenhauer![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/bird_blue_16.png)
- Mizenhauer
Nerchio beat 
Dear, who was only a few days away from kicking off a GSL campaign that would see him reach the semifinals for the third consecutive season. At the very same event 
ByuN, at the height of his power, and 
I haven't really been plugged into the SC2 community for year(s) now and wouldn't really know much about the common sentiment regarding the foreigner/korean skill gap at this stage of the games life... so if nothing else it was interesting to read a bit about SC2 tournament results recently as my focus on BW lately has kind of limited the extent to which I've been keeping up with these things!~![[image loading]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/009/993/tumblr_m0wb2xz9Yh1r08e3p.jpg){kind=icon}
. props to TB for SHOUTcraft.
