- Grand FinalsCode S: Grand Finals
by mizenhauer
- Mizenhauer
The time has come. Code S crowns its final champion of 2017. Stats and GuMiho were worthy winners, but neither has remained consistent enough to take a second title. Stats came close, but was ultimately eliminated in the semifinals. And so two of the most decorated players in the history of StarCraft II meet in the Grand Finals of its most storied tournament.
Back in 2013 sOs was the talk of the town. He was Woongjin Stars’ ace in Proleague, recording the fourth-most wins in the 2012-2013 season. In individual leagues he quickly made a solid case that he was the best Protoss in Korea. Alongside INnoVation and Soulkey, sOs epitomized excellence over the first half of the year. But while the former two owed their success to rock-solid mechanics, sOs was something else entirely. Where INnoVation was rigidly loyal to his builds, sOs was unpredictable; where Soulkey was the perfect portrait of reactive Zerg, sOs dictated the terms of engagement. A Protoss with an electric and bewitching playstyle, sOs stood at the vanguard of KeSPA’s takeover.
Yet when INnoVation swept sOs in the finals of the 2013 WCS Season 1 Final, it was clear idiosyncrasy wasn’t enough. He had made deep runs in two consecutive tournaments only to fall against mechanically superior players. sOs could outfox anyone in a battle of wits; unfortunately, his endless creativity seemed to have met its match. He seemed doomed to a career of near misses. He would be good, even great, but never great enough to rise above his contemporaries.
How time changes one’s prospects. While Soulkey eventually retired and INnoVation constructed a legacy out of unerring consistency, sOs channelled a gift uniquely his own - the ability to catch lightning in a bottle, over and over and over again. Who would have thought that the flashy Protoss, who suffered such humiliating fates back in 2013, would find himself in this position? Today, he is only six wins away from usurping Mvp’s throne and replacing him as the greatest ever.
sOs is far from the first challenger to strive for the spot. There has been a lively history of dreamers, ranging from the merely good to legends, who have tried and failed. NesTea never posed a serious threat after summer 2011; MC’s periods of glory were too scattered. MMA faded away too quickly to establish a dominant era. TaeJa made his claim by laying waste to weekend tournaments while neglecting to make the same impact in GSL. Life’s flashes of irresistible force were compelling but cyclical, and he pretty much shot himself in the foot. Rain’s rigorous gameplay can’t compensate for his relatively paltry trophy room; Zest’s awe-inspiring 2014 led to chronic instability with extremely high peaks, yet similarly extraordinary lows; Classic never won enough events in a row. Dark has yet to match his braggadocio; soO might qualify as a candidate if there wasn’t such an emphasis on sufficient hardware. Only INnoVation has a legitimate stake in the race with his mastery of Korean Starleagues, as well as weekend tournaments, and he may entertain serious discussion if he wins this event.
sOs’ case is frequently overlooked when the community debates the candidates for GOAT status. The obvious roadblock is exposure. sOs never stood head and shoulders above his race, let alone the scene, for any extended period of time. Players like Life, Zest, TaeJa and INnoVation stood in the limelight uninterrupted for years. Meanwhile our quirky hero has always fought to be noticed amidst his preternaturally gifted peers. When he first emerged as an intriguing SC2 prodigy PartinG, then-Liquid'HerO and Rain hogged most of the attention. sOs’ fruitful 2013 was accompanied with an asterisk as his standing came with a dearth of Protoss victories everywhere else; with the exception of Dear’s exemplary finish to the year, fans of Aiur had to content themselves with meager wins from the likes of Sora and First. Zest drowned out all other whispers during 2014. From that point forward, first billing has been juggled between Classic, herO, sOs, and a couple of other Protosses.
sOs is known for one thing above all else: raking in the dough. He has an uncanny knack for turning it on at the critical moment, a trait that has been instrumental to reach this point. Without it he wouldn’t be a two-time BlizzCon champion and IEM World Champion, accomplishments that have earned the moniker “The $100,000 Man”. The nickname also owes a debt to his fleeting nature. sOs shines bright for brief stretches, then dims for many months. It’s frustrating, even infuriating for fans who are unnerved by sOs’ relaxed attitude during these periods. They know to bunker down for periods of interminable waiting. They learn to let their expectations wane in increments, all so their joy can be reignited when sOs returns to prominence in a flash.
Expect sOs to try his damnedest to disrupt InnoVation’s plans. He is also a master of planning over multiple games, although his forte lies in defying expectations rather than establishing them. with his unpredictability. sOs excels at tailoring builds to specific maps, abusing architecture and timings to blindside enemies. One only needs to watch his games on Derelict Watcher en route to his first BlizzCon victory, or his victories on Dash and Terminal during the second run, to witness his unconventional approach. A cannon rush here, a proxy oracle there—all his moves aim to disorient and distract the opponent. sOs knows how to control the pacing of a series better than anyone (except the other finalist), and it would be folly to forget that.
If sabotage and deception were the limits of his skillset, he would be a mere novelty act. sOs would be another entertaining player chained by the speed of his fingers. What separates sOs from other Protosses is his unnerving calm under pressure. Whether he's facing a 3-0 deficit in Proleague or match in which he is favored, he operates at an even keel. It’s hard to accentuate how important this trait is within the context of a match. All opponents, no matter how distinguished, are susceptible to fear and tilting; even the machine INnoVation fell apart after a lengthy pause at BlizzCon. They know that while sOs is terrifying in his own right, he has surely prepared for them specifically, and their vulnerability is as alluring to sOs as fresh blood is to the shark. It's his ability to embrace danger without blinking that sets him apart. Fearlessness makes sOs the most dreaded player in Korea.
No one would begrudge him if he was equally adamant about maintaining his advantages. sOs’ game versus TY on Catallena was emblematic of his strengths and weaknesses as a player.
Only sOs could throw TY into a tizzy with a few hallucinated stalkers, preying upon his opponent’s anxiety. On the flipside, somehow he found himself on the verge of throwing a won game. By now it is rote to assume his brand of bold risk-taking is synonymous with mercuriality. sOs oftentimes has a tenuous grasp on games, seeming in control one moment and completely lost another. Strange lapses of miscontrol are a hallmark. Units end up in the wrong places, timings go awry and everything crumbles. He seemingly loses focus and poof, a lead evaporates.
Such a glaring deficiency has been compensated in other ways. sOs, like all great players, has neutralized his sore spots with tenacity and alacrity. In the twilight of his glory and beset by wrist problems, Mvp dragged himself over the finish line with sheer will; Zest during his prime was at times predictable, yet nimbly dodged any situation where it would be the determining factor. Apropos of the profile up to this point, sOs doesn’t allow games to settle into a monotonous rhythm. He knows how to win ugly games so he forces them to be ugly.
The Season 1 and 3 quarterfinals were perfect demonstrations of his leaning towards chaos. They were not personifications of ‘good play’ by any stretch of the imagination. They showcased sloppy inefficient gameplay matched by sloppy, objectively questionable moves from both players. Should anyone have been surprised sOs came out on top in both scenarios? He thrives in situations where freestyle improvisation is king. Just as he can flawlessly execute the sort of timing that earned him his second BlizzCon, he can haul himself through the muck for thirty minutes and come out on the other side smiling.
sOs’ jocularity retreats into gloom when it comes to his performances at home. His proficiency with six digit prizes notwithstanding, his robust skillset has proved insufficient to conquer the last hurdle. The Korean Starleague looms over him like a advent of a thunderstorm. sOs has reached the semifinals of GSL five times—he has tripped and fallen on his face five times. He lost to Soulkey in 2013 and ByuL two years later: the first was closely contested, but a gap in readiness was evident against the CJ Entus Zerg. He got within reach of the promised land in 2016. He dismantled MyuNgSiK in the semifinals of the second season but looked equally helpless against ByuN and his tankivacs. sOs was far from being on soO’s level back in March, as his adept pressure was rebuffed at every turn. This season was a different story as he looked three steps ahead of Stats, particularly on Ascension to Aiur.
Three semifinals appearances in the last four GSLs is an impressive endnote to his resume. Any other player might be satisfied at finding this level of consistency. But not sOs. When the book finally closed on HotS sOs had earned five premier events, but he’d never reached the finals of a GSL. Like a certain Terran of note he had become the king of weekenders; in the same vein, the phrase was employed as a compliment and a putdown. Just as TaeJa is bemoaned for lack of success in Korea, sOs hungers for this missing accomplishment to round out his oeuvre.
When sOs takes the stage and stares down INnoVation, it will be the first leg of a two part journey. The first (and hardest) part will guarantee him a ticket to BlizzCon if he succeeds; from there, he will be daring the unthinkable. It’s a simple formula but it has taken 5 years to culminate in this moment.
sOs quickly established himself as a top 5 Protoss during the opening months of his SC2 career and despite oscillating form, he’s held that position over most of the the past four years. His unique playstyle has made him resilient to the sweeping balance changes and tectonic shifts in the landscape of the Korean scene. His story parallels INnoVation’s journey, who also boasts longevity and professional recognition. Both are already in the conversation for greatest of all time. The outcome of this series, and what happens at BlizzCon, will probably see one of them coronated as the greatest of all time.
But sOs hasn’t reached this point by looking ahead. In fact, when he enters the booth, it hardly seems like the world exists beyond that series. The crowd cheers, the announcer's shout and the lights sweep across the stage. sOs emerges as champion and smiles like it was nothing.
We’ve seen this movie before.
Four years ago, INnoVation was the undisputed king of Terran in Korea. Whether it was Proleague or individual competition, he was practically unstoppable. The man who was yet to be a machine showed no regard for the pedigree of his opponents, chewing them up and spitting them out with bland disinterest. But even a million flawlessly executed parade pushes couldn’t wipe away the tarnish that was his baffling loss to Soulkey in the GSL finals. Both fans and detractors were shocked that INnoVation showed so little foresight, so much hesitation when facing Soulkey’s last feeble card. From that point INnoVation was described as a fundamentally flawed player. He continued to garner the respect accorded to any top player, but for years any praise was carefully couched in apologetic terms.
INnoVation paid no mind to the criticism, the insults and mockery. It was on June 9th that he first usurped the crown and supplanted Mvp as king of Korean StarCraft in a declaration of dominance. He beat the legend himself in the semifinals before sweeping the finals 4-0. His opponent that day was a mercurial Woongjin Stars Protoss, acclaimed for his quickness of mind and idiosyncratic builds.
More than four years later and once more sOs bars INnoVation’s way. It’s fitting that the two-time world champion is the only man who can deny history in the making. Beyond words like serendipity is the undeniable fact that sOs is possibly INnoVation’s sole remaining rival for the keys to Mvp’s decaying kingdom.
StarCraft 2 is a game where players are often chasing rather than forging their own path. The profession rewards youth and drive over planning and long term thinking. Time is compressed to an insane degree compared to traditional sports. Barely 18 years covers the combination of Brood War and SC2: everything is figuratively draped in the shadows of the past. The dual threats of inevitable military service and new games encroaching on their turf bestow urgency on every moment. Trophies lifted, ace match victories, a reverse all-kill, these are moments that shine against the bleak reality of the profession. They are what the fans and players live for.
But it’s impossible to encapsulate an entire career in a single moment, let alone ride one to financial security. This vicious business is littered with one-time champions, cursory heroes who faded away before their names stuck, popular mascots who never struck it rich. Even the notable names have little to fall back upon after their glory days are finished. Dear once caught lightning in a bottle; Maru, ByuN and Zest reached similarly ascendant heights. Where are they now? What place does the future hold for them? There are no fan conventions for the likes of MarineKing, no stock options to assuage NesTea’s growing anxiety.
Yet, if one were to watch one of INnoVation’s games from his WCS 2017 campaign—his finals versus Stats in Gyeonggi, his triumph over TY at GSL vs the World, his semifinal victory over Dark less than a week ago—they would be hard pressed to ignore his greatness. In a scene where reaching the Ro16 of GSL alone is a godsend, INnoVation has entered a surreal realm where only championships matter. He began his SC2 career as a typhoon, the peerless sort of force that was allergic to mediocrity. Since then he’s won four Starleagues, two IEMs and most recently GSL vs The World. He’s been the best player in the world for more than half a year. INnoVation is a hair’s breadth away from being considered the greatest to ever play StarCraft 2.
The discourse around anointing the GOAT usually involves a lot of posturing, fettering for facts and disbelief that anyone could disagree with the final conclusion. It’s an abode for fans who love hypotheticals and speculation, the type of activity that rewards reflection and data without providing a general framework from which to evaluate them. No surprise that GOAT discussions often end in rage or peter out in pat conclusions. There’s too much to calculate, compare and contrast...unless of course someone truly separates himself from the pack. Just this year he's won SSL and GSL vs The World. Before that, he emerged atop challenging fields at IEM Gamescom and Gyeonggi, GSL Season 3 in 2014 and ‘15 and, way back when, the WCS Season Finals in which he defeated sOs. On top of all that, he managed second place finishes in GSL and Dreamhack Bucharest in 2013, with two additional Starleague semifinals since making the switch to StarCraft 2. When all said and done, where does that rank? What would a third GSL title do to enhance INnoVation’s legacy?
Let’s shed the whole machine identity for a moment. After all, it was always fiction. What started as a humorous observation became a meme, and the meme became a narrative that swallowed up all the possible ways we could talk about him. But if INnoVation is not an amalgam of unfailing mechanics seeking a Blade Runner-esque redemption arc, what is he?
INnoVation is nearly impossible to prepare for. Once upon a time, critiques insightfully pointed out his stubbornness with build orders; while it proved far easier to dissect his gameplay than to counter it, he was largely predictable with his choices. Today his catalog is far more robust and combined with the fact that he just seems to have more than every other Terran, situations look hopeless before the games start. Ever since his mortifying loss to Soulkey, INnoVation has developed into one of the best series planners in SC2 history. INnoVation has posted an astounding 28-6 record in his last seven Bo7 finals. This streak, dating back to his victory against soO in 2014 GSL Season 3, is highlighted by an even more mind-boggling 24-3 record through games 2-6. Be it against soO or the 4-3 win over Dark that brought him here, INnoVation has a sense for dictating the pace, tempo and direction of a series that cannot be taught. The prodigy who crumbled in his first GSL finals is not the one who will take the stage in search of his third Code S championship.
The self-assuredness required to pull off this feat is commonly mistaken for apathy. INnoVation is not emotionless (despite our most boorish wishes!). Just because he doesn’t cry when he loses or spout water like some CJ branded whale when he wins does not mean he lacks feelings. He is a stoic in the ancient sense of the word: in control of his emotions as much as he controls the game. His current attitude is a far cry from his travails during 2013-2014. One could make a compelling case that he was too emotional back then, too easily thrown off by slight disturbances in his plans, and his withdrawn nature exacerbated his condition. I recall one of his worst moments occurring at BlizzCon 2014, when an absurdly long pause shattered his composure and handed the match to TaeJa. Since then he has failed and succeeded with more grace and serenity. He keeps his head high, resuming the match as dialed in as ever.
INnoVation will take the stage on September 16th as the prohibitive favorite. There are those who contend that INnoVation has never challenged for the title of best StarCraft 2 player ever. He has less GSL titles than Mvp, less GSL finals appearances then soO, less premier event titles than Taeja and less BlizzCon victories than sOs. He can’t surpass them in one fell swoop this Saturday. Frankly, I doubt he will concern himself with such wistful thinking. INnoVation’s career has been built deliberately. Brick by brick, one victory after another. It’s about the foundation as much as it is the heights. INnoVation will approach the finals like every other game in his career. He’ll leave it to the fans to label him the best ever. For him, it’s just another match that needs to be won.
sOs vs INnoVation: Code S Grand Finals Preview
Forum Index > SC2 General |
sOs vs INnoVation: Code S Grand Finals PreviewSeptember 15th, 2017 10:53 GMT
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Ej_
47656 Posts
If the possessive form is also descriptive, you drop the apostrophe + Show Spoiler + ur welcome mizen, 1st | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
sOs’ jocularity retreats into gloom when it comes to his performances at home. His proficiency with six digit prizes notwithstanding, his robust skillset has proved insufficient to conquer the last hurdle. The Korean Starleague looms over him like a advent of a thunderstorm. sOs has reached the semifinals of GSL five times—he has tripped and fallen on his face five times. He lost to Soulkey in 2013 and (Z)ByuL two years later: the first was closely contested, but a gap in readiness was evident against the CJ Entus Zerg. He got within reach of the promised land in 2016. He dismantled (P)MyuNgSiK in the quarterfinals of the second season but looked equally helpless against ByuN and his tankivacs. sOs was far from being on soO’s level back in March, as his adept pressure was rebuffed at every turn. This season was a different story as he looked three steps ahead of (P)Stats, particularly on Ascension to Aiur. sOs actually played MyuNgSiK in the semis and ByuN in the finals. Yes MyuNgSiK actually reached GSL semis once, however shocking it may be. | ||
Cricketer12
United States13831 Posts
"LOL INNO IS GONNA WIN CUZ HES THE GOAT!" | ||
Sakat
Croatia1599 Posts
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Kerdinand
Germany113 Posts
Go $O$!! | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 15 2017 21:31 Sakat wrote: If Inno wins tomorrow he has the same amount of GSLs as Mvp, right? The same amount of GSLs but more Starleagues (4 to 3) and more korean weekenders (2 to 1) At that point you need some huge bias to still put Mvp above him. | ||
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Elentos
55454 Posts
On September 15 2017 22:19 Golgotha wrote: I'm in Korea and I really want to see this. does it cost a lot to go? where is the location? It's at the GSL studio. Pretty sure it doesn't cost a thing but you need to be there early because the people who get their tickets first get the best seats. | ||
AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
Love how you portray each warrior! sOs creativity level is equal to Innovation's methodical execution. This will be an amazing FINALS!! HYPUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU | ||
hexhaven
Finland855 Posts
On September 15 2017 22:19 Golgotha wrote: I'm in Korea and I really want to see this. does it cost a lot to go? where is the location? More info http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/526774-2017-gsl-season-3-finals-information | ||
DSh1
292 Posts
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Veluvian
Bulgaria256 Posts
On September 15 2017 21:31 Sakat wrote: If Inno wins tomorrow he has the same amount of GSLs as Mvp, right? Not yet. Innovation achieved 2 GSL CODE S titles by now, while Mvp has 4. In this case we are not mentioning GSL Season 1 Grand finals 2013 against sOs and the recent GSL vs the World, because those tournaments are not "CODE S". | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
On September 15 2017 23:19 Veluvian wrote: Not yet. Innovation achieved 2 GSL CODE S titles by now, while Mvp has 4. In this case we are not mentioning GSL Season 1 Grand finals 2013 against sOs and the recent GSL vs the World, because those tournaments are not "CODE S". If GSL vs the World doesn't count because it's not Code S, Mvp has 3 GSL code S wins, not 4. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 15 2017 23:19 Veluvian wrote: Not yet. Innovation achieved 2 GSL CODE S titles by now, while Mvp has 4. In this case we are not mentioning GSL Season 1 Grand finals 2013 against sOs and the recent GSL vs the World, because those tournaments are not "CODE S". No. OP is correct. Mvp holds 3 GSL Code S titles. His fourth GSL was the "GSL World Championship" which invited 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans to compete in teamleague and an individual league. Format sound familiar? Inno has already won 2 GSL Code S titles and GSL vs the World (equivalent to GSL World Championship). He is currently in the finals of a 3rd GSL Code S. If he wins tomorrow then yes, Inno is Mvp's equal. With regard to the actual preview, some superb writing coming from Mizenhauer (as expected). I really like that you've discarded the Machine narrative for once, while entertaining, it oftentimes blots out the other aspects of Inno's character. Though being honest, I think the part about sOs is actually better-written than the part about Inno. Also, I was surprised at the statistics for Inno's finals. He has a reputation for brutally onesided finals, but I still never realized how dominant he was in a Bo7 with everything on the line. ByuN gave Inno a SSS rating for mental game, said that his composure just isn't affected by wins or losses. He also compared Inno to Flash. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
Is that just speculation or does Nestea really has money problem? | ||
Lgnarrow
104 Posts
1.Life 2.Mvp 3.Inno Tbh Inno doesnt need that much to become the GOAT for me.(2 more starleagues and he gets it) I would just like to add that for me Mvp's GSLs were easier to win because there were dozens of them when Mvp was playing. In 2011 there were 9 GSLs. In comparison in 2013-2016 there were 12 GSLs titles to get. Thats why I rank Mvp's titles a little bit lower. That's my opinion you dont have to agree :D PS. it would be so great if stuchiu updated his list | ||
iamho
3344 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4725 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
People know my position on the GOAT discussion so i won't start it anew. I don't see how sOs wants to win 4 games here tbh, he might win one or two with some cheese but after that? I cannot see it. | ||
Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2206 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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Blargh
United States2074 Posts
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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stilt
France2632 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
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Isualin
Turkey1903 Posts
p.s: just looked it up, there are not many 4-0's, my memory failed me | ||
Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 04:43 Solar424 wrote: Innovation isn't an incredibly consistent player. If you look at his career in 6 month chunks he's incredibly consistent, but when you look at his career as a whole it's like a roller coaster. His run of GSL quarterfinals in 2012-2013 was impressive, but during his time on Acer he was average at best in individual leagues. His 2016 mirrored this: after looking unstoppable at the end of 2015 he dropped out in the Ro8 at Blizzcon and didn't win a single match in Starleagues in 2016 (he lost to Stork in Code A!) 2017 has been the most consistent year for Innovation thus far, but even then he's had some hiccups, like getting 3-0'd in the first round of Super Tournament. I can't help but feel the cycle will repeat itself, the question is whether it will happen at this finals or at Blizzcon. 2016 can't be included in that, Inno confirmed himself that his poor form was due to playing League (external factor). 2014 had a little thing called the blink era, and the WM nerf as well. Aside from that, I think his career's highs and lows aren't particularly unusual, nowhere near a "rollercoaster." Despite all the memes, Inno is only human, he has good days and bad days. On the whole, I would call him reasonably consistent based on the fact that he's managed to stay at or near the top of Korean SC2 for basically his entire career, but he has also choked too many times to be called "incredibly consistent." And being honest, Inno is frequently overhyped. While he certainly looks insanely dominant at times, making other top-tiers look like gold league players at one tournament doesn't mean that he will do the same at every tournament. But people still expect him to be invincible when he's at his peak, and call it choking when he bleeds. When you are repeatedly called the best player in the world (as Inno has been for all of 2017) the only way you can move is down. | ||
J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
Great write-up. Looking forward to an excellent finals!!! | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 04:45 pvsnp wrote: 2016 can't be included in that, Inno confirmed himself that his poor form was due to playing League (external factor). 2014 had a little thing called the blink era, and the WM nerf as well. Aside from that, I think his career's highs and lows aren't particularly unusual, nowhere near a "rollercoaster." Despite all the memes, Inno is only human, he has good days and bad days. On the whole, I would call him reasonably consistent based on the fact that he's managed to stay at or near the top of Korean SC2 for basically his entire career, but he has also choked too many times to be called "incredibly consistent." And being honest, Inno is frequently overhyped. While he certainly looks insanely dominant at times, making other top-tiers look like gold league players at one tournament doesn't mean that he will do the same at every tournament. But people still expect him to be invincible when he's at his peak, and call it choking when he bleeds. When you are repeatedly called the best player in the world (as Inno has been for all of 2017) the only way you can move is down. INnoVation playing League is like the least external factor I've ever heard of. Besides, you're making that argument for INnoVation as if demotivation or distractions didn't factor into the poor form of every other player. This is why Mvp is the GOAT in my eyes and will remain so even if INnoVation wins this. He dropped off only when his body caved in - and then he still won a GSL, reached another finals and won a WCS. Not being able to feel your fingers - that's an external factor you can't control. Playing LoL is definitely not. INnoVation has dropped off the map at multiple points of his career, but people forget all about it because he really dominates when he's in form. Fact is that his peak in 2013 lasted for 3 months. His time on Acer was largely mediocre. He came back in 2014 and won a GSL in which the strongest two players in the tournament (Zest and Rain) were knocked out in the other bracket and he got to face soO in the finals. But it's a GSL, fair enough. He was quite good at the time. He was very good in late 2015 when the metagame heavily favored his style of play and no Zergs had an answer to mech. He then did nothing at all in 2016. Playing LoL is not an excuse for poor performances, if anything that should be held against him, not used as an excuse. People talk of INnoVation as this consistent player when he's never actually been that. He has longevity, not consistency. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:03 Olli wrote: INnoVation playing League is like the least external factor I've ever heard of. Besides, you're making that argument for INnoVation as if demotivation or distractions didn't factor into the poor form of every other player. This is why Mvp is the GOAT in my eyes and will remain so even if INnoVation wins this. He dropped off only when his body caved in - and then he still won a GSL, reached another finals and won a WCS. Not being able to feel your fingers - that's an external factor you can't control. Playing LoL is definitely not. INnoVation has dropped off the map at multiple points of his career, but people forget all about it because he really dominates when he's in form. Fact is that his peak in 2013 lasted for 3 months. His time on Acer was largely mediocre. He came back in 2014 and won a GSL in which the strongest two players in the tournament (Zest and Rain) were knocked out in the other bracket and he got to face soO in the finals. But it's a GSL, fair enough. He was quite good at the time. He was very good in late 2015 when the metagame heavily favored his style of play and no Zergs had an answer to mech. He then did nothing at all in 2016. Playing LoL is not an excuse for poor performances, if anything that should be held against him, not used as an excuse. People talk of INnoVation as this consistent player when he's never actually been that. He has longevity, not consistency. An external factor in terms of evaluating his consistency. League has nothing to do with SC2, nothing to do with Inno's ability to adapt to the current meta or devise builds or, in short, remain consistent within the game. You can't use League as a justification for saying "Inno is inconsistent" because it's external to SC2, that's what I meant by "external factor." I can understand how somebody might think I meant "external factor" in terms of motivation. Playing League can be held against him on a personal level, if you so choose, but not on the skill level. Mvp being injured is definitely an external factor as well. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what would have or could have happened to his career if he wasn't. And while it certainly earns him my sympathy, he doesn't get any artificial bonuses to his skill level simply because he was injured. GOAT is a measurement of skill (or rather, a measurement of achievements that theoretically reflect skill). Inno has obviously peaked and slumped, but I don't know if I would say he's ever "dropped off the map" aside from the aforementioned 2016. Regarding his GSL victories, it's true that Inno won two trophies against the Kongs soO and ByuL. It's also true that Mvp won two of his trophies against an older Kong MKP. But as you said, it's a GSL, fair enough, and Mvp was also quite good at the time. Inno was good in late 2015, true enough. But the myth that no Zerg had an answer to mech is exactly that: a myth. Sure, turtle mech was a strong style, but it wasn't unbeatable by any means. Gumiho was commonly cited alongside Inno as the best mech player, and ByuL dominated him 3-0 in the Ro8. ByuL also beat Inno 3-2 in SSL. In the GSL finals, Inno meched twice, and went 1-1. A Kong lost 1 game out of 6 to the style in the finals. Not exactly the hallmark of invincibility. Many Zergs lost to mech, sure, but there most certainly existed a viable answer and counter. Longevity, consistency, Inno has both. It's fair to say he has more longevity than consistency, but he is hardly Dear. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1552 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:31 pvsnp wrote: An external factor in terms of evaluating his consistency. League has nothing to do with SC2, nothing to do with Inno's ability to adapt to the current meta or devise builds or, in short, remain consistent within the game. You can't use League as a justification for saying "Inno is inconsistent" because it's external to SC2, that's what I meant by "external factor." I can understand how somebody might think I meant "external factor" in terms of motivation. Playing League can be held against him on a personal level, if you so choose, but not on the skill level. Mvp being injured is definitely an external factor as well. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what would have or could have happened to his career if he wasn't. And while it certainly earns him my sympathy, he doesn't get any artificial bonuses to his skill level simply because he was injured. GOAT is a measurement of skill (or rather, a measurement of achievements that theoretically reflect skill). Inno has obviously peaked and slumped, but I don't know if I would say he's ever "dropped off the map" aside from the aforementioned 2016. Regarding his GSL victories, it's true that Inno won two trophies against the Kongs soO and ByuL. It's also true that Mvp won two of his trophies against an older Kong MKP. But as you said, it's a GSL, fair enough, and Mvp was also quite good at the time. Inno was good in late 2015, true enough. But the myth that no Zerg had an answer to mech is exactly that: a myth. Sure, turtle mech was a strong style, but it wasn't unbeatable by any means. Gumiho was commonly cited alongside Inno as the best mech player, and ByuL dominated him 3-0 in the Ro8. ByuL also beat Inno 3-2 in SSL. In the GSL finals, Inno meched twice, and went 1-1. Many Zergs lost to mech, sure, but there most certainly existed a viable answer and counter. Longevity, consistency, Inno has both. Only Rogue and ByuL could beat mech with any regularity. In the end, the only game INnoVation lost with mech in the finals was the result of him forgetting an upgrade. I think given time Zergs would have figured out how to beat mech, but at that moment in time it was as close to unbeatable as any comp in SC 2 history barring BL/Infestor and maybe Blink and INnoVation was one of the primary abusers. That's not so say he didn't have exceptional skill with bio, but trying to say mech was anywhere close to a level playing field or even only "slightly Terran favored" is hogwash. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:36 mizenhauer wrote: Only Rogue and ByuL could beat mech with any regularity. In the end, the only game INnoVation lost with mech in the finals was the result of him forgetting an upgrade. I think given time Zergs would have figured out how to beat mech, but at that moment in time it was as close to unbeatable as any comp in SC 2 history barring BL/Infestor and maybe Blink and INnoVation was one of the primary abusers. That's not so say he didn't have exceptional skill with bio, but trying to say mech was anywhere close to a level playing field or even only "slightly Terran favored" is hogwash. Oh it was Terran-favored for sure. How significantly is arguable. But my point was that the idea of turtle mech being some invincible freewin style is just a myth, it lost plenty of games. It's biggest actual advantage was that it allowed players to reverse the traditional Terran-aggressor role in TvZ, and put the onus on Zerg (with its relatively weaker offensive options) to win the game on a timer. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
I guess only players who never were on top, so players who are consistently mediocre? | ||
PuddleZerg
United States82 Posts
On September 15 2017 22:19 Golgotha wrote: I'm in Korea and I really want to see this. does it cost a lot to go? where is the location? The information is literally on the front page of TL. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just wanna ask which player would be considered "consistent" by that standard olli I guess only players who never were on top, so players who are consistently mediocre? Mvp was very consistent. And come on, there are players who never dropped off as hard as INnoVation did. Many of them in fact. You can't do nothing for a whole year and be called consistent. And that's not counting his mediocre time on Acer. As for external factors, there's no world in which a professional SC2 player neglecting his practice to play another game is an external factor or can be treated as such. Of course it impacts his ability to play properly, make decisions, pick proper builds and prepare for matches. It's silly to think otherwise. If you're not putting in proper practice and preparation, your play will suffer. Besides, nobody ever makes that excuse for anyone else. sOs was supposedly lazy and didn't practice much, does that count as an external factor too? It's part of the player and therefore not external. So is INnoVation getting distracted by LoL. Now an external factor that can be talked about as such is something you can't control that impacts your ability to play. Such as an injury, especially the kind Mvp had. Or KT players moving out of their practice environment, real life events, etc. The thing people don't understand is that the GOAT is the greatest of all time, not the raw best ever. And in that context Mvp's injury is absolutely relevant because it made what he did a million times more impressive. How he pressed on through that and did what he did is nothing but great. Especially when you consider that all it supposedly took for INnoVation to drop off for a whole year was League of Legends. | ||
Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
Go sOs! | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:20 Olli wrote: Mvp was very consistent. And come on, there are players who never dropped off as hard as INnoVation did. Many of them in fact. You can't do nothing for a whole year and be called consistent. And that's not counting his mediocre time on Acer. As for external factors, there's no world in which a professional SC2 player neglecting his practice to play another game is an external factor or can be treated as such. Of course it impacts his ability to play properly, make decisions, pick proper builds and prepare for matches. Now an external factor is something you can't control that impacts your ability to play. Such as an injury, especially the kind Mvp had. The thing people don't understand is that GOAT is the greatest of all time, not the raw best ever. And in that context, Mvp's injury is absolutely relevant because it made what he did a million times more impressive. Especially when you consider that all it supposedly took for INnoVation to drop off for a whole year was League of Legends. Mvp was consistent for not even a year, that's it. It's absurd to compare that to other players who had way longer careers. It's not hist fault ofc but that doesn't matter here. I agree that Inno playing lol is not a real external factor. And yes he had drop offs, but at the end of the day he showed the ability to always come back with enough dedication. I actually think "consistency" is useless as a term if we wanna be that strict simply because i don't think any top player ever could be labeled as consistent. I heavily disagree with the argument that the injury should have any positive effect on that judgement. It simply happened and he had to deal with it and then even basically retire because of it. That's it. You might admire that he was able to do well despite of it, but we don't judge other players by that standard either. What about players losing family/friends and thus havign emotional pain? Nobody would care. There are a million different "external factors" which could play a role, it's irrelevant. What matters are the results. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. And 2 years is essentially most of his career. He was already playing with injury then. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. If a single GSL win is all that it takes to be consistent for a year, Inno was consistent through 2014. Also, I think you are using a different definition of GOAT than I am. I view it quite simply as the most-accomplished player (and ipso facto most skilled), period. Purely their skill in SC2 and their achievements thereof. Otherwise imo the definition of GOAT becomes too subjective, based on how "impressive" a particular player was at a particular time, to a particular fan. Impossible to ever get a clear answer that way, everyone just picks their favorite player. | ||
DieuCure
France3713 Posts
And mean "he could have won..." = speculation We can do the same thing saying that without his LoL year INno could have won another GSL | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
There are arguments to be made for all the above criteria, all of them certainly make sense. But you can't use blink and LoL as excuses for INnoVation dropping off and then claim you're purely looking at objective facts. And you definitely can't argue that your criteria are more objective than mine for whatever reason. You picked them and neglected others. This is always a subjective argument. You saying the most accomplished player is the best player ever is literally you making that judgment, and I heavily disagree with that. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. By the way, Mvp was consistent for 2 years, unless you think a GSL win and another finals in 2012 is somehow not consistent. And 2 years is essentially most of his career. He was already playing with injury then. The context is given by the level of play in korea. If you wanna add more and more context it becomes wishy washy because it's incredibly subjective. The example i used illustrates that pretty well, what about a pro player who hypthetically loses his family in a terrible car accident or something like that. Would it be more impressive if he went and won starleagues? What about another pro player who has some sort of learning disability. There are so many things which could be brought into this and i frankly think it's absurd because you never know all the details about all these players. Like a lot of players have problems with their hands/fingers for example. Yes it was worse for Mvp but how do you evaluate the differences? Extremely subjective and wishy washy. Well it really depends how strict you wanna be tbh. Like i can easily make a case that after his first GSL win in January his results were fairly mediocre until his next GSL win (even though he won that WC thing). The next three code S seasons he was top32, code a and top32. I am sure other players would have been criticized for that. Stuchiu even claims mvp dominated the scene for two years. It's ridiculous. Mvp had still good results in 2012 (the ones you mentioned) but most of the year was mediocre. If that is enough to be consistent (after having a way better 2011) then i am not sure if we should use the term at all | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:55 Olli wrote: Almost as if it were an entirely subjective argument to begin with. Because the criteria you use already make it so. Yours are different to mine. You could value achievements compared to how long a player's active career lasted and Mvp would outshine everyone easily. You could measure length of sustained peak performance and overall dominance. You could take competition into account. You've earlier taken the blink dominance in 2014 into account to explain why INnoVation's poor early-mid 2014 shouldn't be read too much into. There are arguments to be made for all the above criteria, all of them certainly make sense. But you can't use blink and LoL as excuses for INnoVation dropping off and then claim you're purely looking at objective facts. And you definitely can't argue that your criteria are more objective than mine for whatever reason. You picked them and neglected others. Well, every argument is inherently subjective, of course. At the end of the day it's a lowest-common-denominator sort of thing, and if one guy has two shelves of big trophies compared to another guy's one shelf of big trophies, I think most people will tend to favor Guy #1 as GOAT. Like I said in the other thread, GOAT status will be incontestable once a player has won: 1. Most tournaments 2. Most Starleagues Quantity + quality. Intuitively, that's a conceptualization of GOAT that everyone can grasp easily, and arguing against such a GOAT would require considerably more effort, more questionable assumptions/interpretations/etc than agreeing with it. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote: Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the best ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:03 pvsnp wrote: I would agree that GOAT cannot be determined by this GSL alone. If Inno wins he will be closer, true, but it still wouldn't be incontestable. To make him GOAT, I would expect Inno to win at least one more Starleague (most Starleagues) and two more weekenders (most trophies) on top of this GSL. sOs on the other hand is nowhere close to being GOAT. He hasn't won a single Starleague yet. And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:44 Olli wrote: I don't agree one bit, and I've argued this so many times now I won't bore you with it again. Raw numbers mean nothing, context is what gives them meaning. aka "I don't want to look at actual results because they don't match with my narratives." In my opinion Has is the greatest opinion of all time. Yes, results don't represent that but they mean nothing anyway. I saw him beating Jaedong with cannons which was so cool he's definitely the greatest. That's how you sound right now. edit: at least argue for Life as the GOAT. Inno beats Mvp in every single category + Show Spoiler + except bias I guess | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote: And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean player tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. | ||
fishjie
United States1519 Posts
*i hate inno he is a boring faceless korean, no emotion, no care. i root for him to lose, and hope SOS stomps him, like soulkeys awesome reverse sweep, but face it that ain't gonna happen | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: The bw scene defined that. There only really were starleagues and proleague. Sc2 adopted that, every notable korean players tries to win starleagues. They all come together and compete in offline qualifiers to have a chance to win the tournament. That was never true for weekend tournaments (in general). That's what people don't understand who argue in favor of Taeja (as an example). No it is not the same to win vs some good koreans at a dreamhack, the lvl of competition at that dreamhack is still <<<< the competition in a korean starleague. Blizzcon is weird because the qualification process is so different. But sure we could consider it at a similar level at least. (though it's tough because essentially the weaker weekender results feed directly into it) At least blizzcon surely creates a lot of motivation simply because of the prizepool, so there is that. 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:13 Alarak89 wrote: And who defined Starleague have more weight than other tournaments? Everyone can have his own definition of GOAT, I can say No Blizzcon title No GOAT for example. The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote: The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. Seem like most ot them prefer to go to Blizzcon instead of GSL final. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:37 Alarak89 wrote: 1. BW and SC2 are two completely different games, so the method to judge the GOAT need to be updated as well. 2. Seed, Sniper, jjakji are all GSL champion, are they better players than those "weaker weekenders"? Can you find any those kind of "champion" in Blizzcon/IEM Katowice/Korean weekend tournaments? I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:42 Alarak89 wrote: And countless players (ofc including Bogus) said going to Blizzcon "is about the prestige" (and the money) as well. If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote: If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Winning an offline tournament without preparation is also a skill, unfortunately Starleague won't show us that skill, but a GOAT should have both. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:53 Alarak89 wrote: Winning an offline tournament without preparation is also a skill, unfortunately Starleague won't show us that skill, but a GOAT should have both. Yes, you are correct in that a GOAT should have both. One of the finalists has won multiple Starleagues and multiple weekenders. The other has only won weekenders. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:58 pvsnp wrote: Yes, you are correct in that a GOAT should have both. One of the finalists has won multiple Starleagues and multiple weekenders. The other has only won weekenders. But no Blizzcon and IEM Katowice, two of the most important weekenders. And I think this discussion can be ended here as there is no standard metric anyway. | ||
DubiousC2
129 Posts
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:39 pvsnp wrote: The progamers defined it. And their definiton holds more weight than yours, I'm afraid. Your idol, sOs said himself that winning GSL is about the prestige, not the money. TY said the same about winning GSL compared to IEM Katowice, soO said the same about winning a lesser tournament (Kespa Cup). It's simply an established truth that Starleagues > weekenders. I don't get why week-end tournaments don't have more prestige than other tournaments just bc it's on a weekend. There may be less time for "hype" to build up, but for someone who has started watching starcraft seriously in 2014, Blizzcon was the hypest tournament, which is a weekend tournament. To me, the whole point of Blizzcons was to invite those who have performed the best and have the battle of the best of the best. The format has changed since then, but the image is still there: in starcraft 2, blizzcon is the the biggest and the finale of the year, and the winner of blizzcon get the honor of becoming the "World Champion" for whatever it's worth. So you have to give me more argument than just bc it's a weekend that it's less prestigious just bc it's on a weekend. I personally would say that what makes a tournament prestigious is not the format necessarily, but the investment and the players participating. If the tournament is stacked, a champion of that tournament certainly deserves that respect. However, a stacked tournament itself doesn't give the prestige; otherwise, Olimoleague win would mean something much more. Thus there has to be an "investment" of some kind. This typically means that there has to be at least a good prize pool, for players to actually care for the win while having an offline stage during the duration. It also means whether a lot of PR/hype went through it. If people care deeply about the result of a tournament, there's obviously some prestige in becoming the champion of it. There are a lot of other factors, which I am missing bc I am rambling at this point, but from my observations, the tournament format wasn't the factor that contributed to the "honor" of winning the tournament. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't quite understand. You asked why starleagues have more weight and i answered it. I didn't say other tournaments have no weight which makes both your points basically invalid. 1. Well it is, other tournaments obviously "count" as well, just less than starleagues. 2. Not necessarily no, if other players have enough good results to outweigh the starleague titles. Obviously not only the title counts for Jjakji, etc, all his results do. It's not about "jjakji has ONE starleague therefore he is higher on the ranking than taeja who has none" Noone reasonable would say that. You didn't answer the question why a "more weighted" tournament has produced more "passers-by" champions. Whereas IEM Katowice/Blizzcon and Korean weekenders have never produced such champions. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:21 swissman777 wrote: I don't get why week-end tournaments don't have more prestige than other tournaments just bc it's on a weekend. There may be less time for "hype" to build up, but for someone who has started watching starcraft seriously in 2014, Blizzcon was the hypest tournament, which is a weekend tournament. To me, the whole point of Blizzcons was to invite those who have performed the best and have the battle of the best of the best. The format has changed since then, but the image is still there: in starcraft 2, blizzcon is the the biggest and the finale of the year, and the winner of blizzcon get the honor of becoming the "World Champion" for whatever it's worth. So you have to give me more argument than just bc it's a weekend that it's less prestigious just bc it's on a weekend. I personally would say that what makes a tournament prestigious is not the format necessarily, but the investment and the players participating. If the tournament is stacked, a champion of that tournament certainly deserves that respect. However, a stacked tournament itself doesn't give the prestige; otherwise, Olimoleague win would mean something much more. Thus there has to be an "investment" of some kind. This typically means that there has to be at least a good prize pool, for players to actually care for the win while having an offline stage during the duration. It also means whether a lot of PR/hype went through it. If people care deeply about the result of a tournament, there's obviously some prestige in becoming the champion of it. There are a lot of other factors, which I am missing bc I am rambling at this point, but from my observations, the tournament format wasn't the factor that contributed to the "honor" of winning the tournament. One can make an argument for blizzcon being similar to a starleague (though even there you run into problems). When talking about "weekenders" people usually mean the random dreamhack or IEM back in the day though. So why do these tournaments not count as much? (or shouldn't). Because the level of competition was much lower. Not every single notable korean could compete in these. Every single notable korean competes in starleagues. So yes it is the playing field which elevates a tournament. People always say "but Tajea had to beat three really strong koreans to win that title!" That completely misses the point though. It's not about havign to beat high profile players (basically only looking at the name/fame), it's about an entire scene (the inarguably most competitive scene: korea) trying to win that one tournament or not. That's where the starleague fame/importance is coming from. That's why a dreamhack isn't even close to a GSL. Now about Blizzcon, well as i said it might be more comparable to the starleagues simply because you qualify for it through having good placements in these starleagues. The problem is that this was/is only one way to qualify for it. Jaedong for example never did well in korea and only qualified through weekend tournaments. So you don't really get the best 16 players of the year, the system cannot produce this result simply because the tournament scene in sc2 was and still is split. On September 16 2017 08:39 Alarak89 wrote: You didn't answer the question why a "more weighted" tournament has produced more "passers-by" champions. Whereas IEM Katowice/Blizzcon and Korean weekenders have never produced such champions. What exactly do you mean with that? How do you define a "passers-by champion" ? I guess you are trying to say that noone has won blizzcon who didn't win other stuff while the same isn't true for GSLs for example? 1.) There are more GSLs than Blizzcons 2.) For blizzcon you have to qualify through doing well in other tournaments Have a blizzcon every two months with a more open qualifier and there would be no difference in "passers-by" champions. Sample size. | ||
Alarak89
United States880 Posts
On September 16 2017 09:08 The_Red_Viper wrote: One can make an argument for blizzcon being similar to a starleague (though even there you run into problems). When talking about "weekenders" people usually mean the random dreamhack or IEM back in the day though. So why do these tournaments not count as much? (or shouldn't). Because the level of competition was much lower. Not every single notable korean could compete in these. Every single notable korean competes in starleagues. So yes it is the playing field which elevates a tournament. People always say "but Tajea had to beat three really strong koreans to win that title!" That completely misses the point though. It's not about havign to beat high profile players (basically only looking at the name/fame), it's about an entire scene (the inarguably most competitive scene: korea) trying to win that one tournament or not. That's where the starleague fame/importance is coming from. That's why a dreamhack isn't even close to a GSL. Now about Blizzcon, well as i said it might be more comparable to the starleagues simply because you qualify for it through having good placements in these starleagues. The problem is that this was/is only one way to qualify for it. Jaedong for example never did well in korea and only qualified through weekend tournaments. So you don't really get the best 16 players of the year, the system cannot produce this result simply because the tournament scene in sc2 was and still is split. What exactly do you mean with that? How do you define a "passers-by champion" ? I guess you are trying to say that noone has won blizzcon who didn't win other stuff while the same isn't true for GSLs for example? 1.) There are more GSLs than Blizzcons 2.) For blizzcon you have to qualify through doing well in other tournaments Have a blizzcon every two months with a more open qualifier and there would be no difference in "passers-by" champions. Sample size. "passers-by" champions means those players who only win GSL once and didn't achieve anything else during their career. There are more GSLs than Blizzcons, but Korean weekend tournament also include Ho6, Kespa, IEM Katowice, GSL ST, etc. So the total number is not much less than GSL (maybe more), the difference is weekend tournament champions are almost all very consistent throughout their career, whereas GSL produced more Sniper type of "champion". | ||
ZertoN
Germany214 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:01 Olli wrote: Well I'm not having this argument again. INnoVation won't be the greatest ever if he wins this, not in my book. Same goes for sOs. of course he won't become the greatest ever after he wins this GSL. because that's what he already was before this GSL season even began. | ||
p1cass0
46 Posts
The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. | ||
Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 12:25 p1cass0 wrote: I don't understand why TL writers always underestimate innovations achivements while most posts seem to have different opinion. Even his consistency is denied for certain lose or some bad time. This is HUGE bias. While critisizing inno's one single gsl final four years ago and unproductive 2016 again and again, you seem to have forgot that any other players you flattered had much more awkward moments, and how inno made them look like Code B player during his prime. Numbers don't lie. INnoVation and Byun have a huge lead in career winrates and HoF points (They both have over 10000 while taeja and life have only about 1500). Considering Byun has gained much more easy points from online/foreign tournaments, there is no doubt that INnoVation ist the BEST player ever. If he's not GOOD enough to become GOAT, you will never have one. The only thing INnoVation lacks to become the undisputed GOAT is a Blzcon Champion, like Messi's lack of World Cup. He' s ahead in every other important aspect. I could accept (not agree) putting Life over Inno, not anyone else. Because he has Blzcon, Korean Starleagues, and he was good. Talking Mvp has one more GSL Titles (maybe until today) is totally unfair. If there were like 9 GSLs per year from 2013 to 2017 and all those Kespa players Stats, Zest, TY, sos, Soo, Dark, herO ect. except INno himself are still playing Broodwar, he might have 20. TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. | ||
igay
Australia1178 Posts
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igay
Australia1178 Posts
On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote: TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. Come on dude don't be silly mvp will always be the best sc2 player of all time | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1552 Posts
On September 16 2017 14:53 Charoisaur wrote: TL writers just hate Inno for some reason (Mizenhauer even admitted it) and don't want to realize the truth so they write 1000 articles on why Mvp is the goat despite having less achievements because he won with a broken back. We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL. | ||
Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On September 16 2017 15:44 Twinkle Toes wrote: Hype! Is this today? yup, starts in a little less than an hour | ||
Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:14 Charoisaur wrote: aka "I don't want to look at actual results because they don't match with my narratives." In my opinion Has is the greatest opinion of all time. Yes, results don't represent that but they mean nothing anyway. I saw him beating Jaedong with cannons which was so cool he's definitely the greatest. That's how you sound right now. edit: at least argue for Life as the GOAT. Inno beats Mvp in every single category + Show Spoiler + except bias I guess Oh Life came closest in my opinion. But as I explained earlier, "greatest" to me is not purely about raw skill. Greatness is about much more than that. A player who was banned for match fixing will never be the "greatest" of all time to me. And you've been nothing but dismissive of anything that doesn't fit your own view, so we've got a real pot/kettle scenario here. | ||
DieuCure
France3713 Posts
If Anquetil had won the three Grand Tour the same year at the beginning of his career but had gone a year later due to injury or death, he wouldnt be the greatest GT Racer because of his short dominance. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Isualin
Turkey1903 Posts
"rise like a phoenix" is a much better sign | ||
IIEclipseII
Germany153 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:45 pvsnp wrote: If you are going to seriously argue that being the best out of 8 foreigners and 8 Koreans over a couple days is somehow superior to being best out of 32 Koreans (or maybe with a few foreigners these days) over a couple months..... .....yeah, there's no point in continuing this discussion. A Starleague requires more skill to win, and that should simply be self-evident. Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO. | ||
DieuCure
France3713 Posts
wrong channel | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 18:19 ejozl wrote: Blizzcon also factors in how you did the entire year. It's supposed to be the culmination and end all tournament and I think it is. I personally value Blizzcon higher than GSL and I think a lot of players do as well. I agree that Blizzcon was more stacked pre WCS top 8 KR top 8, but the tournament still holds more prestige IMO. Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion. But a Starleague takes more skill to win. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 15:35 mizenhauer wrote: We're individuals, not some collective entity. I know you pointed me out specifically (which I appreciate), but for some reason people seem to think we're some hive mind coven bent on selling Inno short or boosting TaeJa's reputation. The fact that our opinions align is not some conspiracy. I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. I don't particularly like INnoVation, but I'm not ignorant to his achievements. A big part of being the GOAT to me is significance to the history of the game. Mvp will forever be a pillar of StarCraft 2. What he did to not just shape strategy, but define what it meant to be a champion was unprecedented and still unmatched. As for inno, one could argue that soO is far more important to the history of StarCraft 2 despite being the less decorated player. Inno is the most winningest player in StarCraft 2, but by my definition that doesn't make him the GOAT even if he wins GSL. but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote: I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. That is basically my argument as well, we should only look at tournament results to define GOAT. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:03 pvsnp wrote: Blizzcon does have more prestige, because bigger $$$ prizepool, there's more PR and hype, and the winner gets the title of World Champion. But a Starleague takes more skill to win. I don't disagree, but you yourself said that to be GOAT you have to be the most accomplished. I'm saying that a Blizzcon win is more accomplishing than a GSL title. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote: I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. It's in the same vein as that 'Liquid bias' thing in PRs. People are fans of players and don't like other players. Everyone who disagrees must be biased, because clearly your own criteria are the only objective ones. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:17 ejozl wrote: I don't disagree, but you yourself said that to be GOAT you have to be the most accomplished. I'm saying that a Blizzcon win is more accomplishing than a GSL title. Why? If GOAT is a measurement of skill, as it should be, then we measure accomplishments because there is no way to directly and objectively measure skill. Accomplishments are (theoretically at least) the product of skill, so the biggest accomplishments are those which require the highest skill to achieve. i.e, GSL | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:19 Olli wrote: I don't have anything against INnoVation. He's just not the greatest player to ever play SCII in my book. If you think I have to have that opinion or otherwise I'm biased, then perhaps you're just a tad bit stubborn. I see him as a close second to Mvp, who, based on what I value in competitors, will take extraordinary things to surpass. INnoVation has already bypassed Life in my book. So I find it really funny whenever that bias argument is brought up. Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Okay it might not necessarily be anti-Inno bias but certainly pro-Mvp bias. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1552 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:11 Charoisaur wrote: I know it's not a conspiracy but with you, Olli and previously Stuchiu there are already 3 TL writers with a huge anti-Inno bias. but I think this "significance to the history of the game" is 99% subjective and shouldn't be valued because everyone has a different opinion on it. I could argue that Inno was way more important for that because he refined terran strategies for 4 years with everyone else copying him. I just don't think anything except pure results should be counted because it's the only thing that is (somewhat) objectively measurable. The rest is just bias. How does not liking a player, but recognizing his achievements constitute bias? Do I have be one of the fan boys constantly lauding their favorite players to be considered objective? I'm off the opinion that all the blatant Inno fan boys are far more biased than I. And a final note since you talk about everyone copying Inno and his impact over the last four years. Until the second half of this year Maru was more consistent than Inno. From 2013-2017 he was a top 2 Terran at every point of the game. Inno was strictly worse than him for almost all of 2014, the first half of 2015 and all of 2016 while Maru was 2nd to Inno in late 2014 and 2015 when Inno was the best. Maru was far more important to Terrans during that period as he showed it was possible to beat Protoss and exhibited a style all his own that was impossible to replicate. People don't even copy Inno either. TY, aLive, Maru, GuMiho all have their own identities as players with unique playstyles. The concept of mongo macro Terrans is completely outdated and died with Flash. Even Inno isn't one of them anymore. No one else plays him. When soO was practicing for the finals he said Inno was a terrible practice partners because Inno just did the Inno build every game. It's his alone so I don't know where you're getting any of this. It's really just blatant Inno bias. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:23 Charoisaur wrote: Well, I already said that in my book only results count and the rest is bias. So when you argue that Inno isn't the goat, not because he lacks the achievements but because of the "context" of his wins then that is for me bias. Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. | ||
ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:19 pvsnp wrote: Why? If GOAT is a measurement of skill, as it should be, then we measure accomplishments because there is no way to directly and objectively measure skill. Accomplishments are (theoretically at least) the product of skill, so the biggest accomplishments are those which require the highest skill to achieve. i.e, GSL I think Blizzcon has a bigger entry and I think it's more top heavy as well. It's very easy to imagine, lets say, TY vs Stats finals. This could easily happen in both GSL and Blizzcon, but I think winning that match in Blizzcon holds more value, since there's the prestige of Blizzcon and everything that comes with it. They both will try and peak their skill around Blizzcon because it's the one they want the most, they will both have the biggest jitters here and mind games will have a bigger impact since both will be so focused on winning. If it was only about the player pool then an olimoleague or Ballistix Brawl could hold more value than a GSL and I think that's the wrong way to look at it. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote: Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:31 Charoisaur wrote: Imo in fact every GSL title is worth the same. For DHs one has to consider the playing field aka how many top 10-15 koreans play in the tournament. This ofc can't be done 100% objectively but when one looks at the results the participating players had in that period you get a general idea where that tournament ranks in comparison. Yet somehow that doesn't apply to GSL? Why not? | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:34 Olli wrote: Yet somehow that doesn't apply to GSL? Why not? because in GSL every single top player is participating every time. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:35 Charoisaur wrote: because in GSL every single top player is participating every time. That doesn't matter one bit if you never face them. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:28 Olli wrote: Look, by your reasoning every GSL title is equally impressive. So is every Dreamhack and so on. So when Taeja won DH Bucharest without dropping a map in a bracket with Yugioh, sOs, Life and INnoVation, that's worth the same as him beating Bly, SaSe, Targa and ForGG at DH Summer and dropping maps. And that's stupid. No other way to put it. So no, your criteria are not objective. They're in fact extremely lacking. Yes every GSL win is pretty much the same if we don't go into further detail about different eras. Why? Because the whole kroean field wants to win it. Every korean tries to win it. That creates a consistent competitive level. Your dreamhack example doesn't work because the playing field was different there. On September 16 2017 20:36 Olli wrote: That doesn't matter one bit if you never face them. Ofc it does matter. In fact the exact path doesn't really matter. Every time an "upset" happens it simply means the underdog on paper was better at that time. Ofc this is a bit simplified but over a big enough sample size everything basically evens out towards that. In theory looking at the path would be better if you could make sure to be extremely precise with how good each player was at the exact time at the matchup. But that's not possible and anyone who says he actually accomplished it is full of shit. Not to mention that even specific matchup rankings would not be 100% accurate because different styles of players can also make a difference. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:36 Olli wrote: That doesn't matter one bit if you never face them. when you face a "weak" opponent who previously eliminated a "better" player then at that tournament the weak player was probably the stronger player out of them. Example: Neeb faced Trap in the Kespa Cup finals who previously eliminated TY in a bo5. Trap may not be as accomplished as TY but at that tournament he was probably in a better form and thus it's at least just as impressive that Neeb beat Trap. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:40 Charoisaur wrote: when you face a "weak" opponent who previously eliminated a "better" player then at that tournament the weak player was probably the stronger player out of them. Example: Neeb faced Trap in the Kespa Cup finals who previously eliminated TY in a bo5. Trap may not be as accomplished as TY but at that tournament he was probably in a better form and thus it's at least just as impressive that Neeb beat Trap. This is based on the idea that the better player always wins, which pretty much every pro will tell you is nonsense. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:43 Olli wrote: This is based on the idea that the better player always wins, which pretty much every pro will tell you is nonsense. This is a question of philosophy basically. "Better" means winning the game. Anything else is purely hypothetical. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1552 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:40 Charoisaur wrote: when you face a "weak" opponent who previously eliminated a "better" player then at that tournament the weak player was probably the stronger player out of them. Example: Neeb faced Trap in the Kespa Cup finals who previously eliminated TY in a bo5. Trap may not be as accomplished as TY but at that tournament he was probably in a better form and thus it's at least just as impressive that Neeb beat Trap. Winning one series does not make you a better player, it just means you played better that series. Trap outplayed TY in one series, but was likely the worse player throughout the course of the tournament. Compare this to WESG where Maru was by far a better player than TY throughout the entire tournament (if you recall he didn't drop a match until the finals), but we all know who won in the Bo7 when they finally played. Form fluctuates from series to series, but it's usually clear which player is objectively better. This is why every liquibet isn't a 50/50 split. One player is always the favorite and almost always for good reason. | ||
pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:30 ejozl wrote: I think Blizzcon has a bigger entry and I think it's more top heavy as well. It's very easy to imagine, lets say, TY vs Stats finals. This could easily happen in both GSL and Blizzcon, but I think winning that match in Blizzcon holds more value, since there's the prestige of Blizzcon and everything that comes with it. They both will try and peak their skill around Blizzcon because it's the one they want the most, they will both have the biggest jitters here and mind games will have a bigger impact since both will be so focused on winning. If it was only about the player pool then an olimoleague or Ballistix Brawl could hold more value than a GSL and I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Well, at that point you are trying to factor in unquantifiable factors like how much each player "wants" to win a tournament. While that distinction is clear between online and offline tournaments, for instance, I don't know how you can really draw that distinction between GSL and Blizzcon. Sure, players probably "want" to win a Blizzcon more, but how large is that difference? And if you decide to consider factors like that, why not consider the factors of flying to the US, of practice partners available, of some player getting sick, or a thousand others? I prefer to stick to the (reasonably) quantifiable, objective measures, like time, player pool, and trophies. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:47 mizenhauer wrote: Winning one series does not make you a better player, it just means you played better that series. Trap outplayed TY in one series, but was likely the worse player throughout the course of the tournament. Compare this to WESG where Maru was by far a better player than TY throughout the entire tournament (if you recall he didn't drop a match until the finals), but we all know who won in the Bo7 when they finally played. Form fluctuates from series to series, but it's usually clear which player is objectively better. This is why every liquibet isn't a 50/50 split. One player is always the favorite and almost always for good reason. Past results are used to create a hypothetical model to judge players against each other. It oftentimes works because starcraft isn't as random as some people sometimes want you to believe. TY getting to the finals as well means he wasn't worse than Maru, he did exactly what he had to do. Win all the matches. And he won the last one as well. He was better. This is exactly where this bias comes in, the "eye test". If you don't win your games this eye test means nothing, if you win your games it doesn't matter how close it was. Korean tournaments give us the context. The competition is consistent, every notable korean player participates in every single tournament. That is the reason we are confident that each GSL is worth about the same. Not because of the name of the tournament (as olli implied) but because the lvl of competition is fairly consistent (neglecting different eras with different players, retirements, etc) | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1552 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: Past results are used to create a hypothetical model to judge players against each other. It oftentimes works because starcraft isn't as random as some people sometimes want you to believe. TY getting to the finals as well means he wasn't worse than Maru, he did exactly what he had to do. Win all the matches. And he won the last one as well. He was better. This is exactly where this bias comes in, the "eye test". If you don't win your games this eye test means nothing, if you win your games it doesn't matter how close it was. Korean tournaments give us the context. The competition is consistent, every notable korean player participates in every single tournament. That is the reason we are confident that each GSL is worth about the same. Not because of the name of the tournament (as olli implied) but because the lvl of competition is fairly consistent (neglecting different eras with different players, retirements, etc) Professional players who were at the event said Maru was better that weekend. But they don't know anything... | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15616 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:47 mizenhauer wrote: Winning one series does not make you a better player, it just means you played better that series. which means you are in a better form at that point. Sure, form flunctuates from series to series but that's also true for beating an on paper "better" player. He may play amazing all tournament, then choke in 1 series and it will be called an amazing accomplishment for the player who took him out despite it not being that hard. That's why my premise is that a player who beats another player is at that tournament better; because form is impossible to accurately measure. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:59 mizenhauer wrote: Professional players who were at the event said Maru was better that weekend. But they don't know anything... This is appeal to authority nothing more. As i said before this is basically a philosophical question. "Better" doesn't mean anything when the objective of starcraft is to win games/matches. That's it, nothing else. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 21:00 Charoisaur wrote: which means you are in a better form at that point. Sure, form flunctuates from series to series but that's also true for beating an on paper "better" player. He may play amazing all tournament, then choke in 1 series and it will be called an amazing accomplishment for the player who took him out despite it not being that hard. That's why my premise is that a player who beats another player is at that tournament better; because form is impossible to accurately measure. Like in theory it would be better to add as much context as theoretically possible. But it's simply impossible to have al the relevant data and apply it correctly. You would need the exact "elo" of each player in the matchup at that time. You would somehow need to be able to tell at what % of his max potential he is playing at in that match. You would need to think about matchup balance, map balance, the different styles of players and how it affects the match and a lot of other things. It's absurd to think that anybody can do that. I much rather assume that the game is balanced enough, the consistent competitive field makes sure players deserve the placement they get (on average) and thus basically only results matter. It's not perfect but at least it is consistent and i don't need to come up with completely subjective and arbitrary criteria. edit: i mean it would be somewhat possible to have at least the matchup elo for each match and thus judge every single path of each player. But that's also way more work than anyone has ever done and we don't even have a good enough elo system for that especially because of the fact that the tournament scene in sc2 is split and thus not every elo number means the same :/ | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
I don't think GOAT is all that difficult to establish. Settle criteria, apply them, see if someone sticks or not. You first need to define them, though. You can't just ad hoc rules that you like or which you an intuitive result. That only ends up feeding on your bias. For example, you could argue that the person with the most tournament wins is the GOAT. Easy enough to calculate if you know how to weigh tournaments. You could also argue that the most influential player, or the MVP of a team could be GOAT. These are the type of people that would consider Michael Jordan above Larry Bird and Kareem Abdul Jabbar in basketball. There are plenty other criteria to consider, and you can also mix and match if you can agree on a weighting procedure. I understand that writers don't want to do this, because it sucks creativity and subjectivity out of the equation. It's not as interesting nor is it liberating for personal development as a writer. But it's the only way to reach a conclusion that people are going to agree with. If you're wondering why TL news articles don't want to establish a GOAT, look no further. News articles will need to be written long after some criteria are met at some point. So you can't set the SC2 narrative in stone. But I'd venture to say that in people's minds, the narrative is set. SC2 is in its twilight years, and it's difficult to see anyone surpass Innovation by the end of it. Or Mvp, perhaps Life (if you disregard matchfixing, like some people ignore Mike Tyson's antics). Whichever way this goes in the end, the only way forward is through an objective, rather than a subjective conclusion. Everything else is going to be controversial and fleeting, to be forgotten and repeated over and over in useless internet arguments. | ||
AzAlexZ
Australia3302 Posts
Just for the sake of the argument, let's compare Mvp vs Inno: Mvp has: 3 GSL's, 1 GSL ST 1 WCS, 1 Blizzcon, 1 WEG, 1 MLG and 1 IEM Inno has: 3 GSL's, 1 GSL vs World, 1 SSL, 1 VSL 2 IEM's sure Mvp might have won more tournaments in total, but Innovation has more starlagues. Inno also has the best teamleague record of all time, he also won a tournament ever year since 2013 - 2017. Keep in mind, Mvp was strong in the pre-KeSPA era. Once we headed into 2013 where the KeSPA guys took over Mvp fell off (unfortunately mostly due to his injury, nothing to comment about that). heading into this era alongside HOTS, the best players were, Inno/Maru(/Taeja???) for T, Life/soO for Z, and a tug of war between Rain, sOs, herO, Classic, Zest, PartinG for P. Even in this era the people who stand out are Inno and Life and maybe sOs. once the KeSPA era ended aka last year, the scene took a drastic change. and INno emerged on the top in both HOTS and LOTV. Inno has dominated some parts of both era's he's been in and looked super scary, revitalizing mech and bringing P hellbat plays till the point where they needed heavy nerfs to compensate for it, I'd say Inno has surpassed Mvp a long time ago. | ||
ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On September 16 2017 20:53 pvsnp wrote: Well, at that point you are trying to factor in unquantifiable factors like how much each player "wants" to win a tournament. While that distinction is clear between online and offline tournaments, for instance, I don't know how you can really draw that distinction between GSL and Blizzcon. Sure, players probably "want" to win a Blizzcon more, but how large is that difference? And if you decide to consider factors like that, why not consider the factors of flying to the US, of practice partners available, of some player getting sick, or a thousand others? I prefer to stick to the (reasonably) quantifiable, objective measures, like time, player pool, and trophies. I'm not saying I value all these factors, I'm saying I value higher stakes the most. Stakes comes from higher prestige. Higher prestige means it's bigger tournament, bigger tournament means more accomplishing than lesser tournaments. | ||
Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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xelnaga_empire
613 Posts
Having said that, Innovation has had a stellar year this year. And the level of SC2 today with many of the top ProLeague players remaining in SC2 is harder than when MVP won his titles. If Innovation wins Blizzcon this year, I would say he is the GOAT in SC2 and has achieved more than MVP. But I think he's about on par with MVP right now. Honorable mentions of best SC2 players of all time also go towards sOs and Life. Great SC2 players, but not quite GOAT would be players like Taeja, Zest, Maru, SoO, Hero, etc. | ||
xelnaga_empire
613 Posts
On September 16 2017 21:36 AzAlexZ wrote: Keep in mind, Mvp was strong in the pre-KeSPA era. Once we headed into 2013 where the KeSPA guys took over Mvp fell off (unfortunately mostly due to his injury, nothing to comment about that). heading into this era alongside HOTS, the best players were, Inno/Maru(/Taeja???) for T, Life/soO for Z, and a tug of war between Rain, sOs, herO, Classic, Zest, PartinG for P. A few players were able to transition from pre-KESPA to post-KESPA quite well. Maru and Life did quite well after KESPA came over. Oddly enough, Byun was a late bloomer but he has been here pre-KESPA. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 16 2017 22:29 xelnaga_empire wrote: As an Innovation fan, I don't think he is GOAT yet. MVP had a shorter career span before his wrists gave out on him. But during MVP's short career span, he racked up around as many titles as Innovation. Innovation has had a longer career span in SC2, playing since 2012 when ProLeague switched over. Prior to this year, Innovation also had a few quiet years, where he was a top Terran player but he wasn't able to win too many Premier tournaments. Having said that, Innovation has had a stellar year this year. And the level of SC2 today with many of the top ProLeague players remaining in SC2 is harder than when MVP won his titles. If Innovation wins Blizzcon this year, I would say he is the GOAT in SC2 and has achieved more than MVP. But I think he's about on par with MVP right now. Honorable mentions of best SC2 players of all time also go towards sOs and Life. Great SC2 players, but not quite GOAT would be players like Taeja, Zest, Maru, SoO, Hero, etc. Mvp played in 14 premier tournaments in 2011. Innovation only had 9 so far this year. Mvp had the chance to win 7 starleagues that year, Inno had 5 this year. Most of Mvp's title were during Gomtvt, it's funny that people usually say Inno only wins when terran is strong. One could easily say that Mvp won most of it during terran being op as well. Just a few things to consider | ||
Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 22:07 ejozl wrote: I'm not saying I value all these factors, I'm saying I value higher stakes the most. Stakes comes from higher prestige. Higher prestige means it's bigger tournament, bigger tournament means more accomplishing than lesser tournaments. That makes sense. The question of course is whether stakes translates directly to skill, which you apparently agree with and I disagree with. | ||
ejozl
Denmark3169 Posts
On September 17 2017 02:58 pvsnp wrote: That makes sense. The question of course is whether stakes translates directly to skill, which you apparently agree with and I disagree with. Yep. I value a player's ability to play a best of series and ability to play under pressure very highly. That sOs series vs herO in IEM Katowice winner takes it all, is a very impressive feat to me. I would like to take the time to actually study it sometime. I tend to dislike players who play tournaments as if they're just ladder games, INnoVation used to fall into this catagory, but he's evolved a lot as of this year in that regard. Grats to him. | ||
harmonyxtc
3 Posts
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