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On September 16 2017 07:53 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Winning an offline tournament without preparation is also a skill, unfortunately Starleague won't show us that skill, but a GOAT should have both.
Yes, you are correct in that a GOAT should have both.
One of the finalists has won multiple Starleagues and multiple weekenders. The other has only won weekenders.
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On September 16 2017 07:58 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:53 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Winning an offline tournament without preparation is also a skill, unfortunately Starleague won't show us that skill, but a GOAT should have both. Yes, you are correct in that a GOAT should have both. One of the finalists has won multiple Starleagues and multiple weekenders. The other has only won weekenders.
But no Blizzcon and IEM Katowice, two of the most important weekenders. And I think this discussion can be ended here as there is no standard metric anyway.
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On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders.
I don't get why week-end tournaments don't have more prestige than other tournaments just bc it's on a weekend. There may be less time for "hype" to build up, but for someone who has started watching starcraft seriously in 2014, Blizzcon was the hypest tournament, which is a weekend tournament. To me, the whole point of Blizzcons was to invite those who have performed the best and have the battle of the best of the best. The format has changed since then, but the image is still there: in starcraft 2, blizzcon is the the biggest and the finale of the year, and the winner of blizzcon get the honor of becoming the "World Champion" for whatever it's worth.
So you have to give me more argument than just bc it's a weekend that it's less prestigious just bc it's on a weekend. I personally would say that what makes a tournament prestigious is not the format necessarily, but the investment and the players participating. If the tournament is stacked, a champion of that tournament certainly deserves that respect. However, a stacked tournament itself doesn't give the prestige; otherwise, Olimoleague win would mean something much more. Thus there has to be an "investment" of some kind. This typically means that there has to be at least a good prize pool, for players to actually care for the win while having an offline stage during the duration. It also means whether a lot of PR/hype went through it. If people care deeply about the result of a tournament, there's obviously some prestige in becoming the champion of it. There are a lot of other factors, which I am missing bc I am rambling at this point, but from my observations, the tournament format wasn't the factor that contributed to the "honor" of winning the tournament.
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On September 16 2017 07:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:37 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean players tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that.
You didn't answer the question why a "more weighted" tournament has produced more "passers-by" champions. Whereas IEM Katowice/Blizzcon and Korean weekenders have never produced such champions.
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On September 16 2017 08:21 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders. I don't get why week-end tournaments don't have more prestige than other tournaments just bc it's on a weekend. There may be less time for "hype" to build up, but for someone who has started watching starcraft seriously in 2014, Blizzcon was the hypest tournament, which is a weekend tournament. To me, the whole point of Blizzcons was to invite those who have performed the best and have the battle of the best of the best. The format has changed since then, but the image is still there: in starcraft 2, blizzcon is the the biggest and the finale of the year, and the winner of blizzcon get the honor of becoming the "World Champion" for whatever it's worth. So you have to give me more argument than just bc it's a weekend that it's less prestigious just bc it's on a weekend. I personally would say that what makes a tournament prestigious is not the format necessarily, but the investment and the players participating. If the tournament is stacked, a champion of that tournament certainly deserves that respect. However, a stacked tournament itself doesn't give the prestige; otherwise, Olimoleague win would mean something much more. Thus there has to be an "investment" of some kind. This typically means that there has to be at least a good prize pool, for players to actually care for the win while having an offline stage during the duration. It also means whether a lot of PR/hype went through it. If people care deeply about the result of a tournament, there's obviously some prestige in becoming the champion of it. There are a lot of other factors, which I am missing bc I am rambling at this point, but from my observations, the tournament format wasn't the factor that contributed to the "honor" of winning the tournament.
One can make an argument for blizzcon being similar to a starleague (though even there you run into problems). When talking about "weekenders" people usually mean the random dreamhack or IEM back in the day though. So why do these tournaments not count as much? (or shouldn't). Because the level of competition was much lower. Not every single notable korean could compete in these. Every single notable korean competes in starleagues. So yes it is the playing field which elevates a tournament. People always say "but Tajea had to beat three really strong koreans to win that title!" That completely misses the point though. It's not about havign to beat high profile players (basically only looking at the name/fame), it's about an entire scene (the inarguably most competitive scene: korea) trying to win that one tournament or not.
That's where the starleague fame/importance is coming from. That's why a dreamhack isn't even close to a GSL.
Now about Blizzcon, well as i said it might be more comparable to the starleagues simply because you qualify for it through having good placements in these starleagues. The problem is that this was/is only one way to qualify for it. Jaedong for example never did well in korea and only qualified through weekend tournaments. So you don't really get the best 16 players of the year, the system cannot produce this result simply because the tournament scene in sc2 was and still is split.
On September 16 2017 08:39 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 07:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 16 2017 07:37 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean players tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that. You didn't answer the question why a "more weighted" tournament has produced more "passers-by" champions. Whereas IEM Katowice/Blizzcon and Korean weekenders have never produced such champions.
What exactly do you mean with that? How do you define a "passers-by champion" ? I guess you are trying to say that noone has won blizzcon who didn't win other stuff while the same isn't true for GSLs for example?
1.) There are more GSLs than Blizzcons
2.) For blizzcon you have to qualify through doing well in other tournaments
Have a blizzcon every two months with a more open qualifier and there would be no difference in "passers-by" champions. Sample size.
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On September 16 2017 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 08:21 swissman777 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders. I don't get why week-end tournaments don't have more prestige than other tournaments just bc it's on a weekend. There may be less time for "hype" to build up, but for someone who has started watching starcraft seriously in 2014, Blizzcon was the hypest tournament, which is a weekend tournament. To me, the whole point of Blizzcons was to invite those who have performed the best and have the battle of the best of the best. The format has changed since then, but the image is still there: in starcraft 2, blizzcon is the the biggest and the finale of the year, and the winner of blizzcon get the honor of becoming the "World Champion" for whatever it's worth. So you have to give me more argument than just bc it's a weekend that it's less prestigious just bc it's on a weekend. I personally would say that what makes a tournament prestigious is not the format necessarily, but the investment and the players participating. If the tournament is stacked, a champion of that tournament certainly deserves that respect. However, a stacked tournament itself doesn't give the prestige; otherwise, Olimoleague win would mean something much more. Thus there has to be an "investment" of some kind. This typically means that there has to be at least a good prize pool, for players to actually care for the win while having an offline stage during the duration. It also means whether a lot of PR/hype went through it. If people care deeply about the result of a tournament, there's obviously some prestige in becoming the champion of it. There are a lot of other factors, which I am missing bc I am rambling at this point, but from my observations, the tournament format wasn't the factor that contributed to the "honor" of winning the tournament. One can make an argument for blizzcon being similar to a starleague (though even there you run into problems). When talking about "weekenders" people usually mean the random dreamhack or IEM back in the day though. So why do these tournaments not count as much? (or shouldn't). Because the level of competition was much lower. Not every single notable korean could compete in these. Every single notable korean competes in starleagues. So yes it is the playing field which elevates a tournament. People always say "but Tajea had to beat three really strong koreans to win that title!" That completely misses the point though. It's not about havign to beat high profile players (basically only looking at the name/fame), it's about an entire scene (the inarguably most competitive scene: korea) trying to win that one tournament or not. That's where the starleague fame/importance is coming from. That's why a dreamhack isn't even close to a GSL. Now about Blizzcon, well as i said it might be more comparable to the starleagues simply because you qualify for it through having good placements in these starleagues. The problem is that this was/is only one way to qualify for it. Jaedong for example never did well in korea and only qualified through weekend tournaments. So you don't really get the best 16 players of the year, the system cannot produce this result simply because the tournament scene in sc2 was and still is split. Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 08:39 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:43 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 16 2017 07:37 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote:On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean players tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that. You didn't answer the question why a "more weighted" tournament has produced more "passers-by" champions. Whereas IEM Katowice/Blizzcon and Korean weekenders have never produced such champions. What exactly do you mean with that? How do you define a "passers-by champion" ? I guess you are trying to say that noone has won blizzcon who didn't win other stuff while the same isn't true for GSLs for example? 1.) There are more GSLs than Blizzcons 2.) For blizzcon you have to qualify through doing well in other tournaments Have a blizzcon every two months with a more open qualifier and there would be no difference in "passers-by" champions. Sample size.
"passers-by" champions means those players who only win GSL once and didn't achieve anything else during their career.
There are more GSLs than Blizzcons, but Korean weekend tournament also include Ho6, Kespa, IEM Katowice, GSL ST, etc. So the total number is not much less than GSL (maybe more), the difference is weekend tournament champions are almost all very consistent throughout their career, whereas GSL produced more Sniper type of "champion".
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On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote:
Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the greatest ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs.
of course he won't become the greatest ever after he wins this GSL.
because that's what he already was before this GSL season even began.
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I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20.
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Don't fight about some stupid definitions! It is easy. Nobody, who has not won BlizzCon three times, is a GOAT.
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On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20.
TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back.
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My god that was a sick read! Ps inno really does remind me of Mvp back in the glory days which I never thought I would say. The complete package. Still rooting for sos here though
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On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back.
Come on dude don't be silly mvp will always be the best sc2 player of all time
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United States1893 Posts
On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote:
I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one.
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back.
We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy.
I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL.
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On September 16 2017 15:44 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Hype! Is this today?
yup, starts in a little less than an hour
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Good read... and I have to go to woooork ><
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Innovation is the GOAT in raw skill, results, ethics, and healthy body.
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Austria24420 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:14 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote:
I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning.
aka "I don't want to look at actual results because they don't match with my narratives." In my opinion Has is the greatest opinion of all time. Yes, results don't represent that but they mean nothing anyway. I saw him beating Jaedong with cannons which was so cool he's definitely the greatest. That's how you sound right now. edit: at least argue for Life as the GOAT. Inno beats Mvp in every single category + Show Spoiler + so arguing for him becomes laughable.
Oh Life came closest in my opinion. But as I explained earlier, "greatest" to me is not purely about raw skill. Greatness is about much more than that. A player who was banned for match fixing will never be the "greatest" of all time to me.
And you've been nothing but dismissive of anything that doesn't fit your own view, so we've got a real pot/kettle scenario here.
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And a player who played only a little time as Mvp couldnt be the greatest too. + Considering the low skill era back then.
If Anquetil had won the three Grand Tour the same year at the beginning of his career but had gone a year later due to injury or death, he wouldnt be the greatest GT Racer because of his short dominance.
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EPT
