EPTsOs vs INnoVation: Code S Grand Finals Preview - Page 2
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
People know my position on the GOAT discussion so i won't start it anew. I don't see how sOs wants to win 4 games here tbh, he might win one or two with some cheese but after that? I cannot see it. | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2223 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
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Blargh
United States2104 Posts
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RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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stilt
France2755 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3559 Posts
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Isualin
Germany1903 Posts
p.s: just looked it up, there are not many 4-0's, my memory failed me | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 04:43 Solar424 wrote: Innovation isn't an incredibly consistent player. If you look at his career in 6 month chunks he's incredibly consistent, but when you look at his career as a whole it's like a roller coaster. His run of GSL quarterfinals in 2012-2013 was impressive, but during his time on Acer he was average at best in individual leagues. His 2016 mirrored this: after looking unstoppable at the end of 2015 he dropped out in the Ro8 at Blizzcon and didn't win a single match in Starleagues in 2016 (he lost to Stork in Code A!) 2017 has been the most consistent year for Innovation thus far, but even then he's had some hiccups, like getting 3-0'd in the first round of Super Tournament. I can't help but feel the cycle will repeat itself, the question is whether it will happen at this finals or at Blizzcon. 2016 can't be included in that, Inno confirmed himself that his poor form was due to playing League (external factor). 2014 had a little thing called the blink era, and the WM nerf as well. Aside from that, I think his career's highs and lows aren't particularly unusual, nowhere near a "rollercoaster." Despite all the memes, Inno is only human, he has good days and bad days. On the whole, I would call him reasonably consistent based on the fact that he's managed to stay at or near the top of Korean SC2 for basically his entire career, but he has also choked too many times to be called "incredibly consistent." And being honest, Inno is frequently overhyped. While he certainly looks insanely dominant at times, making other top-tiers look like gold league players at one tournament doesn't mean that he will do the same at every tournament. But people still expect him to be invincible when he's at his peak, and call it choking when he bleeds. When you are repeatedly called the best player in the world (as Inno has been for all of 2017) the only way you can move is down. | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
Great write-up. Looking forward to an excellent finals!!! | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On September 16 2017 04:45 pvsnp wrote: 2016 can't be included in that, Inno confirmed himself that his poor form was due to playing League (external factor). 2014 had a little thing called the blink era, and the WM nerf as well. Aside from that, I think his career's highs and lows aren't particularly unusual, nowhere near a "rollercoaster." Despite all the memes, Inno is only human, he has good days and bad days. On the whole, I would call him reasonably consistent based on the fact that he's managed to stay at or near the top of Korean SC2 for basically his entire career, but he has also choked too many times to be called "incredibly consistent." And being honest, Inno is frequently overhyped. While he certainly looks insanely dominant at times, making other top-tiers look like gold league players at one tournament doesn't mean that he will do the same at every tournament. But people still expect him to be invincible when he's at his peak, and call it choking when he bleeds. When you are repeatedly called the best player in the world (as Inno has been for all of 2017) the only way you can move is down. INnoVation playing League is like the least external factor I've ever heard of. Besides, you're making that argument for INnoVation as if demotivation or distractions didn't factor into the poor form of every other player. This is why Mvp is the GOAT in my eyes and will remain so even if INnoVation wins this. He dropped off only when his body caved in - and then he still won a GSL, reached another finals and won a WCS. Not being able to feel your fingers - that's an external factor you can't control. Playing LoL is definitely not. INnoVation has dropped off the map at multiple points of his career, but people forget all about it because he really dominates when he's in form. Fact is that his peak in 2013 lasted for 3 months. His time on Acer was largely mediocre. He came back in 2014 and won a GSL in which the strongest two players in the tournament (Zest and Rain) were knocked out in the other bracket and he got to face soO in the finals. But it's a GSL, fair enough. He was quite good at the time. He was very good in late 2015 when the metagame heavily favored his style of play and no Zergs had an answer to mech. He then did nothing at all in 2016. Playing LoL is not an excuse for poor performances, if anything that should be held against him, not used as an excuse. People talk of INnoVation as this consistent player when he's never actually been that. He has longevity, not consistency. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:03 Olli wrote: INnoVation playing League is like the least external factor I've ever heard of. Besides, you're making that argument for INnoVation as if demotivation or distractions didn't factor into the poor form of every other player. This is why Mvp is the GOAT in my eyes and will remain so even if INnoVation wins this. He dropped off only when his body caved in - and then he still won a GSL, reached another finals and won a WCS. Not being able to feel your fingers - that's an external factor you can't control. Playing LoL is definitely not. INnoVation has dropped off the map at multiple points of his career, but people forget all about it because he really dominates when he's in form. Fact is that his peak in 2013 lasted for 3 months. His time on Acer was largely mediocre. He came back in 2014 and won a GSL in which the strongest two players in the tournament (Zest and Rain) were knocked out in the other bracket and he got to face soO in the finals. But it's a GSL, fair enough. He was quite good at the time. He was very good in late 2015 when the metagame heavily favored his style of play and no Zergs had an answer to mech. He then did nothing at all in 2016. Playing LoL is not an excuse for poor performances, if anything that should be held against him, not used as an excuse. People talk of INnoVation as this consistent player when he's never actually been that. He has longevity, not consistency. An external factor in terms of evaluating his consistency. League has nothing to do with SC2, nothing to do with Inno's ability to adapt to the current meta or devise builds or, in short, remain consistent within the game. You can't use League as a justification for saying "Inno is inconsistent" because it's external to SC2, that's what I meant by "external factor." I can understand how somebody might think I meant "external factor" in terms of motivation. Playing League can be held against him on a personal level, if you so choose, but not on the skill level. Mvp being injured is definitely an external factor as well. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what would have or could have happened to his career if he wasn't. And while it certainly earns him my sympathy, he doesn't get any artificial bonuses to his skill level simply because he was injured. GOAT is a measurement of skill (or rather, a measurement of achievements that theoretically reflect skill). Inno has obviously peaked and slumped, but I don't know if I would say he's ever "dropped off the map" aside from the aforementioned 2016. Regarding his GSL victories, it's true that Inno won two trophies against the Kongs soO and ByuL. It's also true that Mvp won two of his trophies against an older Kong MKP. But as you said, it's a GSL, fair enough, and Mvp was also quite good at the time. Inno was good in late 2015, true enough. But the myth that no Zerg had an answer to mech is exactly that: a myth. Sure, turtle mech was a strong style, but it wasn't unbeatable by any means. Gumiho was commonly cited alongside Inno as the best mech player, and ByuL dominated him 3-0 in the Ro8. ByuL also beat Inno 3-2 in SSL. In the GSL finals, Inno meched twice, and went 1-1. A Kong lost 1 game out of 6 to the style in the finals. Not exactly the hallmark of invincibility. Many Zergs lost to mech, sure, but there most certainly existed a viable answer and counter. Longevity, consistency, Inno has both. It's fair to say he has more longevity than consistency, but he is hardly Dear. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1970 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:31 pvsnp wrote: An external factor in terms of evaluating his consistency. League has nothing to do with SC2, nothing to do with Inno's ability to adapt to the current meta or devise builds or, in short, remain consistent within the game. You can't use League as a justification for saying "Inno is inconsistent" because it's external to SC2, that's what I meant by "external factor." I can understand how somebody might think I meant "external factor" in terms of motivation. Playing League can be held against him on a personal level, if you so choose, but not on the skill level. Mvp being injured is definitely an external factor as well. Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing what would have or could have happened to his career if he wasn't. And while it certainly earns him my sympathy, he doesn't get any artificial bonuses to his skill level simply because he was injured. GOAT is a measurement of skill (or rather, a measurement of achievements that theoretically reflect skill). Inno has obviously peaked and slumped, but I don't know if I would say he's ever "dropped off the map" aside from the aforementioned 2016. Regarding his GSL victories, it's true that Inno won two trophies against the Kongs soO and ByuL. It's also true that Mvp won two of his trophies against an older Kong MKP. But as you said, it's a GSL, fair enough, and Mvp was also quite good at the time. Inno was good in late 2015, true enough. But the myth that no Zerg had an answer to mech is exactly that: a myth. Sure, turtle mech was a strong style, but it wasn't unbeatable by any means. Gumiho was commonly cited alongside Inno as the best mech player, and ByuL dominated him 3-0 in the Ro8. ByuL also beat Inno 3-2 in SSL. In the GSL finals, Inno meched twice, and went 1-1. Many Zergs lost to mech, sure, but there most certainly existed a viable answer and counter. Longevity, consistency, Inno has both. Only Rogue and ByuL could beat mech with any regularity. In the end, the only game INnoVation lost with mech in the finals was the result of him forgetting an upgrade. I think given time Zergs would have figured out how to beat mech, but at that moment in time it was as close to unbeatable as any comp in SC 2 history barring BL/Infestor and maybe Blink and INnoVation was one of the primary abusers. That's not so say he didn't have exceptional skill with bio, but trying to say mech was anywhere close to a level playing field or even only "slightly Terran favored" is hogwash. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:36 mizenhauer wrote: Only Rogue and ByuL could beat mech with any regularity. In the end, the only game INnoVation lost with mech in the finals was the result of him forgetting an upgrade. I think given time Zergs would have figured out how to beat mech, but at that moment in time it was as close to unbeatable as any comp in SC 2 history barring BL/Infestor and maybe Blink and INnoVation was one of the primary abusers. That's not so say he didn't have exceptional skill with bio, but trying to say mech was anywhere close to a level playing field or even only "slightly Terran favored" is hogwash. Oh it was Terran-favored for sure. How significantly is arguable. But my point was that the idea of turtle mech being some invincible freewin style is just a myth, it lost plenty of games. It's biggest actual advantage was that it allowed players to reverse the traditional Terran-aggressor role in TvZ, and put the onus on Zerg (with its relatively weaker offensive options) to win the game on a timer. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
 I guess only players who never were on top, so players who are consistently mediocre? | ||
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PuddleZerg
United States82 Posts
On September 15 2017 22:19 Golgotha wrote: I'm in Korea and I really want to see this. does it cost a lot to go? where is the location? The information is literally on the front page of TL. | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On September 16 2017 05:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: I just wanna ask which player would be considered "consistent" by that standard olli I guess only players who never were on top, so players who are consistently mediocre? Mvp was very consistent. And come on, there are players who never dropped off as hard as INnoVation did. Many of them in fact. You can't do nothing for a whole year and be called consistent. And that's not counting his mediocre time on Acer. As for external factors, there's no world in which a professional SC2 player neglecting his practice to play another game is an external factor or can be treated as such. Of course it impacts his ability to play properly, make decisions, pick proper builds and prepare for matches. It's silly to think otherwise. If you're not putting in proper practice and preparation, your play will suffer. Besides, nobody ever makes that excuse for anyone else. sOs was supposedly lazy and didn't practice much, does that count as an external factor too? It's part of the player and therefore not external. So is INnoVation getting distracted by LoL. Now an external factor that can be talked about as such is something you can't control that impacts your ability to play. Such as an injury, especially the kind Mvp had. Or KT players moving out of their practice environment, real life events, etc. The thing people don't understand is that the GOAT is the greatest of all time, not the raw best ever. And in that context Mvp's injury is absolutely relevant because it made what he did a million times more impressive. How he pressed on through that and did what he did is nothing but great. Especially when you consider that all it supposedly took for INnoVation to drop off for a whole year was League of Legends. | ||
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