EPTI wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh.
Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments.
[Opinion] SHOUTcraft: The Wool Pulled Over Our Eyes - Page 6
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Shinryus
Germany13 Posts
I wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh. Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On October 01 2017 10:31 Pr0wler wrote: Cleary North Korean plot to undermine South Korea's dominance ! btw I just watched Snute defeating Innovation in 45 minutes macro game... So, maaaaybe the gap is not as wide as some people claim. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On October 02 2017 07:44 jalstar wrote: To the people saying that no one thinks foreigners have closed the gap because of Shoutcraft... Did you read the thread? I interpreted that as sarcasm. Especially because of the first half of that post. | ||
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FvRGg
68 Posts
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
On October 02 2017 09:08 FvRGg wrote: Quality of TL writing has really decreased in the past years, it's disappointing. Starcraft is past the point of fevered NA basement dwellers no-life'ing a video game able to spin tales because all they do is fantasize. It's hard to expect the same kind of quality when E-sports became a global reality, its not the same. Some of those old school nerds would watch the same fucking replay/tourny game over and over again because it was the only thing of its kind, and the athletes and storylines were borderline mythical for its age. Now you wouldn't have enough hours in the day to watch every tournament across the genres (literally). I'm not arguing for or against this or even advocating change. Anything that becomes marketable and mainstream will numb that exciting new experience and create an overall flavor instead of a brand new world. TL COULD bend over backwards and put in exceedingly more and more effort to create a disney-esque experience, but its not their business anymore (I'd argue never was, more a passion/happenstance). Once TL made that innocent leap towards capitalizing on a market they lost that magic, and honestly no one can rightfully blame them. I think your statement is ambiguous on whether TL should feel ownership, I feel yeah on the disappointment buddy. Things change, it just means theirs a void to be filled and with the right mindset. That's opportunity. | ||
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JulDraGoN
Sweden370 Posts
I thought it was a good article to spend a few minutes reading whilst having my morning coffee. Keep it up dude! Is it a click bait title? Maybe, I did think this was going to be some drama piece but it didn't bother me after reading the article. It is way better than no content at all. Instead of complaining, why not write an article yourself and send it to TL to show them how you think things should be done? | ||
NonY
8750 Posts
On October 02 2017 07:18 Shinryus wrote: Funny, I didn't know SHOUTcraft is the reason many people believe the gap between Koreans and foreigners is closing. This is exactly what the article/opinion is saying though (unless I misread something). I wouldn't solely blame SHOUTcraft for that. That's kind of a tunnel vision and makes the article so misleading, tbh. Sad thing. The topic itself actually has a lot of potential for a lenghty, detailed article with back-and-forth arguments. I haven't followed the scene super closely the past 12 months but I think Neeb winning that tournament in Korea played a huge role in my perception. You see that result and you might think "maybe it's just Neeb closing the gap" or you think "one guy had one good result; it's not a trend" but then the SHOUTcraft results are used to counter those arguments. However at this point I think it's clear Neeb is actually far and away the best foreigner so it kind of is just him closing the gap. He dominates WCS events and yet is still seeing flaws in his own play and fixing them and getting even better. It's scary. Also it's becoming more and more clear that the SHOUTcraft results are not good predictors of traditional tournament results. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Still the only time someone could think it crafts a false storyline about foreigners and koreans is, if the people just look at the stats instead of what the show says it is. Maybe to proof a point or something ... OOOOOHHHH I get it now ! But ya the title is total clickbait for biscuit fans. And fans that get clickbaited by a title ... defense it first and then dont read it. | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
'Korean SC2 players are clearly still the best in the world, despite Shoutcraft results' Not much to be said here. Maybe an article about the historical disparity between online and offline results and how online performance effects offline performance, ect. That would have been interesting, at least, and maybe people would have learned something new. This presents no new or interesting information. | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
However, I would say that anyone who seriously believes the BO1, and by extension SHOUTcraft is a large factor of proof that foreign players are on par with or closing the gap with Korean players is being unrealistic. That's not to discredit the paragons of the foreign scene; there have been examples where foreigners have played and triumped against Korean race paragons in longer sets, but these are few and far between, and have been hailed as miracles and once in a life time performances. One need only look to ProLeague to see just how fickle and simultaneously thrilling the BO1 format is; the "story lines", rivalries and sheer ballsy strategies and builds put into place to secure victory. MVP beating a team that otherwise should destroy them, sOs's game long hidden expansion in Overgrowth versus herO, Maru's 2 rax reaper rushes and his collosus reaving marauders, Rogue's idiosyncratic oddball strategies pulling off unpredictable wins. There are many examples. SHOUTcraft definitely ups the ante by way of having the human e-sports phallus that is TB as master of the board, pitting players up against one another however he pleases; the players none-the-wiser on when they will be called upon to put the king to their sword or die trying. TL;DR The point of SHOUTcraft, I feel, is to have a bite-sized, explosive and exciting experience for both players and viewers. It is a crucible. As long as we get to see amazing matches I don't care who wins. Sure, the format is coin flippy but it works both ways for both players. Add other deciding factors such as the difference in EU/NA/KR/ metas to deal with, raw form, connection latency and timezones. It's a big wall to climb, and regardless of who wins it's still impressive that the loser attempted to conquer it. Not sure why I wrote this quite so whimsically. I guess I was channelling my inner Mizenhauer  . props to TB for SHOUTcraft. | ||
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Shinryus
Germany13 Posts
On October 02 2017 23:45 NonY wrote: I haven't followed the scene super closely the past 12 months but I think Neeb winning that tournament in Korea played a huge role in my perception. You see that result and you might think "maybe it's just Neeb closing the gap" or you think "one guy had one good result; it's not a trend" but then the SHOUTcraft results are used to counter those arguments. However at this point I think it's clear Neeb is actually far and away the best foreigner so it kind of is just him closing the gap. He dominates WCS events and yet is still seeing flaws in his own play and fixing them and getting even better. It's scary. Also it's becoming more and more clear that the SHOUTcraft results are not good predictors of traditional tournament results. Totally agree. I don't know if this came out right in my first comment but this is exactly what I meant when I said I wouldn't solely "blame" SHOUTcraft. I think there are many factors - especially the case of Neeb like you pointed out - that lead to the thinking of foreigners being able to close the gap. And honestly, I do think the gap closed a bit. That just doesn't mean that the gap isn't there anymore because it sure still is. I guess I'm just still quite surprised that the focus here was laid on SHOUTcraft and nothing else. As far as I have perceived things, it didn't seem to me that SHOUTcraft was playing that huge factor and manipulated people into thinking that foreigners are finally able to beat up the Koreans. If anything, I think most people are very aware of the fact that online tournaments (especially a Bo1) do not necessarily speak the truth about the skill gap between two players. It has happened often enough in the past that Koreans wouldn't do well in an online tournament because they had a more important tournament coming up the next day (as an example). But maybe I'm just wrong and a lot of people did believe too much in the SHOUTcraft results? Well, like I said before, the topic itself has so much to offer to discuss about. It's a bit sad the opportunity wasn't taken here. (I mean, another factor could also be how many Koreans have retired within the past 2 years which might have lowered the Korean competition a bit or maybe the disbandment of the KeSPA teams might have affected some Korean players more than others and they can't keep up their prior level anymore (thinking of Zest here, tbh). Just assuming though!) | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
On September 30 2017 12:53 Olli wrote: You're welcome to apply. This is an opinion piece and as such the writer is welcome to express their opinion and choose the title they feel most suits their article. And it's the job of an editor to say "The title you chose doesn't fit the article you wrote or meet our publishing standards." If you're willing to come to the defence of content that you're publishing, you don't also get to shirk responsibility for that content to the writer. There's a lot of consensus in the feedback on this and I think you're taking it the wrong way. | ||
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On October 04 2017 03:55 -Kaiser- wrote: And it's the job of an editor to say "The title you chose doesn't fit the article you wrote or meet our publishing standards." If you're willing to come to the defence of content that you're publishing, you don't also get to shirk responsibility for that content to the writer. There's a lot of consensus in the feedback on this and I think you're taking it the wrong way. I wasn't the one editing this, but I don't mind the title myself and would have left it as is as well. Considering most people on here have no idea what a clickbait title is and that it requires intention to mislead, which was not present here, I don't care about the consensus opinion. The wording is provocative, sure, but that's it. It was also clearly marked as an opinion piece, which includes the title. And that's really all there is to it. People dislike the title, fair enough, noted. | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
On October 04 2017 04:07 Olli wrote: I wasn't the one editing this, but I don't mind the title myself and would have left it as is as well. Considering most people on here have no idea what a clickbait title is and that it requires intention to mislead, which was not present here, I don't care about the consensus opinion. The wording is provocative, sure, but that's it. It was also clearly marked as an opinion piece, which includes the title. And that's really all there is to it. People dislike the title, fair enough, noted. The consensus opinion *is* that the title is deliberately misleading. If that's what you disagree with, at least we're working on the same page now. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
It was about BuzzFeed doing clickbait. And perhaps it is wrong to label this article as "clickbait," but it seems there are two factions here in this thread. The first are those who were mislead (whether intentionally or unintentionally) and thought that ShoutCraft had done something that had somehow fooled us. By reading the article, we know that they had not, in fact done anything to "fool" us. The second is the camp that I am in, and they are those that wonder what the point of this article was. The primary points are that the Koreans are much better than Foreigners, the gap between them has not closed, and the misleading results in ShoutCraft has helped this false supposition that such an event had occurred. The problem was that most people, I think, don't believe that Foreigners are all at the level of Koreans or that the gap has completely closed. In other words, we didn't need an article to tell us that Koreans are still much better than Foreigners. There are those who believe that the gap is closed slightly or that Neeb is on par with some of the lower top level Protoss. But the article disregards any other argument that the gap had closed (a lot or a little) by focusing mainly on the misleading results of ShoutCraft. It acknowledges Neeb's win in KeSPA Cup and then their limited success in the GSL vs. the World, but it skims over those results to look at how the foreigners did at the IEMs and the less premier events of HSC. This is not to say that those tournaments have nothing to say about foreigners and Koreans, but the emphasis was on how badly the foreigners had done rather than a balanced look overall at how they had done. There was also no look at the online results, which, we do know that they are not totally indicative of how good a foreigner is against a Korean, but I think they are useful in a limited manner. Byun's rise was predicted by his results in online events, and those who followed Neeb's online results against Protoss (especially Korean Protoss) were not as surprised that he did well against the Korean Protoss in KeSPA Cup. I think the fact that Neeb won a tournament against a lot of top Koreans is kind of an indication that on some level he had (for that period of time) crossed that gap to overcome his Korean opponents. He then promptly jumped back over that gap afterwards, but people know that already. Since the main point seemed to be that Koreans were better than foreigners, and none of the results over the past year had done anything to change that, there was in the comments, and for me, some question about why this article was written. If it just says things that we might already know or that many people have already expressed, then it's not offering anything new. | ||
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ClanWars
United States330 Posts
Having wool pulled over ones eyes involves them being ignorant to the facts in the first place. One of those facts in particular, which we were really damn clear on right from the start, is that Kings was created as an entertainment product first and a tournament second. We want storylines, we want surprise victories, we want the unexpected. The show is built around that, hence mystery competitors. At no point have we ever pretended that Kings is a benchmark for performance, ever. We've made it crystal clear that anyone can win in a BO1 and that players who are usually dominant in other formats sometimes perform very poorly in ours. Our viewers are constantly reminded of that, on a monthly basis during the casts. I'd personally like to know who exactly we're talking about when we say that people are being fooled into believing that the gap is closing, because of Kings. Who exactly is using Kings in those kind of arguments? There is not a single quote in the entire article and even if there were, a few forum posts don't in any way represent the audience of over 100,000 that we bring in every event. It's frankly a bit insulting to think our audience is that stupid. They come to see good games and exciting twists and turns and that's what they get. That's why we pull in a casual audience that a lot of these other events can't. That's why we outgun GSL in viewership, sometimes even beat Dreamhacks, because we've built something with a different audience in mind, an audience that we've known is there for years and very few tournaments have bothered to cater to because their priority was first and foremost, integrity as a competition. Rest assured I don't give a damn about that when it comes to Kings. I'll throw players to the wolves just to extend a streak. I'll put a player up against a player he's lost to the last 20 BO3s if it makes for a good story. There is nothing fair about Kings and yet... there is everything fair about Kings. If you are truly a progamer, you are expected to be able to perform against any opponent in any conditions. If you can't do that then maybe that's a skillset you need to expand. Not every tournament is going to give you weeks to prepare or second chances like dual-tournament formats, BO5s and BO7s. You either win, or you die. There's no middle ground to be found and to think that our audience would ever doubt that, have any delusion that somehow Kings is representative of the competitive results of the SC2 scene in general, is in itself delusional. We follow the scene, not the other way around. We're not getting quoted by other events to prove anything. We're quoting other events to establish credibility for our competitors and make casual fans aware of the wonderful, very much alive world that SC2s competitive scene has to offer. We're doing it by being, as SHOUTcraft has always been from its start in January 2010 in the beta, a gateway drug to SC eSports. The scene needed something like this and that's reflected in our viewership. The scene needs more variety in its events, they've gotten way too cookie-cutter to the point where storylines across the year are lost in the fog simply because few people even seem to remember a tournament that happened a month ago, let alone what happened at the start of the season. This scene has a critical lack of stories. Blizzard has gone some way to alleviating that. It's excellent video packages and increased promotion across the client of current events is helping, but it's not enough. We need way, way more of it and frankly, there should be articles plastered all over TL about these events so everybody has no doubt in their mind what the storylines currently are. They aren't though. Instead we get something like this. Blergh. I don't take it as a criticism of our event, the event has nothing to prove, it knows exactly what it is and so do the people watching it and casting it. I do however take it as a somewhat out of touch view of things that severely underestimates the intelligence of SC2s viewers. Well, as Vince McMahon once said when building his sports entertainment empire... We, in the WWF, think that you, the audience, are quite frankly, tired of having your "intelligence insulted". I'm sure as hell tired of having my audiences intelligence insulted. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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